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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:07 PM
Original message
Poll question: which party is more divided on immigration?
:shrug:
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monktonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Dems
just take a look around DU
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I don't know 4437 is fuckin divisive. Not much dem support for 4437
imho. Peace and low stress...
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MrTriumph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Working Dem.s want a wall just like working Republicans
x
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I'm a Working Dem, and I Don't Want any "Berlin Wall"
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MrTriumph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. The Berlin Wall kept people IN, not people OUT.
Big difference.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Can You Be So Sure It Might Not Serve The Same Function …
Edited on Sun Apr-02-06 03:54 PM by AndyTiedye
…as the Berlin Wall once those facilities that Halliburton is building are open for business?
:scared:



I don't like walls.

They way to keep labor from getting screwed is to ENFORCE THE LABOR LAWS!
Paying sub-minimum wage is a crime no matter who the employee is. Bust them for that!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x814328#815084
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MrTriumph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The point is the Berlin Wall kept people in. Stay on subject, please
x
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. My Main Point is that We Should Enforce the LABOR Laws
They hire illegals because they can pay them illegally-low wages and pay them under the table.
They don't pay Social Security taxes for their employees.
Evading taxes and violating labor laws and safety regulations are more serious offences than hiring undocumented workers,
and the government should focus its efforts there.
That would be in the best Democratic tradition.

The fact that allowing this regime to build walls along the border makes me think I'm living in East Berlin is a side point, but not a trivial one.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. There May Be More Jobs in Mexico Than Here Soon Anyway
Mexico has more oil that we do.
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MrTriumph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Securing the border makes all enforcement easier
x
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Doesn't Do Squat For Enforcing Labor Code Violations
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MrTriumph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Yes, it does. Am. laborers are more likely to oppose abuse
x
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Time for both parties to confront businesses hiring undocumented workers
:kick:

and quit pretending that simple solution is not the best one. Government looks the other way meanwhile pretending that employers have to check immigration status for hire.

This issue is being used as a distraction just like it was in CA in the 90's when NAFTA got shoved through.

Notice how globalization and outsourcing/offshoring/China was at the top of the news cycle and BOOM "SCARY BROWN PEOPLE ARE TAKING YOUR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!"

:evilfrown:
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Bust Them for Violating Labor Laws, Not for Undocumented Workers
It is not up to employers to do the job of the Border Patrol.

They are supposed to comply with LABOR LAWS, such as mimumum
wage, OSHA, paying into Social Security, and all that.
Those who hire undocumented workers do so because they can
get away with violating these laws with those workers.

THAT is the problem. Allowing employers to pay sub-mimimum
wages drives all wages down. Allowing them not to pay into
Social Security is draining Social Security.

Paying workers "under the table" is the real problem.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. California instituted laws to check legal status upon employment
You're right, the businesses are violating labor laws. And labor advocates tell us that "illegals" ARE paying into Social Security (how does that work?)

You've stated this well. However, the stumbling block for "both" parties is the perception of many voters that those who are not here legally should not have benifits or privileges that citizens receive-- and those folks can't understand that simple disconnect.

The proposal in CA for driver's licenses for "illegals" is a good example. To a good portion of the public, that just sounds :crazy:

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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Undocumented Workers May Have SS Taken Out, But...
…does that money, or the employers' share, actually get paid to the government, or is
the employer just pocketing the money and effectively paying his workers even less?

Doesn't all that Social Security paperwork require a Social Security number?

To deny them drivers licenses just means we have a bunch of unlicensed drivers on
our roads. They may not be familiar with the traffic laws or even how to operate
a motor vehicle safely (never having been tested on any of this).

To deny them health care just means that they'll be going around (and working)
while sick in many cases, and possibly making other people sick.
(Yes, this is also an argument for universal health care).
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. So the onus is on businesses to comply with the laws we have
and on government to enforce them.

"Doesn't all that Social Security paperwork require a Social Security number?" And there you have an example of the point where the system breaks down and where the focus COULD be on enforcing the laws.

How do the big businesses get away with paying people "under the table"?

"To deny them drivers licenses just means we have a bunch of unlicensed drivers on
our roads. They may not be familiar with the traffic laws or even how to operate
a motor vehicle safely (never having been tested on any of this).
To deny them health care just means that they'll be going around (and working)
while sick in many cases, and possibly making other people sick.
(Yes, this is also an argument for universal health care)."

Both of these are examples of the cart-before-the-horse logic that will not fly with many law-abiding voters in both parties.

If folks are "illegals" why would they be given legal drivers licenses? :crazy: All the logic (which is never actually defined) hinges on "this is how it is-- the system doesn't work-- BIG business can't continue without throwing the rules out the window-- so deal with it."

This is another opportunity to focus on the stranglehold that corporations have on this country, which the Democrats will certainly avoid. If businesses are dependent on illegal immigration to continue as they are, MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

:bounce:

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melissinha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
5. My vote is the GOP
Edited on Sat Apr-01-06 12:24 PM by melissinha
Though Dems are divided too. I think that Randi and Thom propose a good Democratic position.... It is my opinion that we just take the lead from Cesar Chavez.... Too bad the kids marching last week didn't know his real position.... Which was pro-labor anti illigal immigrant, but we should definitely make room for long time illegals who are in a corporate pergatory....

We really need a good labor proposition that also appeals to legal immigrants and all working people which really exposes the corporate hold on legal labor....
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. We need a consistent pro-labor position
oppose the exploitation of illegal immigrants and protect the standard of living of all workers
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melissinha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Bingo!
This would be a good voter friendly position... besides being the right thing and the sbsolutely most important thing to do to restore the country.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Not a partisan issue
The entire country is divided. No easy answers. Anyone who claims to have one is full of shit.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Charge those businesses that hire undocumented workers
with breaking the law.

Not "easy" but definitely a direct way of addressing the problem.

Distracting the public and demonizing Mexicans and NOT focusing on corporations and businesses that break existing laws is what's REALLY "full of shit."

:hi:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. You needed a third category. "Both parties are equally divided".
That's the one I would have chosen.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. most du'ers oppose 4437
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
10. It's a topic about which reasonable people can disagree
and we're the reasonable people, so....
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. The 'division' is proportional to the amount of corporatism in the party.
:shrug: Just a guess. Another reason I'm a non-partisan independent.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I didn't know that
I always thought that you were a dem
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. (chuckle) Considering some of the 'Dem' opinions I see around here
... I don't wonder why. :evilgrin:

I'm a liberal (small-'d') democrat by study, learning, ethics, and experience, not by the adoption of any membership dogma. I "came of age" politically when the Democratic Party included Dixiecrats (later called Southern Democrats) and could not regard myself a "bird of a feather." As a (small-'d') democrat, I don't believe the majority party has any license to impose its minority views on the majority of Americans. This is what Junior and the Banana Republicans are doing. It's an evil inherent in partisanship, imho, which, if not blind, is most often at least myopic.

In complete compliance with DU's charter, I do not and will not voice support for candidates opposing a Democrat in any race, even if I might personally have such a preference. Nor have I or will I do so in some surreptitious way. It ain't my style and it ain't my ethics. Nonetheless, I doubt I'd ever support someone like Ben Nelson. He's about 80% contrary to everything I favor.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. All It Can Do Is Hurt The Republicans
How many of those minutemen down on the border this weeked do you figure are card-carrying Democrats?
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. very divided
:shrug:
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. The best post about this issue on DU.
Illegal Immigration

*The following was posted by pat_k.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:
Going after predatory employers.
Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:
Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).
Criminalize predatory employment practices.
Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.
Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.
Increase resources and create special units as required
Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.”

Making implicit costs explicit

“The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)”

Radically changing the rules of the game

“If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.”

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

“There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.”

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

“Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.”

Posted by: pat_k
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. thanks for the read
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OnceUponTimeOnTheNet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-01-06 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
25. 16 to 16 ~ The Divided poll is Divided.
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billybreathes71 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
27. A Damn Good Case of the Mexicali Blues...
Illegal immigrants pose perhaps the most puzzling political questions today. What are we as a society supposed to do about these people who have entered America illegally? This question tears me up inside. Part of me thinks that they broke the law and should be deported immediately. Another part of me thinks that if I was a Mexican who couldn't afford to feed his family because the laisse-faire capitalism that exists there prevents the establishment of a middle class and because I have no prospects for employment and because there are very few social programs in Mexico to help the poor then I would make a run for the border just like the millions of others that have already done so. Loitering outside of a Home Depot in San Diego or El Paso looking for a days work beats the hell out of watching my kids pick through trash cans for food on the other side of the border.

I think the real crime taking place here isn't being perpetrated by these poor Mexicans who are swimming across the Rio Grande, or the Asians who are being shipped here in cargo containers. I think the real criminals are the Americans that hire these people and pay them next to nothing to do jobs that other Americans supposedly wouldn't do. Well other Americans wouldn't do these landscaping jobs, these cleaning service jobs, they wouldn't pick fruit and vegetables....it's true, they wouldn't, at least not for the $2-$3 an hour that the illegals are getting paid, they might for a few bucks more. What about the union construction worker who makes $15 an hour in Albuquerque? He's getting screwed because his scumbag boss is laying him off and hiring 3 illegal workers in his place. The illegal immigrants are getting screwed because they're being exploited by these greedy bastards. They have no benefits other than their low pay. Alas, I'm sure it's better being poor in Brownsville than it is in Tijuana.

President Bush wants to allow Mexicans to come here as "guest workers." These guest workers would have no path to permanent residency or citizenship, and their employers would not be obliged to pay them minimum wage. Ok, so the price of grapes and strawberries stay low if this program passes through Congress, but where does this guest worker program go next? Could it be possible that computer technicians will be imported from India to temporarily work for Microsoft in Seattle and be paid $8 an hour? Might there be temporary workers from Vietnam assembling Chevys in Michigan for $5.15 an hour. Multinational companies have the most to gain here; they'd import cheap labor, eliminate the cost of fringe benefits and lay Americans off. This would be free trade run amok. That's what I think this whole illegal immigrant debate is about. It's about lowering wages for American workers, it's about Bush and his cronies fulfilling their dream of eliminating the middle class.

We should do what we've been doing about illegal immigration up until this point, try half-heartedly to enforce the laws we already have. I beleive that any other solution will lead to the further decline and downfall of the American middle class. I don't want to lose my job to a guest worker, I don't want to pay double or triple for my wine and strawberries, and I definitely don't want to look a Mexican man, a fellow human being, and a fellow father in the eye and tell him that he has to go back to Mexico and send his kids back to the dumpsters to find food.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
34. there are at least some democrats who want to protect jobs
Edited on Sun Apr-02-06 07:18 PM by pitohui
all in GOP heirarchy 1) want slaves working for nothing and 2) would be delighted to see the hispanic immigrant pitted against the african american in a cage match since they hate blacks and their dearest dream is to destroy any hope they ever have of improving themselves

it don't matter what redneck GOPer on the ground thinks because they just vote abortion anyway and will vote against their pocket every time

so i conclude the GOP as a matter of practical effect on votes is less divided on the matter of illegal immigration

the GOP wants it, and they have persuaded the ignorant and the people who respond to cheap sayings on statues that slave immigrant labor is a fine thing too, so we are going to see the continued destruction of our wages and our job opportunities

i would like to be proved wrong but nothing on DU has given me any hope -- and the "neutral" sites and real life is even worse, people flat out tell you they want illegals because they're cheaper and "blacks don't work," of course since we are progressives on this site people have all kinds of high falutin excuses such as 100 year poems as an excuse for pushing for illegal below-market cheap and slave labor

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-02-06 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
36. Definitely the GOP - Neocons/corporatists vs. racists/fundies
We naturally disagree, so it isn't as big of a deal.

When repukes disagree they EAT EACH OTHER! :D


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