Black Males are only group hurt by illegal immigration. RW should love it

[Sensitivity]

Recently released study of labor market trends show that Black males in the U.S.
are the only group that has suffered adversely from the expansion of the mexican immigrant
population even during the boom years of the 90's. The impacts are especially felt in the
contruction industry. Other socio-ethnic groups tend to gain some benefits.

Sadly, I suspect that the Republican base would rally around the Bush amnesty program and
warm to illegal immigration if they understood this.

[fortyfeetunder]

1. Can you show a link to this study?

This would be worth looking at the results...

[Sensitivity]

4. Just online summary of book

Just the summary, but detailed statistics shows sad correlations with growth of migrant hispanic
labor.

http://www.urban.org/pubs/blackmales/preface.html

Similar results were shown in prev analytic work partially published in Book "Faded Dreams" by
Martin Carnoy of Stanford University.

[MrTriumph]

2. It is more than black males. All Americans suffer depressed wages

What's so hard to understand? Excess labor increases supply and drives down wages.

Instead of John Edwards advocating an expensive public works project, a border fence would be far cheaper and dry up the excess labor.

[DefenseLawyer]

11. It is not excess labor, it is cheap labor

Yes the hiring of illegal immigrants drives down wages, but it isn't at all because an influx of immigrants create an an over supply of workers. The hiring of illegal immigrants drives down wages because illegal immigrants are more easily exploited and can be hired at a very low wage.

[MrTriumph]

15. Oh, so 12 million extra works don't create an over supply?

Get real.

Yes, illegals are exploited. I agree that's bad. But just imagine, Texas lawyer, that 12 million new lawyers came to America. If you think you'd keep your rates up, you are mistaken.

[DefenseLawyer]

17. In a workforce of 150 million

not really. The supply of labor varies greatly in different regions of the country based on lots of factors. Sure the number of illegal immigrants would be one factor having an impact on the labor supply. However, I would venture a guess that wages paid to undocumented workers in Florida with 3% unemployment isn't much higher than those paid in Mississippi where unemployment is 8%.

[MrTriumph]

18. They don't compete against all 150 million, it is at the low end wages

Illegals are not competing against lawyers, part of the 12 million. They are competing with Americans who are in low wage jobs for those low wage jobs.

BTW. why do you think obtaining a law license is so restrictive? It keeps down the number of lawyers and keeps your rates high. The laws are written by lawyers the dominant profession in the legislature, lawyers, to protect lawyers.

[DefenseLawyer]

19. I don't disagree

that illegal immigrants are competing with Americans for low wage jobs. Where I take issue is with your conclusion that the extremely low wages undocumented workers receive is primarily based on their having created an excess supply of labor. Companies can pay undocumented workers extremely low wages because whatever they pay those workers in this country, it is almost always more than the workers were making in Mexico. They are desperate for work. Combine this with the fact that, being here illegally, they have no leverage with which to complain about working conditions and violations of our labor laws, and it becomes very attractive for industries in need of unskilled labor to hire undocumented workers. You will find undocumented workers being hired at extremely low wages in every part of the country regardless of the overall supply of labor. So while they are in a very general sense competing with Americans for jobs, the competition is rigged. If a company moves a plant to Mexico and replaces American workers making $12 dollars an hour with workers making $1 an hour, the disparity in wages is not based on there being a greater supply of labor in Mexico.

[MrTriumph]

20. Agreed- But in the US, illegal labor does create an oversupply.

Look, I am no lawyer (my wife is), but I do know what happens in the construction business everyday here in Texas. If a contractor is displeased with a low to medium skilled worker, the difficulty of replacing that working is not a concern. He or she is out the door. There are plenty available.

There is no proof that granting illegals legal status will drive up wages if the supply remains the same.

I might note that in 20 years, the labor to have sheetrock hung, tile floors laid or roofing installed has stayed the same. All are trades that illegals have negatively impacted. If you calculate in inflation, the labor prices has actually fallen substantially. And this has been true even for the last 15 years of record construction activity.

[msgadget]

3. Uhhhh...no

That's quite bogus unless every janitorial, food service, farm, landcape and construction worker is and was black. I agree that the low-end jobs were disproportionately impacted but, nope, blacks weren't the ONLY group affected. Who published this study?

[Cobalt Violet]

5. About the editor.

http://www.urban.org/pubs/blackmales/editor.html


Ronald B. Mincy is the Maurice V. Russell Professor of Social Policy and Social Work Practice at the School of Social Work, Columbia University, where he teaches graduate courses on social welfare policy, program evaluation, and microeconomics. Dr. Mincy is a co-principal investigator for the Fragile Families and Child Well-being Survey, a birth cohort study of children born to unmarried parents that is nationally representative of births in large cities. He has published widely about the effects of income security policy on child and family poverty, family formation, and child well-being; responsible fatherhood; the urban underclass; and urban poverty.

[msgadget]

9. Thank you! I read all the links and didn't see 'only'

and that's the phrasing I disagreed with. I see much to agree with regarding workforce development but have no hope policy will be implemented to address it under this administration or even the next. '08 candidates are saying higher education will cure the problem and some even have plans that amount to more (just different) corporate welfare but I haven't read about any social programs. People living in pockets of poverty face more barriers to prosperity than can be understood by those who'd say to them, 'just get a job, stop having babies, give up crime' because it's easier to pass judgement, I guess. Conservatives will indeed find the whole notion of targeting a group for aid repugnant (especially if the guest worker program is implemented) so I can't see an '08 candidate proposing such (and winning).

[Sensitivity]

12. There are many individual gains and losses, but a massive labor market

trend has been in place for the last 4 decades involving the growth of the latino workforce,
and very large studies have indicated the positive and negative impacts. The summary results
are generally a wash for all socio-ethnic groups except black males in the workforce.
This is not a new finding, just that a recent study has affirmed the pattern at a time when
we are engaged in an immigration debate.

The Stanford study covered data across 4 decades.

[msgadget]

13. Yep

but black un- and underemployed males representing a proportionately larger percentage of their group does not translate to them being the only group needing attention. That's a political non-starter even if there's truth in it. Pockets of poverty are the problem, imo. When you have large groups of unemployed people living just outside the mainstream this is the result. (Okay, here we go) And, it's my longstanding opinion that welfare and housing projects created many of these pockets and the resultant inability of people living therein to prosper in great numbers. What the hell were they thinking to group underachieving people together in huge communities?? Opportunities to get out weren't and aren't exactly rampant. Combine these conditions with an influx of cheap labor and here we are. I don't disagree with any of this and I pointed out the 'only' not to be nit-picky but because it invites a certain element to just shake their heads and ignore the issue altogether. The issues of poverty and disenfranchisement must be inclusive to gain traction.

[Sensitivity]

14. Agree re political position needed to move issues of impact on poor

Just pointing out the irony: RW xenophobes attacking mexican migration most helps
folks they don't really want to help.

[msgadget]

16. Duh, what's wrong with me!

I'm so dim... :blush:

[Sensitivity]

6. Individual experience does not discount group effects. Economic

trends and impacts is the subject not personal tragedies

[msgadget]

10. I agree with you but there was no 'only' in the book excerpt,

that was my only issue. I read phrases like, "...less educated young black men with low earnings were significantly less likely to receive job services than other less-educated young workers with low earnings." See my reply above.

Great topic, thanks Sensitivity.

[stevietheman]

7. In my estimation, Republicans have been trying to find every....

legal way imaginable to undermine black people ever since the voting rights and civil rights acts passed in the 60's. Anyone ever wonder why the war on drugs was really pushed hard starting in the early 70's? Think about it.

[ingac70]

8. I'm loving this whole thing!!!!!!!

Finally, cracks in the GOP marriage of rednecks and corporate whores.

The RW corporate whores know their little plan will drive down the standard of living, and the rednecks are just starting to figure out they have been duped with silly diversions...

I wonder how much longer the corporate whores can distract them?

"Hey, Bubba! Look over there, two gay dudes are getting married!"

[billybreathes71]

21. A Damn Good Case of The Mexicali Blues...

Illegal immigrants pose perhaps the most puzzling political questions today. What are we as a society supposed to do about these people who have entered America illegally? This question tears me up inside. Part of me thinks that they broke the law and should be deported immediately. Another part of me thinks that if I was a Mexican who couldn't afford to feed his family because the laisse-faire capitalism that exists there prevents the establishment of a middle class and because I have no prospects for employment and because there are very few social programs in Mexico to help the poor then I would make a run for the border just like the millions of others that have already done so. Loitering outside of a Home Depot in San Diego or El Paso looking for a days work beats the hell out of watching my kids pick through trash cans for food on the other side of the border.

I think the real crime taking place here isn't being perpetrated by these poor Mexicans who are swimming across the Rio Grande, or the Asians who are being shipped here in cargo containers. I think the real criminals are the Americans that hire these people and pay them next to nothing to do jobs that other Americans supposedly wouldn't do. Well other Americans wouldn't do these landscaping jobs, these cleaning service jobs, they wouldn't pick fruit and vegetables....it's true, they wouldn't, at least not for the $2-$3 an hour that the illegals are getting paid, they might for a few bucks more. What about the union construction worker who makes $15 an hour in Albuquerque? He's getting screwed because his scumbag boss is laying him off and hiring 3 illegal workers in his place. The illegal immigrants are getting screwed because they're being exploited by these greedy bastards. They have no benefits other than their low pay. Alas, I'm sure it's better being poor in Brownsville than it is in Tijuana.

President Bush wants to allow Mexicans to come here as "guest workers." These guest workers would have no path to permanent residency or citizenship, and their employers would not be obliged to pay them minimum wage. Ok, so the price of grapes and strawberries stay low if this program passes through Congress, but where does this guest worker program go next? Could it be possible that computer technicians will be imported from India to temporarily work for Microsoft in Seattle and be paid $8 an hour? Might there be temporary workers from Vietnam assembling Chevys in Michigan for $5.15 an hour. Multinational companies have the most to gain here; they'd import cheap labor, eliminate the cost of fringe benefits and lay Americans off. This would be free trade run amok. That's what I think this whole illegal immigrant debate is about. It's about lowering wages for American workers, it's about Bush and his cronies fulfilling their dream of eliminating the middle class.

We should do what we've been doing about illegal immigration up until this point, try half-heartedly to enforce the laws we already have. I beleive that any other solution will lead to the further decline and downfall of the American middle class. I don't want to lose my job to a guest worker, I don't want to pay double or triple for my wine and strawberries, and I definitely don't want to look a Mexican man, a fellow human being, and a fellow father in the eye and tell him that he has to go back to Mexico and send his kids back to the dumpsters to find food.

[KittyWampus]

22. Lord,I thought about posting this but couldn't stomach it, I already hold

a few opinions that've probably put me on a number of ignore lists.

Paul Krugman and the facts bascially agree with you, though Thread Title should read "one group largely effected by" and not "only group effected by". :)