Think through your position on illegal immigration...

[converted_democrat]

I've heard both sides of the debate, but I don't really think some people are thinking their positions through..

I own my own business.. Right now I pay between 15.00 and 45.00 an hour, plus benefits depending on several different factors.. If the guest worker program goes through, I will be forced into two choices to maintain a competitive edge in my industry.. (electrical
remodel, heat, air, and design..) I will either have to slash my current employees wages dramatically and get rid of all benefits, or I will have to hire guest workers at little more than minimum wage. (A little over 6.00 an hour) I don't relish either of the two choices, but in order for my business to survive I'll have to do one or the other. Most of my competition already uses illegal labor, and I know that they will drop their remaining workforce that makes more than minimum wage. I am already feeling the sting in my bottom line, and I'm having to get creative (new products and services) to make up the difference.. If all of my competition goes to guest workers for their labor, no amount of creativity on my part will keep me competitive. I would never use illegal labor, but if illegal became legal, I would have to use the same tactics to remain competitive in my market. Most business owners I know are salivating at the idea of a guest worker program.. Instead of paying current rates, they will be able to hire at minimum wage, and offer no benefits.. I am one business owner, how many others will be forced to make the decisions that I will have to make?

I don't like the idea of either of the choices I'm faced with, but I don't want to lose a business I've worked hard to build and maintain. All I'm asking is that you think your position through..

[Cleita]

1. How professional and what kind of education or training in

skills do your workers have to have? Considering most of the undocumented, hispanic immigrants quit school in the sixth grade, if this is the case, I don't think you have anything to worry about. It's the blue collar jobs that are in jeopardy. You may have a foreign professional, including Mexicans, apply for a job and most likely this person will have papers and will expect the same wages your other workers do.

Somewhere along the line in the Reagan/Bush years a regulation got dropped that required contractors to hire union labor. If they were still required to, then the immigrants could be allowed to join the union, There is no law against it. However, apparently it seems that contractors can now hire cheap non-union labor.

So how many of your workers are unskilled?

[converted_democrat]

4. I have a mix of both.. I have "skilled" workers, over seeing the

labor of the "unskilled", and I have office personal that could go either way.. (Doesn't take much skill to answer the phone and schedule new appointments.)

[Cleita]

6. Your office help has to be able to read and write in English.

Most of the illegal immigrants only have a sixth grade education and it's not in English. They usually have to quit school to go to work to help the family out. I think your office staff is safe.

If our government does the right thing about this and makes employers pay fines for hiring illegals it will go a long way to solving your problem.

[converted_democrat]

9. I think you hit the nail on the head..

"If our government does the right thing about this and makes employers pay fines for hiring illegals it will go a long way to solving your problem."

You get it..

Oh, and we do need Spanish speakers in our office, we've actually lost out on business because we have no one that speaks it fluently.. (Either way the gov. goes I will still need Spanish speakers..)

[Cleita]

14. Yes, but you need those who speak both languages.

And those office clerks most likely will be native born Americans of hispanic ethnicity. I worked in the restaurant business a lot as a payroll bookkeeper because they needed someone who could communicate with the non-English speaking workers about problems with their paychecks.

[Zookeeper]

26. Have you noticed that neither the Rethugs or Democrats...

are talking about making employers pay fines? This is making me crazy; I listen to them thinking that they are ignoring the elephant in the middle of the room. It should be #1 in any discussion of illegal immigration.

[converted_democrat]

27. In my opinion, it just confirms who is actually in control of this

country.. Big business is running the show.. This is a wet dream for big business..

[Cleita]

28. Eureka I found it. What the employer should be fined

if he hires illegals thanks to DefenseLawyer.

http://www.doleta.gov/dinap/bulletins/87-07.cfm

Second, the employment eligibility of each worker will have to be verified by the employer, using an INS-specified form, the I-9. Where the JTPA program serves as the employer, as is the case for many summer youth and work experience programs, the JTPA program would have to verify employment eligibility. Employers determined to have failed to comply with the employment verification requirements may be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $1,000 for each individual for whom such a violation occurred. Employers who knowingly hire unauthorized aliens may be subject to a fine of up to $2,000 for the first violation and up to $10,000 for subsequent violations.

So it looks like the law is being broken on both sides and the law is not being enforced.

[styersc]

2. You forget to factor in that when an illegal becomes legitimate

they will demand wages commensurate with skills and training rather then settle for wages that come from an employer who can exploit the illegal. Wages will rise for immigrants, who have been willing to work for less. Your competitors, who already use illegals will be forced to pay higher wages or they will lose their trained workforce.

[DefenseLawyer]

5. What makes you think they will enforce it?

Any more than they enforce the laws we have now against employing undocumented workers? I would predict that if the guest worker program works as you suggest and drives up wages, it will be dropped faster than you can say adios, or it will simply be ignored like the laws we have now.

[Cleita]

11. My opinion on that.

Law enforcement in states like mine, California, have tended not to enforce the immigration laws, and that includes the INS, because they view the laws as unjust. We have been working side by side with the immigrants for decades and don't seem them as criminals. About the only time they will conduct a raid and arrest undocumented workers is when there is political pressure to do so like now.

[DefenseLawyer]

15. I am not talking about enforcing them against the immigrants

I am talking about enforcing them against the employers. I don't see the undocumented workers as criminals either, but I certainly see the companies that exploit them and violate our labor laws in doing so as such.

[Cleita]

17. There are no laws about this that I can find.

I went googling around for some and all I could find was one with the IRS. That law stated that employers must deduct FICA and FIT from undocumented worker they hire. To not do so or to pay these people under the table would bring the IRS down on them with plenty of fines. But I couldn't find anything about them being fined for just hiring them.

Also, day workers don't count as they are considered contractors. There's all kinds of loopholes but no law stating that there is a big fine for hiring them. Since you're a lawyer, if there is such a law on the books please point me to it. I'm trying to write something about it but need to get my facts first.

[DefenseLawyer]

20. the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA)

made it unlawful for employers to knowingly hire undocumented workers and for workers to use false documents to obtain work.

[Cleita]

23. Thanks for the information. I will see what I can find on Google.

[converted_democrat]

7. I'm not so sure you're right. Minimum wage in this state is

higher than in the majority of the states. We have an excess of labor in this state, we have 100's of people calling for 2-3 openings at a time.. Unions are all but gone, so I don't see anything coming from that direction..

[Cleita]

8. "Unions are all but gone, so I don't see anything

coming from that direction"

There is your problem. As an employer you are supposed to be anti-union, but to be so really isn't in your best interests as you have already pointed out.

[sadiesworld]

12. In a very real sense our borders are picket lines.

It's not terribly surprising that corporate conservatives want to eliminate those borders, no?

[mzmolly]

3. Good points to consider. This is why people fear driving down wages.

Thanks for your input.

[sadiesworld]

10. Thank-you for making the choice to pay fair wages to US citizens.

:loveya:

(I don't use that smilie lightly--just so you know!)

[Cleita]

13. Everybody should get decent wages. We need to make the

employers do this for all their workers. Remember that there are many legal residents here who are not US citizens. They deserve a decent living wage too.

[sadiesworld]

16. If businesses had to pay "decent wages"...

illegal immigrants wouldn't be here. The fact that they can be exploited is their reason for being in the eyes of the elites.

I have no problem with legal residents and certainly didn't intentionally leave them out of the equation. I DO oppose a temporary worker program (legalization of substandard wages) though.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. "legalization of substandard wages"

Why would a guest worker program require "legalization of substandard wages"?

Suppose a guest worker program came with stricter enforcement of existing wage laws? What is your opposition then?

[sadiesworld]

22. If they have to pay wages dictated by supply and demand...

why the guest worker program? If we literally don't have the citizens neccessary to do the work, why wouldn't we increase legal immigration? There are plently of people waiting in line.

Look at how the Bracero program worked and why it was shut down by dems (when dems were dems). Take a look at how the H-1B temporary visa program works to drive wages down and deny opportunities to US citizens. For a REAL eye-opener, do some research on the guest worker programs in the UAE.

I'm amazed that, given the wage arbitration that has been going on for 25 years, you think there might be some well-intentioned motive and/or potentially positive outcome here.

[Radical Activist]

19. So the answer is to make them full citizens, not guest workers.

Then companies will be forced to pay better wages. They'll get to stay here and become part of the middle class instead of being used as indentured servants before being shipped back to Mexico.

[converted_democrat]

25. How would a flooded market make for better wages?

I'm not trying to be dense, but from a business prospective it makes no sense..

edit- to make clearer

on second edit-

"Then companies will be forced to pay better wages."

What makes you think it would force companies to pay better wages? I'm not following any of your logic..

[Radical Activist]

30. Illegal immigrants don't make minimum wage.

Their illegal status allows employers to pay them slave wages and violate other labor laws. If they were legal immigrants, companies would have to obey the minimum wage and other laws that apply to all other workers.

But yes, the Bush strategy is to flood the workforce with more cheap labor to keep wages low. That's the point of the guest worker program since the guest workers wouldn't have full rights as citizens and will never have the chance to move into the middle class.

[converted_democrat]

32. The people that I know that use them pay minimum wage, they just

pay them under the table.. That's the way it works with the people that I know that use them.. There are a different set of rules for farm help, but they are having a hard time filling those positions because they can find work that pays better (actual minimum wage, not that it's all that "better") elsewhere..

I still don't see how it will work out for better wages, as you claimed in the earlier post.. It fact, from a business perspective, I only seeing it make a situation worse.. Plus, you can't climb out of the middle class on minimum wage.. All I can see coming from this is serious wage depression..

[Dr. Jones]

21. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION FORCES DOWN SALARIES OF MIDDLE-CLASS

WORKERS!

Eventually you and I will be making minimum wage! Case in point - listen people, and listen good. This is going to resonate across America and pretty soon we'll all be in the damn soup and bread lines.

[Cleita]

24. Don't you have your own thread about this? n/t

[WCGreen]

29. I actually don't think it is going to resolve itself anytime soon...

But I do have a question....

The copntractors who are using illegals, do they come almost to your price and then undercut...

I ask this because it would be interesting to know if they are taking the difference in profits....

Just curious....

[converted_democrat]

33. They undercut me.. I run a pretty efficient ship, and I have no idea

how they can perform the same service with the same materials for the price.. As far as I can figure, the only place they can be getting me is labor.. They go just go a little cheaper than I will.. (That's assuming they aren't using sub- standard material, but I have a hard time believing they would do that because you can't really screw around and cheap out when it comes to this kind of stuff, especially electric.) I'm sure they are pocketing the difference.. I could do it too, but I get a bit of pride out of paying a decent wage, and seeing my employees happy.. They have a really high turnover rate, and I don't have to deal with that.. (Training newbies is a big expense.) Plus, I'm expanding into new services and new products (higher end specialty items) that carry a higher profit margin, so I have those two things going in my favor..

[billybreathes71]

31. A Damn Good Case of the Mexicali Blues

Illegal immigrants pose perhaps the most puzzling political questions today. What are we as a society supposed to do about these people who have entered America illegally? This question tears me up inside. Part of me thinks that they broke the law and should be deported immediately. Another part of me thinks that if I was a Mexican who couldn't afford to feed his family because the laisse-faire capitalism that exists there prevents the establishment of a middle class and because I have no prospects for employment and because there are very few social programs in Mexico to help the poor then I would make a run for the border just like the millions of others that have already done so. Loitering outside of a Home Depot in San Diego or El Paso looking for a days work beats the hell out of watching my kids pick through trash cans for food on the other side of the border.

I think the real crime taking place here isn't being perpetrated by these poor Mexicans who are swimming across the Rio Grande, or the Asians who are being shipped here in cargo containers. I think the real criminals are the Americans that hire these people and pay them next to nothing to do jobs that other Americans supposedly wouldn't do. Well other Americans wouldn't do these landscaping jobs, these cleaning service jobs, they wouldn't pick fruit and vegetables....it's true, they wouldn't, at least not for the $2-$3 an hour that the illegals are getting paid, they might for a few bucks more. What about the union construction worker who makes $15 an hour in Albuquerque? He's getting screwed because his scumbag boss is laying him off and hiring 3 illegal workers in his place. The illegal immigrants are getting screwed because they're being exploited by these greedy bastards. They have no benefits other than their low pay. Alas, I'm sure it's better being poor in Brownsville than it is in Tijuana.

President Bush wants to allow Mexicans to come here as "guest workers." These guest workers would have no path to permanent residency or citizenship, and their employers would not be obliged to pay them minimum wage. Ok, so the price of grapes and strawberries stay low if this program passes through Congress, but where does this guest worker program go next? Could it be possible that computer technicians will be imported from India to temporarily work for Microsoft in Seattle and be paid $8 an hour? Might there be temporary workers from Vietnam assembling Chevys in Michigan for $5.15 an hour. Multinational companies have the most to gain here; they'd import cheap labor, eliminate the cost of fringe benefits and lay Americans off. This would be free trade run amok. That's what I think this whole illegal immigrant debate is about. It's about lowering wages for American workers, it's about Bush and his cronies fulfilling their dream of eliminating the middle class.

We should do what we've been doing about illegal immigration up until this point, try half-heartedly to enforce the laws we already have. I beleive that any other solution will lead to the further decline and downfall of the American middle class. I don't want to lose my job to a guest worker, I don't want to pay double or triple for my wine and strawberries, and I definitely don't want to look a Mexican man, a fellow human being, and a fellow father in the eye and tell him that he has to go back to Mexico and send his kids back to the dumpsters to find food.