Why are so many DUers adamantly trying to cling to the notion

[saracat]

that the people who kidnapped Jill Carroll are somehow decent human beings? First some were taking her obvious coerced words at face value, and now that she has disavowed those words, both her after release interview, as well as the video, they are stating "well at least she wasn't tortured". We do NOT know what she was put through and she saw her interpreter killed right in front of her! She was threatened and in fear of her life. What is it some posters can't get about this? This boggles my mind. Why are these evil people being defended? I have always been against the war, but that does not make the people who kill and kidnap civilians heroes with good intentions!

[etherealtruth]

1. Well I'm a DU'er that does not believe ...

"decent human beings" kidnap people, murder ....

[barb162]

11. same here. Some people think that the enemy of your enemy is

your friend. Not really. Sometimes they will slit your enemy's throat and your throat too.

[GrumpyGreg]

2. I agree---she must have been terrified and she knew they

were killers and could,and probably will, kill again.

Kidnapping and imprisoning an unarmed woman is not exactly honorable.

[Mz Pip]

3. I don't consider

being locked up for three months not knowing if you are going to live or die a benign experience. It seems like psychological torture to me at the very least.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[madokie]

29. sure it is, many forms of torture, the psychological one worries me the

most. the body heals and the mind does too but its a much longer time in coming.

[catmother]

4. of couse, they were not nice people. they had no right to take

her or anyone else. these people are savages.

[BuyingThyme]

5. I don't know much about this case, but I do know that if

our country was invaded, and foreign reporters were sent here to cover the occupation, they might not be treated so well.

[cali]

7. So?

That wouldn't make it any more excusable. Add to that, the fact that Jill Carroll was widely known, respected and liked by many in the Iraqi community for her great sympathy for Iraqis and her ability to speak the language.

[BuyingThyme]

8. Beautifully put.

Tell me more about this "Iraqi community." Who else do they know and respect?

[cali]

6. Thank you for posting this

I find it troubling that some folks are so eager to affix blame to the US that they excuse the wrongs of others. Nothing good can be said about people who kidnap civilians.

[aquart]

9. Well, we've defined "decency" down.

I mean, Americans still consider ourselves decent human beings and we look the other way for torture, invasion, fraud, theft, murder......

Did they have dogs menacing her? Was she stripped naked and piled up with other naked people?

No? Wish we were that decent.

After what we've done to them, they had no obligation to even leave her with her head.

[NNN0LHI]

12. I too am surprised she was allowed to live after what we have done to them

Kind of proves who the real evil bastards are in this world.

Don

[saracat]

18. And what about those they DIDN"T let live? They don't count? Sheesh. It is

almost as though some feel the insurgents did Jill a "favor' by letting her live and that her capture was "justified"! Some 'freedom fighters" They capture a helpless women civilian in order to get back at the US. Right! What did Ms. Carroll ever do to merit this abuse from them?

[NNN0LHI]

32. Get off your high horse

We, meaning our government, indiscriminately drop fire onto men, women, and children from airplanes.

If you think doing that somehow makes us morally superior to the next murderer you are wrong.

Don

[saracat]

42. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[sandnsea]

44. It doesn't make them morally superior either

There's lots of lies in this war. One of the biggest is that all of the killing is because of our troops and would magically stop if we left. It's not true and will never be true. Justifying their actions because ours are wrong is exactly what they're doing, using our troops as an excuse to engage in ethnic and religious violence. If we weren't there that would remove the excuse and undoubtedly stop some from being duped by their own people. That's why we should begin to leave. But it won't stop the kind of people who kidnapped Jill Carroll and there's no justification for that in any war.

Nobody's on a high horse, some people are just sick of the politicizing of every aspect of this war by every single group involved, including the anti-war peace loving left.

[cali]

20. Speak for yourself, bucko

I sure haven't looked the other way. Apologists disgust me. I don't give a shit whether they're excusing the torture at Abu Gharib and Gitmo, or excusing kidnappers in Iraq. BTW, most of those being kidnapped and killed in Iraq are ordinary Iraqis.

[saracat]

21. Really? I guess I expect more of the Iraqis than some do!

Only a fundamentalist idiot would by into the "eye for an eye" thinking.BTW, do you "Know" what was done to her? She has not yet told her story. We do not know what she was subjected to.

[aquart]

35. But you can imagine, right?

And here I thought you "expect more of the Iraqis than some do."

[Generator]

62. That was one of the most disgusting things I've ever read on DU

Your hatred of America is stronger than your love of innocents. No one deserves to have their head cut off or be tortured or be kidnapped-those are your words and they come from deep hatred-not the love that is supposed to be ANTI-WAR what bullshit-and that IS what you just said Jill Carroll deserved. Don't worry I'm putting you on ignore.

[cali]

67. Unfortunately,

there's a fair amount of "thinking" like that on DU. I just got accused of whining on another thread because of the comments I made on this one. It's ugly, ugly stuff.

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. The only thing going for them is that they let her go.

[catmother]

13. don't forget about daniel pearl. he went to pakistan to interview

the people, to tell their side of the story and they beheaded him.

[Warpy]

14. I do hate to remind you of this

but people living in what is now Iraq have had successive civilizations and began much of what we appropriate to ourselves today as proof of our progress: codified law, the written word, mathematics, fine arts. They did this while your ancestors and mine were painting themselves blue and knocking each other about with clubs.

So it doesn't surprise me that her captors treated her humanely, especially since she was a woman and a relief worker, not part of the military and certainly not part of the corporate occupation.

Please stop falling for the military propaganda that says that anticolonial Iraqis are savage and subhuman. In many ways, they may still be ahead of us.

[saracat]

15. I don't think that these "insurgents" are examples of the

Iraqi people. And there is no reason to believe that she was treated that "humanely'. Why doesn't it matter to some that her interpreter was killed right in front of her? Or is that just propaganda too? The Iraqis civilization is much older than ours and there is no question in my mind that they were better off without our intrusion but that in no way justifies the abuse of Ms. Carroll!

[cali]

16. Absolutely true, but not germane.

The Iraqi culture is one of the oldest in the world. I see no sign however, that most DUers fall for the line that Iraqis are savage and subhuman. In any culture there are people who commit heinous acts and the kidnapping of Jill Carroll as well as the kidnapping of so many Iraqis, are heinous acts. Really, it's that simple. (Just as an aside, you have no idea who my ancestors were, or who the ancestors of other posters were)

Jill Carroll has nothing but harsh words for her kidnappers now that she is free. Read her statement. Oh, never mind, I'm sure the US military forced her to condemn her kidnappers.

[thefool_wa]

23. Regular Iraqi's aren't the problem

Those in Iraq who are just trying to get by are not the one's kidnapping people and beheading them on tape. And I don't think the image of the insurgency is military propaganda, they earned it with body count and horrifying acts unlike anything I have ever seen, videotaped and sent to us so we would know exactly what they were capable of.

From what I understand of the insurgency, it is being led by the most radical of their religious leaders with an overall goal of instating their absolute rule. They don't want freedom for the "everyday joe" in Iraq. They want their rule, their power, and all who oppose will die.

Sounds like the good guys to me.

:sarcasm:

[Warpy]

34. That doesn't change the fact

that she said she was held in humane conditions. Well, other than the death threats..

That has nothing to do with which fringe they belong to or what their aims may be. The point was the treatment she claimed to have gotten.

[saracat]

39. It doesn't change the fact that she has disavowed all she said

due to fear of her life!

[Mz Pip]

33. We've got our savages

They've got theirs. One does not excuse the other.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Garbo 2004]

70. Carroll was a journo, not a relief worker. Margaret Hassan was a relief

worker and had lived in Iraq for 30 years, married to an Iraqi and a citizen. Unfortunately she was killed rather than released. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3756552.stm

Just a couple factoids, not intended as a generalization on anticolonial Iraqis or Iraqis in general.

Carroll's friend and translator did not survive the kidnapping. Perhaps he resisted, had no value to them or was viewed as a "collaborator." I suspect his family likely won't characterize Carroll's captors as "humane" however comparatively well Carroll was treated, and neither would Carroll on that point.

Phil Sands, a Brit journo who was kidnapped last year, has an interesting piece in todays WaPo: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/01/AR2006040100003.html

[thefool_wa]

17. I have no defense for them

After years and years of watching what these people are truly capable of, I'm glad she made it out alive and hope that Jill will be able to sleep the rest of her nights in this world.

I am willing to take her statements at face value, or at least believe that she is telling us all that she wants to talk about publicly. However, I don't think that we should go around patting the lunatics on the back for not being "that evil" this time.

To those who would say that they "did the right thing" I say: no, they didn't. Doing the right thing would be not kidnapping her in the first place. I'm not sure any of the fundamentalist lunatics in that part of the world are capable of ding the right thing. Hell, the fundamentalist lunatics in this part of the world aren't capable of doing the right thing.

My prayers go out to Jill Carroll. Welcome Home.

[Neil Lisst]

19. They're cold-blooded killers, criminals.

The wholesale slaughter we've seen in recent weeks between Sunnis and Shiite should be one indicator that we're still dealing with 18th century values in Iraq. If they chop one another's heads off and stack them in a pile, how much less must they care about infidels?

They'd just as soon kill a liberal Democrat as a conservative Republican, making zero distinction between them.

[Sparkly]

22. Are they?

Seriously -- I haven't been on DU much lately, until today... I hope nobody's defending kidnappers.

[Igel]

25. There was a video from the reporter released by the

thugs that captured her, killed her translator, and held her for 82 days. It basically said they were swell guys.

This fits nicely with those people for whom American soldiers are the quintessential bad guy oppressors and any victim must be somehow morally superior. The morally superior to not abuse or terrorize their victims, esp. if 'treat guest well' is a cultural imperative. Things are neatly black and white and everything fits into a neat little narrative; what doesn't fit must be false-flag operations, military propaganda, or misinformation/disinformation. This is mild hyperbole, of course; people actually fall on a spectrum, with few at this extreme end of it.

People could believe the video the captors released because they wanted to; they conveniently forgot their propaganda video in which she was obviously quite terrified, or that her translator was killed in front of her. Carroll said they were swell guys! Hey, it must be true!

Nobody with any critical thinking skills could accept her video, because it was directly contradicted by fairly well established facts of long standing: Therefore, either it was openly coerced, she was mildly insane, or she converted to their point of view. (I'm giving victims the benefit of the doubt in distinguishing those last two.) If there's a fourth option, I can't think of it.

[Sparkly]

28. I did see that video

and her statement today.

I missed the response on DU about the video... But especially after the statement today, I hope nobody's saying they were nice guys... :shrug:

[QC]

24. Western = Bad. Non-Western = Good.

Her captors were not Western, therefore they are good. That's simple enough.

[aquart]

36. No, dear. You mean, "simplistic."

Such leaping assumptions are way too Republican for my taste.

[QC]

37. I guessI should have used the sarcasm smilie. n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

53. Except for illegal immigrants.

:sarcasm:

[Ilsa]

26. ITA, saracat.

I'm with you on this, and no one should buy the propaganda they forced her to create or lose her life.

I think way too many people at every angle jumped in too fast to draw conclusions when this story hadn't been finished.

[bainz]

43. QFT n/t

[Ilsa]

58. What is "QFT"? nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. None of this would be taking place if we hadn't illegally and....

...immorally invaded another sovereign nation based on a pack of lies.

That kind of action usually creates people in the invaded nation that fall into the following general categories:

*The Neutrals...those that try to stay completely clear of the conflict.

*The Collaborators...those that try to cozy up to the invaders.

*The Insurgency...those that fight the invaders at every opportunity using whatever means they have at their disposal to include IEDs, small arms, rockets, grenades, etc.

*The Extremist Insurgency...those that fight the invaders using kidnapping, torture and executions to strike fear into the hearts of the invaders/collaborators, and to keep their fellow insurgents in line.

The longer we stay in that country, the greater the ranks of the Insurgency and Extremist Insurgency will grow. We created this mess, and the only way to resolve it is by getting the heck out.

[saracat]

40. And this has what to do with Jill Carroll?

What had she to do with any of this? Is she a decision maker , or even in the military? Sheesh. Using this argument and applying it to all Americans, you would approve your own capture!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. What the heck are you talking about? Do you not understand....

...that if the NeoCons had not illegally invaded/occupied Iraq that the Jill Carroll kidnapping would never have happened?

No invasion equals no U. S. troops in Iraq, and that means that NO journalists would have been captured by insurgents because there would nay have been an insurgeancy at all.

We created this terrible mess, and bad things are happening. Why is that a surprise to anyone?

Your last sentence is so foolish that it doesn't deserve a response.

[cali]

49. And if the SC hadn't appointed bushco,

the british hadn't cobbled together Iraq, the US hadn't supported Saddam. Hell, if Eve hadn't taken a bite out of the damn apple, we'd all still be in Eden! The kidnappers that took her, and terrorized her are still culpable.

[walldude]

30. While I agree with you I also know that they were holding

her in an attempt to get Iraqi women released from prison. So everything everyone has said about them in this thread should be turned right around and attributed to us. We are no better than the people we claim are killers, kidnappers, whatever. This is a case of the pot calling the kettel black.

[Minnesota Libra]

31. It's truly amazing what some people will accept without thinking..........

....about all the side issues. The fact that she was held against her will and saw her photographer killed was torture enough. Under torture conditions nothing the person says can be trusted. Duh

[aquart]

38. "Torture enough"?

Goodness, we are delicate creatures. We can dish it out but can't take it?

[saracat]

41. And Ms. Carroll is supposed to have tortured someone? Please? The old eye

for an eye ought not to be applied here. She is a civilian reporter.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. And she's in a country that was wrongfully invaded....

...don't you think that has some effect on how ANY American can be treated over there?

[WildEyedLiberal]

45. So any American deserves torture because of Abu Ghraib?

Would you like to volunteer to go to Iraq and allow yourself to be tortured by militant insurgents, since according to your non-logic in this thread, EVERY American, whether military or not, deserves what was done to Iraqis at Abu Ghraib?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. I don't think anyone deserves to be tortured, but if you're in.....

...a country that your government has invaded illegally, all bets are off in regards to anything if you get captured or taken hostage.

Those are the hard, cold facts, so don't blame me or anyone else on this board.

[Generator]

60. Okaydokay!

If someone cuts your head off well blame George Bush if you are ever in Iraq and not have any sympathy for you, okay? Sheez I know why the Left can be as bad as the right. Next up-let's blame those in the world trade center for being little Eichmann's that deserved to die. I mean after all they were "only stock brokers". I see the Left is always with the high ground. Yes, that's the kind of beautiful peaceful logical swine trash I get to read on DU.

[WildEyedLiberal]

65. God, no kidding

I'm appalled at the attitude of some here that anything that happens to any American in the Middle East is richly deserved because Bush is a prick. If some DUer went to Iraq as part of a humanitarian mission to provide medical care to Iraqis and got kidnapped, tortured, and beheaded by militant jihadists, I guess some here would say they got what they deserved, after all, for committing the unforgivable crime of being an American. Sick.

And then these same people complain when the rightwing accuses them of the very things they actually believe in. I guess there's a point at which the morally righteous left-wing lunatics and the morally righteous right-wing lunatics become indistinguishable; after all, when you're advocating that murder, torture, and beheading are somehow justified, it ceases to matter WHO you're justifying it for.

[cali]

68. Well said.

I wish you'd turn this into its own thread.

cali

[Minnesota Libra]

51. Obviously, I was indicating that seeing her photogragher killed...........

....we know about but what else happned to her we have yet to find out. Does this make sense now?:eyes: :shrug: :think:

[malaise]

50. From my perspective there

is little decency during invasions and resistance. The war is illegal and if it were my homeland I'd be part of the resistance.

[cali]

55. Glad I don't know you, hope never to meet you,

if, by saying you'd join the resistance, you'd do things like kidnap and murder people, or in Jill's case, kidnap them and terrorize them. Again, there are people in Iraq doing horrible things. They aren't justified in killing children, kidnapping and murdering mainly Iraqis or blowing up Mosques and marketplaces.

[malaise]

57. Is anything going on in Iraq

justified or legal. I'm a pacifist but I'd defend my homeland and I trust you'd do the same.
Edit -sp.

[cali]

59. I don't know what I'd do and

neither do you. I what I hope I wouldn't do; be swept up in bloodlust, justify cruel actions by saying they were needed in the name of freedom; in short, I hope I wouldn't betray my humanity.

[CrazyForKucinich]

52. Wrong!

Go watch V for Vendetta. You'll see kidnapping civlians can have good intentions.

[cali]

56. LOL!!!

Nothing like basing your argument on a Hollywood movie based on a comic book. Not to mention that your comment has NOTHING to do with the case at hand. Sheesh.

[CrazyForKucinich]

64. WRONG!!!!

Taking someone prisoner to show them the evilness of their own country's evil ways works.

[cali]

66. I hope you're just

really young, like 16, because the alternative is that you're just really fucked up or stupid. It's sick to justify kidnapping and terrorizing civilians because you saw it in a movie.

[CrazyForKucinich]

71. It can work.

That's what all the fuss about Jill Carroll was...was she convinced her captors were doing the right thing...it turns out she wasn't.

Still...forcing someone to go through crap to punctuate the point that the government is forcing people to go through crap and thus open that person's eyes...who is blind...is a viable solution.

[MoonRiver]

54. Just being a captive all that time, isolated, not knowing one's fate,

is traumatic enough. Nice people don't do these kind of things to other people. PERIOD.

[Rich Hunt]

61. that is just batty

Something about the middle east just utterly confuses some people, it's like, their ethics and perceptions get all screwed up.

Is there a link to these threads?

[misternormal]

63. This woman is a civilian...

... I doubt that she was required to sign some sort of loyalty oath to protect what she knew or didn't know from falling into enemy hands up to and through pain of death...

This woman was trying to stay alive... It would not even matter if they never intended to kill her... as long as they kept up the premise that they were willing to...

I do not blame her for saying what she needed to say to stay alive.

I would wager that the majority of the posters that are against her actions have never been in a similar situation, so... Walk a mile in her shoes before spouting about that which you know not.

[bee]

69. because they let her go? I dunno, just my guess. n/t