I have completely had it with the mindless bigotry and flag waving here.

[tjwash]

You know who the hell you are, and to those of you I say... if there is any real justice in the world, and karma actually does exist, you will come back in the next life as a Pakistani woman, or a poor sheep herder in Africa who's tribe is marked for genocide by a corrupt and bloodthirsty government.

Maybe then you will get a greater appreciation for WHY people come here "illegally."

Is it right? No. I am not saying that illegal immigration is right in any sense of the word. That is not what is bothering me at the present. What I have a huge problem with, is we are supposed to be the party of tolerance, and solutions to problems, and all I have been seeing from many people here, is disguised racism, carefully worded bigotry and jingoistic spout-offs, and small minded flag waving nonsense. The problem I see from people that love to spout off "American this" ,and "my flag that" bullshit, is that you have no clue. You have never had to live in an impoverished country, where people work 12 hour days for pennies, and go hungry at night because, because even after all that, they still can't afford to feed everyone in their family.

And before you feel the need to ask, yes, I have indeed spent time in the third world. A lot of time. I have spent more time globally than I have in the US, and have seen the results of corrupt governments, rampant multinational corporatism, and our global "spread of democracy" in action, with my own eyes.

I am very sad for most of you, because you don't even see what is in store for us here in the USA. We as a collective nation, have grown completely fat and complacent because the past forty plus years have been an amazing time of plenty for all of us here. We have gotten to the point where many of us have come to regard this complete excess that we enjoy, as a sort of god-given birthright, and that is pretty pathetic. You have never had to struggle. I mean REALLY struggle. What most of you have turned a blind eye too, perhaps in spite of, perhaps because of, is that our economy is on the verge of collapse, and the corporate robber barons have headed for cheaper pastures. In our lifetime, we are going to be the ones that will be sneaking across borders to find something, ANYTHING to feed our families with, because the jobs will not exist here anymore.

So go ahead, wave your flag, and look down on those less fortunate than you, after all, you are the chosen people aren't you? I just hope you remember some of the bigotry you are spouting off, when your whole world comes collapsing down on you.

[tocqueville]

1. wow !

:popcorn:

[mondo joe]

2. Managing our resources and immigration isn't about racism or flag

waving.

I'm sorry the US can't just open its borders and make everything better for everyone. If it would do that, I'd support it.

We have a responsibility to manage these matters JUST as we have a responsibility to manage our deficit and environment.

What way too many people want is the equivalent of greatly increasing the deficit - just open it up and don't worry about what happens.

[ret5hd]

25. when we start "Managing our resources"...

when we start repaying every salvadoran, guatemalan, peruvian, brazilian, philipino, mexican, native american, etc for every penny we (as u.s. citizens thru our governments action) have STOLEN from their mouths...

when we start to manage our deficit...

when we start to manage our environment...

then, maybe, you would be correct.

but we won't...

we, as a group, as a nation, INSIST that NONE of these things be done. If we started to do ANY of those things in a truly serious way, we would vote the administration out a flat second.

Because we are, paraphrasing the OP, a nation of overindulged, fat, pasty-faced, soft, pink pu**ies. The entire world owes us a living. We depend on the charity of the world (to the tune of $3,000,000,000 A DAY) to keep us in our current lifestyle, and all the while bitch and whine about some mythical "welfare queen" getting rich of the government teat. We are the trust-fund-kids whose trust fund is broke and are now living on credit as if there is no difference between debit and credit.

Managing our resources...pffft!

Our ONLY hope, (and this holds true for almost all western industrialized nations, whose birth rates are falling), if our bloated sweating bodies hope to draw social security, medicare/medicaid, pensions, etc...is to open the borders to young healthy workers, make them legal, offer them strong unions, and hope that things don't get so bad here that they just tell us to piss off and go back home.

[mondo joe]

38. Well, let's see how full of crap that argument is.

I advocate managing our resources, our environment and our budget. So of course I advocate managing immigration as well.

I don't have a double standard. They stink.

I'm going to keep advocating for a responsible approach to all those issues, and I'm not surrendering any because the GOP is so fucked up.

If you want to surrender your US privilege or benefits or whatever go right ahead and do it. Give all your possessions to some illegal, or just send the money to Peru.

[YouthInAsia]

3. But coming into our country by walking over the border is

ILLEGAL. I'm not flag waving, and I understand WHY they do it. But that doesnt mean its not ILLEGAL. I need a car real bad right now, should I be able to just steal one? NO, thats illegal. If they wanna come here, do it the LEGAL way. We have laws in this country, laws which I am forced to follow. Why should these individuals get a pass????????????

[merh]

12. It is not the "illegals" you should be angry with.

It is our twisted leaders that have given individual rights to corporations, that have not held said corporations responsible for their use and abuse of the "illegals" they utilize to lower their costs and increase their profits.

IF, our government turned its attention to the corporations and the fat cats that utilize the illegals, there would be a control of the flow of illegals. They wouldn't be so quick to come here to make a living because that living wouldn't be so readily available to them.

[mondo joe]

13. Anger isn't a pie. We can be angry with more than one party.

Not that I think most of us are even ANGRY with illegals. I know I'm not. Most of us understand what drives it.

But that doesn't make it okay.

[merh]

16. Again, it is not the "illegals" that you should be ranting about.

It is the corporations that use their labor and it is the government that protects the corporations and give them rights greater than what you and I enjoy. If you are an accessory to a crime, do you think that you would be allowed to get away with it?

[mondo joe]

18. Why can't I rant about both?

It's totally fucked that corporations have been "granted" such rights.

That doesn't mitigate the crime of illegal immigration.

[merh]

28. Then why don't you rant about both?

Why don't you recognize the simple truth that it is the corporations and rich folks that use cheap labor who are luring illegals into the nation and our government has turned a blind eye to their involvement.

The corporations and rich folks are like the drug dealers and the illegals are the simple users. Punishing the simple users has never solved the drug problems.

If those that use the services of illegals were actually punished when caught (and I am talking actual jail time and huge monetary fines) then the practice of using illegals would diminish in popularity. It just wouldn't be fiscally sound. In turn, those from other nations would realize that they need to legally enter the country in order to find a job to make the living they need to survive.

It is really that simple.

[mondo joe]

31. I do. This is the topic of the moment.

But thanks for volunteering to be my message board nanny.

Managing immigration isn't punishment - it's a necessity.

And I do strongly support penalizing employers of illegals as a strategy.

[merh]

52. How silly of you to stoop to demeaning comments.

I haven't tried to be your "message board nanny", I am challenging to actually address the issue at it's heart. I am suggesting you craft the "topic of the moment" to something more than "illegals are bad and must be stopped." Present possible solutions, discuss why it is that immigration is not managed by our government, think beyond the box you have been posting in today.

Sorry you don't appreciate an intellectual challenge and prefer to be petty.

[mondo joe]

57. Your "challenge" is demeaning. I gave you my position. I think I can

figure out when I want to take up which issue.

And this issue is no less at the heart than the corporate issue.

WHY the government is failing to manage it doesn't mitigatre the responsibility of illegals to not break the law.

[merh]

93. Okay, tell me how the government should manage the issue?

Tell me what should be done to stop "illegals".

I have told you what I perceive to be the simplest and least expensive means to end the problem, you tell me your solution.

Mind you, in discussing the issues, it would be nice if you would include the costs necessary to institute your management suggestions, things like where the revenues will come from to fund the programs, the man power necessary to execute your suggestions, etc.

My proposal is the most effective, easiest to implement and the least costly as fining the corporations and the individuals that profit from the use of illegals will pay for the proper management of the program. The fines must be severe, so severe that profits are hurt.

[mondo joe]

100. Forget it - once you decided to smear those who disagree with you as

racists you made yourself ineligible for a serious discussion.

I will simply repeat some points I've made previously: I'd advocate heavily penalizing employers of illegals; I'd strongly boost border security on an ongoing basis; I'd advocate for a way to issue amnesty for illegals who have been in the US for some years, but within a window of opportunity and some restrictions (and it HAS to be done in conjunction with tightening controls); the smaller number of illegals who are caught and not granted amnesty will be penalized in no way more punitive than being returned to their country of origin.

[merh]

108. You can't do it, can you.

It is beyond your ability to be able to articulate how we should "manage" illegals. You don't have any more answers than what exists at this time. You just focus your anger at the illegals and fail to realize that they are pawns and are being used.

So instead of trying to find a solution, you tuck tail and run, blaming your retreat on me because I suggest that race is an issue.

All of your repeated points are actually programs in play now, the problem that exists with them is our government's failure to implement them because cutting off the flow of illegals will hurt the profits of the corporations.

I don't blame the illegals for being here, I blame our government for allowing individuals and corporations to make a profit by using them.

[Maru Kitteh]

62. Anger isn't a pie. We can be angry with more than one party.

What part of that did you not understand?

Yes - you were being a message board nanny, and you were called on it. You responded by putting words in the posters mouth and then name calling. So much for your intellectual challenge.

[merh]

65. Are you taking on the job of message board nanny now?

I did not put words in the poster's mouth. I suggested that the poster recognize that there is more to the "illegal" issue than just the influx of illegals.

You can be angry with anyone you like, I hope your anger serves you well. I would suggest that it hasn't to date given my response to his post "we can be angry with more than one party" was:

Again, it is not the "illegals" that you should be ranting about.

It is the corporations that use their labor and it is the government that protects the corporations and give them rights greater than what you and I enjoy. If you are an accessory to a crime, do you think that you would be allowed to get away with it?

I see no name calling in that response. It appears your anger has hindered your comprehension skills.

[mondo joe]

67. And while there IS more to the issue than illegals, you might look at

the OP to see why posts in this thread are running the way they are rather than addressing corporate responsibility - and that is, people opposed to illegal immigration are called racists and more.

[merh]

73. And the reason they are being called racists and more is

because they blame the individuals who are lured here instead of focusing the blame on the ones that lure them here and the government for turning a blind eye to the crimes associated with the luring.

[mondo joe]

75. Incorrect.

And even if the individuals who break the law are blamed for breaking the laws it doesn't mean the posters are racists in the least.

[merh]

82. You are incorrect.

All of your posts attack the individuals that happen to be illegals because they come to this country to make a better life for themselves.

Because those illegals are of a nationality different than your own, your attacking them is perceived as racist because you fail to recognize their human needs and the reasons behind their actions.

When a government awards a corporation for enticing someone to break the law and punishes the law breaker, it is very easy to see how those that applaud the punishment to the law breaker over the corporation may be considered racist.

[mondo joe]

88. You continue to be mistakken.

Even if it is somehow misguided or incorrect or naive to hold people responsible for illegally entering a country it isn't racist unless the responsibility is based on race, which is not the case. Race is irrelevant.

Furthermore, they're not being "attacked".

It's easy to see how it couldd be considered racist if you're looking for ways to demonize people who disagree with you.

Shameful.

[merh]

96. Race is relevant.

It is folks of race that are the illegals. You can't get around the race issue. It is impossible.

[mondo joe]

101. There is no double standard here for races.

Everyone is "of race" in as much as there is such a thing as race.

[merh]

110. Who makes up the majority of the heads of the corporations that

recognize a profit on the backs of the illegals?

Who makes up the majority of the illegals that you resent so?

Consider your statement again.

[mondo joe]

111. Now I "so resent" people? You should stop making things up.

I'm sorry your feelings were hurt earlier by being called a "nanny".

It's not an excuse for smearing people.

[merh]

118. I do resent folks who won't think out of the box.

I also resent folks who debate an issue because it is "the topic of the day".

That is not swiftboating you, that is not smearing you, that is repeating your words to explain my feelings.

You have a tendency to name call and attack rather than discuss. I can be passionate about a subject, but I try to keep the emotions in check and debate the issues, not attack the poster.

[mondo joe]

119. LOL - "debate the issues, not attack the poster".

That's all you've done, with your ugly racism smears.

Goodnight - if you're going to do a GOP style smear and pretend to be virtuous there's no point in trying to talk with you.

I'm just sorry to see this sort of thing from a fellow Democrat.

[merh]

121. I have not smeared you.

Your words speak for themselves.

:hi:

[Maru Kitteh]

99. Should I? You seem to be be secure and satiated in that position.

You most certainly did put words in the posters mouth, everyone can see it and if you do not it is decidedly your own deficit.

I did not speak anything in my post about any of my own "anger", yet you choose to put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head as well. Is that the only tactic you have, your only strategy for debate? You may want to work on that.


Comprehension skills? I see you quite clearly.

[merh]

123. Comprehension is not seeing, it is understanding what you read.

Apparently you have not mastered that as you insist that I put words in the poster's mouth, when I did not. He has not spoken, so words cannot be put in his mouth and I have no means to be able to add words to his typed response. His words speak for themselves.

And the anger remark that I relate to you stems from your attack of me and your inability to read what is typed on the screen. Usually anger will make folks misread things. I would think you would prefer to have your misread attributed to your anger rather than any inability, but I do admit, I could be wrong.

[shanti]

76. you are one of the few

that "get's it". why are people so myopic?

[merh]

86. As one poster put it "it is the topic of the day"

Thinking outside of the box or recognizing the root of the evil sometimes takes too much effort.

Not saying that the thoughts are too deep, just that the thinkers may be too lazy. It's much easier to blame the dark skinned person who is working in that low paying job than it is to blame the corporations that hire them and/or the government that awards the corporation (through continued tax incentives, through government contracts, through failure to fine and/or imprison the executives, etc.).

:shrug:

[shanti]

90. it's so sad too

but so american :(

[merh]

95. Now, that isn't fair.

You are stereotyping which is just as bad as being racist.

Not all Americans think as many here think.

Be nice. :hi:

[shanti]

114. hey, that WAS "nice"

:evilgrin: i understand what you're saying, but i feel that the u.s. is VERY racist and/or xenophobic (and of course there are exceptions!). i'm a ww raising a biracial child, and it has really opened my eyes to many things that i had always taken for granted.

it's just that issues like this have a way of bringing the racist attitudes out. i won't even mention katrina :eyes: what's in the dark, ALWAYS comes to the light.

that said, there are many, many conscious du'ers, and you are one of them, merh! :hi:

peace

[merh]

117. Oh, please don't get me started on Katrina.

I have first hand experience with the burdens associated with the no-bid contracts awarded to the administrations' cronies. I see the misuse of monies and I battle the red tape daily. Again, it is the corporations over the people.

I do appreciate your kind words and am proud to share the board with you. :hi:

[QC]

94. "It's much easier to blame the dark skinned person"

And it's much easier to racebait and to throw straw men around than it is to think of anything intelligent to say.

[merh]

106. You have posted proof of that time and time again.

I have put forth an actual solution to the problem without focusing on the illegals which are in effect pawns in the game. As shanti so wisely put it, cut the head off the serpent. Stop those who profit from the use of illegals and make it difficult for illegals to make a living without abiding by the existing immigration laws. That is not being done.

I am so enjoying the "straw man argument" references that so many of you have been using lately. I have read that on other forums, whenever the posters are presented with reasonable assessments of the situation they allege that "straw men" are thrown around. I can't decide if you all just pick it up from each other or if you have little pow wows where you suggest it be used.

Do you even know what it means to "throw around a straw man argument"?

an argument which is intended to distract the other side from the real issues or waste the opponent's time and effort, sometimes called a "red herring" (for the belief that drawing a fish across a trail will mislead hunting dogs).

In my neck of the woods we call it a wet hide argument, trying to distract the dogs with a wet hide. As I am one of the few that has presented an actual solution to the problem, my argument is not a straw man argument. It is not meant to distract you from the issues at hand, it is meant to focus your attention on the true source of the problem, that is the government's failure to hold those responsible for the crisis truly responsible. Stop letting folks/corporations make a profit off of the backs of the illegals. Not only do you stop the ability to profit, you penalize them so severely they realize a loss.

[QC]

109. "I am so enjoying the "straw man argument" references"

You must be, since you are striving so mightily to inspire as many of them as possible.

And yes, I know very well what a straw man is, having spent the past seventeen years teaching college students about logical fallacies. Your definition is wrong, by the way. A straw man is when one deliberately misrepresents what one's opponent has said and then attacks that mispresentation. A red herring is when one drags in irrelevant issues in hopes of muddying the waters. It's odd that you wouldn't know the difference, considering your mastery of both.

And I agree about punishing corporations, and have posted that many times. I'm simply tired of your habit of denouncing everyone who disagrees with you as a racist. It's cheap, and stupid, and worthy only of freepers and the like.

[merh]

112. Sorry teach, I think you need to go back and check your definitions

This is the link to the first definition I provided: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Straw-man+argument

Then there are these definitions, neither one of them tend to match your definition.

The noun straw man has 2 meanings:
Meaning #1: a person used as a cover for some questionable activity
Synonyms: front man, front, figurehead, nominal head
Meaning #2: a weak argument set up to be easily refuted
http://www.answers.com/topic/straw-man

One entry found for straw man.
Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
2 : a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=strawman

As I posted to another, if race is not an issue, then I ask you to answer me these simple questions.

What is the race of the majority of those who profit from the use of "illegals", whether it be in individuals or corporations?

What is the race of the majority of the illegals?

Who is it that is arrested, prosecuted and punished for the violations of the immigration laws, the members of the profiting race or the members of the "illegals" race?

I suppose I should concede race is truly secondary to the crisis. It is a matter of class, the caste system at it finest.

[mondo joe]

113. Learn the difference between a Straw Man and a Red Herring if you're

going to use the terms, please.

[merh]

122. What, are you QC's echo?

Please refer to the definitions I provided
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=818889&mesg_id=819703

You should google before making such statements, it will help you avoid perceptions of smears in the future.

[mondo joe]

97. Please stop swiftboating your fellow DU posters.

I suggest you argue the issues rather than smeearing your felllow posters.

[merh]

115. I haven't swiftboated anyone.

I simply repeated your words.

[mondo joe]

116. Nice swiftboating.

Blaming dark skinned people (despite the fact that the standard stated is not race specific)
The people you claim I "so resent" though I don't.

Tell me, does it feel good to misrepresent your fellow DU poster?

[merh]

120. You so like the term "swiftboating".

I don't have to swiftboat you and I have not misrepresented you, your words speak for themselves. I find it interesting that others in this thread and in other threads on this subject that you have participated in have formed a similar opinion to mine, that is race is a consideration. Others have practically called you a bigot, I have not. I have simply pointed out that you cannot get away from the discussion of race when discussing illegals.

Again, what race makes up the majority of the heads of the corporations that make the profits?

What race makes up the "illegals"?

You cannot escape the race issue in these discussions.

[QC]

30. Because there can only be one problem or another!

Anything more than that just gets too complicated for some people!

[mondo joe]

33. Well if there can only be one problem, I choose people who are too loud on

the bus. They chafe my ass.

[merh]

66. And if one were to read on the posts on this subject

you would be in the running for the loudest. :hi:

[mondo joe]

70. That reflects how much I dislike slander and inaccuracy.

Thanks.

[shanti]

74. dude, you aren't getting it

you have to cut the head off the serpent (corporations) to end it!

[mondo joe]

78. That's one opinion. There are others.

[merh]

87. exactly

Thank you for stating it so simply.

[YouthInAsia]

19. of course not, but neither should the perpetrator

[YouthInAsia]

14. But its still illegal and they KNOW its illegal so how can they

get upset with us for trying to enforce our own laws? Should we begin selectively enforcing our laws depending on the plight of the offender?

[merh]

20. We are selectively enforcing our laws.

We are not holding the corporations that hire illegals responsible.
We are not preventing the corporations from taking advantage of the illegals and ignoring labor laws.

Anyone that hires an illegal is guilty of a crime and should be held accountable for that crime.

That is not what is being done.

[YouthInAsia]

22. But thats not the americans peoples fault. we are at the mercy

of this goddamn corporatist regime. The american people should not be punished for the inaction of their damn government

[merh]

40. Yes, you are right, we shouldn't be punished for the inaction of

our government. But it is OUR government and it is up to us to reclaim it.

I'm not willing to let the government or the corporations off the hook on this issue.

Blaming the illegals for going where the money can be found is like blaming the hungry for going where they can find food.

Stop the illegal practice of hiring illegals and you will greatly diminish the influx of illegals.

[YouthInAsia]

48. We cant reclaim it. Theyve taken over the voting. We're through

[merh]

56. I'm not

and given you moniker leads me to believe you are young, it is a damned shame that you have given up so early.

It's my nation and I will continue my efforts to reclaim it.

Absentee ballots are hand counted, I believe I am going to be out of town on election day and will have to vote that way. Many folks I know will be out of town too. :hi:

[YouthInAsia]

59. I'm glad you have hope, cuz I dont. I truly believe we have

been taken over by these fascists. Hopefully you'll be right!

[Atman]

24. Then we all need to be working within the system to change it

If the law sucks or doesn't work, the remedy it to work to change the laws.

[merh]

45. exactly.

In order to bring about change, you have to recognize the need for the change.

Recognizing that our government closes its eyes to those that profit from the use of illegals is the first step in dealing with the "illegal" problem, imho.

[mondo joe]

42. And I advocate enforcing them consistently.

Is "Bad leaders apply laws selectively so we will too" the new Democratic standard?

[merh]

60. What a silly question.

Again, let me try to clarify this for you. The problem is that those that profit from the use (abuse, trafficing, housing and encouraging)of illegal immigrants are not punished. If we turn the "topic of the day" into that discussion, then we have found a legitimate topic to discuss that will actually affect the influx of illegals.

We could actually make so that the illegals will want to come into the nation legally so that they can find the work they seek. No work, no money, no need to come.

[shanti]

77. exactly

people wouldn't come to the u.s. if there weren't any jobs for them.

[shanti]

72. thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!

you hit the nail on the proverbial head!!!

[GoneOffShore]

4. thank you TJ Wash

Excellent.

:kick:

[Extend a Hand]

5. My sentiments Exactly!

We have way more to fear from our 'illegal' government than we do from desperate people crossing our borders.

[bigtree]

6. "In our lifetime, we are going to be the ones that will be sneaking

across borders to find something . . . because the jobs will not exist here anymore."

That rings true in the face of our collective wealth and the widespread indifference to the plights of the poor in the world community. With over 40% of our national debt financed by foreign interests, we should be mindful of the slim thread that holds our relative prosperity aloft as our government presumes to lord over all the rest of the world.

[ret5hd]

27. see my post #25...I agree totally

[GrumpyGreg]

7. No,most of us haven't lived the way you describe but our

parents and grandparents probably did.

They came to this country as refugees or immigrants but they did it legally.

Amd as far as saying we never had to struggle---baloney ! You know nothing about me or my life.

[calmblueocean]

8. Don't take this the wrong way, but grow up.

This is just namecalling. No one at DU looks down on those less fortunate than themselves. I've probably read all the same posts you have. The only "mindless" behavior I see in display is this post mindlessly calling fellow community members jingoistic bigots.

[Maru Kitteh]

55. I'm right there with you. This post is utter crap.

And BTW, I HAVE struggled. I ate table scraps, the uneaten food that diners left on behind on their plates that I hoarded. I did that for almost a year. I did that so my baby could eat and have proper clothing and heat in the winter.

Fuck anybody who wants to tell me I don't know what struggle is.

Now I watch a dear friend languish in a job she hates for a company she cannot stand at a pathetic wage while her family struggles because her husband cannot find work. They've gone from solvent and secure to near destitution because the market here has been OVERRUN by illegal immigrant workers. He can't even bid himself out for three fucking dollars an hour anymore.

I always scoffed at the "Ivory Tower" liberals meme. It saddens me to see that in this instance, the evidence has merit.

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. Immigration is an issue because of the weakness of the USA

due to outsourcing, inflation of housing and energy costs, free trade with china, the war in Iraq, etc. People are into the "protect what I got left" mode now as never before.

[Inland]

10. Thanks to Babel Fish, I can translate from Outrage to English

"Mindless bigotry and flag waving" means "Being for some sort of control on immigration."

[leftstreet]

91. ROFL!

Nice one.

[mike_c]

11. bravo!

Hats off to you for an excellent rant!

[quinnox]

15. Whoa, I guess I better agree with the pro-illegal immigration

side, otherwise I'll be accused of being a mindless flag waving person who looks down their nose at those less fortunate. :eyes:

[Maru Kitteh]

64. YEAH! And you're probably a closet FREEPER too! *sarcasm*

I bet you have some white robes and pointy hats as well! :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[fishnfla]

17. What skinner said

if i disagree with you, i must be a bigot.

painted into a corner, ones says, it will dry

[Warpy]

21. Speak for yourself

because some of us have been having a very hard time out here in computerland because our jobs have been offshored and there has been nothing much to replace them.

Illegals come here because they know they can get work from exploitative exmployers. They don't give a shit that by bidding down the wages they're starving the people already here, so spare me the hearts and flowers about them. The dollars they're paid in looks like a huge fortune until they've been here for a few years. Then it's too late, everybody's wages are down.

Ask yourself who really benefits from having them here. We're certainly not paying lower prices as we see our wages go down and inflation continue to climb. They're working like dogs and often living in worse conditions than the average dog and never getting ahead.

Just who is benefiting from this? Get it yet? Think hard.

The flood of illegals isn't the root of the problem. Cheapass employers who want something for nothing are the problem. Once you figure that out, you'll stop both the flag waving and the poor immigant posts. And then you can begin fighting the disease, not just the symptom.

[shanti]

79. thank you

another conscious du'er...:hug:

[Atman]

23. I have completely had it with mindless support of illegal activity here

One of your first respondents summed it up nicely; "I need a new car. Should I just steal one?"

We listened to the GOP for years tell us that Bill Clinton getting his knob waxed sent a terrible message to kids. So what kind of message are we sending to kids, adults, ANYONE, by saying "go ahead and commit the crime, and we'll look the other way...so long as you mow my lawn and watch my kids?"

Bullshit. Your rant is off-based. This is NOT about poor struggling Mexicans looking for a better life. Bring 'em in, I welcome them. But dammit, do it legally!

Maybe a good example might be for you to head to Mexico and make some big drug deal on an open street corner, then demand to be let out of your cockroach infested hellhole prison, saying you only did it because drugs are sooooo expensive and hard to find in the states. See how far that will get you.

[YouthInAsia]

32. Exactly.

[RagingInMiami]

43. All this self-rightousness is giving me a headache

I think I'll go smoke a joint.

[QC]

46. Don't like people horning in on your racket, eh? n/t

[RagingInMiami]

54. The self-righteousness racket?

Only if they're on my side of the issue.

[Atman]

47. touché

Is it Mexican weed?

[RagingInMiami]

50. Probably

Which means it's lower-grade than something that was grown under hydrochronic lights in this country, but also cheaper.

[shanti]

81. which means

that YOU are contributing to the problem, dude! think about it.

[RagingInMiami]

92. I'm not the one complaining about the Mexicans

[Blue_In_AK]

58. I'm with you, Raging.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

44. Again, why should our policies be based on "but they did it first!!"

And your argument is not true comparison.

I don't think anyone is advocating illegal immigration. However, the people to blame are NOT the immigrants. Poor and desperate people do as poor and desperate people do. Thus, I think most peope are just asking for recognition that these people are human and not just objects that can be shifted around. Further, it would have to be a pretty stupid kid to think that compassion like that equals "it's ok to break the law".

[mondo joe]

49. But actually there HAVE been numerous posts advocating totally

open borders, or at least totally open to Mexico.

And the law is just or necessary, or it's not - and if it's just or necessary then it has to be upheld.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

61. I think then, that tensions are just running too high now.

As QC said, one side calls the other a name, the other side retaliates, etc. etc etc. Not to mention, there are definitely trolls stirring the pot.

Speaking solely for myself, I think that, yes, the law needs to be upheld. But it needs to be reviewed and changed. However, I can't think of punishing people who just do as thousands of years of evolution have taught them--self preservation.

[shanti]

80. it's not "support"!!!!

jesus christ on a crutch! it's the bottom line! you have to see the bottom line!

[Queen Jane]

83. this makes me sad.

Because something is law doesn't make it right. Liberals used to know that, and that's one of the parts of our history that makes me most proud. Do you know how restrictive (not to mention racist) U.S. immigration laws are now? I have a friend who thought about applying to live here and was unable to make it work legally, and she's English, for god's sake.

Personally, I support changing immigration laws over breaking them, but if a law is immoral...yeah, I'm ok with that. And it doesn't make me mindless. Anyone who thinks the two are contradictory should read some history. Start with the American civil rights movement, for one.

And if it isn't about "poor struggling Mexicans" (and others) looking for a better life, what the hell *is* it about? And what exactly, then, does this country stand for?

Excuse me, *used to* stand for.

I should say that this is NOT an attack on the poster I'm replying to, but more a response to this general position. I apologize for using your post as a catalyst.

[shanti]

85. again, it's not about the "law"

it's about corporations and the dollar bottom line. if your children are hungry, you will do ANYTHING to feed them. they are doing just that.

[Queen Jane]

89. yes, exactly. (nt)

[Maru Kitteh]

104. Yes you are ENTIRELY correct BUT we will not solve this with

free-for-all open borders that let everyone in ILLEGALY because that is EXACTLY what the mega-corps, the FUCKING meat industry and the rest of the ruling class want. They want SLAVE wage labor without all the bother of benifits, insurance, etc. THEY WANT DISPOSABLE PEOPLE. May I say this one more time? THEY WANT DISPOSABLE PEOPLE.

None of this is right.

[Cobalt Violet]

26. the past forty plus years have been an amazing time of plenty for all of u

No they haven't been. Not ALL of us. Don't you mean you?

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

29. Flag washer here

I'm not brainwashed into flag waving, so I'm with you.

The immigration issue is being used like Hitler used the economic
woes against Jews in Germany.

We can't stop people from coming to this country.

The reason for them coming here must be addressed.

Why the heck are things so bad in their country?

Why are wages so low in their country?

You don't see folks fleeing Canada to come here to work.

The real issue is not being addressed, and this issue is being used to
drum up alot of hate, and also provide cheap labor for Bush's cronies.

This issue is to make a scapegoat of the immigrants.

[Atman]

41. Many of our largest corporations moved their factories to Mexico

They moved onto the best land, forced out the locals, then hired them at slave wages. Then they shipped their profits back to their shareholders, CEO's and Cayman Island accounts, but did NOTHING to upgrade the way of life in the communities they suck dry. The common thread here, over and over, ARE THE CORPORATIONS.

It is unfortunate that so many think the issue is that people like me "hate immigrants" or anything of the sort. Why can't you accept that maybe it really is just an issue of LAWS and ILLEGAL ACTIVITY? The corporations may be acting criminally, but only on a moral level...what they are doing is perfectly legal. It shouldn't be. And what immigrants are doing when they sneak across our borders is ILLEGAL.

The whole system is fucked up. The ranter in questions wants to blame those among us who are simply wanting the laws to be enforced, instead of focusing their rants against a completely fucked up corporatocracy.

[shanti]

84. many of these people who are

scapegoating the illegals are only just seeing this. californians have EXPERIENCED IT for at least 40 years or more. we KNOW what is going on here!!!

[Katherine Brengle]

34. tj, I am very proud of you...

... for saying what needed to be said.

My stand is that, yes, "illegal" immigration is wrong. It is wrong because it should not be a legal matter to relocate oneself to another location.

We have sectioned off this beautiful planet and turned it into lots to be bought and sold and dirtied and repossessed...

What right do we have to say who may step where? How did we get to this place, this terrible selfish horrible messy disgusting sad sad sad sad sad place?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brokensymmetry]

36. Be careful what you wish for.

I strongly suspect that we'll see the collapse you speak of. When that happens, we'll see lots of desperate people doing lots of desperate things - and it won't be thousands or millions. No, it will be billions. And they will want what you have; for you see, from their perspective, we are all fabulously rich. In their need, they will take all you can give - and more besides.

Remember, winter comes, and not just to one nation at a time. Sometimes, a wall between those who have and those who have not is needed if any are to survive. One need look no further than the Norse Greenland colony, written of by Dr. Diamond. Or consider the Maya during their great drought.

I think we should all be careful of karma; sometimes it comes quickly, and in the form of of getting the consequences of what we wish for. Sometimes it is a test of what we advocate and say we want. So I am rather cautious about invoking it, you see. Are you ready for such a test? I know that I am not; I know that I do not desire it.

[guruoo]

37. I guarantee you that playin that "bigotry" card....

will hurt the cause for a fair immigration policy.

[EFerrari]

53. Sometimes bigotry isn't a card, it's just bigotry. n/t

[QC]

63. Let's see how it plays out in the fall.

Personally, having watched the goopers in action all these years, I expect them to smear us as the pro-illegal immigration party and keep control of Congress as a result. We privileged, enlightened, sensitive souls at DU might ridicule illegal immigration and flags and all that, but the larger public does not.

[mondo joe]

68. "Some people say..." right out of the GOP swiftboating handbook.

Oblique implications and indirect smears.

Nice.

[EFerrari]

69. I've already said this to you once, mondo.

I'm tired of the overt racism and xenophobia too.

Nothing oblique or misdirected about it.

[mondo joe]

71. If you think there's overt racism here please point it out.

Thank you.

[Elwood P Dowd]

98. Mondo, anyone that doesn't agree with her is a racist.

The repukes even resorted to the racist card when the NAFTA fight was going down to the wire in November, 1993.

[mondo joe]

102. I dunno. She keeps saying she is willing to call out racism, she says

there is all this racism on the topic, but keeps on not calling it out.

[jonnyblitz]

39. damn. great post!

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Blue_In_AK]

51. Thank you...

There, but for the grace of God....

[QC]

103. Looks like another piece of hit 'n run flamebait.

Throw the turd into the punchbowl and scurry away.

[AusGail]

105. My sentiments exactly

If 1st world countries didn't strip 3rd world countries of all their natural resources, then illegal immigration may not be such a big issue. Remember the original reason for Bush invading Iraq. He wanted the oil.

[leftstreet]

107. Pffft.

There's something very ...unattractive... in rallying Americans with the notion that only THEY can save the world. As if the "poor" and the rabbled masses of struggling labor around the world are just waiting to be rescued; too clueless or lazy to come together for change.
:eyes:

By this summer, every major Latin American nation but Colombia is likely to be run by elected leaders with stronger backgrounds in Marx than free markets. If Cold War-era domino theory has been a bust elsewhere, it's working in Latin America.

Late last year, Bolivian voters overwhelmingly elected as president former coca-grower Evo Morales, founder of Bolivia's Movement Toward Socialism party, who fancies himself a nightmare for the Bush administration.

Then, in January, Chilean voters chose socialist candidate Michele Bachelet, a torture victim of the Pinochet regime, as the nation's first woman president. Leftists now rule as well in Venezuela, Uruguay, Brazil and Argentina, and are leading in election campaigns in Peru and in Mexico, the region's electoral grand prize. Even recycled Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega -- "a hoodlum," according to Roger Noriega, formerly the U.S.'s top Latin America official -- appears poised for a possible comeback when Nicaraguan voters go to the polls in November.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/26/INGFRHSVGT1.DTL

Maybe it's time for THEM to show US the way?

[Moderator]

124. locking

flamebait