OUTRAGEOUS: BIBLES IN CLASSROOMS,TEN COMMANDMENTS IN COURTHOUSES

[Jon8503]

Received this email from DefCon:

Dear Jon,

It's outrageous. The religious right just nabbed two shocking victories in Georgia: they're on their way to putting Bibles in classrooms and the Ten Commandments in public buildings.

That's right, the Georgia legislature passed a bill earlier this week that will create state-funded Bible classes in Georgia public schools. And just a few days later, they passed legislation that will put the Ten Commandments in county buildings. Both bills are now headed to Governor Sonny Perdue for final approval.

Georgia needs to know that we're watching and will do whatever it takes to stop these blatant assaults on the separation of church and state. Don't waste a minute -- click here to tell Gov. Perdue to veto these bills.

For years we've known that the religious right will stop at nothing to push their theology in the public square. These aggressive efforts in Georgia show that the religious right is only getting bolder.

The Bibles in schools bill is particularly shocking. The bill includes a requirement that the Bible act as the core textbook for these new courses, which is clearly unconstitutional. You might remember that a federal judge last year ordered Georgia's Cobb County school district to remove stickers from science books that questioned evolution. The court ruling was an important victory for science. However, the passage of these bills once again puts Georgia in the crosshairs of the religious right's assault on our Constitution.

Take action now and demand that Gov. Perdue defend the Constitution and Georgia's citizens from this attack on our freedoms.

http://ga3.org/campaign/ga_bible/wkibnnb225bwjt8?

Thank you,

Your Friends at DefConAmerica.org

P.S. Stay tuned to the DefCon Blog for updates on this fight

[Laelth]

1. Disgusting, isn't it?

Lots of useful stuff the legislature could have done. Instead, they pander to the religious right. The Georgia Supreme Court is likely to rule both measures unconstitutional if they're ever challenged. The Repuke legislators were just collecting votes and building a wedge issue (same old story).

:mad:

-Laelth

[Ioo]

16. Senate ***Democrats*** propose Bible class for public schools

I think you guys are making way more of this than need be...

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/13655223.htm


Reason #231 Why the Right does so well as to paint us anti-any-faith

[burned]

23. just because a dem does it

doesn't make it okay.
Especially a GA. dem pandering to a red state in an election year.

[Laelth]

26. Point of fact.

The Dems. in the GA leg. did propose a course in the Bible (an elective, using a sophisticated, liberal textbook). They did so in an effort to head off the Repukes who were considering another measure. The Repuke measure passed, and it bears little relationship to the bill proposed by the Dems. The text for the Repuke class is going to be the Bible, itself.

-Laelth

[kenny blankenship]

27. Wow even better!

Let's not have any more bullshit talk about this move being anything but religious symbolism demanded as obeisance and sacrifice to the 3headed Xtian God--the "obeisance" of the state before the superior authority of the CHRISTIAN church, and the "sacrifice" being your children, your money and your rights.

[cali]

2. I wish they'd ratchet down the rhetoric.

The truth is the course that Georgia schools will putatively be offering is, as I understand it, a bible as lit, elective course. Personally, I'm not to threatened by it. Hell, I took such a course in high school, and as I was raised without any religious influence (well, except for my father's decades long obsession with Gilgamesh), it provided me with some much appreciated knowledge. I'm less happy with the ten commandments thing, but hopeful that it won't stand up to constitutional scrutiny.

[countingbluecars]

3. Who will be teaching such a course-

the English teacher or the local minister?

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. If the local minister has a teaching certificate . . .

I don't know about where you teach, but there are a ton of ordained ministers who are also certified teachers in my district. And I can't begin to count the number of minister's wives I have taught with over the years.

[countingbluecars]

14. Oh my,

what a Pandora's box this is!

[burned]

4. The bible courses are electives

One on the new testament and one on the old. They are not required courses. However the state does have to incvest a bunch of time and money in developing a curriculum, buying the texts, and training teachers.
I have no doubt that the minute they appear on the elective list, several thousand parents will initiate lawsuits.
I'm actually looking forward to the show.

[Jon8503]

9. However, even if they are electives, they do not belong in the schools

for teaching. It used to be this was not even an issue as everyone understood the separation of "church & state". Those are matters to be taught in church, religious organizations, at home etc. It used to be politics was never brought up in the church at the pulpit, you went to church to worship. Conservatives, liberals, republicans, democrats, muslims, whoever was free to worship as they pleased. Now this.

Electives, non-electives, bible courses should stay out of the schools period.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. I think courses on religious studies are very appropriate

However, they should be comprehensive and cover ALL religions, not just Christianity.

[Jon8503]

17. Well, what religions do you think it will be when it is state funded

bibles & bible classes going into the classrooms. It really is probably not going to make it. However, our classrooms have always been separated from the religious institutions and thankfully, they probably will stay that way except possibly extremely right wing controlled states.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I don't favor bible studies

unless they also offer Koran studies and Torrah studies - in the same course.

Whenever an idiot tells me we need prayer in school, I say sure, which prayer? Shall we stop six times a day for the Muslims to pray or only 4 times, assuming they will get the other two times in at home?

[Jon8503]

31. Somehow, I don't see the Koran or Torrah studies being offered here or

in Georgia. They are talking about the bible not the Koran. Why do you have to put an elective or non-elective course in a state school here anyway. Also, for those who know anything about the religious right, their goal is not to remain "elective". Their goal is a Theocracy State. Our education system is supposed to be factual studies not faith type studies of which there are plenty of opportunities for someone if they want these studies to go to an educational system that teaches them and they can get general education requirements as well. That is why we have religious schools. Also, that is why public education has always kept religion out of our educational systems.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. My point is that if you offer bible studies in a public school,

you also must offer Koran and Torrah studies. That would be the most 'legal' way to get around the separation of church and state issue. If those other classes are not offered, then I would think constitutional lawyers will have a field day.

[Jon8503]

40. OK, but my point is that no religious studies need to be offered in a

state public school system. It remains separate and as I have already stated, if they want their religious studies in addition to the regular curriculum, go to a religious institution and you can have all that. Also, you know the religious right in this country is not going to allow what you are saying.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Oh I don't support this nonsense

Sorry if you misunderstood. Your last sentence is my reasoning: "you know the religious right in this country is not going to allow what you are saying".

Legally, the only way we can provide any religious studies is if we allow ALL religious studies. So you want prayer in school? BRING IT ON! LOL

[Jon8503]

56. Already knew you didnt; seen enough of your posts just thought

you might be playing the devil's advocate game. Actually it is a good thing to look at both sides of an issue.

[earth mom]

51. You think they will offer instruction on Wicca?

Or Buddism? Or the Muslim faith? Don't make me laugh. :eyes:

Religion of any kind does not belong in PUBLIC schools. PERIOD. That's what PRIVATE schools are for. :grr:

[burned]

20. im right there with you.

just looking forward to the fight.
looking forward to the idiot dems and goopers jumping all over each other to undo it.

[Maddy McCall]

52. And if it's like the OT and NT classes at the community college in my...

neck of the woods, the instructor (usually the pastor of the church that the college prez attends) will begin class with, "How many of you have a personal relationship with God?"

[0007]

5. Isn't this Ralph Reed's territory?

[burned]

6. Ralph who?

That Abramoff crony running for lietenant governor?
He's laying low.
Hoping it will all go away.

Not
A
Chance.

Not even the good old boys want to touch him now.

[Ioo]

7. WAIT A SECOND AND READ NOW.

This was posted a week or so ago on this forum.

The Bible class that is given will be an elective that any student can take, but not a required course. This is fine. This is not forcing the bible to be taught, this is just an elective course...

As long as it is not required it is not unconstitutional.

Collages have all sorts of classes like this...

Please to not make something that is not.

I will look for the story and post the link

[Ioo]

8. Links

http://www.wtvm.com/Global/story.asp?S=4699888&nav=8fap

Whether or not bible classes will be taught in Georgia High Schools is left up to the Governor. If approved, high school students would have a new elective course to choose from.

Here is a story that is a little more critical...
http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/14235681.htm

In the blur of politics and prayer, Georgia is poised to become the first state in the nation to put legislative muscle behind teaching the Bible in public schools — a move expected to recharge the debate between church and state separation.

A bill that would sanction state-funded elective courses in Georgia public high schools goes before the state Senate this week for final passage. While a few other states offer similar classes, none does so with a law that specifically authorizes courses on the Bible.

[Jon8503]

10. Elective or whatever, bible courses do not belong in the state public

schools. If they want to teach these courses they can be taught at religious institutions where they belong.

[Ioo]

13. YOU ARE WRONG... State Collages have them all the time. Was Dem Bill!!!!

State Schools also have capus chaplels and so on...

IN FACT this bill was proposed by Democrats

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=146&topic_id=3121

Electives are just that, they are classes that students take if they have an intrest... not required.

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/13655223.htm

ATLANTA - Georgia public school students would be allowed to study the Bible under a plan proposed by Democrats in the state Senate on Wednesday.

The bill authorizes the state school board to approve an optional course that would teach about the Bible's influence on literature, art, culture and politics.

"As a history major, I understand very clearly the impact the Bible has had on society," said Sen. Tim Golden, of Valdosta, chairman of the Senate's Democratic caucus and the bill's sponsor. "It's had a huge impact."

The bill would allow for "nonsectarian, nonreligious academic study" of the Bible and would require it "be taught in an objective and nondevotional manner with no attempt made to indoctrinate students as to either the truth or falsity of the biblical materials."

Sen. Doug Stoner, D-Smyrna, a co-sponsor of the plan, said the Bible was a major influence on works from Shakespeare's plays to the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter From a Birmingham Jail," which quotes several Bible passages.

[Jon8503]

15. Maybe Georgia Democrats . N/T.

[burned]

22. college courses and grade school courses

are not comparable.
Whether they were dems or not doesn't matter. People that automatically assume it was the goopers don't live in Georgia.
Our congress people are all scared little bunnies.

[Chi-Town Exile]

50. I live in this Republican Hell-Hole of a state

and it is my understanding that this bill was introduced to stop the fundies from requiring bible study, prayers and all other kinds of fundie bullshit in the school.

Even if their intentions are good we know that the retarded brain-washed, brain-dead weirdos that teach in the schools will interject their Right-Wing crap.

Case in point, my son is in eighth grade and his Health teacher that was teaching Abstinence only bullshit told him that "Condoms don't work!" My son replied, "I'm sorry, you're wrong." They fought the entire time he was in that class. It's amazing that she gave him an "A" because he constantly challenged her.

Also, he fights regularly with the next generation of right-wing Nazi Morans in his Georgia History Studies every day. He has had to correct his teacher many many times about current events that she has got plain wrong! Actually, she loves him and loves how he gets the kids all riled up about politics. They act like he is going to hell, of course. His teacher did recommend him for Honors History, however! LOL

The Ten Commandments thing has blown my mind! Eventually, my husband and I have vowed to get the fuck out of this state. However, my son is going to a fantastic high school next year so we feel a little better, although there are many Morans surrounding us, there happens to be a Young Democrats group at his school. There's probably about 10 kids in the group and my son will be one of them! LOL

At least he has been taught well by his parents ... his favorites? Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy.

[Fountain79]

38. Just to play devil's advocate...

Would you have equal opposition to a class on the Qu'aran?

[burned]

19. "ALL SORTS OF CLASSES LIKE THIS"

exactly.

Grade school is not college.
When will the other religions be represented through electives?
What will the curriculum be? The text?
Who will teach it?
Who will pay for all of these new electives?

When all religions and their relationship to the history, art, and literature of the world are faithfully represented with our tax dollars, we can finally do away with those pesky P.E., music and art classes that none of the kids like anyway.

Or we could just offer ONE elective class on world religion. One text. One curriculum. One world.

[jsamuel]

61. the constitution doesn't differentiate between college and grade school

They both get federal/state money

[Occulus]

24. And how long do you think it will take before it IS required?

Do not make any mistake about this: the very religious always get their foot in the door in exactly this manner. They've been trying to do exactly this for a long, long time... far longer than I've been alive, actually.

The reason it's fine for colleges to do this is because college is not compulsory. No college student is a "captive audience"; they pay for the religion courses they take, but those courses are not requirements. I myself took a comparative religions course in college. Here's the difference, though:

Religionists and Christers (NOT to be confused with the religious, and with christians) will not allow anything other than their religion to be taught. You will not, for example, see any of the kids in Georgia reading about Shaka Zulu in an "elective" religion course, or Hinduism. Were either of those even attempted to be taught, the teacher making the attempt would very likely be utterly vilified. It will be christianity, and a certain "approved" brand of it at that, or it will be nothing.

You can absolutely forget about any sort of reference, even historical, to the various pagan faiths which gave rise to christianity. You won't learn that other religions have creations myths strikingly similar to that of christianity, and you won't learn how those religions influenced Western culture.

This is because the religionists and the christers won't let those materials be taught. Anything less than (their brand of) christianity is of satan to them. It's something we all ought to have understood by now: give these people so much as a microscopic fraction of a nanometer, and they will try their damndest to take a mile instead.

This will not stay an elective. They are perfectly willing to defy the law, and make christian studies a requirement for graduation, just to test things. Just to say, "Yeah? Whatcha gonna dooooo about it?"

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. But it involves public schools spending money on religious materials

If I posted a picture of Jesus on the wall in my classroom, I would be in HUGE trouble. This is a definite no-no. But now I see a public school district actually spending tax dollars on religious materials! I think this is a lot bigger issue than you may realize.

[Maddy McCall]

53. "Collages" [sic] DO have courses like this....

so why not let the student wait until college to take the course, where the student's exposure to other cultures and religions will be universal?

[kenny blankenship]

21. 2 days of every week are set aside for religious observance & instruction

but apparently that is not enough for some people.

I have little doubt that this elective will frequently be seen turning into a mini service and prayer meeting on campus, at taxpayers' expense.

If the justification is that well the Babble is important for book larnin' like Shakespeare, then why don't they just allocate more time to teaching Shakespeare? (This year we shall teach as an elective course, all the tragedies...) By the way, any school teaching Shakespeare can avail itself of annotated editions with all Biblical allusions fully footnoted and explained, and for that matter you'd do much more for students' understanding of Wild Bill if you taught them classical rhetoric instead. It's not that they don't get obscure allusions that's the big problem so much as that they cannot fit his sentence contructions into their 21st c. jumpcut, soundbyte, sampled streams o' consciousness; and there are far more puns on 16th c. gutter slang in Shakespeare to stump easy comprehension than there are Biblical references to unravel. If the Bible is important to history, and we are left to guess how that is so, since the speaker didn't clarify what he meant by that remark, why not just teach MORE history, for example an elective on the history of religious wars in Europe?
Is history what the politicians are concerned should be better understood and more thoroughly covered? Is it Shakespeare that they're worried isn't being taught well enough?
Oh, please.

This bill isn't about teaching more literature or more art (which is a subject which is completely missing from the curriculum in anything but name) nor is it about teaching history; this bill is about shoving religion into the public school curriculum and one religion in particular. It's about marking territory and making the state bow toward their God. Their God demands obeisance and sacrifice and they're going to show everyone who's Boss by shoehorning him in wherever anything of public importance takes place.

[stepnw1f]

25. By Legislating Religion They Will Turn-Off People

rather than attract folks, making their movement less acceptable as time goes on. Then again, fanatics of any kind don't really have the ability to know when enough is enough.

It seems these people have no concept of spirituality or Democracy itself. For if they did, they'd understand that both are principally voluntary and never forced. Forcing either will have the opposite effect.

[kenny blankenship]

29. They'll turn off some; but their job is to help divide the Saved

from the Damned--as they see it. So the existence of friction and rejection hardly deters them. They count on it and psychologically feed on it.

Forcing religion on everyone will turn off some people and eventually the friction will burn them up, but that doesn't mean the xtian cultitsts can't impose religious supremacy on the host society in varying forms for a long time to come. Look at Iran: religious leaders still in charge there a generation after the revolution against the Shah. Many people in Iran don't like theocracy, and even some devout observant Muslims there don't like it, but there it stays. For every person who is turned off by theocracy there are probably three more--what should we call them: centrists? traditionalists? Middle-of-the-roaders? IDIOTS?--who are cowed by its claims to all-encompassing authority (and that's not including the full-on, fringe nutcases who enthusiastically welcome or pursue theocracy)

[stepnw1f]

30. I Know This

So the existence of friction and rejection hardly deters them. That's another reason I call them fanatics. There are no boundaries for these crazy people. On the other hand, I'm not really concerned with how they feel, but instead am trying to adress the publics reaction. So far they are losing...

Once the public understands how entrenched the religious Taliban is in our government, then we will see a sea change like never before. The public is just starting to wake up.

[kenny blankenship]

34. I wish I could share that optimism

but I look at the examples of other theocracies and I think that we cannot count on theocratic mania to be a self-defeating movement. (Except over the very long term--and that could be said for anything.)

The experience of other countries also suggests to me that a highly mobilized theocratic minority can hold an entire nation hostage through the natural cowardice of majorities who're unaccustomed to questioning authority or defending principles before popular enthusiasms--people who defer to traditions and defer to people who claim to embody and speak for traditions.

If Jesus raised the price of gas like Lazarus, then you could expect a popular uprising.

[Bill McBlueState]

28. about the Bible elective

I have no problem with an elective course that teaches the Bible from a purely secular point of view, as the text that informs the religious beliefs of 85% of Americans. It also serves as source material for much of Western literature, drama, and even pop culture.

And as an atheist, I'll note that a leading "cause" of atheism is when people who are nominally Christian have a seat and *actually read* their holy book. The atrocities and contradictions in there would turn off almost anyone.

However, I seriously doubt that many high school and grade school teachers could teach the Bible from a purely secular point of view. This legislation just opens the door for stealth fundamentalists to start pushing their abhorrent views about the status of women, the nature of scientific inquiry, and pretty much everything else.

[Roland99]

36. That elective damn well better explain the Bible is based on Egyptian myth

That's a fact and to ignore that ignores the entire social, religious, economic, and political climate that surrounded the lives of the early Israelites and how and why the Bible was written the way it was.

[Fountain79]

39. Now who has the agenda? n/t

[Roland99]

42. WTF are you talking about?

[Kerrytravelers]

35. Looks like my family will never move to Georgia.

I feel sorry for all those poor innocent children who will be forced to listen to this fundy crap.

[burned]

37. technically

we should be legislating authorization for an elective on the study of Native American gods.
Why skip the beginnings if we're TRULY talking about the value of religios belief ONLY as it relates to American history and the arts?

Because we're only talking about the historically WHITE parts.

[mitchum]

41. Triumph of the Peckerwoods

[Maddy McCall]

54. :thumbsup:

[Sgent]

43. The Supreme Court, ACLU, & AU support secular Bible Classes

From: Religion In The Public Schools: A Joint Statement Of Current Law
<snip>

Teaching About Religion

5. Students may be taught about religion, but public schools may not teach religion. As the U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly said, "It might well be said that one's education is not complete without a study of comparative religion, or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization." It would be difficult to teach art, music, literature and most social studies without considering religious influences.

The history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible (or other scripture)-as-literature (either as a separate course or within some other existing course), are all permissible public school subjects. It is both permissible and desirable to teach objectively about the role of religion in the history of the United States and other countries. One can teach that the Pilgrims came to this country with a particular religious vision, that Catholics and others have been subject to persecution or that many of those participating in the abolitionist, women's suffrage and civil rights movements had religious motivations.

6. These same rules apply to the recurring controversy surrounding theories of evolution. Schools may teach about explanations of life on earth, including religious ones (such as "creationism"), in comparative religion or social studies classes. In science class, however, they may present only genuinely scientific critiques of, or evidence for, any explanation of life on earth, but not religious critiques (beliefs unverifiable by scientific methodology). Schools may not refuse to teach evolutionary theory in order to avoid giving offense to religion nor may they circumvent these rules by labeling as science an article of religious faith. Public schools must not teach as scientific fact or theory any religious doctrine, including "creationism," although any genuinely scientific evidence for or against any explanation of life may be taught. Just as they may neither advance nor inhibit any religious doctrine, teachers should not ridicule, for example, a student's religious explanation for life on earth.
<snip>
------------
American Civil Liberties Union
American Ethical Union
American Humanist Association
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
American Muslim Council
Americans for Religious Liberty
Americans United for Seperation of Church and State
Anti-Defamation League
Baptist Joint Committee
B'nai B'rith
Christian Legal Society
Christian Science Church
Church of Scientology International
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America,
Lutheran Office for Governmental Affairs
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot
Friends Committee on National Legislation
General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
Guru Gobind Singh Foundation
Interfaith Alliance
Interfaith Impact for Justice and Peace
National Association of Evangelicals
National Council of Churches
National Council of Jewish Women
National Jewish Community Relations Advisory Council (NJCRAC)
National Ministries, American Baptist Churches, USA
National Sikh Center
North American Council for Muslim Women
People for the American Way
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Union of American Hebrew Congregations
Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations
United Church of Christ, Office for Church in Society

[Maddy McCall]

55. Taught by professors well-versed in comparative religion.

This is a whole different ball game, and you are comparing apples to oranges.

[Sgent]

58. This statement

was issued specifically as guidance for public high schools and middle schools -- I'm not sure what college courses have to do with it.

[walldude]

45. It never ceases to amaze me how the fundies are so

desperate to belittle their religion by having it supported by the government.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. "The bible is a book with some beautiful poetry, a blood stained

history, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of 10,000 lies." Mark Twain

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Will they offer a course in snake-handling and call it zoology?

Or, a course in economics called "Passing the Basket"?

[earth mom]

48. The Constitution means nothing to these nut cases.

Pardon me, but isn't this a form of TREASON?!

:puke:

[Cleita]

49. This is bad but a bigger problem is the fact that these

congregations who didn't vote much in the past are now voting on single issues because their preachers are telling them whom and what to vote for.

If you go to any of the televangelist websites, there are articles and about politics and whom to vote for. I think it's time we let them know that they are in violation of the Constitution's stand on the separation of Church and State.

I believe that we should insist that our Congress represenatives address this by passing a law taking away the tax exempt status of any Church or religious organization that meddles in politics.

[Jon8503]

57. Second That Motion: N/T.

[happydreams]

59. I think that already happened to the Cretin Coalition. Didn't

Robertson get all pissed about this?

[NMMNG]

60. Where are the state funded classes on the Koran?

The Buddhist Sutras? The Torah? :shrug: We have to be fair here, you know.