School's 'Holocaust' Experiment Upsets Parents!!

[AGENDA21]

Several parents in Apopka, Fla., are upset over a surprise school "Holocaust" project that some say tormented children, according to a Local 6 News report.

Local 6 News reported that eighth-graders with last names beginning with L through Z at Apopka Memorial Middle School were given yellow five-pointed stars for Holocaust Remembrance Day. Other students were privileged, the report said.

Father John Tinnelly said his son was forced to stand in the back of the classroom and not allowed to sit because he was wearing the yellow star.

"He was forced to go to the back of the lunch line four times by an administrator," Tinnelly said.

Tinnelly said the experiment upset his child.

"He was crying," Tinnelly said. "I said, 'What are you crying about?' He said, 'Daddy, I was a Jew today.'

http://www.local6.com/news/8345157/detail.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Not a new idea at all.

This teacher did this many years ago to teach her kids about racism. She won several awards and there were a couple excellent documentaries made about her and this project.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In 1968 a school teacher decided to try a horrid experiment on her students. Her objective was to teach children that racism was unfair. The way she went about the experiment was to affect the children's lives - some of them forever.

In the late 60's there was much turmoil between blacks and whites. It was the era where times were changing and blacks were beginning to fight for their rights and many whites were extremely upset over the situation. In trying to teach her all-white classrooms about racial equality she ran into some hurdles since most of them had never seen a black person.

The teacher decided to play a pretty mean trick on the kids telling them that people with green or blue eyes were clever and most likely to succeed. She told them that those with green or blue eyes were superior to those with brown eyes. In addition, she told them, those with brown eyes were considered by many to be stupid, lazy, and untrustworthy. She put arm bands on the kids to distinguish which ones were the inferior beings. The brown-eyed students were not allowed to drink from the same water fountain and the blue and green-eyed kids were praised for being wonderful students.

Almost immediately the kids with blue or green eyes began to treat their brown-eyed classmates with disrespect and were even cruel. Previous best friends became worst enemies and other kids were left hurt and crying. The brown-eyed kids became more cowering and scared and even allowed the other students to treat them badly.

more . . . http://www.associatedcontent.com/content.cfm?content_type=article&content_type_id=8066

[sheelz]

274. We studied this experiment in psychology class.

I was told, by professors, that an experiment like this would never pass these days. Today, any research that involves human subjects must first be approved by a Human Subjects Committee. These reason/s are stated in the article:

"Although the experiment did prove that simple suggestions can cause us to deeply hate one another, for no reason, it was also a cruel and demonic experiment. Some of the relationships never healed, even after an explanation of the entire experiment was explained to the students. And some of these students, interviewed much later in life, revealed that this experiment impacted their entire lives - some in a negative way."

Some important questions need to be addressed.

Was this an experiment or a teacher's lesson?
Do teachers have to submit to an ethics committee to perform experiments on children?

[proud2BlibKansan]

289. It was a lesson

not an experiment.

She didn't treat the kids like lab rats. sheesh

[sheelz]

290. Experiments don't only happen on lab rats,...

I wonder if they withhold water from lab rats too?

[proud2BlibKansan]

309. She withheld water??

Gee the way I remember it is they had to use a different water fountain. That isn't quite the same as withholding water. :eyes:

[sheelz]

325. Water was withheld for the star "lesson"

From the article:

"They were told that they could not use the water fountains," Tinnely said. "There was even a sign supposedly at one water fountain (saying) if you're wearing a yellow star , you can't use this water fountain."

[proud2BlibKansan]

333. Well I am sure they got drinks when they got home

Going without a drink for a few hours isn't going to hurt them. I often do that myself. Kids aren't allowed to go get drinks anytime they want in any school I know of anyway.

[sheelz]

338. Perhaps,

they could have found other "privileges" to withhold than water in order to teach them a lesson. This "lesson" was poorly planned and executed without debriefing afterward.

[proud2BlibKansan]

340. Well I wouldn't have withheld water

But as I have said a couple times, I don't teach 8th grade, and I would hate for an 8th grade teacher to second guess something I did.

[sheelz]

343. Since when do teachers not second guess one another?

Because you teach another grade, doesn't mean you can't form your own opinion. Teachers disagree and bicker all the time. My best friend, a teacher, detest eating lunch in the teacher's lounge because of the bickering.

[proud2BlibKansan]

346. I have already said I would have done this differently

but I also think it is unfair for me to judge since I have no expertise at that level.

FYI, I don't usually eat in the teacher's lunchroom either. But I did today. I had to share this thread and man, was that entertaining.
:rofl:

[clmbohdem]

2. 8th grade might be too young

11th or 12th might be more appropriate

[Boredtodeath]

8. Never too young to understand racism

I taught my children to understand racism and all it's side effects at a very early age.

[THUNDER HANDS]

13. oh please

8th grade, you're out of middle school by then. You're about to go to high school. You're old enough to know (and feel) history.

I applaud this teacher.

[MiniMandaRuth]

61. I'm an 8th grader,

and I'm not out of middle school.

[clmbohdem]

64. I'm wrong.

My wife is a 4th grade teacher and said 8th grade is not too early to do this type of experiment.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

3. Hello! Mr. Tinnelly??????????

The point is to have the student experience, to some degree, what bigotry and prejudice FEELS like. You sir, are missing the point.......

[Neil Lisst]

4. that's only appropriate for college students, adults, not kids

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Its been done with kids before

and never before protested.... watch the documentary "the Wave" if you can get it

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Did you see my post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=821444&mesg_id=821465

What I find sad is that this teacher's work is hailed as exemplary teaching. She won awards and national attention for her experiment. Have we now gotten to the point where we are overprotecting our kids and preventing good educational experiences?

[sheelz]

286. Great....

Now they should try the The Milgram experiment (Obedience to Authority Study). Without student/parental notification of course. :sarcasm:

[Neil Lisst]

7. I've seen it. It's still not right to do with children, I don't care what

some public teacher thinks.

[Kerrytravelers]

11. Yeah, a guess a trained professional with five years of college and

a continuing educational requirement with classes and conferences really wouldn't know what they are talking about. Must be some whiny, unionized public school teacher. you know, they only work nine months a year and get paid way too much anyway.















I don't care what some public teacher thinks.

P.S. I'm a public school teacher. I have a Master's degree. I work more than nine months a year. I don't get paid that much but I love my kids and know what I'm doing, as any other professional knows their job. But thanks for the respect. One can disagree, but it seems whenever it is a teacher on disagrees with, we simply become "some teacher."

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Thanks for the backup, KT

:hug:

[Neil Lisst]

17. It's not the teacher's prerogative.

If the teacher owns a private school, the teacher can do as he or she wishes. But that's not the case. The teacher is an employee of the district, and as such, answers to the community and its standards.

A teacher who thinks this kind of maltreatment of children in the name of education is acceptable should be publicly admonished, if not fired.

Teachers work for us, not vice versa. Teachers do great work, but they're not free agents, setting their own agendas. And it doesn't matter what their credentials are, they don't have the right to tell the community what is and is not acceptable for the teaching of children.

The district will be lucky if it doesn't end up paying damages in settlement of numerous lawsuits for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

[K-W]

19. Yes, it is the teachers perogative.

The district will be lucky if it doesn't end up paying damages in settlement of numerous lawsuits for intentional infliction of emotional distress.

What on earth are you talking about? No community standards were violated, and no laws were broken. If parents want to sue because a holocaust lesson was unpleasant for their children, they can waste thier money.

[Neil Lisst]

23. I think you'll find the school district trustees and the parents disagree.

What I'm talking about is a lawsuit for damages. It doesn't require the permission of teachers or the district. It only requires parents willing to sue on behalf of their children. I'm sure getting a shrink to treat some of the kids would be easy, as would getting their expert opinion on causation and damages.

If the district doesn't address the issue, parents can.

I'm referring to a standard civil suit for damages. Negligence, etc.

And if they do sue, they will be paid by the district to settle.

[K-W]

25. Yes, the parents could file a frivolous lawsuit if they want.

If they want to waste thier money, that is thier business, but there is nothing actionable here and there are no damages to recover.

There is no issue for the district to address. Overprotective parents arent an issue that needs addressing.

Please show me a legal code that applies to this situation and gives the parents grounds to sue.

[Neil Lisst]

27. It wouldn't be frivolous. In fact, it's a sure fire winner.

Duty, Breach of duty, proximate cause, damages.

Game over. District loses.

These things are decided based upon law.

[countingbluecars]

31. What law is broken by

teaching kids about discrimination and prejudice. Certainly, the teacher used this activity as a springboard for discussion. I'm betting by the end of the activity the kids knew why their teacher planned this activity. I would question parents' motives for not building on this experience.

[Neil Lisst]

38. It's not a criminal violation, it's a basis of a civil cause of action.

Just a standard negligence lawsuit against a school district.

There are thousands of them every year, and they're based upon the law I have already referenced - the law of negligence as a civil cause of action. Defendant has a duty to plaintiff. Defendant breaches that duty. Plaintiff is harmed as a proximate cause of Defendant's actions. Plaintiff has damages. Defendant loses.

For those who are teachers, I would suggest you ask your district superintendent about negligence claims made against the district, and how much they cost each year.

[K-W]

41. Civil actions must be based on law just as much as criminal actions.

So I dont know why you keep bringing up the destinction. While you can sue anyone you want for any reason, if you want that lawsuit to go anywhere, it has to be based on tort law.

Just a standard negligence lawsuit against a school district.

Except that this is not a case of standard negligence.

There are thousands of them every year, and they're based upon the law I have already referenced - the law of negligence as a civil cause of action.

Which law? And where in this case do you see actionable negligence?

Defendant has a duty to plaintiff. Defendant breaches that duty. Plaintiff is harmed as a proximate cause of Defendant's actions. Plaintiff has damages. Defendant loses.

And I see nothing in this story that matches even your pseudo-legal definition.

For those who are teachers, I would suggest you ask your district superintendent about negligence claims made against the district, and how much they cost each year.

And then ask them how many of those cases resulted from scenarious like this one.

[Neil Lisst]

44. NEGLIGENCE, SCHOOL DISTRICTS, & DAMAGES

http://www.aboutautismlaw.com/suing_a_public_school_for_money_damages.html

Suing a Public School for Money Damages
The following article covers personal injury and negligence claims against a school, intentional torts such as assault and battery, sexual abuse, Claims Against a School for Thoughtless and Indifferent Actions, Discrimination in Use of Facilities, 1983 Claims, ADA and Section 504.

Personal Injury and Negligence Claims Against a School
To prove a case for negligence, a parent must show (1) the school had a legal duty to the child (2) the school breached the duty by failing to exercise a reasonable standard of care (3) and the breach was the proximate cause of (4) an injury or other damages.

=====================================================================

http://education.families.com/liability-of-school-districts-and-school-personnel-for-negligence-1472-1475-eoed

Liability of School Districts and School Personnel for Negligence
A tort is a civil wrong–a violation of a duty–that causes harm. In the U.S. judicial system, an individual who is injured by a breach of duty can sue the other person to collect compensation for that injury. There are basically three types of civil wrongs.

Intentional torts include trespass, assault, battery and defamation.
Unintentional torts include negligence and strict liability. Strict liability is when someone is held liable, even though they are not at fault. It is often used when an individual is engaged in an ultrahazardous activity.


================================================================

[K-W]

48. Thats a start I guess.

Where do you see actionable negligence in this case?

[Neil Lisst]

53. The project is intended to inflict emotional distress.

How many 8th graders are already taking meds for depression or some other problem?

There is a saying in law that the tortfeasor (the defendant) takes his victim as he finds him. That means if you mess with the head of a fragile 13 year old and he ends up having nightmares and requires additonal treatments, there may be liability. The issue is one of foreseeability. Is it reasonably foreseeable that some children will be emotionally troubled to the extent they require treatment?

For the record, it's not Republican attorneys who file these suits, it's Democrats. Republicans usually represent the district and any teachers sued, because they usually have the relationship with the district trustees and the insurance companies which issue the insurance policies that defend the district in the event of a negligence claim.

I promise you that I am not talking about anything that is not common knowledge at the district level. Civil lawsuits for negligent handling of students are a standard feature of the modern public school district.

[countingbluecars]

57. I wonder if I can still go back

and sue the Catholic school I went to. That whole hell thing sure inflicted emotional distress on me.

[Neil Lisst]

60. if you're still within two years of your 18th birthday, it's possible

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Yeah I would like to sue my 4th grade teacher

Sr. Mary Evil. She was a mean one. Funny, though, I haven't yet needed any therapy after being subjected to her rants for an entire school year. But maybe if I can sue . . .

[countingbluecars]

82. LOL Mine was Sister Davita.

She was a mean one too! But no therapy needed here either. (I have to say, most of the nuns I had as teachers were sweet and seemed to enjoy teaching.)

[Zookeeper]

214. I had a nasty 4th grade teacher, also.

She really didn't like me and it was a miserable year. However, my 5th grade teacher was the opposite and my experience was wonderful. What did I learn? Some people are nice, some aren't. Some people like me, some don't. And there are some things you have no control over, so stay strong because this too shall pass.

Back to the OP: When I read the article I thought it must be a class of 3rd graders. "Daddy, (sob) I had to be a Jew, today!" EIGHTH GRADE?!? In our school district the kids learn about the holocaust in the 6th grade.

[K-W]

71. By that logic simply reading a book on the holocaust could be actionable.

What if a depressed 8th grader reads "Night"? Wouldnt it be reasonable to expect that learning about the holocaust might worsen his depression and lead to him needing treatment?

So I guess schools can only give students happy assignments covering happy subjects or they can be sued.

[nadinbrzezinski]

314. Welcome to the New America

where we are only allowd to think happy thoughts!

Isn't that a book?

[Blue_Tires]

275. "The project is intended to inflict emotional distress."

Believe it or not, I've heard that exact arguement about DodgeBall or any other P.E. game where teams of winners/losers are declared...

[Kerrytravelers]

96. Do you even know what a 504 is? Is doesn't appear so...

A 504 is in regards to special needs, be it allowed tardies do to a broken leg to the accommodation/modification provided in daily classroom settings and Special Education. 504s can be temporary or permanent. It has nothing to do with the teacher teaching the prejudice lesson.

Ooop... looks like you have a teacher here who actually deals with 504s on a daily basis.

[Neil Lisst]

104. It stated clearly the general principles of negligence.

And that's why I posted it. It had a simple explanation of the nature of negligence cases. It happened to be at a site devoted to special needs, but the same material can be found at hundreds of sites, which you would see for yourself if you did the search I asked you to do.

[Kerrytravelers]

108. That's funny. I work with Special Needs kids. KNow Ed Code forward and

backward. Still waiting for something sensible from you.

Won't hold my breath.

[proud2BlibKansan]

192. I can't even imagine writing a 504 for a kid whose feewings are hurt.

I can't wait to tell this story at lunch tomorrow.

:rofl:

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. You are arguing with teachers who definitely know the law

Give it up. You are just looking foolish now.

[Neil Lisst]

207. No, I'm not.

You definitely do not know the law of negligence. It's an 8 hour freshlaw course that takes a year, and that's just the intro course. Even those students don't understand it when they finish it, but at least they have some concept of it.

You seem to believe that this is covered in some area in which you teach. It isn't.

Duty
Breach of Duty
Proximate Cause
Damages

[proud2BlibKansan]

218. You have obviously had zero training in special ed law

or education law. You are quoting laws that clearly don't apply to this situation. Any lawyer would laugh you out the door.

And yes, I do know ed law and so does KerryTravelers. We both have, as she tried to tell you, many many years of education, many courses in ed law and years of experience working with kids and parents. You are clearly out of your league here. 504 law does not apply to this situation and neither does IDEA (special ed law) unless you can prove that kids with disabilities were EXCLUDED from this activity.

[Neil Lisst]

224. Please.

This case has nothing to do with Special Ed law. ZERO.

I gave you the elements of NEGLIGENCE, which are found in all kinds of lawsuits, including those regarding some the mishandling or mistreatment of special ed students.

Please, get a lawyer and see if they think I'm off base. Arguing with a special ed teacher about negligence law is, frankly, a waste of time, so I'll stop trying to explain it to you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

226. Please! You are the one who brought special ed law into this discussion!!

Are you an attorney?

Are you a teacher?

If not you have no expertise. You have already proven you don't know what you are talking about.

[Neil Lisst]

227. NO, I brought the law of negligence into this discussion.

Yes, I'm an attorney. I wouldn't be explaining the law of negligence, otherwise.

DUTY
BREACH OF DUTY
PROXIMATE CAUSE
DAMAGES

Causes of action can be state law or federal law based. If the case involves a special ed student, that may provide remedies that are based upon either federal or state law. But we are not dealing with special ed students. We're dealing with ordinary students.

The principal causes of action in the Apopka school matter arise under state law and the common law as it applies in that state. Florida probably has an Educaton Code which has some applicable provisions, and that will be up to Florida lawyers to decide. But the general law of negligence will apply, whether codified or not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

230. Did you not post THIS?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=821444&mesg_id=822289

You clearly have very little understanding of education law since you quoted the ADA 504 law, which DOES NOT APPLY HERE.

I am done with you. I know if I ever need an attorney, I won't be calling you.

[Neil Lisst]

233. The law of negligence can be made applicable by federal statutes.

And as I have told you no less than 10 times, I was giving you the ELEMENTS OF NEGLIGENCE.

You're just mad because I don't agree with you, and you're obsessed with telling me about it.

I can and have explained it to you repeatedly, but I can't understand it for you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

347. The only thing you have made clear

is what you don't know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

188. LOL a 504 is legal protection for kids with disabilities!!

It doesn't protect every child in the school from 'harmful activities'. We just put a kid on a 504 this last week because his vision is terrible; he needs glasses but we can't get Mom to take him to the eye doctor. So he now has a 504 which allows us to read material to him (like state tests) that he can't see. We have another kid on a 504 because he is in a wheelchair and needs to use the elevator. You can't claim 504 protection because your feewings are hurt over a school activity! LOL

You are way out of your league here.

[countingbluecars]

45. I don't doubt that frivolous

lawsuits are filed against school systems-especially considering the right wing agenda to destroy the public school system. I see no negligence in teaching these eight graders this lesson on discrimination.

[K-W]

33. You still havent shown what law applies here.

Duty, Breach of duty, proximate cause, damages.

A series of vague legal terms... thats helpful.

Game over. District loses.

I hope you arent a judge.

These things are decided based upon law.

Indeed, now SHOW ME THE LAW that makes this actionable.

[Neil Lisst]

39. Instead of my trying to convince you, just ask your district.

They can explain what I've said.

I gave you the elements required to make a plaintiff's civil case against a defendant. Look up NEGLIGENCE, SCHOOL DISTRICTS, DAMAGES, and I'm sure you'll have all the references needed.

I'm not asking you to believe to me. I'm stating my opinion on this topic, and asking you to verify it for yourself.

[K-W]

43. So you cant backup your own argument.

But if I go on a research project, you are sure I will find you were right...

Thats nice.

I gave you the elements required to make a plaintiff's civil case against a defendant. Look up NEGLIGENCE, SCHOOL DISTRICTS, DAMAGES, and I'm sure you'll have all the references needed.

You have given me no elements. You have not given me the law, you have not given me case law, you have not even provided a legal argument for how anything in this story fits into the law. You have just made claims and then told me that I must go reasearch them myself for verification.

As much as enjoy doing your work for you, excuse me if I dont.

[Neil Lisst]

49. it's the law of negligence and tort, largely developed by common law

http://www.aboutautismlaw.com/suing_a_public_school_for_money_damages.html

Suing a Public School for Money Damages
The following article covers personal injury and negligence claims against a school, intentional torts such as assault and battery, sexual abuse, Claims Against a School for Thoughtless and Indifferent Actions, Discrimination in Use of Facilities, 1983 Claims, ADA and Section 504.

Personal Injury and Negligence Claims Against a School
To prove a case for negligence, a parent must show (1) the school had a legal duty to the child (2) the school breached the duty by failing to exercise a reasonable standard of care (3) and the breach was the proximate cause of (4) an injury or other damages.

http://education.families.com/liability-of-school-districts-and-school-personnel-for-negligence-1472-1475-eoed

Liability of School Districts and School Personnel for Negligence
A tort is a civil wrong–a violation of a duty–that causes harm. In the U.S. judicial system, an individual who is injured by a breach of duty can sue the other person to collect compensation for that injury. There are basically three types of civil wrongs.

Intentional torts include trespass, assault, battery and defamation.
Unintentional torts include negligence and strict liability. Strict liability is when someone is held liable, even though they are not at fault. It is often used when an individual is engaged in an ultrahazardous activity.

[K-W]

51. Ignore, dupe.

No point having the same discussion twice.

[Kerrytravelers]

99. Why are you citing Special Education law?

Autism is covered under Special Education. Was this a special needs classroom? Was it blended inclusion or special day class? Was there a 504 or an IEP in place prior to the lesson? What goals did it prevent the special ed student from reaching? Which 504 accommodations and modification did it violate?

Special Education law has nothing to do with this. Looks like you have no argument... but good try. :eyes:

[xmas74]

151. I was trying to figure out the same thing.

I work in mental health and my best friend is a spec ed teacher. I passed this thread along to her and she doesn't understand why Spec Ed laws are being quoted either.

The two are quite different in practice, as we both know.

[Kerrytravelers]

153. This has been one of the dumbest threads ever.

It's startling what kind of responses I've seen here because one eighth grader goes home and cries.

There have been all kinds of assumptions abut the set-up and follow-up of the lesson. It's funny. the two districts I've taught in have been doing this for YEARS, and there has never been one lawsuit in regards to any of the simulations. Maybe the teacher didn't do a great job. So... work to make the lesson better for next year. Why are so many parents so quick to sue? And over what?!?! :eyes:




Edited for word error.

[xmas74]

159. We did an experiment like this in the 80's when I was in 8th

grade. We did the brown/blue eye experiment. In our case it was brown eyes who were considered to be more intelligent and were given more freedoms.

I was 13 and I have grey eyes. I was lumped in w/ the blue eyed group. We spent the whole day having to use separate restrooms, separate water fountains, sitting in a separate area of the cafeteria, sitting in the back of the class, etc.

At the age of 13 I understood what this was about. They didn't tell us it was an experiment until 2 in the afternoon. We made it through the day and, for the last hour, we discussed how we felt about it. Looking back, I realize that the discussion was insightful and that the kids did learn from it.

As an adult I work in community group homes w/ the mentally challenged. Every time we take a trip to Walmart and hear comments coming from some of these kids' mouths I wish they still did experiments like this in school.

Thirteen is old enough to learn what discrimination is like firsthand. Most of the comments at places like Walmart and the movie theaters are from kids younger than that. Maybe if they knew what it was really like they'd stop the comments.

[Kerrytravelers]

164. This is exactly why we being these kind of simulations very early.

It's in the curriculum, but most people don't even bother to understand this before they fly off the handle. The curriculum is available for review and negotiation at any time. All a parent has to do is file a request with the school district.

[proud2BlibKansan]

206. Well if special ed kids were involved . . .

Even then, this doesn't come close to being a violation under IDEA. It would be if the special ed kids were excluded though. LOL

Hey xmas, pick up a KC paper on Wed. I was interviewed for an editorial on the antiwar movement here in KC. The reporter told me today I would be in Wed's paper - on the editorial page.
:woohoo:

[xmas74]

337. That's what I thought.

And I subscribe to the Star. I will definitely keep a look out!

[proud2BlibKansan]

204. Good call

One minor point - 504 is not really considered special ed law. At least not in my state. It is a completely separate action here. Regular ed supervises 504s. I am the only special ed teacher in a small elementary school. I help write 504s and sit on the school's 504 committee but I am not the responsible staff member - the counselor is. But it could be different in your state.

[Kerrytravelers]

236. It kind of goes back and forth depending on state and district.

My first district 504 wasn't with Special Ed, but in my current district, it is.

But, since it was mentioned here, I thought prudent to include that it deals with particular needs and has nothing to do with the situation discussed in this thread. An attorney that had dealt with school districts before would know that! :)

[Kerrytravelers]

89. Breach of duty... damages...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



You are too funny. You must have forgotten the :sarcasm: because there is no way upi can be serious. The right wingers love people like you who want to sue. you make their "trial lawyers and frivolous lawsuit cases" declaration much easier for the sheeple to believe.

If you tried to file a lawsuit like that in my district, you'd be laughed right out of town... and rightfully so. And I'm in one of the most liberal school districts possible. I guess our community actually has things worth suing over, like proper placement of special needs students, keeping in adherence to the Special Education laws of the state, racial equality in closing and opening schools, etc. Of course, my students face racism and discriminations every day of their lives, so an experiment like this would be encouraged and understood.

If a lawsuit against the district for teaching eight graders the reality of discrimination is a sure fire winner, I want to know where you live. Then, I want my family to move there so I can file some lawsuits and be rich.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Neil Lisst]

101. Lawyers and judges have no problem understanding it.

I can't speak for you or others. I can direct you to the law of negligence and give you my opinion, which you're free to listen to or ignore.

I suggest you see if you can find a lawyer who will rebut my assertions. They're sound.

[Kerrytravelers]

107. So, direct me. Can you do it without Special Ed law that doesn't apply?

And even Special Ed law doesn't cover this type of lesson unless there is a specific directive in the 504 or IEP.







Still waiting...

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Damages to what?

Their poor wittow feewings?

You do realize you share Tucker Bowtie Carlson's views on this topic? He covered this story the other night and was just as outraged as you are.

[Neil Lisst]

40. Damages to the kids. Psychiatrists may disagree with your view.

It's called damages when you have economic costs - such as treatment by shrinks and medications - and it's very real. It's the stuff of lawsuits nationwide.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Well, as several of us have tried to tell you, this is NOT damaging

to kids. It's also not a new idea, but one that has been around for a long time. It's called hands-on learning.

I also hereby challenge you to find one credible psychiatrist who would call this damaging.

[Neil Lisst]

59. Finding a credible psychiatrist is as easy as looking them up on the NET

and paying them a retainer.


I'm sure one could hire any one of these 42 listed to so opine.
http://www.almexperts.com/ExpertWitness/experts_and_consultants/1128652.html

It's easy to find expert witnesses on any topic, including this one. They're for hire.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. So hire one

You continue to post but refuse to back up what you are claiming. You also refuse to listen to several teachers on this thread who actually do know a bit about how to teach kids, what is abusive and what is not. We also could start a whole website detailing frivolous lawsuits threatened and filed by parents. I personally could write a book.

So find some proof, back up what you are claiming, or give it up.

[Neil Lisst]

79. I've provided you ample substantiation.

You choose to try to impose your view as a teacher on how the law of negligence applies.

I suggest you ask your district about it, and let them explain it to you further.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. No you haven't

You have not provided any evidence that shows this is negligence. That is your opinion. Since you are not an educator, I don't value it much. And I don't need to ask my district. I already posted that I am sure this would be okay, it is in our curriculum and parent notification would be required.

[Kerrytravelers]

103. You've linked to Special Education laws and in particular Autism.

There has yet to be one link that backs up anything you've written.

If you're going to flame, have at least one reputable source that is germaine that backs up something you've written.

[bpilgrim]

205. lol

thats a good one :rofl:

peace

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. If you have evidence that the trustees and parents do disagree,

then please share it here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

313. When they ask why history repeats itself

here is your answer, poor kids, never subject them to this?

When they ask why Johnny CAN'T read, here is your answer.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

35. And parents can see the curriculum whenever they want.

But of course they dont.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I would imagine they also have the chance to help write it

That's how it works where I teach. Curriculum is written by teams of administrators, teachers, parents and community members.

[Kerrytravelers]

124. It's the same where I am too, and the district I was in before, also.

It's like that most places, I believe.

Many parents don't bother participating in their kids education until it's time to complain.

[LostinVA]

318. I'm NOT a public school teacher, but I applaud what they do

For not enough pay, respect (see some posts on her), etc. And, always being secoond-guessed by political administrators!

[ScreamingMeemie]

354. You also don't seem to care what many other parents think...

I, the mother of a 10th grader and a second grader, just talked about this with my next door neighbor (she's an 8th grade teacher). We are both shocked at the fuss kicked up. No wonder so many kids are unprepared for the harsh realities of Life with parents such as this man.

[sheelz]

355. It's about informed consent

You consent, ok. End of story.

[ScreamingMeemie]

356. My father signed nothing...my father applauded when we did a slavery

lesson (two days) very much like this one 22 years ago...My how far this country has fallen.

[sheelz]

357. You're using a strawman....

Your beloved father had no grips about your slavery lesson, that's ok. The "blue eye, brown eye" experiment was very controversial in 1968 too. I would have hoped that the country would have progressed since 1968. But now they have taken a controversial experiment and made it worse.

I have concerns and so do others here on DU and at that school. Please don't minimize our concerns. They are valid concerns. Furthermore, it doesn't really matter how valid a person concern is. Everyone has the right to voice their concern. Whomever they express their concern to, I can only hope their concerns are heard. Millions of Jews/Gays/Liberals etc never got that opportunity.

I would rather have a concerned parent than one who is not concerned at all. I would rather have a parent who is interested and fully aware of all the details about a program rather than applaud the basic concept. I would rather have a parent help find a better method of teaching then someone who goes along with the program. I would rather have a parent ask questions like: What was it suppose to teach? Was it successful? What did the children learn? etc. Overall, I believe the exercise was poorly executed: without formal training, without oversight, without debriefing, and not successful.

As far as the country fallen? There are many reasons for the country falling other than the concern/s for this exercise.

[ScreamingMeemie]

358. My "beloved father".

did I say "beloved"...I didn't think so. My father did see me through primary, secondary and higher education as a hands on parent who allowed his children room to breathe. I do the same with my children.

Overall, I believe there are people on this thread willing to scream foul over anything...

I'm glad you have your concern. Please don't minimize mine...which is that you, and others, are overboard on your "horror" over a perfectly acceptable lesson. Egads...At the Holocaust Center here in MI, volunteers (yes I said unpaid volunteers) teach this very same lesson to busloads of middle and high schoolers...without one screaming parent. Go figure.


And, please don't make assumptions about my father, I'll try not to make assumptions about you.

[sheelz]

359. Ok, I'll retract "beloved" for

"My father, a true parent," but it sounds like a beloved statement to me. I hear your concern about others being concerned or as you say "willing to scream foul over anything" concern.

I'm also glad that I didn't have, "a true parent", like yours. I despise slavery and that's without having to go through any kind of exercise like that.

Perhaps, a true parent, will step forward and asked the Holocaust Center in Florida to provide volunteers to teach the lesson, so there will not be one screaming parent. But it is not possible because the Florida Holocaust Center said" We do not encourage nor train teachers to engage in simulation exercises."

So, what's a parent to do?

[progressivebydesign]

63. A middle schooler should be able to grasp that...

We did things like that back in the 70s in 7th grade, and NO ONE complained. Kids weren't so freakin' coddled. We're destroying our kids by hovering and attacking schools and plopping kids down in front of computers and tvs with NO understanding of the human condition.

Soo.... how old was Anne Frank?

[bpilgrim]

196. nonsense

peace

[Swamp Rat]

9. What the HELL???

You don't do this to CHILDREN! :grr:

Why do I keep seeing creepy stories about the Florida school system? What is going on there?

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. 8th graders are hardly children anymore

Its not like they were in 3rd grade.

[Swamp Rat]

21. "8th graders are hardly children anymore?!!?"

Well, let's let 'em vote, go to war, and get married then!

[K-W]

24. Probablty better than treating them like babies.

Children dont become more emotionally mature by being sheltered.

[Swamp Rat]

141. I hope you are not a teacher

:puke:

[progressivebydesign]

65. How old was Anne Frank?

Just wondering if she could have handled that lesson.

[Taxloss]

121. Well, there's the difference.

She didn't have the PTA looking out for her.

An excellent point.

[Swamp Rat]

140. Not old enough n/t

[laundry_queen]

70. Oh please.

When I was in 8th grade, not all that long ago, most kids either babysat on a regular basis, had a p/t job, had already lost their virginity and took care of themselves on most weekends when the parents had ball or hockey tournaments. We discussed the first Iraq war, second world war, the Holocaust and abortion and had debates on such subjects.
I find it disheartening (And I'm a parent!) that so many people give our teens such little credit. We coddle them as we do babies and then wonder why they don't move out until they're 35. :eyes:
Edited for dumb typo

[Swamp Rat]

139. Gross!!! So much for progressivism.

Stay out of the education! :puke:

[laundry_queen]

344. Stay out of the education?

Not sure what you meant.
You may not like what I said about 8th graders in my time, but it was reality. Many 8th graders are already making life altering decisions (like what subjects to take to get into the field they'll want to work in for the rest of their lives, or, again in my day, getting a learner's permit to drive, or yes, unfortunately, becoming sexually active.)
I stand by what I said. I have children, I protect them. However there is a difference between protecting and sheltering. Have you read "The Gift of Fear" or "Protecting the Gift" by Gavin DeBecker? I try and concentrate my protective instincts towards my kids on things that are truly important. This type of exercise would not be one of them. If I have done my job as a parent, then my child will know all about empathy, and will be able to understand the point of the exercise and will in turn, remember NOT to treat people how they were just treated. Seems simple to me. :shrug:

[BoneDaddy]

306. Balance

I think that 14 is not too young to make this experiment. Instead of knew jerk reaction to this kid's pain and an attempt to baby him, why not use this as a learning tool. life is hard and insights like this are valuable. I don't agree with mentally torturing a kid by carrying this experiment too far, but let's not the same mistake and attempt to wrap our kids in cotton and pretend life is Pleasantville. It is ugly and children need to be prepared if they are to survive.

[Kerrytravelers]

10. What a crybaby. This is a perfect example to show kids what racism is like

But hey, what do I know, I'm only a public school teacher who works in a very diverse school district. We actually had a white teacher write an internal memo saying that it is culturally unacceptable for Black children to succeed because their culture detests education. But there is not race problems, right? Nothing we need to deal with in the public schools.

I've taken classes as young as 5th grade to the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles. They can handle it. This 8th grader is being raised by parents who are in denial of the real world. Poor kid.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Amen!!

Wish I could nominate your post :yourock:

It is sad to me that we have come to this point in our society where we are so protective of our kids that we deprive them of very valuable, proven successful, lessons on racism and bigotry. I will never forget the first time I saw the Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes video back in the 70s. It really inspired me as a teacher as a great hands on way to teach kids an important concept.

The other point we teachers should make here is that kids can be incredibly cruel to each other. I have seen some horrific things at the elementary school level. All teachers can tell horrible stories of ways kids are cruel to each other. We absolutely have an obligation, IMO, to teach kids to be more tolerant of differences. They most definitely need to learn to get along with kids who are different than they are.

[Kerrytravelers]

111. Thank you very much.

What I see at the top of this thread, the need to sue and the glee in doing so is just terribly sad. No wonder education is in the crapper. Too many sue happy people and not enough common sense.

Thanks :hug:

[derby378]

175. The reason education is in the crapper...

...is because too many teachers turn children into guinea pigs for their own little pet projects and have completely forgotten how to teach students to read, write, speak fluently, calculate percentages and square roots, learn their nation's history, identify fossils under a microscope, etc. I'm not saying you're part of the problem, Kerrytravelers, but Jane Elliott most certainly is.

We send our children to school in order to prepare them for the adult world, not to turn them into a bunch of lab rats. That's not the teacher's perogative.

[Kerrytravelers]

239. To disagree with Jane Elliot is certainly valid.

It isn't disagreeing that drives me crazy. Disagreeing leads to great debate and improvement. It's the need to sue sue sue that changes the debate into a war- and in the end, the only losers are the kids.

[Nikki Stone1]

16. Hey, I think I remember that guy who wrote the letter. Was he from

Pasadena? He did lots of airtime on KFI a nunber of years ago.

[Kerrytravelers]

112. Yep. That's the guy.

And he's on the School Board now. :scared: And now, all of a suddenly, there is a move to close the school in the Black neighborhoods and open up more in the white neighborhoods.

[tishaLA]

114. I think you're right

John and Ken got lots of milage out of that bullshit.

[misternormal]

18. My hat is off in respect...

... to anyone that is a dedicated to teaching the children of this country as you seem to be.

I agree that it is NEVER too young to teach children about racism... I think they should be taught as soon as they realize that there are differences... That is what I did with MY 5 kids... And as far as I know, none of them are racists.

Kudos Kerrytravelers... Keep up the good work !!

[Kerrytravelers]

115. Thank you!

I've worked in K and up through middle school. Racism, prejudice and discrimination is something I always deal with.

I also teach blended inclusion, with special needs kids in with general education kids. We deal with discrimination a lot. I guess I am emotionally damaging my kids... :eyes: (see posts at top of thread...)

Thanks :hug:

[K-W]

22. I cant believe parents response isnt to help teach their child.

"Yes that did feel aweful didn't it, now think about all those people who had to live like that."

Of course learning about the holocaust is disturbing, but instead parants just want to shelter thier children. They probably dont have time to deal with thier childrens emotional maturation, much easier to raise them to be perpetually niave.

[Kerrytravelers]

118. We live in the time of coddled babies.

And I have to deal with that in the classroom.

Actually, I don't deal with it. I let parents know that I don't deal with coddling. This is how I am and how my classroom is. I say right up front that if this won't work for you, there is no hard feelings if you'd like your kid in another room. I'll even help facilitate the move. There is one teacher at our school who will take the coddled kids... but then ,they don't get to do things like field trips and such activities because she wouldn't want to hurt their sensibilities.

We have really cut down on coddling behavior. Word of mouth really spreads!


P.S. The kids in that teacher's room who aren't moved there because of coddling come with my class on the field trips, so they don't miss out on anything. We only had to do this maybe one or two school years and now, the principal has control of this parental-idiocy run amok.

[DetroitProle]

47. 8th grade...

An 8th grade-aged boy during World War II...a Jew...would have been worked to his death in a concentration camp. An 8th grade-aged German boy living in Berlin upon the Soviet seige would almost certainly have died fighting for Hitler.
Of course, I'm not advocating subjecting our children to cruelty.
But what a cozy life we lead in this country. If only that little brat knew what kids just like him, who may very well still alive(if they were fortunate), had to go through, he would probably be a richer and more well-rounded individual with a better understanding of the world and other people.
All this human suffering and he cries about using another drinking fountain. What a little bitch.

[Kerrytravelers]

122. The parents are doing far more harm than good.

Instead of making this a teachable moments, and then going to the teacher in private and talking about the lesson, they choose to make the teacher the enemy and their little baby the poor-put-upon one. Total wrong move. This kid is going to turn in to a whiny crybaby adult and have a hard time in reality. I have seen this over and over again in my teaching career.

[verse18]

352. A future Repug nt

[fortyfeetunder]

20. Two points of view.

Try telling that to children of color who've experienced these atrocities when they were young enough to remember injustice and intolerance. And I can guarantee those experiences were younger than 8th grade!

Now in the case of this particular experiment, were the parents briefed about this before it happened? Sounds like that was not communicated. I think teaching tolerance and civil rights should be a joint community effort.

[Fountain79]

26. As a teacher of 6, 7, 8 graders...

I would say this teacher's heart was in the right place but parental notification forms should have been sent out. I have seen mini-lessons like this that did not last the entire day.

[cali]

28. Agreed.

The only problem I have with this is that it's unneccessary to have this lesson go on for an entire day. One period in Social Studies is enough.

[walldude]

30. Hmmm.. My oldest is in 6th grade

and I think he could handle something like this. The fact that the kid came home crying means he LEARNED! It's also a lesson he will never forget. If you wait till college or adulthood to do something like this it won't mean anything, once you pass a certain age you become more set in your ways and the lesson wouldn't sink in nearly as well. I do think that the school should have done it twice so the kids who thought they were treated unfairly could have a chance at being the privileged and the ones who were privileged the first time could have a chance to understand what it was like to be the persecuted...

[Cleita]

37. That would have been a better way to do it.

I have seen it done just that way, with blue-eyed people being relegated to second class status and the brown eyed people having all the privilege. Then they switch it to brown-eyed people being the underclass and the blue-eyed people regaining their position of privilege.

I do think they shouldn't have used the Jewish emblem for this experiment. It was a little to close to the bone.

[Zookeeper]

216. Yes, they should have done it twice.

The more sensitive "privileged" kids probably understood the point. But, I'm sure there were plenty of privileged kids who didn't get it because they didn't suffer. They will now go on to become Republicans. :evilgrin:

[Cleita]

34. Racist people really don't like their racism pointed out to

them as I found out. However, we are never going to be a great nation again until we conquer this national personality flaw. Bush and Company would never have gotten a stranglehold on our government if this problem had been addressed. Instead the RW was able to get votes by appealing to the bigotry of a majority of American's latent sexism and racism.

[DetroitProle]

42. a good idea, EXCEPT

the Holocaust? The Holocaust may have been the lowest point of human history.
After the war, many artists and writers wrestled with the fact that human beings were capable of such atrocities. Many concluded that art could no longer exist, that civilization could no longer exist.
To turn the Holocaust into not using water fountains and sitting in the back of the room, I believe, minimalizes what may be the greatest atrocity of all time. It was certainly much darker than even wanton discrimination. It was genocide. This exercise misses that entirely, in my opinion.
Anti-Semitism? Yes. This was a fantastic exercise in the unfairness of anti-Semitism and descrimination. Of course, the Holocaust was much more than anti-Semitism.
I believe this would be much more appropriate exercise in historical anti-Semitism or racism. Show what segregation was like, or what it was like to be a Jew during other points of European history.
But the Holocaust? I don't know, to this day, if human beings can truly "teach", let alone reconvey what the Holocaust really meant in terms of human loss and suffering. 6 million human beings systematically killed- is a difficult concept for any intellect to grasp.
I certainly don't think this exercise adequately conveys that aspect of history. I think it is a good exercise, but left to, I dare say, lesser evils in human civilization. I say this as a student of history.

[K-W]

54. They never claim this replicates the holocaust.

The point is not that these students are going through a holocaust. In fact it is not specifically about the holocaust, it is about what happened before the holocaust, where people were identified as different and made into a lesser class. You can teach students the horrors of the holocaust but if we really want them to understand how it happened, you need to teach them how people can be dehumanized as the 'other'. A demonstration like this teaches that lesson dramatically when it is very difficult to simply explain it to students.

We do a disservice to those who died if we mystify the holocaust and treat it as something outside the realm of normal history. It doesnt minimize the holocaust to teach what happened and demostrate dehuminization to students. I think it would do a disservice to those who died if we didnt make every attempt to get students to understand those dynamics.

[DetroitProle]

144. yeah

I misunderstood slightly then. It's a valid lesson if it's demonstrating what happened before the Holocaust.

[Fleshdancer]

46. I like the concept

I go back and forth with separating the kids based on the first letter of their last name because I think it overlooks the race issue but then again, they would have to be separated based on something they couldn't control (as opposed to, say, the color of the shirt they were wearing that day). Literally separating the kids based on race might be too much for people to handle for this experiment though.

I hope there was a follow up the next day to this experiment. The point shouldn't be "I don't want to be a Jew" and if this is what the kids are getting out of it, then the school should rethink their strategy.

[northzax]

261. well that's the key, isn't it?

if this is a stand alone lesson, it's meaningless and frankly cruel. And yes, a kid who goes home from school crying about being persecuted didn't get the lesson. Without strong support and real backup teaching, nothing good is really served.

So yes, a kid who comes home from school crying because people were cruel to him was not well served by the lesson.

[Radical Activist]

50. Well that's the idea.

Maybe some of the rednecks will remember that before they decide to treat gay people or a person of color badly.

[mondo joe]

55. Respectfully, I don't think the idea is to send kids home crying.

I think the idea is to increase awareness annd understanding.

When I've seen these lessons done - partuicularly the brown/blue eyed one - people get very enmotional annd that's the learning opportunity. The group has a debrief time for sharing and explaining.

Maybe that happened here. Maybe it didn't. I can see how if poorly handled the lesson could backfire, even with the best intentions.

I guess the district will have to figure it out.

[misternormal]

56. By the time someone has labelled themselves...

... a redneck, the damage is done...

Hopefully this might catch some of them before they get that far.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. You get it

Good!

:)

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

88. Teach them while they're young and impressionable, I say.

[progressivebydesign]

62. Some parents are idiots apparently.

We studied the holocaust heavily in 7th grade, back in the 70's. We did many things like that to help us understand racism. An 8TH GRADER was CRYING??? Ummm... sounds like mommy and daddy have pretty much coddled these kids. SHeesh.. I thought at first this was about 4th graders, the way it was written. Middle school??? They were whining about this for Middle Schoolers?? 8th graders?? MY GOD! If kids at 13 or 14 can't handle something like this, then we're hopeless. My parents would have applauded this. Too many kids are so coddled now, and so drenched in popular culture that they have ZERO empathy. The child should have been crying because of the realization that Jews and Gypsies were actually treated like that, NOT because they had to stand in a corner. sheesh.

[mondo joe]

67. While this is a good and valuable lesson, what I'd say is that like

any lesson it can be mishandled.

I've seen this sort of thing done, and I've seen it done well. That included a considerable debrief for shared learning.

But I can imagine how easy it might be to handle it poorly and really screw it up by failing to get the learning part.

I say this as a gay man and a father whose children are Jewish - it's a good thing to do, when done properly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. To Those Who Think This Was Ok For 8th Graders,

I just want you to know that when my sons are in 8th grade, if a teacher or anyone put them through something like this and treated them this way, I'd have to restrain myself from going to that school and beating their fucking heads in.

This was bullshit. You don't ever treat kids that way for any damn reason. You won't want to see my wrath if someone pulls this shit on my kids.

[K-W]

73. So youd teach your kids that anger and violence are OK,

and that your 'wrath' is a good way to solve problems, but that learning what its like to be descriminated against is an outrage.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. I Didn't Say I'd Bring Them With Me When I Beat Their Fucking Heads In LOL

[K-W]

75. Oh, well then im sure it would be fine. EOM

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. For The Record I Didn't Say I'd Be Right To, But I'd Do It Anyway, Got It?

Sure, it wouldn't be right to beat someone's fucking head in, in response to them abusing my children. Ok. It isn't right. Bad lesson. Gotcha. But I'd bash their fucking heads in anyway k? :rofl:

[K-W]

78. I just appreciated the irony.

You would consider it abuse to your children for them to be involved in a exercise where they were descriminated against during school routines to teach them about descrimination, but apparently it wouldnt be abuse to teach them that violence is an appropriate response when you dont agree with someone.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

83. No, That Wouldn't Be Abuse.

I think that sentiment is ridiculous, actually. I will most definitely teach my kids to never take shit from anybody, but of course that phsycial intervention should only be used as a last resort.

In this case, I said I'd restrain myself, but that it would be hard. I would want to bash their fucking heads in, absolutely. But in the end I would probably just yell at them at the top of my lungs and make sure it is clear to them that there is NOT to be a fucking next time.

[K-W]

94. So its ok to call what the school did abuse.

But not your teaching your children that they should respond to percieved slights with rage and to verbally attack school administrators.

To be clear, I dont see either as abuse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

76. I know for a fact that if any teacher in my district wanted to do this,

he/she would have to send a notification to parents first. So parents like you could choose to have their kids go to the library or another area in school during this activity, or you could keep them home to play video games all day while their classmates are learning about the Holocaust.

As a parent myself, I would rather my kids be in class learning. But I respect your right to choose what is best for your own kids.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. For The Record,

This isn't about wanting to over coddle my kids or anything else. I think an hour experiment that dramatizes the point is fine. But I don't condone the lack of awareness to what they were doing, the lack of explanation of what the exercise for the day would be, and the fact that these kids dealt with the harassment for an entire day. Teaching a point is one thing and driving it home is ok too. But no kid at that age should have to endure an entire school day being belittled and abused even if it was for what was considered a worthy cause. Even as adults, if we had an entire work day, even as an exercise, where all of our coworkers and bosses belittled us unchecked without any way out, even we by the end of the day would probably want to collapse and break down.

I think the importance of the holocaust could be made far more easily then putting innocent kids through an entire day of this shit.

[Neil Lisst]

84. my thoughts as well

There are many activities where parents are required to give prior consent, and this should have been one of them. Also, there is a commercially available film of the prior project to which some have made reference, and that film could have been shown to lay the predicate for the project.

In any event, prior parental consent is critical.

[K-W]

86. Harassment? Abuse?

Nowhere in this article does it say that kids dealt with harassment for an entire day. Nowhere in this article does it say that they were belittled and abused by anyone much less both students and teachers.

All it says is that they had to sit in the back of class, couldnt use water fountains and had to go to the back of the lunch line.

I dont agree with how this was apparently done, nor do I think it was neccessary to teach the holocaust but that doesnt justify blowing this out of proportion.

My guess is that the people who were abused and harassed all day were the fat kids, the nerds, etc like always.

[LisaL]

92. WTF is this exercise was supposed to teach these children,

do tell? One kid told his father that the only thing he learned is that he didn't want to be Jewish. I would say, nice going, idiot administrators in school.

[K-W]

97. Rather obviously it teaches them about descrimination.

By demonstrating segregation.

Somehow I dont think that what one kid told his father is proof that nobody learned anything regardless, kids dont learn things all the time, its no reason not to try and teach it to them. I think this lesson (more competently done) could be very educational.

[LisaL]

98. Oh maybe it teaches them how to discriminate.

And if they really wanted to relive Holocaust, why didn't they march them in actual gas chambers? Now, that would have really thought them.
:sarcasm:

[K-W]

105. right... EOM

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

238. Yes, They Dealt With It The Entire Day.

And you really need to open your mind about how many forms abuse takes. It isn't just applied to physical acts, didn'cha hear?

And here's another article where you can deduce that it was in fact a full day experiment. I found it while applying myself to get as much information as possible in order to forge a more accurate opinion. Since you didn't, I'll provide the link for you.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/14237661.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Where does it say that parents weren't notified?

I also don't see where it says this was an all day activity. Maybe it is in the link. It wouldn't open for me.

[LisaL]

120. In the article. It says children didn't even know about it.

Because if they knew, it would make them "prepared". So, the school didn't notify the kids or the parents of their little experiment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

184. I can sort of understand not telling the kids

I wouldn't have done it that way but I don't teach middle school.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

235. It Was All Day Tuesday. It Was A 2 Day Experirment, With The Second Day

being for observations and comments of the first day. Here's an additional link for you :)

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/14237661.htm

[Neil Lisst]

81. That's exactly how it should have been. With prior parental consent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. And you are sure they didn't notify parents?

[Neil Lisst]

109. Yes, I'm sure. Because it's in the first sentence of the story.

Several parents in Apopka, Fla., are upset over a surprise school "Holocaust" project that some say tormented children, according to a Local 6 News report.

And later in the same story:

"Parents tell Local 6 they were not told prior to the school-wide experiment."

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. Well, they always claim they weren't notified

even when we do notify them. You would be amazed by how many parents don't read notes from school and how many kids never give them to their parents. Twice a year, we dismiss early for parent teacher conferences. It is on the district calendar and the school calendar and both are sent home. One is mailed. Then we send a note the day or so before the early dismissal. Yet, every single time we have a handful of kids left at school whose parents had no idea they got out early. And I can think of a couple situations we have discussed right here on DU where a parent claimed the school never said anything yet the school says yes they did.

[LisaL]

211. The article clearly states teachers didn't even tell the children,

cause that would spoil the surprise.

[proud2BlibKansan]

215. Telling the kids and telling the parents are two different actions.

[LisaL]

221. And the article clearly states neither the parents or the kids were

informed. I do not understand why you are unwilling to accept that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

222. I thought I already explained that parents always claim they weren't

informed when they are angry about a school activity. As far as not telling the kids, I don't disagree with that. I don't teach 8th grade so I can't speak from experience, but I am sure they had a good reason for not telling the kids. I do however, think they should have informed the parents.

[progressivebydesign]

319. you're a perfect example of what's wrong in schools today.

Mommy and Daddy to the rescue, huh? No wonder no one wants to teach.. too many special precious angels out there that cannot be made to feel uncomfortable for a day. God help the overprotected children when they try to go out into the real world... after drinking themselves to distraction in college (cuz they won't have to work while in college cuz Mommy and Daddy don't want them to be stressed out), they'll stumble into a job that the folks helped them get, and then they'll wake up at 26 and realize they don't fucking know how to live their own life or solve their own problems.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

336. Not Exactly Sure That Subjecting Them To A Full Day Of Abuse Is The Answer

to that, but to each their own. :eyes:

Feel free to have others abuse your kids as much as you want if that's your parental preference on how to teach them survival. I, however, will feel free to ALWAYS protect my children from abuse, where reasonably possible. As I said, to each their own. :hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

353. I'm glad you weren't my father when I participated (in 8th grade) in a

slavery lesson. My father, a true parent, applauded the school district...as did many others. You aren't doing your kids any favors.

[LisaL]

85. I think that bonkers. I would be extremely upset if the school

did that to my child.
What on Earth are they thinking?

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

90. I'm Jewish. When I was in middle school, kids were extremely

nasty to me. I experienced anti-semitism first hand. On the school bus, one of the kids used to call me "Hitler's experiment." Nice, huh?

I think this is the right age to teach this type of lesson.

Those who choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

[LisaL]

95. I am jewish too. And the only thing these kids learned

is that they didn't want to be jewish. I would say this so-called lesson thought them to be anti-semitic, and not the other way around. It is never a good idea to abuse someone, even if it is in the name of education. Furthermore, since they picked the names of "victims" by alphabet, it's entirely possible they stuck those yellow stars on children that actually were Jewish.
Having these kids to stay in the back of the class and not being able to use water fountains, and not being allowed in line because they were "jewish"-I find that extremely offensive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. My dad was a middle school history teacher

He told me that every couple years, he would start to hear anti-semitic talk from his students. So he would show them Anne Frank or another movie about the Holocaust. That usually ended the anti-semitic talk.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

More from the posted article...

Local 6 News aired a statement from The Holocaust Memorial Resource and Education Center of Florida; "Of course, we applaud Apopka (Memorial) Middle School's effort to engage in Holocaust education with the hope of a tolerance education component in the classroom. That is the mission of The Center to teach tolerance through Holocaust remembrance and education. However, we do not encourage nor train teachers to engage in simulation exercises."

Guthrie admitted that he would do some things differently in the exercise because of complaints but said some kids got the message, Reznick said.

"They need to know, we don't want history to repeat itself," Guthrie said.

______________________________________________________

I recall watching The Diary of Anne Frank in 8th grade.

[LisaL]

106. I see their lesson is having completely opposite effect of

what they intended, sorry.
You have a group singled out, and that group is discriminated against because they are "jewish". Does it tell to children that are not singled out that it's o'key to abuse "jewish" children? I mean, they didn't stick yellow stars on everyone, did they?
What if the school picked african-american children instead, and stuck them in the back of the class, and didn't allow them to use water fountains, in the name of teaching children about discrimination? Is having to discriminate against a group a good way to learn about discrimination? I think not.

[K-W]

110. So you think that teaching kids about segregation and racism

will make them want to segregate and be racist?

Where are you coming up with this?

Is seeing descrimination in action a good way to learn about it. YES.

[LisaL]

116. You can teach children about discrimination and racism

by showing them a movie or having them read a book. I see no educational point in picking a group of children and having others to discriminate against these children. The children themselves have said that the only thing learned was that they didn't want to be Jewish. How is that for a lesson?

[K-W]

125. Or you could teach them in many ways so as to reach them.

Including hands on learning.

First of all it doesnt say they had others descriminate against the students. It says that the school itself did the descrimination through seating assignments etc. It demonstrated descrimination, it didnt encourage students to descriminate.

The children themselves have said that the only thing learned was that they didn't want to be Jewish. How is that for a lesson?

No, ONE student apparently said that to his father which doesnt even prove that this is all that ONE student learned. It certainly doesnt show that all the students left thinking that.

Also, that is a part of the lesson. The student was put in the shoes of someone descriminated against and didnt like being there. Perhaps that student will be less likely to descriminate against Jewish people or others because he has some concept of how it feels to be descriminated against.

This was apparently not done in an effective way, but the concept for the lesson is a good one and not inherently abusive.

[LisaL]

129. Using your logic, students that were sitting in front of the class-

what did they learn? That it's fun to discriminate?
They split the kids, and if the group that was discriminated against learned that it's no fun to be discriminated against, what did the other group learned? Do tell.

[K-W]

131. No, that isnt my logic.

Not even close.

The students in the front of the class learn by observation what the student in the back of the class learns by direct experience.

Why split the kids? Because that is the only way to demonstrate segregation of course.

I cant begin to understand why you think students will want to descriminate when taught about descrimination. And couldnt the same thing happen with a book or movie?

[LisaL]

132. Not monsters. Normal children.

Numerous studies show that when one group is told they can discriminate against another group, the abuse can get really far.

[K-W]

134. No student was told they could discriminate as far as I know.

The experiment is not about encouraging students to descriminate and any school that did so would be obviously out of line. Its about letting the students see the effects of the simulated institutional descrimination.

[LisaL]

135. They picked a group of students, labeled them "jewish", stuck

yellow stars on them, and then wouldn't allow those students to sit in front of the class, stand in front of the line, or use the water fountain. I find that extremely offensive. As if they are saying that being jewish is something dirty and bad, and it's o'key to discriminate against a jewish person. Add to that the school most likely has actual jewish students. I wonder how they felt about this little experiment.

[K-W]

136. Only someone who misses the point of the exercise badly

could possibly think that it encourages descrimination.

They picked a group of students, labeled them "jewish", stuck yellow stars on them, and then wouldn't allow those students to sit in front of the class, stand in front of the line, or use the water fountain.

Right, they created artificial segregation to demonstrate descrimination.

I find that extremely offensive. As if they are saying that being jewish is something dirty and bad, and it's o'key to discriminate against a jewish person.

Except that isnt what they are saying. Nothing about this exercise says that being jewish is dirty or that descrimination is ok. The lesson does, in fact, teach the exact opposite.

Add to that the school most likely has actual jewish students. I wonder how they felt about this little experiment.

No idea how they felt, but presumably being at the school they wouldnt make the same error as you and think the school was endorsing descrimination. It would be rather obvious to them that descrimination was being taught as a bad thing, not a good thing.

[LisaL]

220. There is no point to that exercise, as far as I can tell.

They picked on a group of children. The others were privileged. They didn't even switch the groups so discriminated children could play a privileged role. They could never reproduce the Holocaust with their little role playing anyway. That stupid exercise is trivializing the experience of actual Holocaust victims, and upsets the children.

[countingbluecars]

117. A simulation like this is

a very effective way to open courageous conversation about discrimination. Most eighth graders I know are up to it.

[LisaL]

119. Just imagine what would happen if they actually decided

to burn some kids. The conversations it would spark. We would never hear the end of it. There are many ways to start conversations. Discriminating against a group of children is not the way to go.

[countingbluecars]

123. Give me a break.

Today wearing a star and being last in line. Tomorrow burning.

[LisaL]

127. I guess you didn't learn your lesson, did you? Cause that's

how it started in Germany.

[countingbluecars]

130. Thanks for the history lesson.

Your argument is absurd.

[Kerrytravelers]

133. countingbluecars- excellent.

I work with Black and Hispanic children. I also work with Special Needs kids.

I suppose when I talk about discrimination, I really want to return to segregation. When I have simulations in class and let the kids see I would be the only one allowed in certain stores and drinking from certain fountains, I really just want to go back to the "Good Old Days."

And my special needs kids? Hell- take 'em out of my blended inclusion room and toss 'em back in the asylums where they belong! That's what I"m really hoping for.

I suppose :sarcasm: is necessary on this particular thread. I'm doing this: :eyes: quite a bit today.

[countingbluecars]

137. Thanks Kerrytravelers.

It is very frustrating when issues get twisted like this.

[Kerrytravelers]

138. You're welcome.

Instead of the conversation being "It's good that schools are dealing with prejudice and discrimination, bringing the lesson to a visual, emotional lesson so the kids will remember it. Perhaps they should have tried X-Y-Z instead," we end up with "Let's sue! Might as well burn them! The schools are promoting segregation! I'll bashing their fucking heads in!"

Could things have been done better? Probably. I don't know. I wasn't there. But, the two districts I've worked in have done similar things and the lessons were obvious to the kids. They got it. They remembered it and it was worthwhile.

I can see r-wingers like malkin and coulter loving this thread. Sometimes, we play right into their hands.

By the way, where is our OP?

[proud2BlibKansan]

248. Don't forget the medical experiments

They fit in there somewhere, don't they?

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. My mom reminded me today that my dad did get a few complaints

over the years when he showed the movie - from Jewish parents. They were afraid he was going to incite some anti-semitism.

[LisaL]

194. If that was over a movie, imagine how Jewish parents must feel

about this situation, where yellow stars were actually stuck on children. And some of those children might actually be jewish, since the "victims' were picked by alphabet.
The whole experiment is extremely offensive. The school might have had good intentions-but road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[LisaL]

232. Add to that-apparently other kids not given stars

were treating the "victims" badly and calling them Jews.
What lesson did they learn?
Obviously exactly opposite than was intended by the stupid exercise.

[LisaL]

102. Exactly. Instead of sticking yellow stars on children and

having these children discriminated against. Which actually might mean to someone that it's o'key to abuse a child if that child is jewish.

[proud2BlibKansan]

174. I don't know that he would disapprove of that though

He was pretty outspoken about the Holocaust. He fought in WWII.

[JohnKleeb]

113. humanizing the holocaust so to speak I think

was your old man's point. I rememeber 8th grade quite well since it was only about 6 years ago, and we did something similiar to this in English. We were randomly assigned a child and we had to read about what happened to them and write about it. I'll always remember what happened to the little girl, I did my project on, it was this little German girl who disappeared from a Riga, Lativa Ghetto in late 1942.
http://www.museumoftolerance.com/site/pp.asp?c=arLPK7PILqF&b=249724
This has always stuck with me for some reason.

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. Hey Kleeb!!

How's tricks? :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

143. That was an appropriate response

Thank goodness he didn't treat them like Jews in wartime Warsaw! :eyes:

I cannot believe some of the responses in this thread! I hope they are NOT teachers! x(

[Neil Lisst]

145. I agree with you.

Unfortunately, the most troubling responses have been by teachers.

[Swamp Rat]

149. REALLY?!?

No wonder we have so many psychos in America today! x(

Man, this type of "educational experience" should be done in 12th grade, 11th at the earliest. Hell, when I went to Dachau with a group of universitiy students (when I was studying in Austria), many of them were so disturbed that they needed counseling afterward.

The teacher mentioned in the OP had NO RIGHT to do this! Perhaps lessons about bigotry, a movie, a lecture from a holocause camp survivor WITH THE PERMISSION OF THE PARENTS, might be approproiate, depending on the content.

This kind of crap reminds me of what Scientologists do to children. :puke:

[Kerrytravelers]

155. It's one thing to disagree, but to call people sickos and psychos

is a bit over the top.

I completely disagree with you, but having seen you on the DU boards since I first joined, having PMed you to be sure you were ok during Katrina, to PM you to find out if your mother was safe during Katrina- I have more respect for you than to call you outside your name over a disagreement.

You're better than your posts.

[Swamp Rat]

190. Well, I wasn't referring to you, but I suppose it was over the top to

call everyone sickos and psychos... I wasn't thinking and just reacted.

Sorry if I offended you.

[Kerrytravelers]

240. Hey, don't worry abut it. I understand that this topic really upset you.

I think having passion about an issue is great. If only more people cared and wanted to talk about improving education!

And I could never put you on ignore! I love your homemade pics too much! :hug:

[Swamp Rat]

247. Whew!

I'm glad you returned to read my response! :hug:

My gut reaction was one of revulsion for the method used to inform the kids - it probably comes from my Montessori training - my preference is to only show children the beautiful things in life for as long as possible. They will learn about the cruel world soon enough without our help. On the other hand, they SHOULD be told about these things, but in gradual stages with parental consent. Perhaps the type of 'experiment' mentioned in the OP would be appropriate for high school juniors and seniors (IMHO).

[Kerrytravelers]

250. Did you go to a Montessori school or did you teach there?

Just curious about your experiences. I'm considering making a career change and always wondered about Montessori. I understand that kids get to be the driving factor of what they learn, but I wasn't sure exactly how that works effectively. Since you're not an idiot, I assume it works fairly well! :)

[Swamp Rat]

253. Both

And thanks! :D

I recommend Montessori. Even if you just did the training and returned to a 'traditional' classroom, you will utilize a lot of what you learned. Plus, I really enjoyed having different age groups in one classroom, helping and learning from each other. I had the privilege of teaching one child with Down's Syndrome, who at nine years old had developed the reading comprehension of a 12th grader!

I'll wager once you go Montessori, you will never go back. ;)

[Kerrytravelers]

257. I've really been thinking about it. I love the fact that Special Needs

kids are in there, much in the way a blended inclusion room is in public school.

Teaching Montessori requires special training, doesn't it? Could I get in there in my Multi-Sub CLAD credential?

[Swamp Rat]

260. Yes, it requires special training.

But your teaching credentials will help you in many ways, especially outside the Montessori system. I trained at a Montessori facility in San Luis Obispo, which is not too far North of where you are, but there are many places in the USA and abroad to do this training. Some Montessori teachers may disagree, but I think your prior training and credentials are a plus.

Btw, I no longer teach because I am a student again. I am working on another masters and PhD in science (I already have a couple of degrees in music).

edit: because I can

[Kerrytravelers]

263. I can think of three Montessori schools in my area. I'll have to look

into them!

Thanks! :hug:


Isn't it funny, we can completely disagree on a subject, yet remain friends. And others here just can't seem to get past a disagreement and would rather continuing arguing! :shrug: DU is a :crazy: place sometimes!

[Swamp Rat]

277. Yes, I like DU because there are a lot of disagreements, yet many DUers

can see past them. My post (that caught your attention) was rather outrageous, vague, and emotional. Actually, I meant to edit it, but then I decided that I deserved to take some heat for posting it in the first place. How else am I gonna learn? :D

abraço :hug:

edit: :D

[Kerrytravelers]

279. Well, I'm glad I was the one who got to punish you! Grrrrrrrrowl!

:evilgrin:

[Swamp Rat]

281. SQUEAK!

:yoiks:



:D

[Kerrytravelers]

282. Don't worry, Pitter-pat has never shown an interest in catching mice...

... or Rats!

[Kerrytravelers]

152. Yep. Teachers who asked you to cite Ed Code that pertained.

And you could not.

[Neil Lisst]

156. it's not the Educational code, it's the law of negligence

Teachers don't dictate what the law is, but they are subject to it.

What law? The law that says if you harm another person, you can be held accountable in a civil court. Only 500 years of common law.

When you want to know what a legal cause of action is, you don't ask a teacher, unless that teacher is a law professor.

I've decided that convincing any of the teachers here there is a problem is not likely, so I will instead make sure the families in Apoka have good lawyers to pursue the teachers and administrators responsible.

[Kerrytravelers]

158. All you quoted above was Ed Code. But why bother pointing this out to you?

You've just repeated yourself without anything of substance to back it up.

I will instead make sure the families in Apoka have good lawyers to pursue the teachers and administrators responsible.

You be sure to do that. You clearly need a lesson in reality. Perhaps there, you'll learn it.

I'll be sure to follow the story and laugh at your incrediable waste of time.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

166. Yep. Better stop us misguided Gentiles.

That's your real agenda. Very obvious now. Pity you see it as an attack on you rather than a failed attempt at making students more sensitive to anti-Semitism.


Edited to add: Don't bother educating people to better understand your position. Just sue 'em and make them resent you. That's a great strategy. Way to go.



This dialogue with you is celarly pointless in that youo refuse to accept that you simply quote Special Education Ed Code and now acknowledge a bias you withheld earlier.

[Neil Lisst]

167. I'll leave that conclusion to the ADL.

I've had a warm relationship with them over the past several decades, including a nasty incident in which I represented a Jewish mother and her son against a school district.

Pro Bono, of course.

[Kerrytravelers]

170. Oh, pro bono, of course, Because all public schools are evil.

Sometimes school lessons fall flat. It doesn't mean teachers are encouraging racism. But, instead of fixing the lesson and making it educationally worthwhile, you'd rather drag them to court and deplete funds. Intelligent move. :eyes:


Why am I even responding to this nonsense and giving it any attention? :eyes:


I would love to sit across from you in a courtroom someday. Unlike others, I don't intimidate so easily.


But hey, good luck adding more anger and misery to a messed up situation. :thumbsup:

[Neil Lisst]

177. I'm only driven to get involved in school cases that interest me.

And this one interests me because I think it's an important matter.

As has been made abundantly clear by this thread, there is a wide disagreement between the typical parent of children and the teachers who have offered often very hostile responses on this thread. In fact, it is that relentless hostility that made me decide to get involved more seriously. I'd have let it pass, but the responses on this thread have been, IMHO, absolutely outrageous.

I believe all such matters should be resolved without litigation, but the district must know that it faces certain economic loss before it will take the necessary punitive actions against the teachers and administrators who screwed up.

I believe a matter at this stage must be taken to the district hierarchy. There's no point in trying to argue with teachers who are defensive and belligent. You make the big wheels turn, and they take care of the little wheels.

[derby378]

183. Hear, hear!

If a teacher were to try that "brown eyes vs. blue eyes" experiment on my children, to put it politely, the bitch would be going down. I'd have their job and the keys to their classroom faster than you could say "McGuffey's Eclectic Reader."

Once again, we send our kids to school to become students, not lab rats fighting each other for a scrap of poisoned cheese.

[Neil Lisst]

191. I don't want to get anyone fired. I just want to ...

... give them a well-needed attitude adjustment. Sometimes teachers and administrators forget whose school it is. It's the public's, not theirs. They are employees of the district, which is the functionary of the local citizenry.

They gotta remember who the boss is.

[derby378]

200. I agree - but only up to a point

Republicans make a big show about claiming they'll bring public schools under control by local parents. But who will control the local parents? Some local demagogue preacher who wants young-earth creationism taught in science classes and all maps of Pangaea burned as heresies?

Schools are to serve the public trust, not the particular demands of parents. However, I do believe that the Apopka "Holocaust" experiment, in the context under which it was implemented, did not serve the public trust.

[Neil Lisst]

202. I agree. But it's a huge distinction between treating the kids sanely

and forcing creation science on kids.

Don't get me started on Jay Sekulow.

[Kerrytravelers]

242. Well, looks like you need to come take me down.

I guess I'm just an experimental bitch to you. Glad the parents whose kids were in my class were supportive. But hey, I'm just a whiny, over-paid teacher with no creativity who runs to my union to hide from my responsibilities, right?

Would I do the Star experiment in this situation? No. But I've done Brown?Blue eyes and it is an amazing program that startles the children when they realize how people are treated in this world. Try seeing it in action before jumping to conclusions.

[mondo joe]

168. There's something I don't get in the back and forth about the law here.

To my knowledge, just about anyone can sue just about anyone for damages, including emotional distress.

To my knowledge, schools can (and are) sued for negligence, typically resulting from some failure to safeguard kids from some damage during school hours.

I'm not saying this incident rises to that level. And it's worth remembering that a suit is one thing, but a successful suit is another.

But I just don't understand all the back and forth - anyone can sue almost anyone else, though success is not assured.

[Kerrytravelers]

172. This guy is quoting Special Ed code, saying the lawsuits are a given.

This lesson isn't covered under Special Ed code. he's linking IEP and 504 Autism code to this lesson in a GE History class. Nothing applies. When we say that, he says"Ask your district."

I work in Special Ed. I know the Ed Code backwards and forward. This is just piddly garbage to try and look like a badass when he misquoted something to try and shut people up.

You, on the other hand have a far better ability to discuss and understand, as I've noted below.

[Neil Lisst]

185. You're quite right. Success is not assured.

But what is "success?"

I get involved in some school district fiasco about once every five years, and I can assure you, it's not for the money. In fact, I've never charged anyone who had a complaint against a school district. It's a cause for me, like many other causes that I find worthy of support.

The point is almost always to change policies and to make the teachers and administrators stop doing whatever they're doing, and start doing something else.

The best attack is three pronged: Media, Cause Groups, and threat of litigation. Once the district gets a formal demand letter from an attorney threatening a lawsuit for damages and requesting that the school's insurance carrier be put on notice of the pending claim, the fat is in the fire. Suddenly, the district realizes it is going to be paying a lot of money to deal with the problem, and they get malleable.

Insurance is not free. The premiums are based upon loss experience, and if the insurer pays out a claim, they'll be looking to get it back in the next policy year by increased premiums.

[Neil Lisst]

234. It's a negligence case. Pure and simple.

Your personal insults will not dissuade me. I've been called worse by better.

[Kerrytravelers]

252. Not personal insults- just observations.

But I don't believe you're a lawyer, either. Funny how that only came up after you couldn't and wouldn't respond to the Special Ed Code questions put forth by teachers. When kids at school respond with evasiveness, we write them up for lying, refusing to properly respond when spoken to and other behavioral errors. At DU, we just laugh when it's obvious one is unable to have a sensible debate and discussion.

But hey, if you really are, best of luck wasting public education funds and giving the right wingers another notch for their frivolous lawsuit belts. Way to go!

But, I'm sure better people than me have alluded to your interesting take on "facts."

[Neil Lisst]

262. Thanks.

You're dismissed.

[Kerrytravelers]

265. Thanks for the insults.

From a person like you, I'll wear them as a badge of honor.

Good luck helping waste Flordia's tax dollars. You seem like a wonderful and intelligent person.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Neil Lisst]

266. Well, I'm sure some teachers will learn this week.

In Florida. They'll learn they aren't the decision makers.

[Kerrytravelers]

268. Ohh... you go get 'em, 'cause you're a big man. Go get them bad teachers.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bet you've never been a teacher. Your kind always wants to put us in our "place."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I just can't stop laughing...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[countingbluecars]

270. Quick delete.

[Kerrytravelers]

273. Yep. Isn't that funny.

Calls me a "bad teacher" and how he's going to teach teachers a thing or two...blah, blah, blah.

I can understand deleting that. Not that I personally care that some random guy who has been playing games all night long thinks I'm a "bad teacher." He made the comment earlier (which has been deleted) in reference to me being a Gentile and a opinion that went along with that statement. Hummm.... not, not an agenda there at all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

180. Well I am a teacher

and I think if a mistake was made it was in not notifying the parents - if indeed they weren't notified. The activity itself I don't have a problem with.

[Swamp Rat]

187. That's what pissed me off about this story the most.

Also, I think the method the teacher used was wrong wrong wrong, for this age group.

Perhaps a talk given by a holocaust survivor would have been much better then abusing the children this way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

198. You would be amazed at the extremes we have to go to

to get their attention and interest them in learning. That's why I am not criticizing the activity.

Guest speakers are rarely effective. They usually don't know how to hold the attention of kids. It's a video game generation; active learning is the way to go these days.

[Kerrytravelers]

255. That's what a lot of people outside of the classroom don't get.

We have to compete with so much. A simple book, movie or guest speaker is often considered "boring." It takes a lot to get through to some kids. I personally prefer a more traditional method of reading, writing and studying... but then the parents complain that it's too boring for their kids.

Basically, no matter what we do, we're either boring or open for litigation. Is it any wonder that 85% of public school teachers quit within the first 5 years? This thread is a perfect example. Instead of asking professional teachers what we think and why, we jumped right into lawsuits and how terrible teachers are. no wonder we get so damn defensive. We are political tools, punching bags and the perfect one to blame... and this doesn't include our jobs as educators, therapists, social worker, guidance counselor and multi-linguist instructor.

If I had to count the number of hours I spent at the police station in the past three months reporting abuse cases and helping my kids who are in dire trouble. But hell, one fuck up and now, I'm a perfect target.


Five years of college to make the shit salary and the lack of respect? It really isn't worth it much longer. Shit, look at how liberals attack us Imagine how much fun wingers are!

[proud2BlibKansan]

285. 99% of the parents I have worked with have been terrific

and supportive. But that other 1%!! LOL

It really is disheartening to see all the teacher bashing on DU. I see more and more of it all the time here. I blame NCLB and high stakes testing. Its purpose is to make schools look bad and it is working! Even liberals seem to be convinced we teachers suck, hate kids, don't know what we are doing and have no business around kids. And of course our opinion isn't worth diddly squat.

I can retire soon. If it wasn't for that, I would definitely be looking for another career.

I am also damn glad I talked myself out of that PhD program 10 years ago. And I am glad I didn't go for Nat'l Board Cert. either. The cost is something I never would have gottten back in pay.

[Neil Lisst]

199. There are many ways to teach about the holocaust

This was not a good one.

Have the ADL or a concentration camp survivor speak. Have a rabbi come talk about it. Watch the movie about the experiment done with students many years ago.

This was simply a very poorly conceived program. I expect the teachers and admins involved will be apologizing profusely within days, and maybe they'll have to attend some sensitivity seminar as a prophylactic for future incidents.

[derby378]

203. I heard a Holocaust survivor speak 10 years ago

I thought his speech was incredible. He even had some Zyklon-B pellets sealed up in a little jar from when he smuggled them out of Auschwitz.

[Neil Lisst]

212. One of my senior partners when I was much younger was a camp

survivor. Seeing his tattoo and listening to his stories probably sealed my connection to Jews for all time. I sure miss that old man.

[Swamp Rat]

208. I agree - the teachers and administration should be required to take

some sort of sensitivity seminar after what they did. I believe there will be negative and unintended consequences as a result of this poorly conceived "experiment."

[Neil Lisst]

225. I'll accurately predict what will now happen.

The furor will continue for a few days. The school district will issue apologies and invite disgruntled parents in. The district will pay for some of the kids to have shrink visits and meds, if needed. The teacher will issue a public apology. The teacher and appropriate administrator will get called on the carpet, and will probably take a hit on their ratings, which may cost them bonus or raises. And it will never happen again.

At least not at that school district.

[Kerrytravelers]

258. If attacked pubicly, I'm sure they will.

They have no choice since funds are so low, they have to pick their battles. But instead of handling the situation without intimidation and in a way that build everyone up, you choose to go and attack.

The final result wasn't successful. Go work with the school to make a successful one. Why go angry when you can help instead. You'd be surprised how much better you'd be received and perhaps how much better an educational program could be built for the kids.

Are you there to help the kids or just punish and publicly humiliate the adults?

[Taxloss]

126. I support the school on this one.

Holocaust memorial day should hardly be fun and frolics. I hope the heartache was a lesson to everyone in what it means to have your human rights arbitrarily taken away.

At my school, we used to have "Rich World, Poor World" lunches, where we would all pay the same and half the kids would get a normal lunch (or better than normal) and half would get a small bowl of rice.

[proud2BlibKansan]

249. Any lawsuits?

Sounds like your school had a habit of damaging children. :sarcasm:

[Kerrytravelers]

267. Hey! I know a DUer we can call!

You know, an "attorney" who quotes Special Ed Code and like to sue school districts!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This will be quite funny tomorrow morning in the Teacher's lounge. He even called me a "bad teacher" when he couldn't explain why an "attorney" would quote random Autistic Special Ed Code!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You know, an "attorney" who quotes Special Ed Code and like to sue school districts!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This will be quite funny tomorrow morning in the Teacher's lounge. He even called me a "bad teacher" when he couldn't explain why an "attorney" would quote random Autistic Special Ed Code!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I must edit to add that suddenly, we've had a quick delete. Suddenly, my insults have disappeared into cyberspace!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x821444#825354


A School Bus Chaser will now replace the Ambulance Chaser!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x821444#825503

My apologies to all honorable attorneys who work hard to serve the public good and get roped with such slurs as Ambulance Chaser and the like.ofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[countingbluecars]

272. School bus chaser!

[Kerrytravelers]

276. School bus chaser! That. Is. Fucking. Hilarious!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Here you go!


And after our little DU School Bus Chaser gets through with it!



Go Bus Chaser!

[proud2BlibKansan]

278. LOL Would that be a

short bus chaser? Or a 504 bus chaser?

That is too funny, CBC!!

:rofl:

[Taxloss]

299. No lawsuits that I remember.

It was fully explained and we were forewarned about it. We were all prepared for it and it was coupled with valuable educational support.

I suspect the idea used in the school in the above story was fine in conception but careless in execution - it wasn't what they did but how they did it. Not enough groundwork. But I don't know, and that's the sort of thing that never gets reported. It sounds like they accidentally repeated the Stanford Experiment.

[Kerrytravelers]

128. It was on Holocaust Remembrance Day and they were given

Stars to put on. By the eighth grade, they should be able to figure out what the lesson was.

I'm mean, seriously, how silly can we get?


Edited to add:

Any lesson can be made better. No one is perfect and good meaning people make mistakes. But to sue? Why doesn't everyone sit down and find a way to make the lesson even better the next year for the 8th graders? Instead of improving education, people are choosing to head to court, to sue, to take a teachable moment and turn it into a war.

And we wonder why our kids aren't learning.

[Swamp Rat]

142. Wow! What a bunch of sickos on this thread!

who should NOT be allowed *EVER* to children! :puke:

[mondo joe]

146. It does strike me that some posters sound like they just want the kids

to feel the pain of discrimination, as if that alone is the lesson.

These simulations can be very powerful, but they need to be in a learning context. I've seen it work well when people understand what they'll be doing and it wraps up with a debrief for sharing and learning.

That might have happened here -- maybe not. It doesn't sound right to me to not let the parents know so they could understand the simulation and be prepared for family discussion at home.

It also might be this kid just didn't take it well.

There's not enough here to say.

I am pretty let down that so many DUers are sounding so venomous to an 8th grader, especially with so little data.

[Kerrytravelers]

150. It's not the eighth grader, it's the parents who immediately began

making the school at fault instead of reading the curriculum and working with the school to make the lesson better and more educational in the future.

I'd actually like to read the curriculum in Florida. In California, it's very clear. Simulations like this happen all the time and there isn't a history of suing and parental complaint. If the school made an error, why waste precious educational funds on lawsuits when it can be handles more effectively and less expensively by a lesson review with the parents, teachers, administrators and perhaps others from the community. Schools do this all the time without law suits or even threats of law suits.




Edited for spelling error.

[mondo joe]

154. To be sure, that would be better.

But there really did seem to me to be a lot of posts here wailing on the kid or "coddling" kids.

I think these simulations teach important lesson - I particularly favor Jane Elliott's Brown Eyed/Blue Eyed program. And I'd particularly favor that approach over having some kids identified as Jews, because it's a hard emotional experience to begin with, and I can REALLY see that hitting even more nerves.

[Kerrytravelers]

157. Now this is a reasonable debate.

Shame it's not happening until the bottom of the thread.

I wonder if they had set it up as the Brown Eyed, Blue Eyed program, with a brown eye pinned on some and a Blue eye on the others if this could have been more effective.

It is so hard to reach kids sometimes. They have become so complacent and having to compete with tv and videos is nearly impossible. I bet the administration chose not to tell the parents first because they would tell the kids. When the kids came to school, they'd request being a jew or Gentile... etc. That's why. So the parents wouldn't ruin the experiment.

It's all in the presentation. That is what the district should be evaluating. Often, the districts will send home a parental response questionnaire to evaluate the home responses to the simulations. I'm curious if that happened here?

[mondo joe]

160. I've also heard that the Brown Eyed/Blue Eyed program is considered

most effective in shorter periods and even 90 minutes might be too long. Intuitively I can't see it being effective in less time than that, but there are trained facilitators who are in a much better position to know than I am.

I'd be really shocked if our school didn't give us a heads up about something like this, in at least general terms. And the more I think about it the more I think denoting kids as Gentiles and Jews is problematic. It feels to me like a very well intentioned idea but one that might create very valid bad feelings for participants. When I think of my Jewish family I can hardly imagine them feeling comfortable with it.

What's ideal about the Blue/Brown program is that it really highlights how absurd the arbitrary distinctions are, without invoking or entrenching existing divisions.

[countingbluecars]

161. Did they really denote the kids as Gentiles and Jews

during the simulation or was that part of the follow-up discussion? I got the impressions that the kids only knew that those without stars were privileged.

[mondo joe]

165. I don't know - in either event I can't say I think it was a great idea.

Again, I think it was well intentioned, but I can see how it could very easily be very upsetting for some people because it would be too close to home. I'm imagining my kids' Jewish grandfather if he learned they were made to wear a star and so on, even in a well intended experiment.

[countingbluecars]

173. I understand what you are saying.

I see that the star was a mistake. The kids should have been segregated in a way that could not be viewed as offensive by any group. The discussion that followed could have (and may have) included all types of discrimination.

[Kerrytravelers]

162. I prefer the Brown/Blue eye program myself.

I'm open to other programs. I've seen others that work. It really all hinges on how the simulation is set up, the lessons the kids were getting prior to the simulation and the follow-up. If that falls flat, the lesson often will. I've never heard of a kids going home saying I don't want to be Jewish, that seems a bit far-fetched for an 8th grader- a third grader maybe- but for an 8th grader, that's pretty immature.

We often took our immature kids out of the simulation and did other lessons with them that would teach the same lessons without terrorizing the rest of the school. Perhaps this is the first time this particular school has tried anything like this. I'd be curious to know all the above information in greater detail before calling my lawyers.

Thank you for a normal debate on this subject. I feel like adding you to my "buddy list" for normal conversations on a controversial subject in the future!

:hug:

[Kerrytravelers]

148. Are you a teacher?

Just curious? You have so many opinions on how to reach children through the Multiple Intelligences and the life-lesson module, I am curious your theories on modern education and what philosophies and modules you adhere to in regards to cross-curricular studies and current understanding of brain-based comprehension.



Edited for word error.

[Swamp Rat]

181. LOL!

edit: see my post above.

[derby378]

186. Readin', writin', and 'rithmetic

If a teacher can't master teaching those in elementary school, they need to clear their desks before I start breating down their necks.

[Swamp Rat]

193. What about art?

My greatest learning experiences came from art classes... not that I disagree with mastering the others.

[derby378]

197. First the three R's, then art appreciation

I agree with you - art classes opened up my eyes in ways I never expected. But you have to stress the fundamentals first.

[Swamp Rat]

201. I consider art a "fundamental," as important as the others.

Perhaps this view is eclectic, but I believe training in art and music develop the brain (kinesthetics) in ways the other disciplines do not, and therefore should be given as much attention and importance.

[Kerrytravelers]

244. LOL!

:hug:

[Kerrytravelers]

280. Gotta love you, SwampRat!

:loveya:

[ScreamingMeemie]

245. I HAVE children. Two, well cared fo r children. And I went through

something similar to this as an 8th grader, but it was in reference to slavery. I see nothing wrong with it except for a parent looking for a possible way to sue the system perhaps. Since we're hurling accusations I would wager this "parent" could use a few STEP classes to learn how to parent his child instead of being his "friend".

[proud2BlibKansan]

251. It really alarms me that this kid came home crying

He is in the 8th grade! Way too old to react like that. But I think it is positively disgusting that his parent told the media his kid came home crying. Can you imagine how humiliated he is NOW?

[ContraBass Black]

147. Has anyone put up a DU poll on this?

If not, I might.

[derby378]

210. Here's mine

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x823768

[derby378]

169. FYI, the "brown eyes vs. blue eyes" teacher is Jane Elliott

http://www.janeelliott.com/contactjane.htm

Edit: Reworded for clarity.

[mondo joe]

171. The teacher in this class was Jane Elliott????????

I have nothing but admiration for Jane Elliott. What happened in this class doesn't sound like her program.

I guess it could be - but are you sure?

[derby378]

179. I goofed

She's responsible for the "brown-eyes vs. blue-eyes" experiment.

I'm changing the post now. Sorry about the confusion.

[The Straight Story]

195. Kids should have told teachers to go to hell in this case

Which, to me, was the lesson. People in power ordering you around and you comply - which the kids did - should be the lesson. They did not want to do it, did not like it, but did because someone with authority told them to. Guess they did not learn much...

[LisaL]

209. Hah? They are in school. All they do is to comply with the teachers.

[derby378]

213. Maybe that's the problem right there

You see, during the Nazi Holocaust, some Jews didn't march meekly into the gas chambers and the forced-labor pits of Auschwitz and Treblinka. They fought. There was the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, for starters. Then there were the two concentration camps, namely Treblinka and Sobibor, that were destroyed by prisoner revolts. Partisan fighters even managed to blow up a crematorium in Auschwitz itself.

Lessons learned? Question authority. Buy a gun. And always stay one step ahead of your government. Because government should fear the people, not the other way around.

[LisaL]

217. You are not seriously suggesting school children should be

bringing guns to school?

[derby378]

223. Bring guns to school? Perish the thought

But students can deny their teachers authority over them with a very simple technique - the walkout.

Pisses off school administrators, yes, but it gets the point across, as demonstrated last week across America.

[ContraBass Black]

229. That requires organization.

The experiment wasn't long enough for that.

[Kerrytravelers]

246. I think, my dear lizzy, that you and I are on the same side at this point.

I take suggesting beinging a gun to school a threat.

I do hope this person is not a parent where I teach. I would call the cops ASAP.

[derby378]

297. Once again, I did not suggest bringing guns to school

The "buy a gun" exhortation was more of a tip for adults - who, BTW, were once students themselves.

And I'm certainly not encouraging them to bring guns to school, either.

[proud2BlibKansan]

310. That's sure how it comes across

[Neil Lisst]

219. I like the sound of that. Where have I heard that recently?!

Oh, yeah. Here:

[proud2BlibKansan]

254. WTF?

Guns???

I'm sure glad you don't live in my community. Solving problems with guns is generally not accepted here.

[Kerrytravelers]

259. I fear DU sometimes...

If these are the liberals... the right wingers must be scarier than I ever believed! :scared:

[proud2BlibKansan]

264. I am a regular on a couple other boards dominated by RWers

When I see some of their crap posted here it is rather disheartening.

[Kerrytravelers]

271. I'm a bit curious abut some of the posts here.

Sounds so familiar, doesn't it, proud2Blib?

Same old thing, over and over. The big bad teachers don't know what they're doing, so let's show 'em! Sue 'em! Tarnish 'em! Deplete the school funds in lawsuits and demands! And it's all for the children, don't you know?

[proud2BlibKansan]

284. It doesn't make much sense

They advocate coddling to these kids and not hurting their feewings but then they also want to sue, which definitely damages the kids.

The other thing that haunts me about the story in the OP is that a kid who is in 8th grade came home crying and his dad told the media. He is upset at the school for upsetting his kid and then he turns around and humiliates him by telling the world he was crying over something that happened at school. Which leads me to ask: WHO did more damage to this kid - the school or his dad? :shrug:

[Kerrytravelers]

287. I love voices of reason.

This thread never had a reasonable discussion about teaching methods. It became silliness over suing and being a School Bus Chaser and beating peoples fucking heads in and a great little thread for the likes of malkin and coulter to prove we love frivolous lawsuits brought on by attention-seeking trial lawyers.

Liberals really do stand in a circle and shoot each other, don't they?

[derby378]

298. I'm afraid you completely misread my intentions

Once again, I did not advocate that anyone bring guns to school. The "buy a gun" argument was aimed at society in general, and based on the experiences of European Jews during WWII.

[Reader Rabbit]

301. Have you been in a middle school lately?

I'm not sure what you're basing this opinion on, but if I ever had to list the attributes of the average adolescent, "compliant" wouldn't even make the list!

[proud2BlibKansan]

311. Spend much time in middle schools?

Complying with teachers is certainly not high on this age's list of priorities. LOL

[ContraBass Black]

228. That would have made things a lot more interesting

But I think it unfair to expect that from them in a one-day exercise.

[proud2BlibKansan]

288. Kids should tell teachers to go to hell?

Let me ask you this - if you told your boss to go to hell, for how long do you think you would stay employed?

[Neil Lisst]

291. If the teacher is out of line, they should.

The teacher is NOT the child's boss. The child's parents are.

The teacher is a person the parents hire to teach the topics the parents want taught, under the conditions the parents set. The Parents are the boss of the child and the teacher.

[Name removed]

292. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

295. That's a great idea. Let's teach eveyone to express themselves with a

go to hell, fuck off, eat shit and dies. That's a great way to keep civility and peace. Great thing to teach children. :eyes:

[MichiganVote]

305. You are seriously misinformed if you believe that parents are the boss

of teachers. School districts have a contract with teachers and school that includes disciplinary measures IF or WHEN it is shown that a teacher has violated said contract. Moreover, teachers, as representative of a school district, DO act in the place of the parent, subject to laws that are on the books in a score of ways. If these things were not true, there would be no need for school system discipline policies for students.

Having read the majority of your posts on this string, it is clear that you are opinionated but lacking factual information. Where in the world you ever learned that teachers recieve bonuses is beyond me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

315. OMG I missed that one

He thought we receive bonuses?? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Oh but I did get a plastic coffee cup at Christmas this year. And they usually send a case of apples to each building on Teacher Appreciation Day. Last year, the apples delivered to my school were rotten. But a bonus is a bonus I suppose. :)

[MichiganVote]

322. And notepads....don't forget the always apple themed notepads!

[proud2BlibKansan]

324. We got pens one year

that didn't work. LOL

[proud2BlibKansan]

345. I am employed by a school district

not parents. I have had several different teaching jobs and never once has a parent hired me. As a resident of the school district, the parents elect school board members who hire a superintendent. That is who I work for and who pays me. But I also believe I work for my students.

If parents were really the boss, there would be a teacher a day fired somewhere in this country. Man if we think the teacher shortage is bad now, I can't even imagine what it would be like then. LOL

[sheelz]

293. With a dictator in the White House....

it would have been better to teach the Milgram experiment (Obedience to Authority)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

[LisaL]

231. The kids chosen as victims were crying-

because other kids were treating them badly and calling them Jews.
I guess that was the lesson learned in the end-being a Jew is bad. Very, very bad. I would like to know what possessed someone to come up with this idiotic exercise, and what possesses some people here to support this idiocy.
"Students with last names starting with the letters L to Z had to wear a yellow star. Those students were then banned from using certain restrooms, water fountains and had to go to the back of the line.

"I think it was a good exercise, but not meant for middle school. Some kids took it harsh and they were crying about it because other kids were treating us bad and calling us Jews," said student Brittney McGowan."
http://www.wftv.com/news/8356800/detail.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

256. ONE kid went home crying

ONE

[LisaL]

302. Not true.

Read the link I provided in my post. It says kids were crying because other children were abusing them and calling them Jews.

[proud2BlibKansan]

317. The OP clearly says ONE kid was crying

And as I have said a couple times in this thread, it must have been even more humiliating for him to read in the paper or see on the news that his dad told the media he came home crying. That, IMO, is far worse than anything the school supposedly did wrong. If he is an 8th grader, he is 13 or 14 years old. Kids that age don't want the world - or their peers - to know they came home crying.

[enki23]

237. how many 8th graders call their fathers "daddy"?

and go home crying saying "Daddy, I was a Jew today"?

[ScreamingMeemie]

241. When I was in 8th grade, 22 years ago (in Michigan) our teacher

led us through a slavery experiment. We were made to lie still on the floor for two hours straight in our darkened classroom, while our teacher read passages from true accounts of slave passage. The following days were filled with some students being the slaves and others the masters. It really was harsh at times and did give me a better handle on the material we were studying. And yes, at times it was tear inducing. But I believe I am a better person for it.

[seabeyond]

243. good for them. i looked for age. 8th grade not a problem.

i hope they do it in my sons school. he is in fifth grade, adn i wouldnt be opposed to them doing it at that age. and from the description of what they did, i wouldnt even be sooo opposed with my second grader. but then he knows about the holocaust, hitler (has read encyclopedias and seen pictures) so it wouldnt be a shocker for him. none of this would be a shocker. my oldest at 8 read black like me. they have a 60's encyclopedia that is huge and has so much in. so wouldnt be anything but reinforcing what they already know

yep,.... i think this is a good thing

i have seen/heard schools doing this stuff for ever. for a religious man to have issue with this lesson for his son is a sad sad thing

[Blue_Tires]

269. something tells me

the parents were MORE upset with their precious miracles being on the bottom of the totem pole for a day and the inferences with Judaism, which still makes a lot of people nervous...

and fwiw, I agree fully with this exercise, but it may have been better to do it with a non-racial component (i.e., eye color, shoe color, etc.)

[LisaL]

303. Many parents would get upset when school decides it's o'key

to abuse their child. Geez. I don't want other people abusing my children, even if it's "pretense".
Abuse is abuse, and there is no need for it to be planned as a lesson.

[seabeyond]

312. this isnt abuse. how ridiculous n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

320. Oh please

Standing in the back of the room and going to the end of the lunch line isn't abuse.

Telling the media that your 13 or 14 year old son came home from school crying is a lot closer to abusive than what the school did.

[DiverDave]

283. Good teacher, GREAT lesson

now if the whiny crybaby learns that it SUCKS to be discriminated against.

But, I suspect not, his dad is showing him that if life gets tough, you SUE...sheesh.

[sheelz]

327. According to the article that only some students got the lesson.

What was learned by at least one child is "Daddy, the only thing I found out today is I don't want to be Jewish." What if they tried this in a highly populated Jewish area like Skokie, IL. I'm sure there would be more outraged parents.

Furthermore, I see nothing in the article to suggest the students were debriefed after the "lesson." Thee school had good intentions but poorly executed without training and consent.

[Behind the Aegis]

294. I should have posted earlier. I hope someone sees this...

I have done similar experiments with college students and adults. The real success lies in the processing that happens after the event. While I don't think we should ever purposely hurt children, or anyone for that matter, teaching them history in "real time," is very, very valuable.

I was going to post a picture here, especially for those who keep saying "they are too young." However, I will not. I will post the link. It is very disturbing...

Truman Library Photographs

Were these children too young to learn the lesson...for real?! What about these (below)?

[Kerrytravelers]

296. Many here haven't ever been a teacher, yet feel very qualified

to attack because a claim is made. Some one here are apparently on the lookout for such situations to further their own agenda.

Thank you for a voice of reason.

[Reader Rabbit]

300. Haven't you heard? Teaching is easy. Anyone can do it!

:sarcasm:

And what is it about America that so many folk's first reaction is to go running for a lawyer?

:eyes:

*sigh*

[sheelz]

329. That's a poor argument.

That's like saying I have no reason to "verbally attack" a claim by the current "president" because I've never been a president.

You said, "Some one here are apparently on the lookout for such situations to further their own agenda." What agenda?

[Kerrytravelers]

334. The agenda is people who look for issues to sue over.

Not work to increase the educational value of lessons and simulations, not to improve on errors and to improve the curriculum (which is available to anyone at any time upon request), but to dive in and make a touchy situation worse by filing lawsuits and making enemies of people who could have worked together to build improvements.

This was shown ad nausea on earlier posts. One in particular was very clear in regards to keeping Gentiles in line, but that was deleted long before you began posting in the thread, so therefore you missed the agenda put forth so very clear. It is also something that teachers and people in education see every god damned day and, quite frankly, we're sick of the agendas. Did the lesson fall flat? It seems so. Was the simulation not properly handled? I don't know. I wasn't there. My Irish got up when the first few posts I read were about suing "some teacher." I've seen the simulations work quite well, but it takes a village, not a lawsuit to make that happen.

[sheelz]

339. I see no lawsuit or threat of one??

[Kerrytravelers]

341. The perhaps you need to scroll to the top and reread.

I can't say it any politer. It is all over the top. Discussions of Special Ed law and of past experiences. Some may have been deleted. I'm going beyond the OP here.

I am actually one of the least confrontational posters in GD (although you couldn't tell it from this particular thread) and the whole discussion is, quite frankly, wearing thin.

At this point, at 340 some posts, for anyone to continue repeating what has been said and said and said must be looking for an argument. I don't know if you have been, but what is there left to go in circles about? Beyond this, that's all it can be. This thread is going on and on and on, repeating itself and getting nowhere. You missed the arguing in the beginning. Sorry you missed it. You might have really enjoyed it. I don't know. Maybe you would have hated it. Don't worry, there are always threads you can argue on. Try one of the "illegal aliens" threads. They are continually popping up.

This thread has almost as many posts on it as you have here at DU. That means it's pretty long and clearly, it isn't getting anyone anywhere. As you are here longer, you will see the same people arguing all the time, with an occasional voice from others. I personally enjoy coming here to chat with other like minded folks. I had a friend introduce me to DU and since then, I've brought others and have met other DUers in person. It can become a nice little network of friends if you let it. Or it can become your battle ground. I dunno :shrug: I enjoy commradie far more than confrontation. People can disagree (me and SwampRat) and still have fun chatting together. That comes from being here and getting friendly with people.

But I'll tell you what. If you enjoy confrontation and you want to argue, go ahead. Call me a bad teacher (had that one, thought it was pretty funny considering the source.) Call me a Gentile that needs to be controlled (that one was here, as well.) Knock yourself out. It will be a one-sided argument because I'm hanging out in the Lounge (you're welcome to join) and then going to the gym and running on the treadmill.

[sheelz]

348. I've read the thread, ....I've scrolled up....

Nobody here on DU is going to file a lawsuit in this matter. Nor can they. The point is moot, but many of your post suggest otherwise. It's too early to say whether someone from that school will file.

I thought you were having a good time on this thread with all the :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ect.

Perhaps my post number is not what yours is but I don't spend much time posting just any :rofl: crap.

I come to DU to read for the most part. FYI, I've been a member of DU a little longer than you. Perhaps it would be better to read and understand issues instead of hanging out posting numerous :rofl:, as a defense. This issue is not a laughing matter to some of us. Perhaps the lounge is better suited for those in need of laughs.


edit: :rofl: for position

[Kerrytravelers]

350. Got it. You like to fight.

Ignore is my friend for people who look for fights. :crazy: And since I won't be seeing you, you can continue picking fights with me on moot points that make no sense (if one actually read the posts above :rofl: )! Enjoy and flame away my dear :crazy: !

[sheelz]

351. You have more posts on this thread than anybody.

It seems to me that you like to fight. Or perhaps it's to cower behind :rofl: :crazy: symbols. I believe in fighting for what I believe in. I'm trying to debate the issue. If you call that fighting, then I guess I'm a fighter. If only the Democratic Party had more fighters, perhaps we'd be in a better situation.

[LisaL]

304. What lesson did they learn "for real"? Do tell?

Did Germans plan to teach them a lesson, that's all?
Too bad they couldn't use it, cause most of them died. Ludicrous to compare this school's lesson to actual Holocaust victims, especially in context that both groups were thought a lesson.
:eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

330. The main lesson: Mankind is capable of great evil

The children of the Holocaust learned this lesson at the cost of their lives or childhoods. The Florida children learned this lesson at the cost of "hurt feelings." The costs are not comparable, but the Florida children can go on with their lives with, perhaps, more empathy and wisdom.

The real :eyes: should be for those who do not understand the magnitude of the lessons those children in Florida learned. They learned what it was to be an outcast. They learned what it was to be treated differently. I am almost certain some might already know that, just as I am certain that others do not. Perhaps they will take those lessons and remember them and act when they see others being treated the way they were treated that one day.

The parable lesson: "You do not know a man until you walk a mile in his shoes."

[Kerrytravelers]

335. Behind the Aegis always comes with a voice of reason and sense in

his head.

:applause:

[proud2BlibKansan]

321. Awesome!

Thanks for your inciteful response.

[sheelz]

326. Do you agree with the Holocaust Memorial Resource

and Education Center of Florida.

<snip>

"That is the mission of The Center to teach tolerance through Holocaust remembrance and education. However, we do not encourage nor train teachers to engage in simulation exercises."

[Behind the Aegis]

328. I do not agree with their mission.

First, I disagree with teaching "tolerance." Second, I disagree with their not teaching and training teachers to engage in simulation exercises.

'Tolerance' is not good enough, IMO. I understand that many groups use that word, and for a long time, so did I. However, we must move beyond tolerance, to respect and understanding.

Simulation exercises are excellent training tools, but only if done properly and with the correct methods of processing. As I was not at this school, I do not know how the processing component was handled.

There are proper ways to engage in these type of simulation exercises. It is very strict, for good reason. Ten years from now, do you think the child who cried, "Daddy, today I was a Jew." will ever forget that day or how he felt?! Now, ten years later, do you think the same child would have remembered a 'lesson' about the Holocaust? Perhaps, perhaps not. One thing is almost for certain, the emotional component would likely not be there.

[sheelz]

331. Thank you for the clarification.

I asked for clarification because I felt some people misunderstood what you posted. I love your response about moving beyond tolerance. :thumbsup: :)

[Behind the Aegis]

332. You are welcome!

The biggest issue I have is I don't know how (if any) processing of the event went. If there was none or it was poorly executed, then it was exceedingly cruel, and the lessons might be lost on several of the students.

Human creatures are capable of great cruelty and great compassion. The compassion, more often than not, is learned from experience. The great cruelty, however, can be learned through experience or, simply, by not being compassionate.

In my mind, this event reminds of the Republican Representative (senator?) from Oregon who was against a bill that would support people with clinical depression. Two weeks after his "arguments," his son killed himself. The representative quickly changed his tune! Before his tragedy, the representative was not at all compassionate to the needs of the clinically depressed; after this tragedy, well, his change in stances showed he learned a lesson, albeit the price was too high!

This is, of course, just how I see things because of my own experiences in life.

:toast:

[BoneDaddy]

307. How bout some balance people

Exercises in showing the pain caused by racism, sexism, ethnic and religious persecution are excellent teaching tools. Age 14 is not too young to begin this process. It all depends on how the kids were treated. If they took this experiment too far, well that needs to be assessed.
At 14 being exposed to the darkness and ugliness of life is not only a good thing, it is necessary or they will not survive. He cried, what a great teaching opportunity without the pathological nurturers wanting to jump in and protect him.

I love my sons, but I will not only teach them to be sensitive, but also hearty and develop a thicker skin in order to deal with the hardships of life. Balance is key as either end of the spectrum (Abuse vs. smothering nurturism) are not good to model and promote.

[DiverDave]

308. Best post in the whole thread

I like the way you think, and I want to teach my sons (8 and 5) the same thing.

[progressivebydesign]

316. My daughter just told me that her 9th grade friends are doing this.

Tho in that class it was much more severe.. the lower class kids (chosen at random) were forced to clean up after the "better" kids, and crawl around on all fours, etc. Did any of the kids complain?? NO! Did the parents complain? No! ANd what did the 9th graders (who are roughly the same ages as some kids in 8th grade) say about this???? They were HUMBLED by the experience and hurt to know that in this day people are still treated that way in the world, and that people have been treated like that, and worse. They got it! No parents had to sue, no kids were crying... the kids loved the experience because it was real world.

You know, by having some of those whiny 8th graders crying to Mommy and Daddy about this to "fix it", just completely illustrates the point of why that is a necessary exercise. The people who ARE treated like that in history and even today (India's caste system), have NO ONE to complain to.. and no way to fix it.

[savemefromdumbya]

323. More appropriate if children went to see play or movie

I'm not sure if it benefits by playacting themselves on this subject, at that age. I think it would be better for them to see a play or movie.

[Neil Lisst]

342. Update for those those don't think this was a great idea.

I have spoken with (1) the television station, (2) a local longtime Dem activist there, (3) a well-known plaintiff's attorney there, and (4) a well-known Jewish attorney who sometimes gets involved in such issues in that city and county.

We'll see where it goes this week.

That is all I'm willing to say on the matter right now, other than the attorneys and the activist are as concerned as I am.

[sheelz]

349. Thanks!

Some think this is a laughing matter.