1984: Its a Reference -- Who here has read it?

[IdaBriggs]

Poll question: 1984: Its a Reference -- Who here has read it?

Just checking.

[JanMichael]

1. I prefer Iron Heel by Jack London but I also love 1984.

Actually one could also toss in "It Can't Happen Here" by Lewis when searching for what we can and are becomming.

[bleever]

2. Iron Heel is an excellent book.

I think it's time to reread it.

[coalition_unwilling]

23. I prefer "Catch-22", especially the part about the

loyalty oaths.

Yossarian is my God.

[David Zephyr]

36. Re-read it. It seems so prophetic now.

:thumbsup:

[David Zephyr]

35. I have a first edition in mint condition of London's Iron Heel.

It's a great book, one of my all time favorites and has great dialog between the characters that breaks down socialism in an easy manner to understand. I love this book, JanMichael.

[JanMichael]

42. Is that IT?? Wow. Beautiful.

I don't own too many early edition books but that's one that I'd really appreciate!

How did you get it?

[David Zephyr]

46. Got it on EBAY.

This is not a photo of my copy, but mine looks just the same.

I also have the 1st of Ten Days that Shook the World, The Jungle, Oil and others.

I saw your nod to the great Iron Heel and I've been a long time fan of your posts anyway, so I just had to say, "hi" and brag a bit about my book, too.

[JanMichael]

51. Yikes. Sounds like quite the Lefty library.

BTW you've had some outstanding posts on DU over the years. No wonder you've got a magnificent card catalogue to work from!

[ShortnFiery]

57. Lucky You!

I have the regular paperback version but I treasure it (the story - lesson) none the less. :hi:

[Octafish]

48. Brave New World is nice.

Barbarous Boosh referred to Poppy's big thinking thing as:

"The brave new world order."

I josh you not.

[BlooInBloo]

3. Animal Farm rocks too...

... many similar ideas, presented more simplictically - perfect for today's America.

[McCamy Taylor]

4. Dont forget "Brave New World" where they make you WANT it.

[skooooo]

6. Also the Russian book "We"...

...which proceeded 1984, but is very similar.

[Ron Green]

7. I agree. "Brave New World" is much closer to what we've got,

with the Free Market more powerful than the State or the Church, it owns both of them, and us, through its power to appeal to the lizard brain.

[Marie26]

10. Better written, too. nt

[TahitiNut]

15. "Brave New World" has some interesting thematic parallels to

... Shakespeare's "The Tempest." I'm sure that Huxley took the title from Miranda's exclamation upon seeing the shipwrecked sailors, "how beauteous mankind is! Oh brave new world, that has such people in it!" Indeed, the Savage echoes these words as well. I noticed this and brought it up to my high school English teacher (in 1961) and I don't think I ever saw him more energized - as he gave me an extra assignment to write up a paper on the parallels. It was a good lesson. I learned to keep my mouth shut. (Hell. I was a guy and good at math, not English!) :dunce:

[coalition_unwilling]

24. I don't think "learn[ing] to keep [your] mouth shut" was the

point of the lesson :) (speaking on behalf of all current and former English teachers).

"The Tempest" is one of Shakespeare's "Romances," while "Brave New World" is a "Dystopia". As such, I'm not sure there is much to compare, except for the fact that the title of the latter is derived from Miranda's utterance in the former.

[TahitiNut]

37. It's good that wasn't the lesson - since I keep forgetting it.

:dunce:

One of the parallels I recall drawing was the innocence of the Savage and Miranda, and how their impressions of a 'new' world was (naively) based on their experience in their 'old' world. Their 'journeys' of discovery had some parallels, too. In a sense, Miranda makes a 'journey' from a magical bounded 'world' to one of (modern?) unbounded 'savagery' while the Savage went from a natural bounded world to one of unbounded magic ('science'). Looking at it another way, they both went from being close to nature to an artificial (man-made) world. I also saw some parallels for Caliban and Ariel, but the nature of it escapes me 45 years later - maybe something to do with the Deltas and Gammas. Can't recall.

[coalition_unwilling]

58. It has been ages since I read "Brave New World" (as a junior

in high school), so I can't remember much of its plot, characters or theme(s), aside from my general memory of it as a "Dystopia".

I guess the point I was trying to make is that "The Tempest" holds out the possibility of love, forgiveness, redemption and, thereby, transcendance. I don't think "Brave New World" holds out much of a possibility for any of the afore-mentioned. But I should re-read it before I go spouting off.

[TahitiNut]

59. I think one thing needs emphasis - the "grass is greener" factor.

In both 1984 and The Tempest, we have a collision of societies, either one of which might be called dystopian or utopian by some, depending on perspective. Let's remember that Prospero's island could, by some (including the sailors), be viewed as utopian. Miranda suggests that isn't her view.

Another point (and yes, it's been a while for me too) might be that dystopias are often portrayed as the "unintended consequences" of contemporary aspirations realized - usually the absence of a commonly experienced problem. I remind myself that the automobile was embraced as a solution to a pollution problem!! There's something hugely ironic about 'ecologists' of the day being zealous proponents of the automobile and internal combustion engines. I wonder whether a literary portrayal of the alternative pollution of the automobile being a major contributor to smog and global warming could have made folks happier to live with shovelling horse manure.

But I'm a math and computer geek - I know nothing of English or literature. :dunce:

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. My edition has a foreword by Huxley written several years later

(slight spolier coming) in which he too says that if he was writing it again, he would put in some 'middle way' between the poverty and religious mania of the reservation, and the loveless mechanism of the wider world. However, I think he does have somewhere a bit like that - the writers' colony to which Helmholtz Watson is banished at the end, when it's clear he's a danger in the main society.

The thing about 'Brave New World' is that it isn't a violent society. While everyone's been conditioned to conform, neither they nor the state use violence - when there's a 'riot' (no significant injuries) it's broken up with sleeping gas.

[IdaBriggs]

5. Wow -- we are an amazingly well read group.

I wonder how many of the "freepers" can say yes to this question?

Perhaps that is one of our many problems -- they aren't a very well educated bunch of people?

:shrug:

[Marie26]

8. Yes, though I hated it. nt

[IdaBriggs]

20. Why? No argument; just curious. What, in particular, made you hate it? nt

[mdmc]

21. not answering for Marie, but it is pretty scary

I mean, out of the 96% that responded to your poll "YES", I wonder how many of them have faith that the Dem party can do something to protect us from the corporations?

1984 is very scary.

[Marie26]

25. There's no hope in it

I've rarely had such a negative reaction to a book; but I read it over 10 years ago, so I can hardly remember why. The main character, supposedly a "hero", was quite selfish & the "heroine" was as well. There was no one to really root for & or hope for. And the ending was profoundly depressing, w/the "hero" falling into the conformist brainwashing. The whole book was just oppressive & crushing - which was probably Orwell's point, but didn't make it much fun to read. You need some hope to keep reading a novel like that. "Brave New World" was better, I think, because it at least offered a way out. All that said, though, 1984 turned out to be incredibly prophetic w/it's illustration of how governments use "newspeak" & propaganda to further their agendas. So it's a classic for that alone. Sometimes it feels like Bush & Co. are using it as a playbook.

[IdaBriggs]

39. I completely understand your point of view!

:hug:

[Book Lover]

44. Orwell did that deliberately

He said after it was published that if he had not been dying while he wrote it, it would have had a happier ending.

[Touchdown]

60. Not defending her, but...

1984 isn't a book you're supposed to like. It's supposed to scare the shit out of you, so that you can prevent the dystopia described from ever happening. It's like Platoon. That's a well done, thought provoking film, but not a film your supposed to "enjoy". It's not Coca Cola.

My problem with 1984 is that there's no back story. How did these people of Oceania fall for this? What events took place earlier that brought us to this? I guess that's the point, since Winston can't ever be sure of when or how much chocolate rationing has been a week ago, and who they were at war with at any given time, because there's no record of anything contrary to the current narrative in existence, but I would still like to know the warning signs.

Also, something else that he deliberately did, is to make me question whether or not Eastasia and Eurasia were actually autocratic oligarchies like Oceania was. All we know about them is through Oceania's Ministry of Truth filter, and were just supposed to accept that as fact that no human is safe from tyranny in 1984, no matter where they live.:shrug:

[Minnesota Libra]

9. Yes, I read it back when the book simply seemed prophetic but now.........

....we are actually living it. OMG, I hate Bush and company.

[Greyskye]

11. "we have always been at war with Eurasia"

same shit, different story.

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. THOUGHT CRIME!

We are at war with East Asia. We have always been at war with East Asia.

[Greyskye]

28. oh no!!!

not the rats again!!! arghhhhhh!!!!! :yoiks:

:scared:

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. Those East Asian spies are tricky

Putting up all those banners and fake posters proclaiming our everlasting, loyal allies of Eurasia are our enemies. They even managed to put out some propaganda videos of Big Brother declaring that East Asia is our ally against our sworn enemy, Eurasia! Oh, well, into the memory hole it all goes, never to trouble us again.

[long_green]

40. Eastasia. It is one word.

Have to report you. Sorry.

[Touchdown]

61. Party member 147641...Greyskye! Room 101!

Good luck Comrade!;)

[Greyskye]

68. That's what I said, we've ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia! Really!

It's not my fault, it was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work! Aaaahhhh!

[NoPasaran]

12. I've read it

Although I think Homage to Catalonia is Orwell's best book.

[Virginia Dare]

14. Actually it was required reading in High School...

it scared the hell out me. Little did I know....

[radio4progressives]

16. Yeah.. It was required reading in High School for me too, back in 1966.

As well as Brave New World - both were required reading..

Mike Malloy did a reading of 1984 on the air over a period of a few weeks recently - it was damn fine job, and worth listening to after all these decades - things i had forgotten - and other things i didn't quite understand when reading it in High School back 1966. I believe these reading segments are actually archived over at whiterose.org - i'm not positive but i understood these were going to be..

again, i recommend listening to Mike's reading because he gives it this really interesting texture to the narrative, also Kathy does the reading for Winston's girl friend and which gives the read even more dimension.

[slackmaster]

17. It wasn't meant as prophesy - Orwell was writing about HIS time

1984 was really about 1948.

[TheBaldyMan]

18. The most important part is the essay on Newspeak at the end.

It's OK as a novel but the essay is one of the funniest and frightening things I've ever read. It becomes more relevant with each passing day.

It's also essential reading to understand the novel or film.

[leeroysphitz]

19. For a "fun" glimpse at what unbridled corporatism run amok

might be like read the novel "Jennifer Government" by Max Barry. You can finish it in a night but it might leave you pondering what's going on RIGHT NOW for weeks to come.

[Marie26]

26. Also a Wrinkle in Time, for teens. nt

[BlooInBloo]

27. That entire "trilogy" is excellent....

I put trilogy in quotes because L'Engle wrote another one (or more maybe) after the third...

[guinivere]

45. I loved A Wrinkle in Time!

I have read both 1984 and Brave New World. I did like Brave New World better.

[IdaBriggs]

55. Madeleine L'Engle is INCREDIBLE.

I loved "Wrinkle in Time," "A Wind in the Door", and "A Swiftly Tilting Planet" (which was my favorite). The fourth in the series ("Many Waters") was okay, but wasn't as good, in my opinion. :)

[ismnotwasm]

22. I read it

And Brave New World, and a few others.
But it's been years, I think it's time for a revisit to some of those old friends I thought were sci-fi at the time. Just to see If I'll be as horrified as I think I'll be. As horrified as I KNOW I'll be

[Junkdrawer]

29. Part 2, Chapter 9 is an amazing piece of political analysis...

The blueprint for the Thousand Year Reich....

[baldguy]

63. 1984 is a warning, not an instruction manual.

[im10ashus]

30. Good book.

Frighteningly similar to our current times.

I also like "The Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood.

[laundry_queen]

38. I read the Handmaid's Tale as a young teen

And it scared me silly, as a young girl, but at the time it was also so far fetched that I sort of dismissed the 'scared' feelings. Now it doesn't seem so far fetched.
Oryx and Crake was interesting too. In one, the religious nuts rule, in the other, the pharmaceutical companies rule. And here we are living a life where both are in cahoots with each other. :scared:

[stop the bleeding]

31. required reading for me, should be required for all US Citizens n/t

[Fleshdancer]

32. Yes, and here's a tip....

I read it a long time ago and then re-read it two, maybe three years ago. I don't recommend reading it right now...it'll make you paranoid as hell. Very creepy stuff during these times.

Brave New World was good too from what I remember. I have it around here somewhere, maybe I'll read it again. It's been a decade and I forgot most of the details. Someone up-thread brought up Animal Farm which is also a blast from my reading past. Maybe that's what I'll do for the next few months...re-read novels I haven't read in forever.

[Armstead]

34. Probably the most depressing book ever written

Samuel Beckett is comic relief compared to 1984.


Apart from its current relevance as a cautiionary take, it gets very deep into the general Heart of Darkness of both human nature and social power.

[Neil Lisst]

41. it is more important now than ever

[edbermac]

43. Read the book, saw the movie...

[Touchdown]

62. Excellent film. Richard Burton's last.

I got the DVD for about $8 someplace. Follows the book very closely, and is as bleak as the book is.

Factoid: It was filmed in 1984 during the time that the events in the book were to be taking place.

[FatDave]

47. Read it in 1984

I definitely need to reread it, I think a lot of it was lost on my 14-year-old mind.

Catch 22 is an all-time favorite and should be required reading for anyone who can read. Haven't read Brave New World, think I'll do it soon based on the reccomendations here.

On a similar note, I watched Network yesterday for the first time in over a decade. It had a far greater impact yesterday than it did in the mid-90's. It was spooky.

[NJ Democrats]

49. Yes, I've read it.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

50. Read it in 1963

when I was 14 and visiting relatives in San Jose. My cousin had bought the book for 9th grade lit class whereas we back in the pothandle were still in our "readers" :eyes: Definitely saw the prophetic possibilities.

[VOX]

52. "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."

Pretty much describes the GOP playbook from cover to cover. :grr:

[Cleita]

53. Had to read it the first time in high school, along with

"Animal Farm" and "The Scarlet Letter". My English teacher must have been a liberal.:-)

[Alamom]

54. A favorite, read in the 60's as well as Brave New World. n/t

[bush_is_wacko]

56. Read it in HS and can't remember any of it.

I know that is terrible and I should re-read it now but I just don't have the heart to read anymore about what we should have seen coming. It is just too damn depressing.

Sorry, this is one of my down days I guess.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

64. 1984 is available to read online - link

http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/books/1984.htm

[Greyskye]

66. And here's another - searchable

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

[Beausoir]

67. Other. Read it several times. No prophet but it is relevant. n/t