Mexican Immigration Problem Solved? Buy Mexico!!!

[IdaBriggs]

Seriously, how much can it cost? Let's just turn them into the 51st thru 55th states, and be done with the whole problem.

Discuss.

:evilgrin:

[rustydog]

1. We'll make them an offer thay can't refuse...

of course the heads of the five families will line up against us....

[VirtualChicano]

4. Is that so?

[Orrex]

13. Hey, welcome to DU!

:hi:

[VirtualChicano]

53. Thanks

:)

[Orrex]

2. If we buy/annex Mexico, Lou Dobbs will have nothing more to bitch about!

It may be worthwhile for that reason alone.

[VirtualChicano]

3. Just return what you stole

Just return what you stole from Mexico and all problems will be solved. see how easy that is? Just give it back.

<typo>

[IdaBriggs]

5. Tell you what -- you can have Texas back, but we want to keep California!

(Didn't we steal California from Spain?)

[IsItJustMe]

11. Please take the chimp back with you when you take Texas? Please?

[democrat_patriot]

6. Arizona and Texas?

[VirtualChicano]

7. All 9 states

All nine states

[democrat_patriot]

8. We stole them fair and square.

Seeing as Mexico is such a pretty place, we'll keep them for their own good.

[IdaBriggs]

14. Name them, please, and when we stole them. Edit: FOUND!

Are you sure we stole *all* of them from Mexico? (I'm not as up on my nineteenth century American history as I could be!) :)

Actually, according to Wikipedia, we didn't "steal" them -- we ended up getting them IN A TREATY *and* we PAID for them already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_War

The Treaty of Cahuenga, signed on January 13, 1847, ended the fighting in California. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848, ended the war and gave the U.S undisputed control of Texas as well as California, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming. In return, Mexico received $18,250,000, the equivalent of $627,500,000 in mid-2000s dollars.

[democrat_patriot]

17. New hampshire, Montana and Kansas

are but 3.

[VirtualChicano]

42. those were the old - original - border states

some of them, that is

[IsItJustMe]

9. That seems to be the same logic that the Arabs use against the

Israelis. At some point, that dog don't hunt anymore.

[VirtualChicano]

10. Actually, The Old Zionists

Actually, The Old Zionists are dying off. settlements are being bulldozed and lands returned to the Palestinians

[democrat_patriot]

16. Let's bulldoze Texas than.

Sounds like a solid plan.

[VirtualChicano]

54. I'm from L.A.

but i dont think they'd like that LoL

[Bridget Burke]

56. If they bulldozed Arizona....

How could anyone tell?

[OutsidetheBox]

22. Yeah, except there is a difference of about 1900 years

One was lived in by Arabs for 1900 years while Mexico's stolen land was much, much more recent (1800's). Historically there is a huge difference. Also, Arabs were indigenous peoples displaced by Europeans while the southwest and California (once owned by indigenous Mexicans) would be returned to indigenous Mexicans

[sandnsea]

12. That would be real free trade

A real free trade agreement would make Mexico no different economically than any US state. Real free trade would mean I could order prescriptions from Mexico. Real free trade would mean a completely open border. Doing business there would be as easy as them working here. It would also mean we'd all have to have the same environmental and labor protections, and figure out something with wages so they would be level within ten years or so. If we did it right, I'd support it. But we won't because the people are too stupid and racist to understand the benefits, and the corporates will always take advantage of that.

[VirtualChicano]

19. Free Trade Will Never Happen

Free Trade Will Never Happen because Mexico will never give it's oil to the U.S.

[enid602]

15. Mexico

I think you got it bass-ackerds; they'd more likely buy us. Mexico is the second largest source of direct investment into the US; they could get us to change any of our policies just by threatening to pull out said investments. That's the bad thing about owing everyone so much money. Kind of like dollar diplomacy in reverse. Neither lender nor borrower be.

[OutsidetheBox]

18. How about we return all the land we stole from them?

California and the Southwest already are full of brownies, many of them living there since before it was bamboozled, might as well just return what was taken. That should solve the problem. Then we can ethnically cleanse, I mean deport, the remaining millions back to pre-1821 borders. We can finally have an America free of brownies, a homeland that is pure and perfect.... Now, how to get rid of those that were once our slaves?

[VirtualChicano]

20. Great Idea

I Agre, whities should leave. Goodbye, adios and dont let the door hit you on the way out

[democrat_patriot]

23. Should they leave the infrastructure?

We can burn Phoenix and than the air will resemble Mexico City.

[VirtualChicano]

26. Yes,

Yes, leave the schools, thank you.

[OutsidetheBox]

31. We could all learn burning cities well from the British...

[enfield collector]

24. dude I find your racism offensive.

[VirtualChicano]

28. Dude, I was called "brownie"

and I find that offensive

[OutsidetheBox]

29. It's called sarcasm...duhh

[VirtualChicano]

34. No problem, whitey

duh

[Bridget Burke]

57. Hey, you didn't say "pinche gabacho"....

What's his problem?

[IdaBriggs]

21. We didn't STEAL it; we PAID for it. See Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_War

The Treaty of Cahuenga, signed on January 13, 1847, ended the fighting in California. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed on February 2, 1848, ended the war and gave the U.S undisputed control of Texas as well as California, Nevada, Utah, and parts of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming. In return, Mexico received $18,250,000, the equivalent of $627,500,000 in mid-2000s dollars.

[OutsidetheBox]

27. Of course there were payments...

but Manifest Destiny was not going to take no for an answer... That is akin to a woman being raped at gunpoint and then the rapist leaves her with a 10 dollar bill. The US had just gone to war over land, was threatening more violence, had Mexico's president prisoner, and wanted the land. To say that Mexico accepted willingly is not doing history justice. It was stolen, in no uncertain terms. The rest is pure semantics...

[IdaBriggs]

40. So, who signed the treaty and collected the cash?

I'm fairly confident the army wasn't running around with it, so one can only assume that THE GOVERNMENT OF MEXICO collected the funds.

The rape analogy is not really correct, in my opinion, unless you want to make a "Sabine Women" type of analogy -- one hundred and eighty years later, while the folks who live there may be considered to have Mexican heritage, they are still United States citizens (and I don't care what color they are); the deal was made legally, and reparations were paid.

The Mexican government, by the way, was certainly not comprised of "native Americans" at that point, was it? The Mayans, the Incas, and the Aztecs had fluid borders for centuries, depending on who was in charge, and the "native peoples" were ... what is the word? Movable?

So, I'm going to go out on a legal limb here, and say that the Mexican government, which had been in charge of the land for less than a hundred years in 1837 was still legally entitled to sell off their own land as long as they did it under the laws of their government (which they did). Six Hundred Twenty Seven MILLION DOLLARS is not a "ten dollar" rape insult, in my eyes (although it wouldn't cover much time in Iraq, would it?)

[OutsidetheBox]

47. Actually President Santa Ana was held for ransom and..

under duress signed away half of Mexico for what amounted to pennies for such lands. Under threat of continued war Mexico was forced to sell off over half its country. $627,000,000 for half of Mexico is not an insult? Are you kidding me? You know how much the WTC towers were valued at and insured for? billions! for 2 towers and you say that $627,000,000 for an area from California to Texas up to the tip of Utah and Colorado is not rape and an insult? Please. I suggest reading Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States for a more thorough historical analysis of the stealing of half of Mexico than Wikipedia. The rape analysis is not only correct but metaphorically accurate. Regardless of who was in power, and Benito Juarez was Latin America's first indigenous President by the way, the US wanted the land and paid shit for it. Mexico had no choice but to accomodate the growing gluttony of Manifest Destiny.

[IdaBriggs]

51. The twin towers were developed land; most of the land we got in the

deal was not. (How much dessert?) If you want to be upset about something that happened in 1837, go for it. I think there are other issues to focus on; yes, the war sucked, and the Mexican army got its butt handed to them. Mexico started it, and the United States finished it, and the time to whine about it was during the period when you could hold any of the people accountable who committed the crime.

Comparing a twenty-first century developed and robust economy with nineteenth century Mexico is a joke, in my opinion, albeit an amusing one, but for the sake of argument, find just a little over half a billion dollars, plus the cost of improvement, and I'll be happy to sell you pieces of it back. Or, sell me the rest of your country, and quit playing "my Mexican heritage" games.

If you weren't alive to actually suffer the crimes you are whining about, and neither were your parents, or even your grandparents, its time to get over it and move on.

My post is about solving the illegal immigration problem by taking over Mexico, which is apparently unable to support all of its people in such a way that they want to stay there. If you have a better idea (since we know there is a ton of undeveloped land still available in Mexico, but not a lot of people with working toilets), then share it. :)

(And before you get all self-righteous on your heritage, my grandmother was a "half breed" who suffered terribly because of her "injun" hood, while my great-grandpa on the other side was a member of the KKK, who would probably roll over in his grave if he saw his "mixed" African American grandchildren by one of my sibs. Times change, and the shape of your nose is of less interest to me than the status of the human rights your civilization enjoys -- and if I don't like them, I'm going to keep working to change them!)

[OutsidetheBox]

55. Where did you get the idea that I was Mexican? I'm not...

I just pursue the truth and justice and you are seriously distorting both. Mexico didn't start the war. Are you serious? Please do your homework. Hint: Read up on Howard Zinn, or other historians, not the history you just read on Wikipedia, itself a joke. Also, you are the one that put the worth of the land in TODAY'S dollars, so my opinion reflects TODAY'S prices. Come on, don't give me this undeveloped/developed land bullshit. Six of the largest American states for only $650 million dollars, undeveloped, in today's prices. Now THAT is a joke!! How much would it be worth today, in non rape dollars, for the six states, undeveloped? I'd say it would run into the trillions of dollars. Huge rape, pure and simple. Up the ass, too! As far as undocumented workers, the US took over Mexico decades ago. It is called market colonialism, an enormous reason why there exists so much migrant entry into the US.

[IdaBriggs]

62. Sorry, got you confused with "VirtualChicano", who is also new.

(And welcome to DU, by the way.)

Please read further up thread where I bluntly state that I am not as up on my nineteenth century mid-west American history as I should be -- but I am AWESOME at medieval European! :)

Anyway, my information is pretty limited to the Wikipedia stuff, which said that Mexico started it, and that Texas was a "runaway province" ala Taiwain for about ten years before the United States got involved. I did not put the LAND at today's dollars; I put the money PAID in today's dollars, which is a nice chunk of change in the nineteenth century, especially for a whole lot of dessert and undeveloped land.

Like I said, I think the rape analogy is wrong, and I don't think "truth and justice" are being adequately represented in your argument, especially since both truth and justice have as many viewpoints and perspectives as there are eyes to see.

For example, what was the legal situation in Mexico at the time? If the Mexican government approved a treaty giving away half the country, and collected money for it, then the Mexican government was not raped, but paid. A bad decision by a bad leader does not negate the treaty (as anyone watching the United States slither into stupidity under the current administration will tell you -- we still have to go along with the stupid decisions -- even when we hate them -- ARGH!!!).

Was it "nice"? Probably not. Are the people who live there better off than they were under the rule of the Mexican government? I don't know. Perhaps someone versed in these things can do a study comparing standards of living, health care and civil liberties each decade on both sides of the (fluid) border from 1837 to the present day, and figure out if it turned into a good deal for the majority of the citizens. :shrug:

The bottom line is that there is no one *alive* with the right to a blood feud over this issue any longer (which is unlike the situation in Israel, where folks who were forced out of their homes can still see them today).

But, that really doesn't address the question which my original post asked, does it? So, let's go back it -- should we just "buy" or "annex" or "conquer" Mexico, and treat them like PART OF THE UNITED STATES, giving the citizens of the entire content the same rights, responsibilities, and opportunities? Would it be painful short term? Would it work long term?

Would the states of Mexico like to be represented in Washington? Or are they too sane to want to work with our politicians?

The question is somewhat facetious, but still an interesting one. I've been to the touristy areas of Mexico, and some of the non-tourist ones, too, and I have always been impressed with "Mexican pride" in their cultural heritage and identity. Nationalism is a part of our life these days; I wonder whether it is really a virtue?

[Bridget Burke]

58. Ah, Santa Ana....

Merciless in Victory. Craven in Defeat.

[OutsidetheBox]

59. Pure pussy, selling out a nation to cover his own ass!

One of the worst President's in Mexican History, Mexico's George W. Bush. A terrible elitist promoted from within, inbred yet diluted blood, everything he touched turned to shit. Too bad he came along at the wrong time for the Mexicans.

[IdaBriggs]

63. Dear God -- we know who George W. Bush was reincarnated from now!

:)

[VirtualChicano]

33. It also guaranteed the original land grants

It also guaranteed the original land grants and exhisting land ownership rights, which the "Americans" (caugh, caugh) violated

[mitchtv]

35. we bought it

hahahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa
after the treaty

[VirtualChicano]

38. Were taking it back

hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[IdaBriggs]

43. Pay back the $627,00,000 (that's Six Hundred Twenty Seven MILLION)

PLUS IMPROVEMENTS and its all yours! :)

[mwooldri]

61. Adjusting for inflation? (n/t)

[VirtualChicano]

67. Buy back what was stolen?

No

[IdaBriggs]

70. They got paid, hence it wasn't stolen. nt

[NNN0LHI]

37. And we bought the rest of America from the Indians for some colorful beads

:rofl:

[K-W]

71. Hahahahaha

That is priceless.

[enfield collector]

25. how about we start by returning your state to the Native Americans?

[VirtualChicano]

30. Mexicans are Mexica

Memebrs of the Ute tribes descended from Clovis man

[mitchtv]

39. Mexicans are mestizo

New Mexicans especially
you'll only get SoCal back, Arguello's clain to NorCal was tenuous at best. Norcal will cast it's fate with Cascadia

[VirtualChicano]

46. Mestizo by Rape

not by choice. and the Spaniards that came left their genes and ran. they did not continue to replinish their bloodline and, therefor, most of their genes have diminished to nil. 90% of Mexicans today have little or no European blood in them (us, me) :)

[coalition_unwilling]

32. Don't forget that Iraq is to be the 51st state (eom)

[mitchtv]

44. I think Isreal already has dibs on that star

[coalition_unwilling]

45. Oh, yeah, I forgot. Although opinion differs on whether

Israel is a state or simply a land-locked U.S. aircraft carrier :)

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ksec]

36. Buy Mexico? Hell we dont even own the USA anymore !

Maybe they could outsource Mexico to China and get even cheaper labor.

[VirtualChicano]

41. hehe

that was funny

[nolabels]

48. The stupid answer is the International CORPORATIONS ignore borders

When or where ever possible (except when they want to use them to screw their workers). If we are all being rendered down to just a cog in market share then debating about who owns and controls what by country of origin is a fools game. The concept to many to many of the Native Americans groups was that being land ownership is of a weird concept.

They were way ahead of the euros on enviromentalism also :P

[XemaSab]

49. They only get to be 4 states???

I thought they had 30-something states.

I think they should be the 51st through 80th states! :bounce:

On edit: *including* the two senators each! :bounce: :bounce:

[IdaBriggs]

52. Okay. I'm flexible. :) nt

[Cleita]

60. Not a bad idea if we had a legitimate government and if

the Mexicans were willing to do that, but we have an illegal government right now who rigged two elections to gain power. It wouldn't solve the problem in the long run anyway because there will always be a southern border with poor, starving people trying to enter any way they can.

What we really need to do is clean up the whole hemisphere. We should all become Canadians.

:evilgrin:

[IdaBriggs]

64. Best idea yet!!!

:evilgrin:

[Zorra]

65. They won't sell. At the rate that immigrants are crossing the

border, the US will be a Mexican colony by 2050.

[AzDar]

66. 40 % (!) of the landmass in Mexico is not allowed to be purchased/held

by foreigners.

[xchrom]

68. not necessary -- we are becoming a latin american country

with very strong mexican roots.

fine with me.

[lectrobyte]

69. It's practically a state now. But the kind of state our corporate

masters love. Cheap labor, no pesky environmental concerns, and so on...

[Fridays Child]

72. Yeah, and And B*sh can raise the money by selling Canada.

That Jeff Foxworthy clip cracked me up! :rofl:

[Catherine Vincent]

73. If I was rich enough, I would definitely purchase the island of Cozumel!