I think I have finally climbed down off the immigration fence.

[Pacifist Patriot]

I have long waffled on this issue. I've been able to see the pros and cons on both sides of the issue. Today, I've made up my mind.

Open the borders! I need to see people wanting to come to the U.S. to remind me that this country isn't as fucked up as I fear it is.

[screembloodymurder]

1. That will destroy this country, but as long as I can move to Canada

who gives a shit.

[bliss_eternal]

3. ...and the country isn't already a huge mess

from the damage of this administration? What have they not destroyed thus far?

[msongs]

2. ha ha that's funny nt

[xchrom]

4. basically i'm with you.

we are related, in particular, to mexico.

we have many citizens here who have relatives there -- not to mention that much of the u.s. was at one time mexico -- and not so long ago.

here is some reading you might find interesting.

and by the way -- high wage immigrants that come from say scandanavia also help to keep native born american wages in check. if one cares to think along those lines.

http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/Immigration.html
The Impact of Immigrants on Native Earnings



There are two opposing views about how immigrants affect the labor market opportunities of American natives. One view is that they have a harmful effect because immigrants and natives tend to have similar skills and compete for the same jobs, thus driving down the native wage. The other view is that the services of immigrants and natives are not interchangeable, but rather complement each other. For instance, some immigrant groups may be unskilled but particularly adept at harvesting crops. Immigration then increases native productivity and wages because natives can specialize in tasks for which they are better suited.

The first view is more likely correct. Economists who have rejected this view on the basis of evidence have looked at somewhat superficial data. These economists speculated that if the services of natives and immigrants are interchangeable, natives should earn less in cities where immigrants are in abundant supply, such as Los Angeles or New York, than in cities with few immigrants, such as Nashville or Pittsburgh. Although natives do earn somewhat less in cities that have large immigrant populations, the correlation between the native wage and the presence of immigrants is weak. If one city has 10 percent more immigrants than another, the native wage in the city with the most immigrants is only 0.2 percent lower.

i'm not a libertarian but this piece does some justice to dispelling the myth of ''illegal immigrants and wages.

http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.shtml

In 1989, the U.S. Department of Labor reviewed nearly 100 studies on the relationship between immigration and unemployment and concluded that "neither U.S. workers nor most minority workers appear adversely affected by immigration."

very detailed evidence about ''illegal'' immigration, over all wages continue to rise -- with of course complications in specific sectors.

http://are.berkeley.edu/courses/EEP39C/Immigration.htm

http://www.nationalreview.com/ponnuru/ponnuru200603170753.asp

Almost all of the things that cause people to complain about illegal immigration are true of much legal immigration as well. If your worry is that illegal immigrants tend to raise government spending, for example, then you ought to be worried about legal immigrants, too. Half of legal immigrants have not gone past high school. Like illegal immigrants, they cost federal and state governments billions of dollars each year.

Or perhaps you’re concerned that illegal immigrants hurt low-income workers by driving low-end wages down. If so, you should be almost as concerned about legal immigration. Illegal immigrants tend to be paid less than legal immigrants, but the difference is small and largely reflects the fact that on average illegal immigrants have slightly less education than legal immigrants.

http://ehrenreich.blogs.com/barbaras_blog/2006/01/are_illegal_imm.html

The real shocker in the study is that 49 percent of the day laborers interviewed said they were regularly hired – not by contractors, companies of any kind, and certainly not “big corporations” – but by American homeowners. I’d just heard Bay Buchanan (sister of Pat) on Lou Dobbs’ show fulminating about the “big corporations” that are hiring all the illegal immigrants, but – surprise!—it’s the guy next door who needs his house painted or his lawn mowed.

http://www.newsbatch.com/immigration.htm

facts, figures and links on the immigration issue.

[justice1]

9. I don't have the time to go through all your links, but...

I have seen much of this same information before. You can not combine the wages of people from the U.K., and other skilled workers that immigrated legally,from developed countries, with an unskilled illegal work force, to understand the impact illegal laborers have on the economy.

[Double T]

5. We don't need to open our borders to a cheap labor force.......

so corporate america can improve their bottom line. 'Slave labor' wages are what is wiping out the future of the middle class not only in the USA, but with other industrialized countries throughout the world. Our congress, on both sides of the aisle, is bowing once again before their maker, corporate america, to provide the robber barons of industry and wall street with a 'slave wages' labor force within our own borders. I have not got a prejudice bone in my body; the Mexican people need to get their own government straightened out and force the Mexican government to pay the working class a decent wage. Amnesty followed by immigration will be the the final sword lunged into the USA middle class and delivery of the USA middle class' ear to Vincente Fox.

[AwareOne]

6. Right on Double T, finally some one gets it

I hear all the talk on the radio and TV about immigrants doing "work americans won't do". To that I reply BULLSHIT! Come to my county that has been booming for the last 10 years with construction. My service job takes me to these construction jobs every day, luxury condos, Golf courses, single family developments with dozens of houses under construction at once. I guess that 85% of the work is being done by illegals. Masonry, framing, plumbing, roofing, every phase, I see it EVERY day. People are buying these houses expecting that they were built by journeyman craftsman and they are paying dearly for it. Instead the houses are built by laborers who are kept on task by a few white overloads who go from house to house and check on them now and then. The home buyer gets riped off, the American workers get riped off and the immigrants get exploited too. The builders make out like bandits, no wonder they control the politics of the county.

[outraged19]

7. immigration

I agree with Double T.

As I watch the immigration and border control, antiterrorism debates go on in our government I write to my representatives that I am angry. What an understatement of my feelings.

That strong, comprehensive, & effective border control & antiterrorism policy is needed shouldn't even be an issue. It is the very purpose of government to secure our rights and well being. That this was ever neglected is a grievous offense to all who live here, citizens and to those who are not citizens.

On the issue of immigration the government is clearly out of touch. We have good reason to demand & pay attention to everything said & done by our representatives on this issue. Our legal immigration system has served this nation well for much of its history. In the 1970's the only problem our immigration system had was that it was difficult for reunification of families. Our laws have been changed by those who are supposed to represent the American citizens. A system that once worked, is now broken. They admit that the system is broken. They do not admit that they broke the system nor acknowledge their reasons why.

Immigration policies affect every American in every aspect of lives. It is a means of controlling our population. Anything that leads to massive increases in our population:

1. Affects our labor market & therefore the prevailing wages of all, & thus our ability to survive and support our families. The majority of Americans must work to survive. The corporations are only a means of investing savings for our retirement for the majority of the American population. Most do not live off of them as a means of income. The impact on our wages affects us more strongly than corporate effects on our budgets. More Americans have always worked for small to moderate businesses than in corporations. Too much emphasis has been placed on corporate needs affecting us, when it is the impact of small business growth that affects us more as a nation. There was a time when corporate impact could have hurt us more. Corporate futures used to be intertwined with the future of the Americans who worked for them. They used to help provide our means of health care & retirement. Therefore it used to make sense to remain loyal to entities whose futures affected our own. This is no longer the case. Most no longer choose to help provide health care, pensions, or job security. Why should we help protect them? It is unjust that they have lobbied to force us to invest in their 401k's, robbing our ability to invest in other structures which might better serve our interest now. It is a heinous offense that these entities are allowed to move to courts beyond the realm of the people’s legal defense as they are outside our government. That the government allows any entity which can hurt the people and doesn’t share our common interests be allowed to move outside our ability to control, yet have the ability to influence both our elections and government in lobbying, is a government failing to provide security and well being to the people. This is especially true in these times when some corporate entities have economies greater than the people. Immigration is only the surface of the government’s failure to protect American citizens. It is rooted to this failure of the government.

2. Affects our quality of life & way of living. Massive immigration leads to strain on our infrastructure. Eg:

• It affects our ability to provide housing for all who live here.
• It affects our ability to provide basic energy services to all who live here.
• It affects our ability to provide water to all who live here.
• It affects our ability to educate the children who live here.
• It affects the cultural quality of our neighborhoods where many of us have laid roots.
• It affects our ability to feed all who live here.
• It affects our ability to provide health care to all who live here.
• It affects our ability to control pollution and other health risks.
• It affects our ability to sustain our environment and natural resources.

It affects all aspects of lives. It is not a racially driven concern. It is a reasonable concern for all who live here, especially our nation’s permanent citizens. The government’s repeated allowance of massive population increases through changes to our immigration laws have deteriorated all our ability to sustain as a nation in numerous ways felt by all.

Amnesty has only proven to be disastrous to the quality of American lives and our ability to sustain our nation. Worse yet it has only created further incentive for more to enter illegally into our nation repeating the problems encountered by Americans through the presence of illegal immigration.

Earned legalization does not address our issues. It is just rhetoric.

Guest or temporary worker programs also have proved disastrous to the American people. They are used to glut our labor markets. Through the existence of such programs there now occurring discrimination against American workers in both hiring and opportunities at the work place. They exist to lower our wages on which we survive and our means of political influence. Anything that lowers our wages reduces our political influence. The presence of illegal aliens and temporary/guest workers changes our representation in the House of Representatives. The initial creation of this program was for the purposes of allowing a temporary emergency supply of labor needed by the nation until an American could be trained. The corporate entity, which doesn’t share the interests of the American people but rather its own separate future, has lobbied repeatedly to have it changed so that it no longer serves this purpose at all. There are now temporary/guest worker visas for almost every position in America. Does any American believe that there is a national emergency shortage of Americans for clerical positions, administrators, models, and etcetera. The list is surreal. There are numerous exemptions to the list. The limiting caps are repeatedly raised. The program has proven disastrous to American workers:

• In that has lead to repeated layoffs of American workers denying us job security and therefore our ability to survive.
• In that has led to discrimination at hiring & in opportunities at the workplace to Americans.
• In that it has led to the new existence with in our nation of an industry solely for the purpose of outsourcing American jobs to foreigners.
• In that these programs now affect our children’s educational and career futures in that preference is given to foreign students over our own through the educational form of these visas the program provides & that our students see foreign graduates of these programs rapidly hired through the career forms of the temporary/guest worker programs. They experience discrimination before they even start their careers so they avoid those careers to which they so obviously see that they no future or a dismal one.

Guest/ worker visas and their coinciding supportive educational and transfer visas have been shown to be systemically abused and harmful to the American people and our children’s futures. They all need to be repealed. The Democrats version of the program under debate is fatally flawed in our interests in that it doesn’t address the problem of the presence of these people on our representation within our government.

Those industries claiming shortages have only given little to no proof, actually there is proof to the contrary in many instances, that there is a worker shortage. There are a handful of industries which can proclaim worker shortages. But these shortages have actually been contrived. Many have evidenced this through the repeated layoffs as more foreign nationals are hired. Only 9% of the new jobs created have gone to American citizens. Those industries which have shortages of American workers have never treated their workers well nor provided the workers realistic means of survival in America. They have repeatedly pushed the costs of health care, & housing, and of their workers onto the government, as well as forcing those Americans who look to live off those industries on to welfare as those industries repeatedly refuse to provide a living wage. They have turned to exploiting foreign nationals instead for their purposes. As they do so they push the cost of housing, health care, and education for the children of these exploited people onto our government, and therefore all American citizens. It is a condition which has been allowed to happen for too long and one which will not be fixed by any guest/temporary visa.

I am sick to death of being repeatedly dictated to as to what it means to be American and what America needs, for example:
• “America’s business is business.” Really?! Because if this was true we surely wouldn’t have had a civil war. Our courts have repeatedly denied this through out our history.
• “America needs Mexicans to support its economy.” Americans can decide quite well for themselves what they can & cannot live without. In fact most of us manage our own personal budgets better than our government does and even those many businesses.
• “Americans no longer have the right to a job.” Americans have the right to apply for any job within our nation without prejudice or discrimination. It is our means of survival.
• “America is land that welcomes immigrants.” Yes we welcome all legal immigrants to our nation at rates sustainable by our nation. For the last 30 or so years our government has ignored the later part of that sentence. We oppose human rights abuses and so prioritize for those who seek real asylum. We are openly opposed to those who would harm such people by overwhelming court applications under false pretenses. We oppose massive immigration policies which affect our representation, survival, and way of life. We oppose immigration policies that offer favored nation status to any country, neighbor or not. All with good intention are to be allowed to enter our nation at sustainable rates to the nation. We even welcome our government to better facilitate their assimilation. Those of Mexican heritage should not be favored over Irish, Italian, Indian, Afghani, Malaysian, African, and etcetera. That is not the American way.
• “America is rich.” A rich nation is not in debt at world record breaking levels. The economic policies of both major political parties have left the majority of the American behind. Since 1975 the increases in median household income have largely gone to the top 20% of this nation. That we are currently a nation at war is not helping. Nor have free trade agreements. Only a small number of Americans are actually benefiting from these policies. Our Mexican neighbors will just have to excuse us if we feel threatened by further increased burden of massive immigration and population increases. Our government already obligates us 30k of debt to each citizen. So we don’t view ourselves as rich. The majority of us are increasingly impoverished by current and past policies. Poverty has risen. We are better able to serve the world when we can take care of our own.

The tradition of America, what made America great, was our desire to elevate all humanity, through recognition of individual rights. We undertook a moral high road so to speak. The influence of any person in the world is only as high as the treatment of the individual’s nation to its lowest citizens. For most of US history we have endeavored to bring all along & tried to leave none behind. We never fully succeeded but we have better than most. This made us a shining model for other governments in the world to emulate. Our highest point in history is when the world was saddened by death of any American. Our elevated status allowed us to travel the world with influence without resorting to force against those policies we considered inhumane in the world. This sentiment if it still exist at all is rapidly diminishing. That our government now repeatedly enforces policies which harm both our nation and its citizens in so many ways including stature does the entire world a great disservice. All our laws including bankruptcy are repeatedly being altered in favor of corporate interests.

No one should just vote for either major political party believing that their interests will be represented. Pay close attention to all that they say, legislate, vote on, & sources of lobbying.

[xchrom]

8. with grand assertions like these you should provide links.

and for your information -- legal immigrants have this so called effect that your worried about on wages and employment.

you should really do some historical reading re: immigration at the turn of the last century and what jobs they filled -- this country has historically ALWAYS brought in workers to exactly the kind of work you are bitching about.

including raping africa to do the job.

illegal immigrants pay into a system through sales taxes and others that they will never be able to collect on -- but you certainly will.

the notion that illegals don't contribute mightily is just bunk.

the rate that immigrants are coming in now reflect the kinds of numbers that happened at the turn of the last century.

our relationship with mexico is familial -- so i would fight tooth and nail to keep those borders relatively open.
you are not unopposed in your sentiments.

please see my #4 if you want some real numbers.
complete with an accurate mathematical calculation on the impact of illegal and legals.

and btw -- high wage immigrants have an impact on american wage stagflation as well.

[outraged19]

10. immigration

I thought it was turning into a long enough post without adding the numerous nonpartisan sites I have researched. Hell, some are not even American but rather global.

It is the amnesty programs since 1986 that have caused the caused rapid massive population increases since to our nation.

Legal immigration at levels and rates sustainable to our nation have never been a problem and thus welcomed here.

I don't deny my nations slave history. We changed that though didn't we? I never said we were perfect. I said we strive to include all and the policies of our nation for past 30 years have not only abandoned the peoples interests, except for a small elite of this nation. We continually strive to correct those policies which leave others behind. American agriculture for too long has been allowed to exploit foreigners in our land. Legalizing their ability to use people does not serve the American people nor any worker in the world.

Our method of counting those who enter this nation illegally is based on the number of people who are actually caught. This number is inaccurate. We know the large majority are never caught. Thus while the number is inaccurate, we surely know that it is not less. In fact it is probably hugely understated.

Oh & as far contributing, yes illegal aliens do pay taxes but nearly as much as the average American does, each illegal alien cost every American well over a 1000 dollars through governmental support programs and use of our infrastructure,healthcare system, educational system, and etcetera. They are not charged all the taxes that Americans are. That they work here and pay into our social security system which they can't retrieve is against the advice of Americans.

How is Mexico familial to any other nationality that has come here? That's an outright lie.

That high wage immigrants impact our wages also doesn't justify earned legalization nor amnesty. That is a separate issue of the guest/temporary worker visa programs which is why the entire existence of such programs should be eliminated.

Giving Mexico a favored nation status in our legal immigration system is an insult to the rest of world and bad foreign policy. This is not what Americans strive for. The majority of us oppose discrimination based on nationality.

[area51]

11. Great post.

:applause:

And welcome to DU, outraged19.

[mondo joe]

13. Thank you Double T.

[pitohui]

12. because your feelings are more important than my job at fair wage

thanks for nothing

how can there even be a fence? did you know that the democratic party was once the party of labor?

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. I'll have to defer to Skinner's excellent post regarding the fence.

Yes, I'm versed in the history of all of the U.S.'s political parties. Thanks. Glad to see my attempt at light-heartedness fell flat with some folks. I am sincerely sorry I struck a nerve though.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. What are you? Some kind of (gasp!) Humanitarian??

For shame! Caring for poor people, especially ones that aren't white, is very suspect. Why, what would happen if poor, desparate people seeking a better life moved in next door to you and wanted to marry your sister??

[Pacifist Patriot]

15. Gotta be better than the brother-in-law I've got.

;)

[outraged19]

17. Humanitarian

Ha. Ha. Very funny. Actually my neighbors are immigrants who have gone through the long process of becoming full bodied American citizens. They are not even dual citizenships. They have embraced America fully & I welcome them.

How I would feel about their marrying into the family would depend upon a longer relationship to further get the measure of the relationship of those marrying (are they good for each other & is it an honest & healthy relationship) and what possible cultural incompatibilities that may affect the nature of the family's relationship.Some members of the family would feel their relationships with the married if they choose to abandon the religion on which they were raised but instead embrace a religion they don't understand. They would feel left out of large aspect of the married's life. Other family members would be more flexible. What religion will the children be raised if neither converts? What kind of traditions will be passed on? It's complicated, but not insurmountable.