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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 11:30 AM
Original message
the ‘Ingratitude of the Iraqis’ so sayith Pipes the traitor


http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/04/pipes-iraq/



Leading Neocon: ‘Biggest Lesson’ of War is the ‘Ingratitude of the Iraqis’


Neoconservative commentator Daniel Pipes was among the most fervent cheerleaders for the Iraq war. In essays and speeches, Pipes consistently predicted the “war in Iraq will lead to a reduction in terrorism” and the spread of regional democracy. (For this, Bush rewarded Pipes with a controversial recess appointment to the U.S. Institute for Peace.)

Now — three years, $300 billion, 2,300+ U.S. lives, and one anarchic civil war later — Pipes has learned an important lesson.

Q: What is the biggest lesson you have learned from the Iraq war?

A: The ingratitude of the Iraqis for the extraordinary favor we gave them — to release them from the bondage of Saddam Hussein’s tyranny. They have rapidly interpreted it as something they did and that we were incidental to it. They’ve more or less written us out of the picture.

To be fair, in Pipes’ world view, this does make some sense. Iraqis should be gracious for what’s happened in their country, since it’s been such a “success.”

Q: How will we know when the occupation or the invasion of Iraq was a success or a failure?

A: Oh, it was a success. We got rid of Saddam Hussein. Beyond that is icing.

----------------------------


Icing!!


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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hey, not all us Iraqis are ingrates
You guys tortured and killed all my in-laws. I'm REALLY grateful. Now, could you get the guy next door who keeps blasting Britney Spears CDs? Oh, and some clean water, if you get a chance?

Signed

A. Iraqi
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Pipes is a monster
He sickens me beyond belief....

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1316

<snip>

When it comes to international relations, Pipes was not the most appropriate or legitimate person to consider for a post like that at the USIP, which is devoted to “promoting the peaceful resolution of international conflicts.” His comments about why the United States invaded Iraq are a case in point: "WMD was never the basic reason for war. Nor was it the horrid repression in Iraq. Or the danger Saddam posed to his neighbors. ... The campaign in Iraq is about keeping promises to the United States or paying the consequences…. Keep your promises or you are gone. It's a powerful precedent that U.S. leaders should make the most of." (8)

However, in his second term, President Bush has apparently decided to not renew Pipes’ appointment to the USIP. But Pipes has moved on to other things, such as the creation of two organizations with an anti-Islamist bent: the Anti-Islamist Institute (AII) and the Centre for Islamic Pluralism (CIP).

The Anti-Islamist Institute will target the legal activities of Islamic families, which, in Pipes’ view, “pose as much or even a greater set of challenges than the illegal ones.” The CIP was created to promote the spread of moderate Islam and “to oppose the influence of militant Islam,” particularly the Wahhabi sect, from all aspects of American public life. The CIP proposes to get rid of the monopoly that the “Wahhabi lobby” has on Washington, which it says includes the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America, the North American Islamic Trust, the Muslim Students' Association of the U.S. and Canada, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, which some scholars view as independent and not Wahhabist organizations.

<snip> and this gem.....

This anti-Islamist bent is not a new endeavor for Pipes. He founded and still directs the Middle East Forum, "a think tank" aimed at defining and promoting American interests in the Middle East …. The Forum holds that the United States has vital interests in the region; in particular, it believes in strong ties with Israel, Turkey, and other democracies as they emerge; works for human rights throughout the region; seeks a stable supply and a low price of oil; and promotes the peaceful settlement of regional and international disputes." But regardless of this anti-militant Islam bent, Pipes himself has written that Muslim immigrants are “brown- skinned peoples cooking strange foods and not exactly maintaining Germanic standards of hygiene”.

:puke:
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RufusEarl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. This asshole just don;t get it!
It's one thing to start a war, thats bad enough! But then after starting a war that the Iraqi people did not ask for, they went about in the most incompetent way and this guy thinks it's their fault.

Sorry this guy needs to be flipping burgers, not in charge of the institute for peace.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. Isn't this really just redefining victory in the only way
Edited on Wed Apr-05-06 11:58 AM by Inland
That allows one to say there's a "success" no matter how bad it gets? Look back, and the ONLY thing we can say won't be reversed is Saddam's removal, because HIM we can shoot any day we want, now. Everything else is possibly reversible or will never come, right down to the last painted elementary school. So by coinkydink, victory equal removing saddam.

Of course, it requires draining the concept of success of strategic or moral meaning, and allows one to say, "If that's success, then what would a failure look like, and maybe we shouldn't have bothered." And every single American would have said that, if neocon trash had told us what success would look like BEFORE we invaded, right?



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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Of course it is.....
If there's something losers simply CANNOT stand, it's BEING LOSERS. In a pinch, they'll simply redefine the entire world, if necessary, so that they become winners.

It's a deep psychological need, I think, for people not to be losers. It's tied up with the inability of republican-minded people to admit they're ever wrong.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Indeed, the "we won't lose" becomes "Don't admit losing"
to "it all depends on what 'losing' is."

Listening to Laura Ingraham this AM, it became clear that our entire Iraq strategy is based on the hate of the idea that some Iranian would be able to say, "told you so." She couldn't pick out a reason to stay in Iraq except to keep "them" from saying that Bush quit, even as she implicitly agreed that the next president would withdraw troops.

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. Pipes is a bigot whose opinion is unworthy of serious consideration
Ingratitude of the Iraqis, indeed. We should have expected that kind of nonsense from Dr. Pipes.

Pipes' world view is that all Muslims are Islamic fundamentalists and all Islamic funadmentalists are terrorists; that any academic who challenges the Bush junta's phoney war on terror is a subversive. No none who embraces Bush, with his unitary executive theory and war on civil liberties, let alone who organize something as nefarious as Campus Watch, has any right to lecture anybody else on democracy; such a person hasn't the foggiest idea what democracy is. He envisions a Middle East not in control of tyrants; so do I. Howver, I also envision a US not in control of neoconservative tyrants.

If democracy was what we were speading, why didn't the neocons sound out the views of longshoremen in Basra or cab drivers in Baghdad? Why were the neocons more interested in the views of a conivcted embezzler who hadn't lived in Iraq since he was in his early teens?

His thesis that Saddam was the whole problem in Iraq (or the Middle East, for that matter) is self-contradictory. Obviously, he also sees the problem as being those ingracious Muslim barbarians. Of course, the rampant corruption of the US reconstruction effort has nothing to do with it.

The Iraqi people are all too aware that the US invasion had little to do with Saddam and less to do with democracy. The Iraqi people are aware that US troops, on entering Baghdad, secured the oil ministry and allowed hospitals, who mission was to care for the wounded in a combat zone, to be looted. Not to mention that they are aware that reasons Bush and his aides gave for going to war were all false; Pipes doesn't even bring those reasons up in this interview.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Critique of Daniel Pipes
Edited on Wed Apr-05-06 12:48 PM by Jack Rabbit
The article, The Muslims Are Coming! The Muslims Are Coming!, written in 1980, is an exhibit to be used by those who would demonstrate that Dr. Pipes is a bigot.

Speculations about a Muslim threat divide into two distinct types. Some observers point to hostile states and the military forces bent on jihad (Islamic righteous war). Others focus on migrants to the West and fear a subversion of Western civilization from within. For the latter, the mischief of a Saddam Husayn or Mu'ammar al-Qadhdhafi poses fewer dangers than that of their followers living in our midst.

Here we see Pipes' argument in its embryonic form. Jihad is one threat to the West. I don't have a problem with that statement, as long as Pipes carefully defines jihad and exactly who are its adherents. Pipes is not being so careful. His next statement is to call Arab immigrants to the West a threat, fearing that they will "(subvert) Western civilization from within". That is the sort of statement we would get from the likes of Pat Buchanan or David Duke.

Even Dr. Pipes' proposed answer to jihad is troubling. Overall, he sees Islam as an enemy of Western Civilization. It is interesting in reading the article how Pipes at first refers to "radical Islam", as though to distinguish it from mainstream Islam, and then simply to "Islam", as though the faith, unlike Judaism and Christianity, were monolithic. For example:

(T)he fear of Islam has some basis in reality. From the Battle of Ajnadayn in 634 until the Suez crisis of 1956, military hostility has always defined the crux of the Christian-Muslim relationship. Muslims served as the enemy par excellence from the Chanson de Roland to the Rolando trilogy, from El Cid to Don Quixote. In real life, Arabs or Turks represent the national villains throughout southern Europe. Europeans repeatedly won their statehood by expelling Muslim overlords, from the Spanish Reconquista beginning in the early eleventh century to the Albanian war of independence ending in 1912.

Note that to demonstrate this "reality", Pipes has citied a battle fought nearly a millennium and a half ago, the seizure of a colonial relic by a secular Arab nationalist leader, works of fiction and historical facts centuries old and long forgotten.

Dr. Pipes' remarks about Arab/Muslim immigration is more troubling:

All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most. Also, they appear most resistant to assimilation. Elements among the Pakistanis in Britain, Algerians in France, and Turks in Germany seek to turn the host country into a Islamic society by compelling it to adapt to their way of life.

Pipes then makes a series of unsubstantiated claims, such as an insistence that factories keep to the Islamic calendar. He also claims:

A significant body of Muslims, especially followers of Ayatollah Khomeini, appear to hope they can remake Europe and America in their own image. And they are not shy to say so.

For this, Pipes presents some anecdotal evidence. However, he never justifies his characterization of this body of Muslims as "significant".

It is clear that Dr. Pipes sees Islam as not just one of the great faiths of mankind, but as a menacing ideology. He worries about the high birth rate among Muslims:

High Muslim birth rates already drive politics in the two non-Muslim states of the Middle East. Christians lost control of Lebanon after Muslims became a majority there. The challenge of maintaining a Jewish majority lies near the heart of the Israeli political debate; the local Muslim population keeps up a fertility rate of no less than 6.6 children per woman (1981 estimate). Comparable political tensions have arisen on the fringes of the Middle East-in Ethiopia, Cyprus, Armenia, and Serbia-as the minority Muslim population climbs toward either political power or majority status.

Thus, it isn't just Islam that is a menacing ideology, but Muslims who in themselves are a threat to Western Civilization. Pipes concludes:

Fears of a Muslim influx have more substance than the worry about jihad. West European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and not exactly maintaining Germanic standards of hygiene. Muslim immigrants bring with them a chauvinism that augurs badly for their integration into the mainstream of the European societies. The signs all point to continued clashes between the two sides; in all likelihood, the Rushdie affair was merely a prelude to further troubles; already it has spawned a Muslim political party in Great Britain. Put differently, Iranian zealots threaten more within the gates of Vienna than outside them.

In other words, Pipes fears that Western Civilization is threatened by allowing the barbarians to enter. The question, he says, is whether or not Muslims can "modernize."

Future relations of Muslims and Westerners depend less on crude numbers or place of residence, and much more on beliefs, skills, and institutions. The critical question is whether Muslims will modernize or not. And the answer lies not in the Qur'an or in the Islamic religion, but in the attitudes and actions of nearly a billion individuals.

Dr. Pipes seems to be suggesting that the problem with Muslims is that they read the Koran, if they can read at all.

It is, of course, fallacious to assume that one cannot be both modern and adhere to a religious faith, including Islam. The latter belongs to the private realm, just as the food one eats (although Pipes seems to have problems with Arab cuisine as well).

Pipes is a bigot. That should be as obvious as the sun against a clear blue sky.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-05-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Excellent commentary
Yes, Mr. Pipes is a bigot. His thinking is not rational, but rather rationalization of fear which in turn creates a world view is based on stereotypes.

L-
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-06-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. No . . .
Dr. Pipes is a bigot.

He's David Duke with a Ph.D.
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