I am so disgusted and uplifted at the same time I could cry.

[Pacifist Patriot]

I'm not sure where to put this so moderators, please feel free to move it to wherever it belongs.

I am a minister at a very small and financially-challenged UU church. We couldn't afford to finish upgrading our a/c system last year and I'm donating my ministerial services until the church can grow. Unfortunately, we have almost no community outreach program yet. We are located down the street from a mega church. An outrageously huge and extremely wealthy Calvary Chapel.

I received a phone call today from a single mom looking for help. She contacted Calvary Chapel first but they told her - are you ready for it? - they do not provide assistance to non-members. They can hire an off-duty cop to direct traffic in and out of their parking lot on Sunday mornings but they can't help a woman pay for one night in a hotel.

All the woman needed was an advance of a rather modest sum of money to stay in her hotel tonight instead of going to a shelter. The last time she went to a shelter one of her daughters was sexually assaulted.

It took a grand total of three phone calls and maybe ten minutes and I had secured:

1) The money for her room tonight to be paid directly to the motel.
2) An organization prepared to help her with any food needs her family might have.
3) The name and phone number of an organization that may be able to help her secure no-cost temporary accommodations.
4) A cash donation for whatever the woman may need for the next few days.

The assistance came from the likes of an elderly gentleman on a fixed income pledging $5 I know he needs for himself, a girl scout troop comprised of single-income homeschoolers who struggle to keep up with their troop obligations and so on... When my 9 year old son overheard my phone calls he went to his allowance jar and pulled out some money for the family peppering me with questions about the ages of the children and what else they might need.

I am so proud of our church. Everyone contacted has said, "let's move on getting her the immediate help and then we can figure out what the situation is" Not a single person insisted on vetting the situation to find out if it's legitimate.

I hate to sound bitter, but it would not surprise me in the least if Calvary Chapel got faith-based initiative funds. And by the way, this is the second time this year they've referred someone to my church because the person in need was not one of their members.

Matthew 25:35-40 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Liberals Rock! Thank you for caring. I don't think I tell you all that enough.

[lukasahero]

1. Thank YOU for sharing

These are the stories we need people to hear from our churches. Thank you for caring and for not sending her away.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[warrens]

3. There are Christians and then there are...

Well, for want of a better word, Tom DeLay Christians.

[Pacifist Patriot]

5. Fristians?

[rudy23]

32. Brilliant (n/t)

n/t

[BR_Parkway]

86. KKKristians

[Lisa]

4. you know, after reading your account ...

... it makes total sense to me, that Robin Hood used to rob rich church officials and not just the Sheriff!

It's really a catch-22 situation, isn't it. If you don't help people, you disobey Christian teachings. If you do, the neo-cons and right-wing churches claim, "see, they aren't badly off after all, because people are helping them!"

[bunkerbuster1]

6. Neocon mantra: "Screw the least of these brothers of mine!"

Bless you and your church, PP. You, as always, rock(eth).

[Pacifist Patriot]

8. Unfortunately, telling the story makes me feel like I'm...

tooting my own horn like the Pharisee praying loudly at the temple when that's not what I want to do. It's just yet another reminder of how wonderful liberals and Democrats can be. It gives me the warm fuzzies in a time of such hatred and pain.

[Jane Austin]

14. I don't think anybody is going to mistake you for a Pharisee!

Besides there's way too much competition for that moniker these days, coming from Fundies of all Religions.

Bless you and your flock for helping this woman.

[Lisa]

18. I don't think you're "tooting your own horn" -- consider it a parable

Well done, PP.

(It's not as if you're extolling your own virtues while not doing anything ... which I think is the tendency of most Pharisees, "compassionate" Mr. Bush being a prime example.)

[Lars39]

29. I wonder how many members of that mega church realize that

they don't help the truly needy(other than someone their missionaries come in contact with in other countries perhaps)?

The details of how some of the mega churches are operating needs to get out.

[Melsky]

95. I'd imagine it's the same with missionaries.

"convert to our religion and we'll feed you" sort of deal

[ninkasi]

35. Oh please don't feel that way

You didn't come across as tooting your own horn, you came across as a person frustrated because you see so much need in the world, and so little help for the needy. You were praising the ones who offered the help, like the elderly one who is donating something he needs himself. May God bless all of you. We need to hear more stories like these, to give us the strength to get through the incredible intolerance of right-wing rule.

[vickitulsa]

81. No, no, PP! We quickly get the sense of your purpose in telling

this story, and I appreciate your getting up the gumption to share it with us. I know exactly what you mean, though ... sometimes I think many of us might be a bit too silent and secretive as we obey an important teaching not to "let the right hand know what the left is doing."

Lord knows, Tulsa is saturated with mega-churches, and I truly know what chafes you about them! Other than the obvious, I mean. ;) When I first moved to Tulsa in '73 and pedalled my bicycle southward on Lewis Avenue into what was then two-lane scenic country with almost NO traffic, I'd pass the gawdy, gold-domed, shiny and weird-shaped buildings of the ORU complex and call it "Oral in Wonderland." People who haven't seen it cannot imagine what it really looks like ... and those HANDS!! The "praying hands" sculpture 40 or 50 feet tall that looks so strange the way the artist did them. To me they look like they're CLAPPING, not praying!

I figure it's just Oral's way of saying "Yes! I'm doing great, ain't I?!"

And the saddest part is that so many others have followed his lucrative example. :mad: :puke:

What I am wondering now that you mention the mega-church near you that will help "only their own members" is: DO THEY EVEN DO THAT? I mean, they can say they don't help folks who aren't members, and without actually, technically LYING they might not even help those on their own rolls who need it, right? !!

Wonder what they'd do if someone like the young mother you sought help for asked to join their church, then right away turned to them for help with food and shelter .......... would they baldly accuse her of merely "using" them? Would they tell her she has to be a member for, say, "at least six months" or maybe a year before they can help her? To prove she's sincere, of course (just like them, ya) ... it's just sensible, after all, they have to be "good stewards" of the truckloads of money dumped in their laps.

Blechhh!! I will admit that I got caught up in that whole "charismatic" trip for awhile a couple of decades ago when it was just catching fire in this country. And because the couple of friends who led me there during the worst time in my life were truly good people who DID help me, I stuck it out with the churches for some time, trying to overlook the blatant hypocrisy of most members, the lack of sincerity behind a lot of smiles and words, the infighting and power-grabbing attempts in the leadership heirarchy and music departments. (Picture the cutthroat music industry scene coupled with lots of pauses/interruptions for hand-holding prayer circles.) There was even competition in the "tongues and interpretations" moments!

Inevitably I walked out of that insanity, disgusted and even angry ... yes, deeply angry, though I've let most of that go because it's not good for me. I know how they think, how they work, how they "do their shtick" to lure in the unwitting and the emotionally needy -- and especially the wealthy!

Right after I left, I looked back and wondered WHY, why had it taken me so long? The assistant pastor at the very first church I joined was the designated "counselor" I was referred to when I had a serious problem; but when I turned to him for help, he came to my home, alone, and tried to get me to give him a BACK RUB!! Why did I even waste my time after that??

What's that excellent quote I saw on a fellow DUer's sigline?

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal

Yup, he nailed it.

Thanks for sharing this story with us, Pacifist Patriot, and bless you and your caring friends for your response to a young mother in need. You've given us some ideas for how we might lend a hand, too! :think:

[raccoon]

103. These days, we need all the warm fuzzies we can get.

Thanks for sharing this. Your church sounds wonderful.

[seabeyond]

7. goosebumps, tears. please tell these people thank you for their love

it warms my heart. extends further their small contributions to all that get to share in this story

[meegbear]

9. God Bless You and Your Brethren!!

:applause:

[dogday]

10. I was always told he doesn't give you

want you want, he gives you what you need and I have found that to be the case in my life...

[Jigarotta]

11. Thank you so much for being you, Pacifist Patriot. nt

[renate]

12. you are so blessed

What a wonderful community you and your fellow church members have created.

I know whose church God/the Universe is proud of right now.

[slide to the left]

13. Churches like that

Are the reason I stopped going. There isn't a UU around me or I would go to that one. Bless you. Thank you for following scripture rather than politics. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. It is people like you and your church that He was talking about.

[Tyler Durden]

15. I Corinthians, 13:1, 8, 13

Though I speak with the tonques of men and of angels, and have not CHARITY, I am become sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

CHARITY never faileth: but whether prophecies, they shall fail; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall vanish away.

And now abideth faith, hope, CHARITY, these three; but the greatest of these CHARITY.



The very universe itself smiles on your efforts.

[madinmaryland]

16. We need more people like you in this world.

Thank you!!!

[ellenfl]

17. mega churches are 'big business', that's all.

they not exist to help the poor but to help themselves. how many mega church ministers and top management are just making ends meet? not too many, i'd wager.

thank you, pp, and thank your church members and all those others who truly care.

ellen fl

[Frustratedlady]

40. I agree. A little story about one in our area...

We have a radical church in our area which demands their members tithe and contribute their talents to the church so they don't have to hire outside contractors to build the many additions they keep erecting. As long as the members are OK with that, so be it. However, they have many practices that leave me cold. For instance. There was a little lady who was in her 80s, widowed and who was in the process of coming out of a deep depression. Her story follows....

Part of her self-imposed therapy was to bake goodies or make candies for others, including employees at the local banks, doctors' offices and post office. Every morning or so, she would make her rounds, dropping off her treats and picking up the empty containers from the previous trip. She got to visit for a minute with everyone, enjoyed the compliments and found that by keeping her hands and mind busy, she was quickly coming out of the depression.

Well, we can't have that, now can we? The church people heard others talking about how nice that was for "Mrs. Generous" to surprise so many people with her wonderful pastries and how much fun she was having. She was like a new person. The minister and his devoted followers put together a small committee of ladies to pay a visit to Mrs. Generous and give her a proper dressing down. They admonished her for providing the goodies to people who were not members of the church. "We have plenty of "our own" who could use your good cooking and you have no business giving these rolls, cookies and candies to virtual strangers. You must stop."

This poor woman immediately regressed back into her depression and stopped making or baking any more treats for anyone. She didn't last very long after that.

Bless you, your son and others for helping this woman and her family. Shame on the church members down the block.

[CrispyQ]

47. The "we take care of our own" mentality

is so similar to "you're with us or against us." It is so contrary to my worldview of "we're all in this together."

[tandot]

19. If they get federal funds - our tax money - they should NOT restrict

their assistance to members only. There has to be a law about that. Can someone investigate that?

Thank YOU for caring about others. :yourock:

[Pacifist Patriot]

27. I don't really know if they take federal funds or not. Probably not...

as someone pointed out below. It was just a pissy statement on my part.

[quaoar]

20. I ran a Habitat for Humanity affiliate for 10 years

I once called the largest church in the county and asked them not for money but if they would put a blurb in their Sunday bulletin about Habitat and how church members could volunteer. They said no. I was flabbergasted and asked why. I was told it was because the church had its own programs that need volunteers and Habitat might siphon them off.

And then there was the church that invited me to speak to their men's group and how they could help people in a nearby poor neighborhood. This church had done a survey of the neighborhood to assess its needs and discovered that housing was the biggest need mentioned. So they called me. I told them that we just happened to be building a house in that neighborhood and needed volunteers. After I spoke a member of the group got up to update everyone on their upcoming mission trip to West Virginia. Never heard from them again.

And -- one of my staff members who did our newsletter used to call various churches and ask them if they would Xerox our newsletter for us. She called a very large Baptist church -- that recently built a huge new building -- and was turned down. Not in the budget, they said.

Oh, and the megachurch that installed an escaltor in their new building but couldn't send any money Habitat's way.

OTOH, some of Habitat's most loyal volunteers and donors came from churches that were so small they didn't even have their own building yet, churches that took in Katrina victims, churches that scrounged up appliances and furniture and school supplies for Habitat families.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

21. That's how it's supposed to work

A church is supposed to be a community of people who care about others and spread goodness and mercy. All other people, not just those who fit their narrow requirements of goodness or worth.

You are a kind soul, and if there is a here after I hope I end up where those like you and your congregation abound.

[The Revolution]

22. That's awesome

It really is too bad that Christianity has been hijacked by the far right, who use it as a tool to spread their hate and lies. Because at its core, the religion really has a good message, and there are lots of Christians that do a lot of good.

[meganmonkey]

23. They can't receive any federal or state funds if they require

people to be members or attend religious services to get assistance. Nor will most food bank programs give them food to distribute. If there is any indication they get such funds you should report them immediately.

Most mega-churches use their own funds (raised from their congregation) for social programs so that they do not have to abide by feneral guidelines.

[Blue_Tires]

24. ttt n/t

[annabanana]

25. nothing replaces walking the walk

The loudest Christians are seldom the best.

[baby_mouse]

26. Thank you for reminding me that humanity is also kind.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

this is a very important post!

XXXXXXXXXXxx


:-)

:loveya:

[Coexist]

28. knr

[Maddy McCall]

30. I wish that we had a UU church here.

Then I might actually attend somewhere.

Most big mainstream churches are nothing more than country clubs. Most of the people attend them for the entertainment the church provides, not to worship.

The UU church is the most "real" church I've read about. The closest one to us is in New Orleans, so that's just too far to travel.

:(

[holboz]

113. Mega church preacher here is building ANOTHER church...

and plans to use a helicopter to get from his "home" mega church to his satellite mega church about 15 miles away. THAT makes me sick. I think about how much good they could do for the needy instead of hiring a pilot, a helicopter, building 2 mega churches and children worship centers "designed by the people who build sets for Nickelodeon Studios!" Their TV advert shows something you'd see at Universal Studios, complete with puppets and the like.

It's enough to make me wretch.

So Pacifist Patriot, God bless your modest church and the charity bestowed by your family and church members. Yours is truly reflective of what Christianity is supposed to be.

[intheflow]

114. There are UU churches near you

One in Hattiesburg, one in Gulfport, one in Ellisville. I'm pretty sure Ellisville has a p/t minister. Gulfport will be getting a p/t minister (I think) in the next year. And you're welcome to come to Gulfport on Easter when this UU minister will be doing the service! :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

116. Nope--all at least an hour and a half from me.

:(

[intheflow]

117. Oh. That sucks.

I went about 5 years wtih no UU church in easy commute. So I feel your pain, Maddy.

You're still welcome for Easter. If you can play the piano, I'd pay you $50 so we could have some live music for the service. I'm serious!

[bobbieinok]

31. incident I heard of some years ago

young male student at a conservative Christian college was telling about a woman student there........she was going to have an 'out-of-wedlock' baby and asked her church in the town of the school for help......they said they would help her, but only if she put the child up for adoption; if she decided to keep the child, they would not help her.....the young man was very upset about this; he felt they were very unChristian

.......my comment was 'you'd think they'd really want to help her; AFTER ALL, SHE WAS NOT GOING TO GET AN ABORTION'

[northofdenali]

33. YOUR church is following Jesus.

The other one? They're deluding themselves.

I wonder what's going to happen if their Jesus returns, and it happens he's not a "member" of their "church"? Their kind are the type to crucify first and ask questions later.

:hug:Pacifist Patriot, and :hug: to your son for being a caring kid.

[w8liftinglady]

34. it's great when Christians act like Christ.

your neighborhood is lucky to have such an assembly of giving,loving people.We are our brother's keeper,when he is in need.

[Raksha]

36. Pacificist Patriot, I know you didn't ask for this

and it wasn't your motivation for posting this note, but if that elderly parishioner could give $5 to help a family in need, I can give $5 too. I'm sure many other DUers feel the same way, if it's okay with the mods and if you have a PayPal account. We could give them something beyond short-term help, and then if there's anything left over you could fix your air conditioning! What I'm saying is that I'd like to make a small donation to your church.

[Pacifist Patriot]

51. I appreciate that, it's very sweet but not necessary.

Find a community outreach program in your area and donate locally. Pay it forward. ;)

[Raksha]

71. Good plan! n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

37. Thank you for sharing that wonderful story of what your church did.

If I were a member of that other church and found out what happened, I would switch.

[Tsiyu]

38. Around 20 years ago, I did a survey of local churches

in advance of trying to form an Inter-faith community to address poverty.

I was amazed that, in that North Georgia part of the Bobble Belt, giving to the poor was not considered one of the missions of many of the churches I contacted.

Some gave the "most of these people try to cheat" crap, others gave the "We are seperate from the World" ( I assume their twenty or so members are the only ones who will be raptured), and some just kind of laughed or never returned my calls.

One Episcopal Church I attended in another community did much more; we washed sheets for the homeless who were allowed to spend the winter in various churches and provided meals and other assistance.

I feel that this should be the main focus of any Christian church "Feed the poor." It dismayed me as well to hear so much disdain for those who might practice that part of their faith.

[pberq]

39. K&R - Thank you for giving us this great story

[Klukie]

41. Thank you for this post!

I am very skeptical of churches in general for this exact reason. I have attended various denominations over the years and I am so turned off by the fact that so many churches barely address the burdens of their own congregations let alone any outsiders. I just recently moved to another town and I am looking for a church to attend, but I refuse to belong to anything that doesn't practice what it preaches. I would like to raise my children in an environment that truly focuses on good works. Any Suggestions?

[Pacifist Patriot]

53. I have found that UCC and UU churches tend to focus on..

good works. I hate to say it, but basically any liberal branch of a denomination is more likely to have social action activity going on. Probably the best thing to do is call around and see which churches in your area have community outreach programs or participate in inter-church activities engaged in social mission.

[Klukie]

59. What does UU and UCC stand for?

Thanks for the advice.

[Pacifist Patriot]

61. Unitarian Universalist and United Church of Christ

UU is no longer a Christian denomination but comes out of heretical Christian roots (basically in opposition to the oppressive sin-soaked Calvinist doctrines). UCC is a liberal Christian denomination.

Unitarian Universalist Association
http://www.uua.org

United Church of Christ
http://www.ucc.org/

[Gregorian]

42. But who is thy neighbor?

This is from Luke. The Good Samaritan.

...A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way; and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was; and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 and went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him: and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbor unto him that fell among the thieves?
37...



My father pointed this out to me when I asked him one time what is meant by "neighbor".

My understanding, although limited, is that the UU church is an amazing group. Probably the one church Jesus would appreciate. I have a story that gives me guilt to tell, but I think it's fitting. When I sold my last property, my realtor was a strong member of her UU church in Eureka, California. I later discovered that she donated all of the money she made from the sale of my property, to her church. Mind, she is poor, and runs a women's shelter.

I'm so happy to be an acquaintance, Pacifist Patriot. If only I could be so useful and brave. Thank you.

[Critters2]

43. I know the feeling

I serve a small UCC church. We're starting to grow, and have enough endowment from the days when it was the rich businesspeople's church, so I don't need to work gratis as you're doing (be proud of that, btw!). But my members worry about the day when the endowments are gone, and well, they like to worry.
There's one church here that's nearly a mega church--a Nazarene church, and several other well-off fundie churches.

There's a homeless shelter in town, that has asked churches to volunteer for one night a month, three shifts each. If every church in town took one night a month, they'd never have to ask another volunteer for help. Yet, only 6 churches take a night each...mine, the Presbyterian, two ELCA's, the Mormons, and the SDAs. The large Nazarene church, the Baptists, the Evangelical Free, none of those can find it in their hearts to spend one night a month helping the truly poor. But the people they bad-mouth, the lefty UCCs (they call us "the gay church" around town), the liberal Lutherans and Presbys, and the *gasp* Mormons are all willing to help the poor.

We also support the shelter financially, and give monthly to help an African American church with its mortgage payments, at their request.

When did we see Jesus hungry, or thirsty, or poor, or in prison...?

You're a good soul! With a good church!!

[AnneD]

44. I belong to a small church like that....

at 51 I am a bit younger than most. There are those that talk the talk, then there are those that walk the walk. God can tell the difference.
Many of these Christian Conservatives have to ask WWJD because they honestly don't know. Liberals, we don't even have to think twice...the answers are written in our hearts.

Love and Blessings to your congregation for their act of charity.

[slybacon9]

45. One of my favorite pastimes is to "remind" Calvary Chapel goers that their

church was started by an acid taking gay hippie who, after he died of aids in 1993, was disavowed and had his legacy erased by his own church... being the good christians that they are.

it's fun. it's the looks on their horrified white trash faces that make it all worthwhile. i like to top it off by telling them i'm gay and asking if they need a babysitter.

they usually scurry as quickly as they can into the Walmart next door.

[Pacifist Patriot]

52. Really? I don't know much about it...

other than the fact I have facility-envy. Their playground alone is bigger than our church building.

[Ignis]

46. Blessed Be, PP! You are a hero, whether you like it or not. (nt)

:)

[wryter2000]

48. They'd better hope the Second Coming isn't going to happen too soon

They need time to clean up their act.

:yourock: <--You and your church.

[Faygo Kid]

49. Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall possess the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice,
for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I bet "Calvary Chapel" does not teach this. You obviously do.

[entanglement]

50. Thank you, Pacifist Patriot

:yourock:

And shame on the Pharisees. When I see them, I know that if Jesus were to come back tomorrow, these supposed "Christians" would be the first to clamor for his Crucifixion.

[porphyrian]

54. I thought that was how Christians are supposed to act.

It's a shame many only read the parts of their book about punishment and behavior control.

Good for you for making religion what it's supposed to be.

[guinivere]

55. Oh my. You have brought tears to my eyes.

:hug:
What a wonderful bunch of folks from your church.

You know what, Pacifist, God will sort those others out in the end.

[VOX]

56. Thank you, Pacifist Patriot, for walking the walk. n/t

[tibbir]

57. I grew up in a Presbyterian church

but I'm so proud I'm a UU now (for this and a lot of other reasons).

[sinkingfeeling]

58. Bless you for you know the meaning of Christ.

P.S. From one who believes Jesus lived, taught, and died, but not a believer in God.

[Pacifist Patriot]

60. UPDATE: I drove down to the motel this afternoon.

I approached the front desk clerk (kindly old man type), introduced myself and told him I'd been informed one of his guests needed assistance paying for tonight's stay. He nodded and said, "I think I know who you mean." I asked if it was a Ms. H___ and he nodded and pointed out a little girl in the lobby. "That's one of her kids right there. Great kid, really smart!" You could tell the guy had a soft spot for the family.

I asked him if I could pay for the room. He raised an eyebrow, grinned and said, "you sure can" then processed the payment. I gave him an envelope for her with my card, $20 and a note with the name of a local food pantry expecting her call and an organization that might be able to place her family in free accommodations temporarily.

I spoke to the daughter briefly, a really sweet shy child. She ran the envelope up to her mom who called me on my cell phone a few moments later. She was so grateful and sounded particularly relieved to have gotten the referral numbers.

Sadly, that's pretty much all we can do. I sure hope these other organizations can pitch in. I cannot imagine being a single mom of four in a hotel room.

I'm tempted to write to Calvary Chapel's head pastor providing him with a list of local community outreach programs with which to educate the office staff and thanking him for the opportunity to serve Christ.

[1620rock]

62. ...bless you for walking the walk.

[knitter4democracy]

64. He'll just make you mad.

Those kind of pastors always make me mad whenever I deal with them. They made me mad when I was in college with them when they were just religion majors with stars in their eyes, and they tick me off worse when they run their megachurches.

I'm glad you were able to help. For all you know, you were helping an angel and didn't even know it, as it says in the New Testament.

Can you mention her needs this Sunday? There might be someone in church that will have an idea of how to help her.

[Hekate]

77. Giving the Mega-pastor a list of outreach programs is a good idea

"I'm tempted to write to Calvary Chapel's head pastor providing him with a list of local community outreach programs with which to educate the office staff and thanking him for the opportunity to serve Christ."

I'm the type that believes in spreading information like that widely whenever possible. I vote for you doing this.

Whether he ever puts it to use is entirely on him. Adding that you appreciate "the opportunity to serve Christ" would be a bonus for you and a needed nudge for him -- and again, whether or not he gets the message is all on him.

I really love the Unitarians, and part of it is the commitment to social justice and community outreach that members bring to it. I raised my kids UU, and when my younger sis and husband were casting about for something that was not the Roman Catholicism he was raised in, I strongly urged they check out the Unitarian church in their area. Since their "area" is Massachussetts, they ended up in one that had been founded in 1769, and have been solid members for going on 20 years. I should admit here that since my kids are grown and my husband works late, I sleep in on Sunday mornings now. But at least I know my old friends don't think I'm going to hell. ;-)

:hug: to you again, PP, you are doing good work.

Hekate

[Canuckistanian]

63. It's radicals like YOU that give the church...

... a GOOD name.

:thumbsup: :toast: :party:

[rateyes]

65. Do you mind telling me what city Calvary Chapel

calls home? I would love to send them an e-mail. :evilgrin:

They must have missed the part about "welcoming strangers." They only help "members" I bet, because they are a bunch of rich-shits who don't need that kind of help from a church.

I bet they get faith-based funds (ought to be illegal) and then use them, instead of on programs for the poor, on salaries and buildings...our tax dollars....

Glad to know there are "preachers" like you out there...gives me SOME hope that there are decent ministers in the world.

[Pacifist Patriot]

93. They're all over the place.

Here's their main website. http://www.calvarychapel.com/

Out of curiosity I looked at their "ministries" page. ICK!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.calvarychapel.com/?show=Ministries That's hardly ministry by my personal definition of the word.

[timber84]

66. my brother is a member of this church and has turned into a completely

different person. They are very cult like.

[Maraya1969]

67. Does the UU church qualify for "faith based" money?

[Pacifist Patriot]

92. I don't know, but we wouldn't take it if we did.

Most UUs (although it gets tricky speaking for UUs in general terms) think it violates the spirit of separation of church in state if not the letter.

[roguevalley]

68. Jesus smiled today. You remembered him. God bless you.

[Hekate]

69. Thank you so much for sharing this...

:hug: and :grouphug:

...and for including the relevant verses from Matthew. Someone (not you) really ought to paste that passage on the front doors of the Mega-Church.

Hekate

[kiteinthewind]

70. God bless you, PP!

:hug:

[Ladyhawk]

72. Thanks for this.

Yeah, the mixed emotions are pretty heavy in my heart, too, just from reading this.

A lady I knew once needed enough money to pay the electrical bill so it wouldn't be turned off. I asked a fundy (who was my friend at the time) if his church would help her pay the bill and he said no, they only kept canned goods, but she was welcome to those. Sigh. :(

Meanwhile, this lady was thinking of joining his church and was shocked to learn that fundy churches want a 10% tithe from your gross income. I wasn't shocked. It's what I'd heard all my life. And what is this church using the money for? The church building, mainly...and a few measly canned goods.

They're currently offering Spanish lessons and are (I believe) planning to assault either Mexico or Costa Rica. My mother hasn't let slip which. Yet.

In my opinion, fundy missionaries are somewhere on the unicellular level when it comes to life forms. My mother fucked up my brother and me with her crazy-ass religion and now wants to try to sell it to some poor Spanish-speaking people. Why can't fundies LEAVE OTHER PEOPLE THE HELL ALONE?????????????????????????

They don't help anyone in the community and instead want to spread their poisonous hellfire-and-damnation dogma to other countries. Sick.

[dalaigh lllama]

73. You UUers are great!

Hopefully my husband and I will be relocating in a few months to an area where I know of a wonderful UU church I've been able to go to when I visit relatives. I'm looking forward to attending, since the nearest one to us now is two hours away.
Hang in there -- I think as more people find out about the Unitarian Universalists, more people will come. The church I'm hopefully going to join when we move has just hired an assistant minister to help with the newbies who have been swelling the ranks these past few years.

[DanCa]

74. Thank you for posting here.

My terrible terrible fear is that soon there would be alaw that requires people to register as a repug before your allowed into a church. When I see liberal ministers, preachers, such as your self my heart is lifted and my fears are subsided. Thank you so much for posting. If it is okay, Ill say a prayer for your church,
God Bless you my friend.

[rockymountaindem]

75. Having opportunities like yours makes me want to become a Rabbi

even though my real career interests are elsewhere. Sometimes it's tempting to give up my concern with the world as a whole and just focus on something more eternal yet local. It's kind of a paradox.

Good for you for helping, though :toast:

[gordontron]

76. it is good to know that there still are real christians out there

I'm agnostic myself, and lean towards athiesm, but this really isn't about religion. I'm so glad your church was able to help her. thanks

[grasswire]

78. speaking as someone with two UU ministers in my family...

...this is a great testimony for the religious left in general and for the OP and his/her flock in particular. Carry on!

But I must say that at a very low point years ago I was helped out by a Nazarene minister and a Foursquare Gospel minister who provided a generous demonstration of the Biblical concept of grace. I've seen some awfully hard hearts in Calvinists, though.

[Guaranteed]

79. The world would be a much better place if there were more churches

like yours.

[Lorien]

80. This atheist salutes you

great job! :toast:

[goddess40]

96. This one does too

but I realize it isn't the relgion that makes great people it is the choices the individual choices each person makes.

[BooScout]

82. I'm not very religious anymore.......

...and to be honest I have turned away mostly because of people you describe in that mega church.

Let me tell you that your story restored a little bit of faith in my heart this morning. Thank you.

[shadowknows69]

83. And someone needs to tell you friend

How much good in this world you do and I personally thank you for it.:applause:

[LittleClarkie]

84. That's why I love my little ELCA bunch o' liberal Lutherans

There is a mega church down the road from us too, complete with cops on Sunday (I'm pretty sure they need more than one.)

I went to a Saturday service once. It was like attending a lecture. Interesting, but I didn't feel like I'd worshiped, like I still needed to go to church, if you know what I mean. I've been to their bookstore a couple of times, and tried to talk to their customer service/help desk/whatever it was supposed to be once, but the person behind the counter was cold as hell, as if I were bothering him.

All in all, not a terribly hospitable place. I can see the attraction of getting lost in a church so big no one ever asks you to back a freakin' cake or volunteer to usher. You're as involved as you decide to be, and no more. Sometimes at my little church, the same people get involved over and over, and sometimes you feel like you're not qualified for a position, and that you're just a warm body.

I didn't know they were a bunch of Democrats until I showed up in church with my Kerry button on. We're in the middle of Freeperville, in Sensenbrenner's district. And yet 9 people out of 10 gave me a thumbs up, or asked for a button, or a yard sign. Until then, I thought I was surrounded by Republicans.

One year, right after my dad had his stroke and my brother lost his job, the pastor surprised me by handing me 50 bucks. Apparently someone had donated it with instructions to give it to a needy family, anonymously. That turned out to be me and my bro.

I get flak from other Christians, who think we are to liberal, not Christian enough, I guess. But I think we do alright.

[NMMNG]

85. Churches like Calvary Chapel know nothing of the teachings of Christ

They are selfish slime who are more about preaching hatred and repression, and dictating orders to others, rather than actually behaving in the manner of Christ.


Your church behaved in a more Christlike manner than theirs did, and probably ever will. Kudos to you! :thumbsup:

[JNelson6563]

87. Bravo!

I so appreciate the kind-heartedness of your efforts. You are a credit to Christianity and they could all learn from you.

No wonder I always have a great appreciation for the UU churches. Most of the others make me wish there really was a hell.

Cheers,
Julie the Heathen

[Joanne98]

88. some mega-churches in OH don't have food pantrys anymore....

their spending the money to upgrade their entertainment centers. their words not mine.

[Memory Container]

89. We have a 'mega-church' near Buffalo

It's called "The Chapel".

They have to direct traffic on Sunday mornings. The road that runs by the place is very small, everyone tries to avoid it on Sunday because of the jams.
I'm sure they give money to certain organizations, but from what I've heard they'll only help individuals who will buy the 'Rapture' thing.

[July]

108. Where is that? I'm from Buffalo, but I don't live there anymore.

What denomination is it?

[eridani]

90. It's a wonderful story! Surely you have earned a Unitarian Jihad handle--

http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~perspy/issues/2002/nov/mae.html

Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States! Too long has your attention been waylaid by the bright baubles of extremist thought. Too long have fundamentalist yahoos of all religions (except Buddhism -- 14-5 vote, no abstentions, fundamentalism subcommittee) made your head hurt. Too long have you been buffeted by angry people who think that God talks to them. You have a right to your moderation! You have the power to be calm! We will use the IED of truth to explode the SUV of dogmatic expression!

<snip>

We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: "Sincerity is not enough." We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. Get a dog, or comfort someone in a nursing home, or just feed the birds in the park. Play basketball. Lighten up. The world is not out to get you, except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone.

People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike without warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if from nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution.

----------------------

Noting the great Cartoon Wars, and the vicious violence of the Left Behind books, I commented a few weeks ago that Marx was wrong about religion. It isn't the opium of the people; it's more like the methamphetamine of the people. Not for Unitarians, though--I think they're all on Ecstasy. I'm not formally a church member, but every dime I send to the UUSC is worth it and more. Keep up the good work.

If you want a Unitarian Jihad handle, generate one here--

http://homepage.mac.com/whump/ujname.html

[Pacifist Patriot]

91. LOL! Jon Carroll is wonderful. I did this awhile back and was dubbed...

Sister Sword of Enlightenment. It's now a joke in my family.

[Bridget Burke]

94. Second Baptist Church of Houston is one of the country's 10 largest

I'd heard they'd "taken over" some of the Katrina relief work & found confirmation on that famous radical site, Mainstream Baptist:

A month ago, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, pastor of one of the largest megachurches in Houston, a church that targets affluent suburbanites and has never taken much interest in the plight of the poor in the past, — paid one million dollars for the right to control the city’s relief efforts for the victims of Hurricane Katrina. Texas State Representative Garnet Coleman says they made an “investment.” Coleman says this megachurch now is a conduit for billions of government dollars being distributed throughout the city of Houston. If you like what the Fundamentalists did when they got control of the purse strings in the SBC, you are going to love what they do with your tax dollars.

www.mainstreambaptistnetwork.org/MBN%20Journals/2006%20Journals/Jan06WhyBaptists.htm

The City & County actually supported a lot of the relief & have NOT been fully repaid. Other churches & non-Christian religious groups did their part but have not lined up at the trough.

The unnamed pastor is Ed Young, whose smarmy presence is well known in Houston from TV commercials. He's been mentioned in some "interesting" aspects of the ongoing investigation of a member of his congregation--Soon To Be Former Rep. Tom DeLay.

[vickitulsa]

105. Heaven help the victims of Katrina! Now a man-made disaster

-- NOT a God- or Jesus-inspired relief effort -- will be following the natural disaster of the hurricane(s).

I read the entire article you linked to, in part because I was finding it a bit hard to believe that the information you excerpted was accurate -- surely it couldn't BE! But yes, oh yes, it appears to me as I read it in the context of an article presenting the accurate history of the Baptists to be only too sadly true that this administration will be funneling billions of our tax dollars into that fundie Houston church.

At the very least, it's a situation ripe for corruption, and at worst it's all part of the plan to scam Americans further, utilizing corrupt megachurches to their best advantage.

It's sickening, it's disheartening, and it's sad beyond measure that victims of natural disasters will never get proper aid and assistance from tax dollars meant for just that.

Thanks for drawing our attention to this, Bridget. The history lesson in the linked article alone is well worth the reading.

[lonestarnot]

97. And there we have some faith based initiative.

[qanda]

98. Thank you for this post

Keep up the good work.

[stepnw1f]

99. God Bless You

You rock!!! You just made me tear up..

[DrGonzoLives]

100. What denomination is Calvary Chapel?

This is kind of interesting...

[Pacifist Patriot]

101. They are their own beast. Here's their main website

http://www.calvarychapel.com/

As I mentioned to someone else above, their "ministries" page leaves a lot to be desired in my personal opinion. Ministry goes beyond handing someone a Bible and asking them to turn their life over to Christ.

[DrGonzoLives]

102. Looks like we have one in town here...

I smell another blog entry following some research...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

104. Bravo!!!

:yourock:

Thank you for sharing that!!

[PleadTheFirst]

106. Thank you for sharing, Pacifist Patriot.

I'm sincerely choked up after reading your post. This is what compassion is all about, and that is something that far too many bogus christians (small caps intentional) know nothing about.

From a very lapsed Irish Catholic kid who hasn't darkened the door of a church in 20 something years, thank you for reminding me that true Christians still exist.

:yourock:

[frankly_fedup2]

107. What is important to a big church compared to (WARNING LONG POST)

small churches. I think we still leave the doors unlocked at our churches, not the big churches, the small country churches do though. People have been destroying things in the last couple of years, and unfortunately they will probably have to lock the doors. I hate that in the Winter time because a lot of those traveling through or homeless always would go inside the church's to get out of the cold. They never destroyed anything and sometimes would leave little notes of thanks.

I belonged to a large Methodist Church and even taught Sunday school and kept the nursery at times. It was the biggest church in town and all the people with "money" (doctors, lawyers, store owners, etc) all went there. I didn't know that at first; however, I wasn't happy with the church I had been going to, I was bored and the people were not very friendly and neither was the pastor. I never felt I fit in, and since I felt that way, I figured I was wasting mine and God's time. Then when I moved to the bigger church, the pastor was very nice and that is what got me so involved in everything. Over a short period of time (maybe a month), I quickly learned in this beautiful, big church that this was more for socializing, being seen, and no one sat in the balcony except the higher class of citizens (financially that is).

Before I saw a lot of things more clearly, and with the pastor being such a great preacher and enjoying his sermons, I decided to get baptized along with my son, and join the church, which added my name to a book as a member. Well, I thought you were a member of that denomination until death due to being baptized in a Methodist Church as well as accepting the doctrine of the church. Boy did I get an education.

At the first of every year, I got a letter from the church asking me what my tithes for the year would be. Also, once I put an amount down and signed the document, it was considered a legal document as the church depended on this money. Well, I was an medical transcriptionist that was not salaried and not making big money. I couldn't promise any certain amount. I know it's suppose to be 10% of our income; however, one of my friends asked me, "Is that 10% of gross or net?" lol. I told her I thought probably net because Jesus talked of taxes to Ceaser (cannot remember exact verse but you know what I mean). Some weeks I could give 10%, some weeks I couldn't. I put down $5 a week because I knew I could always pay at least that that. I was really embarrassed to have to do this. I knew they had a budget, we had a daytime nursery school for the kids, but the parents paid, the church worked with missionairys. We did not pay the pastors salary the Methodist diety??? paid him (I don't know, kind of like the way the Catholic churches do). The church did own a house that the pastor lived in and provided them with a car.

The church had a board that everything had to be cleared through. They were only the "balcony" people, the ones with the money made all the decisions, just like with everything else (i.e. if you wanted to use the kitchen and dining room for personal reasons, if you wanted to get married and when, etc.

When my family was baptized in the church, the pastor invited the other members to come forward and welcome us. Not one balcony person came and welcomed us. There were very few people considering the size of the church to be honest. Over time, it really did not feel like a church to me. Maybe it's me and not the churches, but to me, the ones I have been to seem to be there only for socializing and to be seen going to church. Seriously.

I discussed this with the pastor and he was well aware of what I was saying. He said he had try to change some things; however, the "board" overruled him every time he wanted to try to get the different groups in the church to blend. It was class descrimination in a church. Go figure.

I stopped attending on a regular basis and from time-to-time I go to different Methodist churches. I'm not an every Sunday going church goer, but going to church every Sunday just to say I was in church isn't a guarantee to Heaven either.

About a year and a half after I quit going to that church, I got engaged and I wanted to get married there. I was a member, not in good standing, but I was a member of the Methodist Church no matter where I went until I changed my denomination or converted to some other religion. When I called, the pastor that was there when I was attending full time was gone. There was a new minister. I discussed with him about a certain date. He asked the last time I attended, I told him when. He asked if I was a member. I told him I was still in the book as far as I knew as I was baptised in that church and joined that denomination that day by stating so and was given some kind of certificate showing I was a member of that church. He said he would bring it up to the board.

He never returned my call so I called back and was shocked by what I was told. He told me I was not a member in good standing with the church. I asked him what exactly that meant. He stated about my last years tithes being nothing donated to the church. I told him I didn't know I had to pay to come to church. He stated I didn't; however, I never even sent it in. He also stated that the board said there would be a fee for the use of the church. A fee for the use of the hall and, of course, a donation to the church itself. I told him it was going to just be me, my future husband, my parents, his parents, and our siblings. That is not a lot of people. There would be no decorations, maybe some flowers. He stated rather coldly what the total would cost me and it was over $500. My dress I was going to wear only cost me $80 as this was my second marriage (which had nothing to do with any of this because he never asked about that. Plus, since my first husband committed adultery against me, the Bible says that if young, it would not be a sin for me to remarry but it would for him). I had a 12-year-old son at the time.

Needless to say, I went to another church that the minister was a friend of my parents and they had been to his church. It was nondenominational which was no big deal to me either. One thing that really made me mad and to this day, I do not feel it was right, but If I wanted to get married in that church, the minister insisted upon it. In my vows I had to say OBEY! I told the minister I did not agree with that as we were entering into a partnership and he was like well yes but the man of the house makes the final decision on everything. I was starting to think, forget this marriage stuff, we will just live together because just a simple little ceremony had turned into a nightmare for the last month or so. Well, my future husband LOVED that part. I finally agreed, BUT and that's a big BUT, I told my husband I would say OBEY, but I would not ever OBEY anyone.

When the day came and the vows were said and we got to the OBEY, everyone started to kind of snicker because it was just close family. However, when I said OBEY, I looked my husband in the eye and shook my head NO at the exact same time.

Now he jokes that I don't OBEY and that is a breech of contract. Oh well. lol.

I enjoy Sunday School and miss it and going to church; however, I cannot bring myself to go anymore. I started a couple years ago, loved the church, felt very welcome by everyone but the pastor. He never even welcomed me to the church. He never spoke to me. My friend that went to the church stated he was shy. I told her he was in the wrong profession to be shy. I would walk out with other members and would tell him I enjoyed the sermon and he would say thank you and quickly move to the next person who he would have a short conversation with.

Oh well, my husband and I read the Bible at home (but we need to more than we do). I pray at home (but I know I need to do more).

Hopefully, one day I will find what I'm looking for. I know there are no perfect churches. I know people that won't go to church because they smoke. I ask them do they think everyone sitting in there is perfect? They had vices too. I just don't look at it that the people sitting in that church are closer to God then me just because they meet in a group. Who is to judge.

(sorry so long. I've been off line a couple days and I guess I need to vent)

I have to remember that in the book of Matthew. Sometimes on Sundays I will watch the TRBC with Jerry Falwell. I had to quit watching because of some of the horrible things he would say behind his pulpit.

I remember he was going nutso before the '04 election. Every month leading up to November he got worse and worse. He would think he was getting past the laws of separation of church and state by telling everyone to vote "Christian." Well that was racist against the Jewish Americans. I think they filed some kind of suit against him as well.

Anyway before I get into another 15-page vent, one Sunday the man must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, was tired, and mad as hell about something. He brought up the Liberals and how we hated God, President Bush. We were the baby killers. We didn't support our troops and wanted the terrorists to win. I mean it was off the wall stuff. Now this man stood behind his pulpit stating he would say what he wanted in his church and that he was not scared of the IRS or anyone else. He stated that if Bush was not reelected, we would be attacked again because the Liberals want that to happen to make President Bush look bad. Hey, he doesn't need our help. Anyway, this man stood there and stated, almost verbatim, "If I passed a known Liberal on the street DYING of thirst, I would not give them one teaspoon of water (mumbling in his congregation). . . I mean it, and when I say VOTE CHRISTIAN, if you don't know what I'm saying, then you have rocks in your head." More mumbling in the congregation. Every week until Bush was reselected. Then he kind of tapered off but he still calls N.O.W. the National Organization of Witches, People for the American Way and the Move-on.org's, homosexuals, and baby killers allowed 911 to happen and hope it will again.

I started recording his shows and editing out the wild stuff he said. Then I went to his website and there were transcripts for every Sunday. I thought great; however, there was none of this talk on the transcripts. Just the Bible quotes and his sermon. The political statements were removed. They also offered a free video of his Sunday sermons. Well, I watched those and they were not edited. It was late one night and I thought, I'll record the one where he went nutso and said those horrible things tomorrow. When I went back the next day, they were all gone. The site said they were only going to carry the most recent sermons and that this section wouldn't be working for awhile. I guess they started watching some of his sermons and thought better of it. I could have beat myself in the head for not going ahead and copying it the night before. It still bothers me to this day because I sat there and listened to that man say these things; however, I don't have the audio to prove it, just my word.

I have noticed the last month he has really been running a campaign against the DaVinci Code Movie. This is a work of fiction, the book is fiction and states so; however, he and other ministers are really digging their heels in on this one. Nothing political for a while has come out of his mouth and I'm wondering if that burocracy he wasn't afraid of finally got him and is taking some of his cash? We will see the closer it gets to election time.

One more thing though and I'll shut up. I record to DVD every Sunday his sermons. I'm not going to lose anymore of his hateful remarks that come out of his mouth the closer we get to any election.

If any of you ever see him on CNN, you need to call and ask him why he is there since he claims that nothing is factual on CNN, still calling it the Clinton News Network, (according to him), and that only FOX News tells the truth, so why would he lower himself to go onto such a disgraceful news channel?

I'm done :-)

[Pacifist Patriot]

112. Can you imagine the good that could be done in this world with...

the time, energy and money being spent on campaigning against a novel and a movie?!?!

Sometimes it helps to get it all out. Good rant! :)

[KyndCulture]

109. What a heartwarming story!! Here's one about a mega church.

When I was newly divorced I moved into a rather poor neighborhood, mostly single moms and young people. A young mother moved into the other side of my duplex a short time later. When she had her telephone connected the phone rep gave her a pamplet for The First Baptist Church of Jacksonville... a HUGE mega church. She decided she wanted to take her young son to church. So she caught a bus and went down there one Sunday morning. She was wearing the best clothes she had. A nice pair of Levi's and a pink blouse. When she went to enter the church she was stopped by the "screeners" at the door and shuttled to a room behind a wall of glass with no view of the pulpit. When she asked the man why she had to sit in this room, she was told that "she was not appropriately dressed and that because the service was televised she would not be allowed to be in the room with the cameras" . She started crying and took her 18 month old son and walked 3 miles back home.

This was 15 years ago... I will never forget that story of "God's love".


I really wish there was a UU church in my town. I used to attend services when I lived in Florida.... I miss that fellowship.

[JanMichael]

110. I don't know which Calvery Chapel but several recieve CDBG & ESG funds

Heck just google it:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22Calvary+Chapel%22+cdbg+esg+&btnG=Search

If that didn't do it give me the state you're in and I'll find them.

[CornField]

111. .

That's just how true "people" go through life -- trying to leave things a little bit better than they found them. Good for you and shame on them. :hug:

[intheflow]

115. Thank you, Pacifist Patriot.

You make me proud to be UU, and make me feel like I'm in good company as a UU minister in particular. :hug:

[eridani]

118. You mean "Sister Sword of Enlightenment" don't you? n/t