Duke Rape Case E-mail Shocker

[FredScuttle]

Looks like these boys were planning for a wild night...

"APRIL 5--Shortly after an exotic dancer claimed she was raped at a Duke University lacrosse team party, a member of the squad sent an e-mail announcing that the following night he planned "to have some strippers over" and would be "killing the bitches" as soon as they walked into his dorm room. Disclosure of the e-mail came today with the unsealing of a March 27 search warrant for the residence of Ryan McFadyen, a sophomore lacrosse player."

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke1.html

[central scrutinizer]

1. How is Rush going to spin this?

He has already called them ho's but I guess killing is just what a ho deserves.

[BOSSHOG]

3. Just a bunch of harmless white republican college boys

being victimized by an aggressive liberal media. They're just having fun and the evil nasty liberals in this country can not stand it. No doubt the real racists in this story are the news media. Why are they coming to the defense of hos???

[FredScuttle]

6. Big Pharma will probably do something on "e-mail etiquette"

"Ladies and gentleman, who among us hasn't mentioned 'killing bitches' and 'cumming in their spandex' in an e-mail? Hmmmm?"

[QuettaKid]

7. read it again.

this email concerns a party planned for the night AFTER the initial party when the woman was allegedly raped.....as in a revenge party. payback. spoiled little f*ckers!!

[Beelzebud]

54. Something like this: "They are just frat boys blowing off steam!"

Sound familiar?

[LisaL]

85. Boys will be boys?

[Debi]

2. Just ask Rush

The 'Hos' asked for it.

I hope all these scumbags go to prison. SICK JERKS

[OzarkDem]

71. I know his type

I went to school in the same town Rush grew up in, around the same time he lived there. The local men were the most sexist, racist and sexually repressed group I've ever seen. Women on campus always knew to stay away from the "townies" they were so creepy. Many co-eds who socialized with them ended up being gang raped.

I met one of the locals at a party once, the faded star athlete whose pro-football career ended too soon. When I didn't respond to his caveman overtures he became angry. I ran out to my friend's car (she was driving that night) jumped in and locked the doors. The guy came out and started banging on the car, rocking it back and forth and yelling at the top of his lungs while I laid on the horn. Scary and creepy, just like these types.

[Debi]

92. And that was romance to him!!! n/t

[BlooInBloo]

4. Only certain people are "shocked" by this....

There was a bit more in the email as well....

[bluemarkers]

12. that poster, eh?

wral.com has items taken. including the shocker poster.


from the area, and folks are feeling that Duke and the privileged rich kids have brought this on themselves. Even the religious self righteous know that something bad wrong happened that night. And they aren't blaming the girls either. Plenty are thinking that men should always be gentlemen. Why did they hire strippers in the the first place and why were they drinking. Many are wondering why the "good boys" on the team didn't do something. (not all mind you, but many)

you can only cover up so much ...

[BlooInBloo]

13. I've heard too much "it's not racism"...

... and crap like that....

[LostinVA]

48. My parents live in NC, and say that the news has been VERY pro victim

And VERY anti-player.

[femmedem]

144. That's really good news...

if one could say that anything related to this story is good news. A few decades ago, the media and most everyone else would have doubted the dancer's story, or said she got what she deserved. Hell, women used to be blamed for being raped if they weren't virgins. I'm old enough to remember.

[VelmaD]

5. And some people around here wonder...

why some women on DU object to the use of the word bitch. It's because it's so often used in THIS context that it's hard to see it bandied about as if it was a synonym for woman. *sigh*

[Bunny]

34. I agree Velma.

When it's used with as much venom as this college boy had, it's hard to see how there can be a benign usage for that word.

[LostinVA]

49. You got it

[EllieGreen]

62. Preach it, sister! n/t

[NewJeffCT]

8. wow, that's scary

sounds like a real classy kid.

[Marie26]

9. Not surprising.

Where are the DU defenders of this team?

[Horse with no Name]

10. Probably off in another thread defending racism

as we speak.:evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

50. You got it

[FredScuttle]

11. Exactly....

Giving these animals the "benefit of the doubt" was a poor, poor choice.

[lastliberalintexas]

53. Well, this left wing feminist thinks that

giving them the benefit of the doubt is important, as a presumption of innocence is very important to our legal system in which I work. People on here keep trying to tell me that that presumption only matters in the courthouse, but that's not true. The police could allege that you'd done any number of vile, evil things, splash your picture across the tv, and simply try you in the court of public opinion. I'll bet you'd want to be given the benefit of the doubt. If we don't make it a point to apply that principle to events outside the courtroom, then the presumption of innocence really means nothing. All we have to do is have a "friendly" media source flay you alive, and *bam* you're guilty, whether a trial is ever commenced or not.

And as I've been repeatedly pointing out in other threads, if you don't think that this could happen to you, just call up Richard Jewel and ask him how nice it was to be branded the Olympic Park Bomber and lose his job, friends and much of his life due to overzealous law enforcement officials using the media to convict him before all the evidence was in and before he was even freaking charged with a crime.


Yes, it's looking bad (very, very bad) for the Duke guys. But they still haven't been convicted yet.

[Iris]

56. Yes, but why does "innocent until proven guilty" have to "the victim is a

liar"?

I'm seriously asking. Is this just human nature? And in your field, is there a dialogue about this in any way? Because, it seems to me that trashing the victim in this way is a major obstacle to future victims being inclined to report such crimes.

[lastliberalintexas]

59. No, that kind of response really is from the misogynists

The way that I look at these kinds of allegations is by simply withholding any judgment until more facts are known. I *try* to neither condemn nor defend either party and simply await the results of the investigation into the charges and then look to see what the prosecutor does with the information. (though even that isn't perfect because there are times that prosecutors fail to file cases for political reasons) And I'm by no means perfect, as I certainly pre-judge people and situations as others do.


There have been discussions of these issues in the legal field over the last few decades, and the rape shield laws have been one result of those discussions.


I really think that the people who would respond to rape allegations by blaming the victim or saying that s/he asked for it are just misogynists/jerks not interested in the truth. JMHO, of course!

[Iris]

69. I see what you are saying. But I still find it interesting that every

move of the victim is questioned and scrutinized and some people call foul when people question the motives of an athletic team (in this case, but you could put "fraternity" or other group in here) that won't cooperate with the authorities.

[lastliberalintexas]

73. Yes, but

we're not required to cooperate with the authorities, whether as individuals or as members of any team. We're not here to do the government's job for them, which is to prove these allegations beyond a reasonable doubt before a jury. If the government desires to deprive me of my liberty, then they better darn well be prepared for me to force them to present the evidence and put on the show necessary for a jury to convict me, because I'm not going down without the fight.

And I'm sure that many people feel that those guys who aren't targets of the investigation should cooperate, since it doesn't hurt them. Not knowing all the facts means I can't say for certain, but I don't know if I'd want a client of mine to cooperate given that they could be turned into a target at any time. It depends on the facts of the situation, what my client did/didn't do and the proof of same, who the prosecutor is and whether s/he will stick to agreements or is trustworthy, etc. It isn't always a simple answer, and certainly not an easy one.

[FredScuttle]

138. You're a "left wing feminist"?

Go ahead.....give these animals the benefit of the doubt. And I mean everyone.....the actual assailants and the partygoers who allowed this assault to go on. Ridiculous

[northzax]

75. we're tribal beings

the instinct is to protect the group against attacks from the outside. It's not an excuse, simply an explanation.

[FredScuttle]

137. It's no excuse

nor is it any sort of rational explanation. There was a woman being raped, sodomized and strangled in a bathroom....there's no rational explanation for why any of the partygoers couldn't stop it.

[LostinVA]

64. I said this very thing in a thread about this case last Friday

Saying they're Innocent until proven guilty translates into many, many people thinking that means the victim is a liar.

[stanwyck]

70. You make a valid point

if there are innocents on the LaCrosse team guilty by association in this sordid story, they're going to carry the taint with them.
The ugliness of the email is definitely going to make it difficult for people not to think all of these young men as heinous individuals.
As stomach-turning as this story is, and it's horrid, we need to remember that we have a framework for dealing with the guilty. And the innocent.
And as outraged as we might be, we owe each other the respect of waiting for our legal system to punish the guilty. And exonerate the innocent.

[FredScuttle]

140. "innocent"?

There were 43 men who stood by while a woman was savagely raped, sodomized and strangled in a bathroom. There are no fucking innocents! Anyone who's protecting the animals who committed this heinous act are as guilty as the assailants.

[LostinVA]

146. None are innocents, although some are legally innocent

Not turning in violent criminals does NOT make you an innocent... it makes you an accessory in evil... because this act was evil. Just because they're your buddies, your teammates, doesn't make this some kind of sweet male bonding. THEY should have called the cops that night and reported the rapes...

[obnoxiousdrunk]

25. Busy bashing

Cynthia Mckinney. Give them some time.

[northzax]

36. well, two things

one, this is one guy, not 47. and two: the person he sent this email to turned it over to the cops. so someone had a sense of decency about it. I bet it will turn out to be another team member. but maybe not.

[Marie26]

38. Nice guys

One, they were all in the same house together. This "person" is not one of the teammates accused of the assault, but he sent the email off about 30 minutes after the rape occurred. How did he know about it? Either he saw it, or else the assailants were bragging about it to the other teammates. In response, he decides to plan another "party" for the next night. I bet this entire damn team knew what happened within an hour after she managed to escape. So what do they do? Do they go to the police, turn over evidence? No, they stay silent & close ranks. When the police come to interview them, they uniformly refuse to cooperate & all claim complete innocence. I think they had gotten together to get their story straight. Second, it seems like this was a group email sent to a large number of people; the surprising thing isn't that one person eventually turned it over, but that so many did not.

[northzax]

41. you are making just as many assumptions

yes, this guy is an asshole and will be expelled from Duke for this email. but you are making assumptions and suppositions about the email as well, and the team behaviour. how do you know who it was sent to?

this email means he's an asshole and an idiot, it doesn't mean he's a rapist, or knows anything about one. maybe it was the first time he'd had strippers in person? who knows?

[FredScuttle]

44. "first time he'd had strippers in person"?

LOL...of all that tortured defenses of these animals, that has to be #1...."It was OK when I saw strippers on TV, but once I saw one in person, I felt compelled to send out an e-mail of a sick, homicidal fantasy. The strippers made me do it!"

I don't need to give the benefit of the doubt to a sub-human who would put these thoughts in writing and send them out. Fuck him.

[northzax]

51. well gee, I keep calling him an asshole who needs to be expelled

it's no evidence of criminal activity on his part, is it? Actually, based on tihs email, I think all men's athletics at Duke should be cancelled forever, obviously, since one of them is an asshole, they all are, right?

it's a logical extension of what people are saying.

due process, due schmocess, I guess. This guy has hung himself by sending an email, does that mean he hung everyone else as well?

[bettyellen]

87. i know, i hope the dumb fuck uses that as a defense.

i really don't need to see more to know this guy is a complete piece of shit.

[Marie26]

57. Oh, forgot to mention

The fact that neighbors & passersby heard the sounds of a woman's screams & shouted racial slurs coming from inside the house; but apparantly, the 40+ teammates inside didn't hear a thing. Nearly a quarter of the Duke lacrosse team has been arrested before for misdeamenors, mostly involving lewd behavior. The same night of the rape, another woman called 911 to report that someone from that address was shouting racial slurs at her & her friend & that her car had been defaced with "KKK". These are not assumptions, these are facts. How you can look at these facts & continue to assume they did nothing wrong here is beyond me. At the very least, the "person" who sent this email knew what had happened almost immediately. If he helped cover it up, he's an accesory after the fact & if he knew or encouraged this crime at the time, he's an accomplice as well.

[northzax]

67. I don't assume anyone did anything

I assume that if there is evidence of rape, then the rapists will be tried in court, not in the press. Funny how the same people who assume the Duke players are guilty, all of them, have a very strong correlation to the people who think we should wait to hear all the facts before concluding that Rep. McKinney hit a police officer. we either have innocence until proven guilty, or we don't. which one is it?

yes, the school did the right thing in suspending the season, and should pursue internal disciplinary action, based on their codes of conduct, for all the students. And if the DA can prosecute any of them, he/she certainly should, including for any obstruction issues that may come up. The first up, for the school at least is this asshole, who will certainly be expelled.

But what I don't like are the statements that since this schmuck, who isn't accused of the rape himself, sent a drunk email, that the entire team is somehow culpable for something. They may be, but that's what investigations and trials, both internal and external are for.

[Marie26]

74. The law has to wait

before reaching a conclusion, I do not. I don't assume that "the entire team is somehow culpable for something" because of his email, I assume it because 40+ lacrosse team members didn't hear the sounds of a woman being raped & insulted while people across the street did. Because 40+ teammates all claim they heard & saw nothing (clearly at least 4 did) & because thay ALL collaborated to stonewall the police.

[NaturalHigh]

134. Innocent until proven guilty.

It's funny how so many people chanted this mantra when the McKinney story hit the front page, but most of the reaction was skip the trial, hang the bastards when the Duke story came out.

[Marie26]

143. Mantras

If I recall, you suggested in the thread last week that the NY Times story was "suspicious" and that the DA was about to drop the charges against the teammates. What do you think about that position now in light of this new information?

[Jersey Devil]

14. He sent this email AFTER the party and the rape?

Am I reading this wrong?

[Marie26]

16. Yeah, apparantly the same night.

The email is dated March 14, 1:58 AM. The victim called police March 14, around 1:22 AM. So, it looks like he was writing this email to his buddies almost immediately after the rape occured, and planning for the next night. God, that affidavit is sickening.

[xultar]

17. Nope. After.

[FredScuttle]

18. Yup

apparently, he didn't get his fill of ulraviolence from the earlier party.

NOTE: this fine gentleman is not one of the rapists ID'd by the victim

[xultar]

19. Seems to me he liked it and wanted to take it to the next level with

another woman.

[FredScuttle]

21. Just to be clear

this fine young man is not one of the players the victim has identified as her assailants in the bathroom.

[xultar]

29. Yeah he didn't get his piece and wanted too the next night.

[FredScuttle]

32. "killing bitches" and "skinning them"

Thank God I don't have children because if I had a daughter who was involved with this abortion of a human being, I'd throw myself off a bridge.

[Marie26]

27. That's my sense as well. nt

[Judi Lynn]

20. Announcing his plans for the FOLLOWING evening, not the previous one.

Obviously. Reading the link will probably help.

[Jersey Devil]

31. Duh

Thanks, looked again, didn't realize the affidavit continued on following pages.

This guy is not only sick but incredibly stupid.

[nashville_brook]

15. the guy's email address is listed in the document

just pointing that out.

[FredScuttle]

23. I doubt he'll be receiving mail at that address for much longer

I'm sure the university's drawing up the expulsion letter as we speak.

[nashville_brook]

39. this reminds me of the AZ leadership camp sodomy case

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2209889

[helderheid]

22. oh my god

:puke:

[AngryAmish]

24. Ok, Duke defenders

What do you think now of your spoiled students? Nice bunch of guys you have down there. This sickens but does not suprise me, especially from Duke.

[FredScuttle]

28. It's not so much Duke defenders as it is rape apologists

When this story broke, we had a couple folks who were bending over backwards to be "fair and balanced" to those poor lacrosse players...why, they said, it's completely rational to imagine how that wicked stripper lured those poor innocent boys into the bathroom and forced them to rape and sodomize her...:sarcasm:

All that talk of "ulterior motive" and "she's trying to get some money"...disgusting.


on edit: forgot to mention that some felt this woman's occupation somehow mitigated the horrific assault she endured.

[AngryAmish]

30. I saw it and it sickened me

From the beginning the story had a ring of truth to it -- but I have also heard some weird things about the police being at the house before the call. Anyway, I am agnostic on guilt right now but the one thing we do not need is to be calling the women "hos" and infering they are making up crimes to make cash. That is sickening.

The facts that we do have is that this guy is a scumbag. But I am waiting for the Dukies to come out of the woodwork to defend this pissant.

[FredScuttle]

35. The line that got me

from the original story was, according to the witnesses on the street, as the two dancers were hurriedly getting into their car to get away, one of the players yelled "Be sure to thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt!"

I wanted to punch something...hard, when I read that.

[mirandapriestly]

61. OMG, OMG..nt

[LostinVA]

52. There's a LTTE in today's Durham paper that says that

Fourth letter down


http://www.herald-sun.com/opinion/hsletters/index.html#720603

[DBoon]

26. overprivilege = a culture of crime and violence

we need to break the cycle of violence caused by this abberant caucasian culture of agression.

I mean, for years pundits have said these things about poor urban minorities. I think it is fair to say the same about the rich.

[nashville_brook]

43. hierarchy IS oppression ?? yes/no/maybe ??

it's evident here and in the Arizona leadership camp rapes (by children of Repubs). the language is the same -- "doing them with brooms, flashlights" as in Abu Ghriab.

digging deeper... the mechanism of the abuse is psycho-sexual. it's always about debasing the weak using sexual violence. as if these guys have only experienced power in the context of fucking or getting fucked.

why? where is this learned? kids don't just wake up one day and say to themselves, "i'm going to anally rape someone today." they were initiated, just the same way they "initiate" others. there's a feedback loop here you are so correct to point out the mechanism of class privilege. just check out the orthodontic work on this guy!



with this guy, you've got class privilege, gender privilege, physical privilege, and racial privilege all focused in the rape of these women. these guys have every advantage possible and they use it for evil (to be perfectly clear).

so, the MORE advantage people enjoy, the more likely they are to commit evil acts in order to maintain their status and/or perception of personal power.

does this surprise ANYONE? i went to school with assholes like this. just rubbed shoulders with them at my 20-year reunion. they are still assholes -- only now they are officers in the military or corporate executives.

the nice boys... the guys in band(s) or who walked around with scientific calculators attached to their belts (otherwise known as my boyfriends) endured or avoided the bullying. small victories were had when their bands became popular or they landed sweet jobs developing software... but i'll tell you, they are still working out karma from the hazing of adolescence. and NO ONE talks about it.
_____________

say hello to san peeedro for me. i was just there and can't wait to return.

[DBoon]

45. power is the ability to cause someone else pain

I think Orwell said that in 1984 somewhere.

And I am so sick of hearing people talk about "disfunctional ghetto culture" and not give these guys the same treatment.

There is something pathological about the upper class in this country

[bloom]

46. Some people talk about it...

http://bitingbeaver.blogspot.com/2006/02/rape-as-control.html

[nashville_brook]

55. i think these sodomy rituals and this lacrosse rape are more mundane

and thereby way worse, than the bitingbeaver presents. she's spot on with the fundamentals -- but the interplay of class, race, and hierarchical position are really new to the debate. we are seeing more and more of the broomstick and flashlight type of assault regardless of the gender of the victim.

it's like a cultural sickness that vectored out of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and is spreading all over the place. it's wholescale torture. like some sort of Clockwork Orange run amok.

[bloom]

83. One person who writes about that

and who is anti-war and I think sees the connection Torture at Gitmo, etc. and sexual violence here - is Robert Jensen.

http://www.vawnet.org/SexualViolence/Research/VAWnetDocuments/AR_PornAndSV.pdf

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/genderarticles.htm

------

I think the "cultural sickness" is part of the "Frat Boy" entitlement mentality. In this case it was jocks. In another it's the son of a millionaire and his friends. It's related to George Bush and his attitude and war crimes. He is giving torture legitimacy.


A study on rape-free societies. (ours seems to be going in the wrong direction with more misogyny - less equality):

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/rapea.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=341x5029

[MountainLaurel]

78. He hit the trifecta, plus one

with this guy, you've got class privilege, gender privilege, physical privilege, and racial privilege all focused in the rape of these women. these guys have every advantage possible and they use it for evil (to be perfectly clear).

:applause:

[nashville_brook]

80. i challenge everyone to reflect on high school and not find a few

of these creeps wandering around the superlatives list.

[LostinVA]

147. You got it

[Judi Lynn]

33. Sports Illustrated/CNN website: Police find lacrosse e-mail

Police find lacrosse e-mail
Message sent by Duke player soon after alleged rape
Posted: Wednesday April 5, 2006 3:22PM; Updated: Wednesday April 5, 2006 3:45PM

DURHAM, N.C. (AP) -- Hours after an exotic dancer was allegedly raped by members of the Duke University lacrosse team, a player apparently sent an e-mail saying he wanted to invite more strippers to his dorm room, kill them and skin them. It was not clear whether the message was serious or a joke.

Investigators did not return calls seeking comment about the nature of the e-mail. But a lawyer for the player who purportedly wrote it said the content suggests his client is innocent.
(snip)

The e-mail, according to an application for a search warrant of the player's dorm room, was sent from his Duke e-mail account just before 2 a.m. on March 14. Police said investigators received a copy from a confidential source, though they later won a court order seeking access to the account.

In the e-mail, addressed "To whom it may concern," the player says he has "decided to have some strippers over" to his dorm room, "however there will be no nudity."

"I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off," the author of the e-mail says, adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying.
(snip/...)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/04/05/duke.lacrosse.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[Judi Lynn]

37. Just heard the lacrosse team coach has resigned on AP radio news.n/t

[AngryAmish]

40. and the season is cancelled

deadspin.com

[mitchum]

42. Looks like the North Carolina State Prison is gonna have a hell...

of a lacrosse team

Sick, spoiled little fuckwits

[bloom]

47. article "Duke rape allegation exposes system’s contradictions"

pretty good article about it (usually the “Cacerolazo” aspect is overlooked):

"When the violently racist nature of the attack was finally revealed to the public on March 24, community outrage was swift and immediate. Durham residents quickly set up listservs and message boards in order to coordinate community response and planning. On March 25, a silent demonstration was held in front of the lacrosse field to protest Duke’s match against Georgetown, holding signs bearing strong messages such as “Don’t be a Fan of Rapists.” As it turned out, Duke forfeited the Georgetown match at the last minute, in anticipation of mounting public anger. Later that night, community members held a candlelight vigil in front of the house at 610 N. Buchanan in order to express support for the victim. The very next morning, activists from across the Triangle gathered in front of the house and staged a “Cacerolazo” wake-up call—a traditional form of protest used by women in Latin America to publicly shame rapists and batterers. The participants banged on pots and pans while powerfully chanting calls for justice and solidarity."

http://www.workers.org/2006/us/duke-0413/

[nashville_brook]

58. i had not heard this part of the story... how COOL!

[lastliberalintexas]

60. I'm not too sure how I feel about that in our country

In parts of the world where acts of violence against women and children are NEVER prosecuted, that would be a great tool of the citizenry to try to force such prosecutions. But in this case, where there are allegations, an investigation is ongoing and criminal charges are likely to be brought but no one has been found guilty as of yet, I'm not so sure that I like that kind of protest.

The half of me that is a lawyer hates it, the half of me that is a person likes it. :shrug:



And yes, lawyers really do have some life in them beyond the alien lizard variety. :)

[bettyellen]

66. people don't forget the football players in Glen Ridge rape, and i'm sure

many others where the community closed ranks to protect their golden boys. all too common until recently.
it ain't so long ago that a case like this wouldn't be prosecuted, period. look at the sodomy cases in utah.
people are trying to speak truth to power, or rather, make sure the truth is not swept under the rug. we have hundreds of years of crap like this upunished, if. this little backlash could empower victims, so the other 2/3 might someday step forward, then it's a good thing.

[lastliberalintexas]

68. As I said, I'm torn

I truly believe that it is better for 100 guilty people to go free than for 1 innocent person to be wrongly convicted, and I believe that our CJ system works best when that principle is implemented fully. At the same time, I also believe that victims (esp of sexual assault, as that is an underreported offense) should be taken care of by the system as well. Very hard to balance those two.

[bettyellen]

86. i wish Utah was awash in protest over the sodomy case.....

as far as sexual assault goes, the justice system is an embarrassment.
has been for a long time. i have no problem with protesters shining light on the systemic failures.

[Debi]

93. You and John Adams

And most defense attorneys. The guilty deserve every punishment they get (and in this care more after that). The innocent don't deserve to be lumped with the guilty. Oh to be a male, white athlete at Duke right now who has class and morals (there just has to be some) and yet are being targeted because of the heinous behavior of those who fit the profile.

[northzax]

72. and you will issue the first apology

if one of the people targeted was not involved in the rape? We don't need public shaming here, there is an investigation underway, and it's certainly not being swept under the rug, even if someone tried, Duke wouldn't allow it at this point, they are under insane amounts of pressure from alumni and students to do something. And they are, and will. criminal accustations have been levied, if the DA and the school can prove anything, they will. Even in the most heinous of crimes, there is a burden of proof, even now.

[bettyellen]

79. i can't feel bad if we have 20 years of backlash where we shame the perp

after hundreds of years shaming the women who were victims. i offfer no apologies, nor do those protestors need YOU to tell them what feels necesary in THEIR community after the way this criime was initially treated. so no thanks for the unsolicited advice on how we should behave.
the team would have played their stupid lacrosse game as usual if people hadn't shown them up, and damn straight that would be improper to many in the community.
the burden of proof is for court, and we are not there yet. in the meantime, people can express themselves and their concern as they see fit.
i wish people in utah would get as noisy about the sodomy case, or would you have a problem with that also?

[northzax]

82. well, I guess you're right

I suggest everyone at that party be branded with a "R" on their foreheads. let's not even bother with investigations, or anything like that, they just get in the way of a nice mob action, right? after all, it's not like we have a document that protects the rights of the individual against the wishes of the mob, oh wait a minute, I think I learned something in my fifth grade civics class about that, what's that document called again?

anyone who says anything negative about the victim should be shamed, because they have done something in the public domain, people can be hoist on their own words, I have no problem with that at all. I know nothing about her, save what's in the media, so I certainly can't comment on her, I haven't and I won't. Likewise, the only thing I know about any of the players is what's in the media (including this disgusting email) so I can't really comment on that, either, can I?

At least you're honest, that the public shaming of a group of people without evidence is the exact same thing as the public shaming of a victim.

[bettyellen]

84. ooh please with the "R" branding bullshit, and putting words in my mouth

dude. no one is advocating the elimination of due process, so stop wasting time with that strawman BS.
and get over this victim crap because you are way overplaying it, okay?
people are are protesting, not lynching. and they have every right to. the school pretending nothing happened for two weeks is shameful. they knew better, but they wanted to see if they could make it go away.
they are doing the right thing now only because they were forced to by people making a fucking big deal of it, not because it's their natural inclination. as you said yourself, they'd rather close ranks and protect each other, same as the team is doing now, on lawyers advice. the protesters are pushing for justice.

like i asked twice, don't you wish they'd make some noise in Utah? or are you thrilled with due process over there?
pls stop commenting on things i never said and answer that.

[northzax]

88. if your son lived there

and was completely innocent of everything besides having assholes for roomates, and he called, saying 'Mom, there's a mob outside calling me a rapist' what would you say? 'Sorry, son, but someone raped someone there, and so you deserve to be shamed because the community is frustrated.'

[bettyellen]

89. he shouldn't be stonewalling the police, so yeah, he deserves the shame

he's getting now too. if he's one of the 6-7 that was no where there, he should stand up and say so, but he's be trained to close ranks. sometimes you have to be a human being first. ahead of your family, team, whatever.

and it's very telling, how you couldn't show me enough respect to answer my questions.
so, i'm done, see ya.

[northzax]

90. sorry, I forgot to point out

that Utah and Durham, North Carolina are completely different places. Was there an investigation underway before the 'shaming'? why yes? was there action underway by the school? why yes. Could the school have acted sooner? perhaps, but I don't know when the school was informed that there was an investigation against any of it's students. did the school know the severity of the charges before the game against Georgetown? or more than a few hours before then? seems to me that the school had about a 60 minute window to assess the situation, and then made the right call.

seriously, you would advise your son, having been told that he's facing obstruction charges, to talk to police, against the advice of counsel?

your other questions seemed a bit rhetorical, so that'd be why I didn't answer them.

[bettyellen]

91. rhetorical means i didn't expect an answer, but i asked you 3-4X now.....

so, i'm sure you know better or perhaps you just chose your words carelessly.

but you know, don't anwer and ask me questions, whatever, it's smacks of male privlige like your little excuse up thread about maybe it was his first time he had a stripper. good one, dude! that was f'ing brilliant. it's her fault for provoking that email!! i hope the little mysoginist uses it as a defense.

and all this abpout having a son is irrelevant, cause he is facing obstruction charges BECAUSE HE STONEWALLED, not vice versa, and chose his team over the truth, as you "explained" upthread. if he's guity, i guess i'd tell him to stfu, except to his lawyer.
but if he was protecting violent rapists? merely because they are on the same team?? you're kidding right? i'd never let him in my home again. ever. no joke. i'd tell him he better tell everything he knows right fucking now or he's dead to me.

and so, you don't think protesting can help force issues to the fore front?
possibly get a game canclled or embarrass the shit out of a judge for letting a WEALTHY MORE POWERFUL SODOMIZER slide. oh gosh, what am i thinking, there are no similarities here, none at all, it's all so... rhetorical??? WTF?

[bettyellen]

94. so you would advise your son to protect his teamates + obstruct

justice?
that's the imprsssion i'm getting here. tribal my ass, that's really fucked up.

[northzax]

95. no, I would suggest he consult an attorney

and follow the advice of that attorney.

same thing I would suggest than anyone being formally interviewed by the police should do, especially if they refuse to formally rule you out as a suspect.

[bettyellen]

96. so even if your kid was innocent and saw a crime, it would be cool w/ you

if he didn't cooperate.
tks from all us women here. and thank your hypothetical son, the little asshole.

[northzax]

98. I don't suggest anyone who is being interrogated

by the police to do so without an attorney present.

remember, everyone there has been threatened publically, with obstruction of justice and aiding and abetting a felony. that's TWO felonies already (in north carolina at least) two. they ask someone, who was probably drinking at the party, 'where were you at 11:35?" he says "in the basement playing pool" or "I don't know, exactly" and then changes his story, he can be charged with lying to investigators. I suggest you try something. Write down a minute by minute list of everything you did on saturday night. everything. And then hope that I can't find a witness who will swear, under oath, that your list is even slightly wrong. I get five people to swear that you were somewhere at 10:45, not 11:00, and that is potentially important, I can get you on lying to investigators, which (you'll no doubt recall) was what they got Martha Stewart and her million dollar defense team on. What's your chances?

unless you know something exact, and can point to someone else, I wouldn't talk to police about anything you might be accused of later without an attorney present. To do otherwise is simply stupid.

[bettyellen]

99. nobody who cooperates gets hit with obstruction charges. you can make

up whatever excuse you want for it, but we both know it's that tribal CYA behaviour. they have lawyers and are not talking.
hope your daughter never needs someone not to look the other way, cause you'd have to explain to her, how that was okay for them to do.

at this point, you didn't answer a single question i ask, and make up dumb inaccurate stuff about this team as if they are wanting to, but can't cooperate. total BS. they could have chosen to do the right thing at any time. and you don't have to be making up phony excuses for them. but y'all made your choices.

[northzax]

101. I must have missed the part

where voluntarily giving DNA samples (there was no court order, the police need a court order to force you to give up DNA) wasn't cooperation with an investigation?

and I hope your son never is accused of a horrific crime he didn't do and is publically shamed for it.

[bettyellen]

102. they are not cooperating, because the court order would have come...

and they know it, they have been stonewalling the police since day 1.
still no answer. fuck this.

[northzax]

104. and you will swear

that there is no player cooperating with police beyond the DNA sample, which is apparently not cooperating? how much are you willing to put on that? seriously, name your price, and I will match it. yes, it's not fair, since I know more than you do, but that's ok.

let's make a deal, shall we? you say not one player is talking to the police about what happened. I say that's not true. loser pays the winner's rent for a year (or mortgage, if applicable.) in my case that's just over 12 grand. I'm willing to put that on the line, are you?

come on then, I'm sick of paying rent, back your statements up already.

[bettyellen]

105. still no answer. change the subject again, because you just don't have one

cute.
you're as slippery as those players.

[northzax]

106. what am I supposed to be answering again?

that I would advise anyone being interrogated by the police to seek the assistance of an attorney and follow her advice? I think I said that. several times. so yes, I'd be ok with anyone following the advice of an attorney, and I'd be ok with anyone not conducting a trial in the media.

There are players cooperating with the investigation, they just aren't issuing press releases about it. And the school has been asked by the DA not to investigate internally until the official criminal investigation is complete. not sure what else you are looking for? perhaps a public stockade?

[bettyellen]

107. if you think cooperating after they know a DNA test is inevitable is

somehow laudable, you are doing more than explaining the tribal behaviour, you are making excuses for it. no need to play possum about it.
and no, that wasn't the question, and i ain;t going to fetch it for you either. you obviously prefer to ignore it at this point. and instead spout off about your hypothetical rhetorical rape ignoring son. hope you're pleased with the values you've failed to instill in him.
:hi:

[northzax]

108. the DNA test is not inevitable, by the way

no judge would order a DNA test for 45 people. not going to happen. If the authorities can give probable cause to test a few people they will probably get it, but 45? not a chance.

[bettyellen]

109. it is inevitable for the accused, and that's all that matters, silly.

they were hoping the dancer wouldn't be credible and they could make it go away. but if you're not one of the three attackers the DNA means nothing, zip- same as they told the cops they knew the next day, to protect their friends.

and you've been about as cooperative as they were, so thanks for proving my point!

[northzax]

111. who are the accused again?

three out of 45 guys. She didn't id them, specifically, before the DNA samples were taken. I don't think she has yet, but I could be wrong on that. so they didn't have a suspect, they had a couple of dozen suspects.

[FredScuttle]

112. You are wrong

She had their first names, or least the names they were using in front of her. They were given to police in her original statement. The names correspond to first names of team members.

[northzax]

116. so why DNA test 45 people, again?

simply to waste the state's money (it's a thousand dollars or so a pop, for a rush job like this)

[FredScuttle]

122. You are some piece of work, my friend

Yeah, no need for a rush....why spend the dough on a gang-rape/sodomy/strangulation case with a group of suspects that is stymieing the investigation to protect the three actual assailants? Not like there's worldwide interest in it now or anything. :sarcasm:

on edit - additionally, the names the victim heard were common names like "Adam" and "Mike"...there were a number of players on the team who shared first names with the list gathered from the victim...hence, the need to test everybody, since no one would come forward to identify her assailants.



BTW, did anyone catch this tidbit:

"The Herald-Sun also reported that some lacrosse players gave accounts of what transpired on the night of the alleged attack to university administrators. Nifong told the newspaper that he would ask the school to disclose those accounts voluntarily. If the university withholds the information, Nifong would seek a court order to obtain the testimonials."

From ESPN's article: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2392626&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

[bettyellen]

113. i just have to laugh at YOU asking ME questions after all this.

you really have a set of stones on you. i'll give you that, and the fact that you could be wrong.

[FredScuttle]

115. not to mention

the poster's acting like the 42 players were acting like pious choirboys while their three bad-apple teammates were busy raping and sodomizing a helpless woman in the bathroom. I remember something about the 2nd dancer being separated from the victim...isn't that aiding and abetting?

Anyone at that party who didn't break down that door and stop the attack....or do anything to stop the attack is a gutless coward at best and a willing accomplice at worst and deserves the scorn and derision of their community. And, yes, I will judge because I have the good sense to speak out and not stay silent when a crime is being committed!

[Marie26]

117. You're a good man, FredScuttle. nt

[FredScuttle]

118. It shouldn't be difficult

to realize that when your friends are committing a heinous crime, your decision has to be to stop them. Anything else and you're abetting the crime.

[Marie26]

123. It shouldn't be difficult

That's why it's so disturbing that not one person stopped this. And that this kid felt free to e-mail this to all his buddies, because he obviously expected that they would think this is "cool." God knows what they were planning. It seems like there was a culture of misogyny at that school & it's a little scary to me. The more men that speak out against these sort of crimes, the better, for all of us.

[bettyellen]

120. see unlike that poster, you are a human being first, not a "tribal" team

mate concerned only about CYA, hiding behind the law as an excuse for NOT doing the right thing and confusing a protest with a lynching. what a drama queen.
thank you for being a real man.

[FredScuttle]

125. Thank you for your kind words

but for men to act like real men, not cavemen in heat, shouldn't be applauded, it should be expected.

[LostinVA]

148. I've always appreciated your comments and help on these type of threads

Trust me, the effort doesn't go unnoticed...

[northzax]

128. well, since Fred pointed out

that they are probably all guilty of aiding and abetting, you're suggesting that they should walk into the police station and say, "Hi, I'd like to confess to a felony, please." that does sound smart. can you be my lawyer?

[bettyellen]

130. it's all about helping them cover their asses, and that's exactly where

the intentional obtuseness comes in.
it's really telling that doing the right thing never enters the posters radar, not for a moment.
and it's really disturbing to see here on DU.

[AllieB]

132. It frightens me that a Democrat or progressive could have such an attitude

sounds more like the 'me first' above-the-law attitude seen elsewhere.

[northzax]

133. you are right

the legal system, the idea of having representation and not self incriminating. those aren't liberal values at all.

morally right or not, anyone who, without legal counsel, confesses a felony to a police officer is an idiot. You are free to, however, if you want. 'Excuse me, officer, I would like to spend the next few years in a state penitentiary. No, I don't need a lawyer, what I did was wrong, I want to plead guilty and ask for the maximum sentence." and then issue a press release, so that everyone else knows that you did the right thing. that is brilliant, isn't it?

[bettyellen]

135. at least now you admit it's all about the CYA tribal shit, before you were

merely explaining it, now you are promoting it.
at least you're finally being upfront about your lack of ethics.

[FredScuttle]

139. you trivialize the true victims of the justice system in this country

you're equating those with no means for a reasonable defense with these pampered college heroes....yes, everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, but you and I both know that's a pipe dream. You insult those who are truly victimized by the system by saying that these animals deserve any benefit of the doubt.

I certainly hope that you never have a female member of your family victimized in a situation like this....I strongly doubt you'd be looking out for the due rights of these gutless cowards who are stonewalling the investigation.

[bettyellen]

142. and he'd like to take away the women's right to protest by equating THAT

with lynching. Yeah, he actually called it lynching with a straight face.

[Marie26]

131. They would if they had any sense of decency.

Or a conscience. You never seem to consider that.

[AllieB]

127. Judging by the quality of the responses above

I would say that some of the posters have women issues. That's the only explanation for such intentional obtuseness.

Thank you for comments, FredScuttle. You prove that there are men who've evolved.

[mirandapriestly]

63. Thank God.nt

[OzarkDem]

65. Little Cro-Mags

they should be locked up and used as an example to their other caveman buddies.

[salin]

76. it makes me terribly sad that this kid thought nothing about sending

this email... as if no one would find it frightening/horrifying/exceptionally objectionable. Wonder if any of the recipients turned it in - since it was sent AFTER the attack. What monsters are we raising with a sense of such safe and violent entitlement - that there are no social restraints to mentally suggest... hey if you send this you might be signalling to others a real problem - and a real threat to other people. Instead it indicates living in a sphere where expressing such disdain, such violence is just okey dokey boys will be boys stuff.

[SeattleGirl]

77. "Killing the bitches"

My, sounds like such a nice young man. :sarcasm:

[roguevalley]

81. children of privilege don't work to earn what they have. they have

draft horses and mules -the rest of us- to plump up their trust funds. there will be more and more of this as the children of fuckers like Ken Lay grow up and spread out. perhaps the next time, the stripper will carry a gun and wax a few of them. Part of me would clap.

[Atman]

97. His lawyer's statement says the e-mail doesn't mean "rape."

Sure, I suppose not. A guy that would brag about killing a bitch and cutting her skin off, hell, he couldn't possibly RAPE someone. He's a nice boy! With a flair for creative writing!

[bettyellen]

100. just necrophilia!! because cumming into your spandex after murder is so

admirable.

[FredScuttle]

103. I don't think the fundies are going to be happy with this lad

after all, think of all the babies slaughtered when he pitches his spandex shorts on top of his X-Box. Oh, the humanity!

[petronius]

110. I really didn't understand the lawyer's argument at all

He was saying that because the kid wrote the e-mail, it proves nothing happened, because if something had happened the kid wouldn't have written about it? :wtf:

It's more likely that the kid wrote about it because it was on his mind because he witnessed it ... duh! Sounds like this asshole is getting the representation he deserves...

[FredScuttle]

114. Yup, the lawyer's argument is a clusterfuck

basically, because the e-mail was so rancidly misogynistic and over-the-top, this kid couldn't have committed a rape because if he had, he would have toned it down and been more secretive....you know, like the 44 other players who've built up the wall of silence.

They need to drop the team players who were at the party in the middle of Harlem like Bruce Willis at the beginning of Die Hard With A Vengence...first one to spill the goods gets a free ride out of there.

[LostinVA]

149. His lawyer says the email proves he's INNOCENT

WTF?

[electron_blue]

119. my question is - why are Republicans defending the Dukes?

Why aren't they outraged, also?

Must everything come down to an "us" vs "them" issue. Do we no longer agree on anything?

[bettyellen]

121. protecting privleged white men seems to be a knee jerk reaction

with some poeple doesn't it?

[FredScuttle]

124. Fox News's core audience doesn't want to hear none of that

They'd like to believe that the wily black stripper used her wicked body to abuse the penises of those nice decent young white men. Anything to the contrary is like a turd in their punchbowl.

[electron_blue]

129. So... is this a racist issue to them, or a class issue to them?

I'd say it's a class issue. Perhaps the Repubs now see it as a duty to defend all rich people, no matter what accused of.

??

[bettyellen]

136. i think race is important too... she is harder for these assholes to

relate to. easier for them to dismiss because she couldn't be their daughter, niece, sister, etc.
i remember catching just enough of joe scarborough to hear him say they were covering that missing white cheerleader so much because obviously, she was someone everyone could "relate to" or feel like they "grew up with".
how fucking clueless is that? it's like a whole lot of people don't even exist as far as some people are concerned, let alone matter.

[FredScuttle]

141. Ask Rush

He called the victim a "ho". Tell me with a straight face that there's no racial code included with that comment.

[spanone]

126. Saw this the other night. Really some sick bastards.

Kinda like that little ol' frat party at Abu Gharib.

[enough already]

145. What do you expect from a bunch of rich white boys from the South?

Bushbots, no doubt

[LostinVA]

150. Most of these players are from the NE and MId-Atlantic states

I'm originally from NJ, btw, 17 years in NC, six in VA.

Duke dopes have a very superior Southern gentleman rep... but in all fairness, most of these guys are from Long Island or Northern NJ... where the racism still flows stroimng...