Last night, during a meeting with active Dems, I had an epiphany

[CornField]

I was at planning session for an upcoming fundraiser last night. Around the table with me were some of the most politically active women in our county. After we finished up business, we sat around discussing the news of the day, local political rumors and so-forth. One of the women there is also a former Oklahoman and she and I were asked to describe the mentality of the evangelicals.

We began to explain the differences -- how religion is much more in your face in the Bible belt, how the roads and bridges are falling apart but the churches keep building additions -- and the discussion turned to mega-churches. The other women at the table gave us the "deer in the headlights" look. They simply had no idea what a mega church was, much less that so many existed.

Let's be clear here: These are women who do a lion's share of the work for our local Democratic party. They plan fundraisers, they are office holders, they volunteer continually for campaigns, they solicit sponsorships, they work for labor organizations, they are educated. We aren't talking about a group of women who have their head buried in the sand on most political fronts, but they have absolutely no idea how to recognize the true face of the enemy. (And, before folks start getting their pants in wad, I don't think all Christians are the enemy of progress. I do, however, firmly believe that megachurches with their millions upon millions of dollars being stuffed into Republican candidate pockets, with their blatant disregard for the separation of church and state, with their muscular flexing in all political venues are most definitely one of the key (if not *the* key) problem with America today.)

When we began to explain that megachurches seat thousands upon thousands of people, that they use titantrons that put professional sporting arenas to shame, that their leaders dress in thousand dollar designer suits and that many of them occupy 100+ acre campuses (which aren't subject to taxes) the women laughed. They thought we were making it up.

People wonder why the Democratic Party doesn't seem to be making any headway in the world today. It isn't because we have a bad message or the wrong message. It's because our message isn't being preached and accompanied by a laser light show seven days a week. It's because we don't have centralized offices which can seat 10,000 (with additional seating rooms with video feeds), on-site childcare, in-house bookstores and volunteers to do everything from plumbing to carpentry. It isn't our message -- it's our lack of tax-free, networked sound systems, television air time and perpetual guilt/brainwashing.

Although I've known for some time that I'm in a fist-fight for my country, last night was the first time I truly understood that my allies are untrained, unskilled and totally unprepared for the upcoming battles.

[annabanana]

1. a very sobering assessment....

I suspect that many of these good ladies understand the media to be, at root, liberal; and haven't spent much time digging behind the headlines...

[Dunvegan]

2. Even worse...

CornField wrote:

"People wonder why the Democratic Party doesn't seem to be making any headway in the world today. It isn't because we have a bad message or the wrong message. It's because our message isn't being preached and accompanied by a laser light show seven days a week. It's because we don't have centralized offices which can seat 10,000 (with additional seating rooms with video feeds), on-site childcare, in-house bookstores and volunteers to do everything from plumbing to carpentry."

People wonder why the Democratic Party doesn't seem to be making any headway in the world today: Our leadership from the Congress down to local party leadership don't know what "WallyWorld America" IS.

Purposful ignorance, insular experience of America, and self-centeredness are not just for Republicans anymore.

So the cultural and diplomatic divide between Democrats and Republicans grows ever steadly from a sink hole into a "Grand Chasm."

Sad.

[KoKo]

11. sad....but some of us who are active in our party are seeing the same

thing.... They just don't get it in DC...many of our Dems. The most visible ones. I think some of our House Members who come from states where the Mega Churches are dominant do...but then they have no power.

[tonkatoy57]

3. You're in Iowa, right?

I'm kind of dumbfounded that people in Iowa, living so close to my home in Missouri, would be unaware of mega churches.

Don't they have cable? Don't they ever stop and listen to Gucci ed hucksters on the upper end of the cable dial?

Don't they realize that Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are templates for an army of low rent con men?

Wow.

[CornField]

4. Eastern Iowa

I'm roughly 3 hours out of Chicago -- 3 hours away from one of the largest megachurches in the nation.

[reichstag911]

17. "one of the largest megachurches in the nation"...

...Willow Creek?

[CornField]

19. I had actually forgotten about that one

I was thinking of Apostolic Church of God, but I bet Willow Creek in S. Barrington is larger. (And don't they also have 2-3 other 'satellite' churches in the area?)

[reichstag911]

39. Don't know...

...not an adherent, certainly. Only familiar with it because an ex of mine goes there (once suggested I attend) -- now believes in ID rather than evolution. Never the sharpest knife in the drawer; our conversations now are even more limited, you can imagine.

[lyonn]

69. "Can't fix stupid"

Someone told me the joke the cowboy on tv made about his ex. She could fix the body parts but ---- you can't fix stupid.

[knitter4democracy]

58. Vineyard, too.

Those places are scary. We watched a show on them in my senior colloquium class in college (small evangelical college), and the class was mixed, half for them, half against them. What suprised me was how many of the religion majors were against the entire concept of the megachurch.

[madokie]

41. Church on the move in Tulsa

[Cassandra]

38. I live in NYC, am not Christian...

and even I've heard of megachurches.

[katty]

80. in LaLaland & everyone knows about megachurches

i mean there are cable docs on these churches all the time, and those Dateline shows/knockoffs do teledocs on them-how can someone NOT know?

[bobbieinok]

83. was in IA in 80 election....I could not believe how naive most Iowans

were then about how politicians can/do use religion......they just accepted everything at face value......this was the election when the fundamentalists were out in full force against the IA ERA (IA had passed the ERA for an amendment to the federal constituion; then the national RW woke up and worked to demonize the ERA; there was a referendum on the IA ballot to rescind this approval)......

I grew up in OK and saw how politicians used religion.....there was a saying 'if you see a politician in church, you know there's an election coming up'

also, of course, how religion (fundamentalists) use politicians

[terip64]

5. I grew up in CT and now live in MI. I went to one of those megachurches.

It is truly unreal. My immediate reaction was that replaced stained glass with plasma TVs. I went to a Christmas show and it was the scariest thing I have ever done. It was right after the election and I still get chills when I think of it.

I knew then for the first time what we were up against. I also knew then that no one back home had any idea what was going on out here.

[yurbud]

9. what did they do at the Christmas show?

[terip64]

21. It was like a broadway show and it was the Easter story

They retold the story of the resurrection. It was about a man in modern times that ended up in the ER and while dying goes back in time to when Christ was being crucified. The man had been living a sinful life and of course was saved through this experience.

The scary part was how much money went into this. It was elaborate, extravagant and pagan like. There were people flying through the air with gold lame costumes. It was as if you were at Disney, that much money and that much attention to every single detail. There were plasma TVs every few hundred feet. The stage was totally equipped. There was a store in the lobby and I would say that it was the size of a Walmart. Last time I went by they were expanding it, no lie.

At the end of what they called the Christmas Extravaganza they passed around cards with pencils so you could sign up and be a part of their church.

We had been asked by someone that works with my husband. People were always trying to get us to go to their church out here. Not anymore because now when someone asks what church we go to, which I can't believe they do all the time, I answer that we go to The Church of the Holy Mattress because sleep is sacred to me. I laugh, they squirm, but they don't ask me to go to their church anymore.

[yurbud]

37. they'd squirm even more if you said it wasn't sleep you were doing

on your church on Sunday morning.


"That's when my husband and I celebrate the wonders of marital sex--would you like to come to OUR church?"

[Hekate]

72. If you have kids I suggest pre-emptive action bcs they'll be recruited

What a chilling experience you relate.

We had nothing so overwhelming happen to us here near Santa Barbara CA, but when my daughter was in middle school she was proselytized by fundamentalists. The fundies had a little "club" on campus, and money to order out for pizza, prayer group in the cafeteria before school in the morning, invitations to things after school...

It's as much about belonging to something as it is about belief -- and of course you get bonus points if it annoys (or scares) your parents. Fortunately my husband and I had joined the Unitarian Church a few years before that, and they have a very active youth program of their own, though nothing to rival the fundies. However, it's still a challenge because the fundamentalist kids are taught how to proselytize and recruit, and aside from the pizza they can lay a real guilt trip about what is and is not "real" religion.

You don't have to be a UU, of course, but it helps your kids if you've articulated your personal spiritual beliefs and have some community of your own to point out that you belong to.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the mega-churches -- I learned something tonight.

Hekate

[Montagnard]

6. Not much can be added to your analysis

One thing that could be mentioned is that all those who fill the 1,000(s) seats of the mega-churches are committed believers in their revealed truth. There is no question in their mind that they have the answer and there is no room for dissenting views. That is a powerful force to reckon with and it is a force that requires prostilization by believers thorugh any means, argument or force thru the police powers of the state.

[converted_democrat]

7. K&R.. on edit-

I grew up in a fundy household.. I've tried on several occasions to explain to people on this board what were up against, and even here I'm met with skepticism.. The only thing that I would add is that the mega churches are now getting together with the corporations, and they are going after common goals together.. The have many common goals, anti-abortion laws, discrimination laws, deregulation, privatization, and separation of church and state.. They have different reasoning behind why they want goals, but that doesn't matter, they're working together..

[CornField]

32. The Houston church has a McDonald's on site

In 2002 Brentwood Baptist in Houston opened a McDonald's, complete with drive-through, on their church campus. Young and elderly members of the congregation are employees and the restaurant maintains a "Christian" atmosphere. There is also a credit union and the group hosts more than 80 activities each evening, ranging from computer classes to children's theater to pat the Bible classes for 6-month-olds. (You can't make this stuff up.)

Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky has 16 basketball courts and a Cybex health club, free to churchgoers. The church is designed like a mall, with the sanctuary in the middle, hallways 20 feet wide. (Three years ago this church had an annual contribution in excess of $20 million.) The sheer size of this church inspired one congregant, Wilfred Greenlee, 79, to invent the Greenlee Communion Dispensing Machine (fills 40 communion cups in 2 seconds).

In Glendale, Arizona, the 12,000-member Community Church of Joy, has a school, conference center, bookstore and mortuary on its 187-acre property. A few years ago the congregation embarked on a $100 million campaign to build a housing development, a hotel, convention center, skate park and water-slide park.

Fellowship Church in Grapevine, Texas offers a 40,000-square-foot youth center with a climbing wall and video arcade and a lake to encourage father-son bass fishing.

Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas has a youth center which includes 15 ball fields, a 1950's-style diner and a fitness center, as well as classrooms and a 7,000-seat sanctuary. It's "Main Street" theme also includes a $19 million school, coffee shop, food court, student ministry center, youth building, an outdoor prayer walk, a chapel and an indoor commons.

The most ambitious, however, has to be Community Church of Joy in suburban Phoenix. It is basically a town within a town, allowing meembers to live on campus and even be buried there. Other than work and grocery stores, there is little reason for congregants to leave the property. The Olympic-size aquatic center boasts a laser light show, depicting Jonah and the whale and David and Goliath.

[Ignis]

51. Next up: Burger God (a la Monkeybone).

In Glendale, Arizona, the 12,000-member Community Church of Joy, has a school, conference center, bookstore and mortuary on its 187-acre property. A few years ago the congregation embarked on a $100 million campaign to build a housing development, a hotel, convention center, skate park and water-slide park.

Yes, but is it a holy-water-slide park? :)

Well, at least Rabbi Yeshua drove the money changers from the Temple once. Here's hoping he returns to do it again...and starts with these obscene mega-churches!

[Shakespeare]

84. Sometimes I wonder if.....

....the world wouldn't be better off if WE got bombed into obscurity. No, I'm not advocating that, but geez....

[Blue_Roses]

88. The pastor at Prestonwood is a BIG BUSH supporter!

Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano, Texas has a youth center which includes 15 ball fields, a 1950's-style diner and a fitness center, as well as classrooms and a 7,000-seat sanctuary. It's "Main Street" theme also includes a $19 million school, coffee shop, food court, student ministry center, youth building, an outdoor prayer walk, a chapel and an indoor commons.



http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=TX&last=graham&first=jack

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. You do mean, of course,

the unification of chuch and state. Tear down that wall!

[converted_democrat]

40. Yep, that's what I meant.. I have a tendency to state things from my angle

instead of the party I'm referring to.. I call it separation of church and state, because I think they should be separate.. They want to wall torn down..

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. It's the last part that is most important

on-site childcare, in-house bookstores and volunteers to do everything from plumbing to carpentry.

Let me ask you a stupid question. Tell me, when was the last time you saw Unions providing day care? When was the last time you saw NOW providing family services? The truth of the matter is that the only time you see our non-party organizations is when they're picketing or protesting. The Evangelists protest just as much, if not more than our people do, but you don't associate them with protests - you associate them with megachurches that provide basic human services to people nearly free of charge.

Christians learned from thousands of years of practice that the best way to sell your message is to do it while you're helping them do day-to-day things. Why do you think there are missionaries? Better question - why do missionaries go mostly to Africa and Asia instead of Central America? Because Central Americans are already Christians.

[KoKo]

13. These Mega Churches are getting funding from folks who could care

less about Christian values. I'm a mainstream Christian and our churches can barely afford to pay for our Sunday School books. We are constantly begging for money.

How is it that these Mega Churches have sprung up everywhere in the last ten years (most of them in the last five) and they never seem to need to wait years for the "buiding fund?" Just put up a "Big Box" that somehow there poor and mainly urban populations can afford and put on the "Lights and Whizzers Show." You can't do all that without "outside funding."

[renate]

16. This thread has a great example of what you're talking about--

--how the megachurches don't care about Christian values:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x851108

[knitter4democracy]

59. They start small.

They start in school gyms or in leased retail space with a very charismatic preacher. He quickly builds up his flock, usually by doing what the guy in Colorado did--small connected groups like a pyramid scheme. Each small group has a connecting theme (new family, young kids, singles, stuff like that) and a leader. That leader reports to someone higher up who reports to the pastor or a pastoral board.

Because they give you the family you need and the services you need, you are much easier to get money out of. Then, on top of it, they often have a sermon right before the offering reminding you of the need for tithe, which is 10% of your takehome pay, and the need to go above and beyond that. That sermon isn't the real sermon, that's later by the charismatic preacher or an evangelist travelling through the churches and often focuses on guilt somehow. You feel like this is your family, so you have to give more.

They don't need outside funding--they get enough from their own. For those of us in other churches, it's clear that we don't get that kind of money. My hubby and I are converts to the Eastern Orthodox Church, but we grew up in the Church of the Nazarene, a Weslyan-based evangelical church, so we still tithe. It's not unusual for us to be the only family in our church that tithes. In fact, many I've talked with don't even know what the word means let alone understand the concept.

[CornField]

15. This has been my bone of contention forever

My father was a union guy. When he was hurt on the job, guess who helped our family? Yes, the church ladies brought in dinners and so-forth. The people who actually helped us through that time, however, were the union members. I don't remember a day when one of them didn't drop by the house, offer to help with something or just look around for something that needed to be done. They made sure my mother could pay our bills -- even went so far as to help her find a temporary job and then provide rides to school for my siblings and I so she could work.

Our unions are no longer the power houses they use to be because they no longer fulfill the functions they use to. Democrats formerly had a network which could reach into almost every American household. Shame on us for not nuturing that relationship and keeping it healthy.

[Canuckistanian]

20. Good point - I sometimes wonder how energies are spent

Picketing. Protesting. On-line petitions. Paper petitions. Marches. Boycotts.

What good is ultimately done by pouring all your time into these activites? You're only going to be ignored by the media, written off as "extremists" by politicians and generally pigeonholed and marginalized. It worked in the 60's, but just barely. Not today.

These are ultimately negative activities - you're just reacting defensively.

There needs to be some kind of real, tangible visibility, some indication that you walk the walk, that you care and can show that you care, where it counts.

Do something good for your community, hold education seminars, get involved in schools. Show up for town meetings informed and loaded for bear when you're trying to defeat something.

INFORM people about WHY something is bad, don't just denounce it. Then show them how to do it properly.

But make sure everyone knows you're a progressive and you're fighting for the people, not some nebulous outside organization.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

28. I'm not even completely sure protests worked in the 60's at all.

After all, how many years of protest occurred before they finally pulled the plug on Vietnam? :shrug:

I think you're absolutely right though.

[Inland]

63. Where are the liberal social institutions?

What compares to a church? Where else to people with common values gather every week? Schools, I guess, until high school. Corporations, I guess.

It's got nothing to do with megachurches. Churches are powerful politically because they are the last nonprofit organizations standing.

[lyonn]

70. It's social events that draw a crowd

Maybe a matter of belonging. They love parades. Throw in something they can believe in along with a psychic high and you got a party.

[sandnsea]

73. Head Start, Family Planning, WIC, and on and on and on

Those groups you mentioned helped get the services that people use every single day, and don't have to go to church to get. The only thing people forget is why they have them in the first place. And now, with faith based funding, people are going to take all of OUR hard fought victories and start associating them with Christianity and the right wing. Oh, and work in foreign countries? There's way more non-relgious groups than Christian groups.

Really, your argument just doesn't hold water at all. If people believe what you're saying, it's because we aren't reminding them of what we've done and do.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

77. Head Start and Family Planning aren't organizing protests.

To say my argument doesn't hold water, you have to understand it first.

[sandnsea]

78. It's the change the protests created

I understand your argument, it doesn't hold water. The programs we have are because unions and groups like NOW held rallies and pounded Congress to get them.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

79. No, you're still not understanding my argument.

Does anyone know those groups were founded by the unions or NOW? NO. They do not. They do not have their names on them. All they know our organizations for are picketing and protesting. I'm in no way saying those groups haven't done anything - hell, they already DO a lot of the things I'm talking about. The problem is that there's absolutely no PR behind it, and so that's what we're associated with.

[sandnsea]

82. PR behind it - I agree

But you're first post started by saying when has a union or NOW provided day care, etc; implying that liberal groups aren't involved in the day to day business of people's lives. If that's not what you meant, fine.

When the right created their hate radio, direct mail, church and rural strategy; we created a network of liberal activist groups. From NOW to Sierra Club to unions to NAACP, etc. Perhaps the people in charge no longer understand that part of their mission is to connect those dots, they are supposed to be our grassroots. A candidate isn't supposed to have to even worry about their support, cater to them, give them x number of hugs and kisses. They're supposed to look at the candidate's record and generate the support themselves. That was supposed to be our model for winning elections. Somewhere along the line, the model fell completely apart. It's one thing when you've got a candidate like Casey, another when it's Kerry. It didn't work for either one. So yeah, the PR isn't being done and we're really suffering from it. And more and more, when these groups do make the news, they distort views of both parties because they think it makes them more relevant. So yeah, nobody equates the local women's shelter with NOW, and the mega-churches are walking right in and becoming the face of the community helper.

[Armstead]

10. Good post

Living in a rural section of a Blue State, I have to admit that I have no concept of what the mega Churches are like.

Here, church still means a congregation of a few hundred people and a minister who actually knows the names of his or her parishioners. And they are generally apolitical.

[Gildor Inglorion]

22. You're lucky...here in REDDEST Mississippi

church means a congregation of a few dozen people and a minister who actually knows the names of his or her parishioners. And they are political as hell. Mention separation of church and state, and you get blank stares..."huh?"

[Armstead]

26. We do have some "political" churches too

But they range from ultra-lefties at the Unitarian Church to a few small fundamentalist right wing churches.

What's important here, though, is that the majority of churches have members who range from liberal to conservative. The ones that are more political are merely one part of a larger and more diverse fabric that actually reeflects the diversity of politics.

[Chimichurri]

12. the falling apart bridges while mega churches expand is precisely

why the evangelicals have so much power over their flock.

Being one of those women who had no idea the breadth of the mega-church phenomena til recently, I was curious to understand it more. What I've discovered is that these megachurches are providing the ministries gov't and unions used to provide for communities. They offer jobs and other necessities to entire towns that companies and gov't no longer provide. This has solidified the faithful's loyalty to many of these churches but on a massive scale. In addition, I believe, they are ill informed on issues by design - it's easier to frame the rhetoric that way.

This is a huge problem for
dems because republicans have a stranglehold on the evangelical snake oil salesmen. Not all the faithful fall into this category, and I find this behaviour abhorrent but it's a sad reality.

I agree with you that we should get to understand this better because it is a force that has become dangerous not only to our party but to our democracy. The biggest threat we face is not the people who put their faith in their churches but by the charlatans who use the power of their belief for their own agenda.

[laundry_queen]

43. When people have every need taken care of by the church

then they see no reason why the gov't needs programs to help. You have no idea how many times I've seen (on various message boards) someone posting that they wish they had help, either for childcare, or someone to watch their house while their kid is in the hospital, or to help with chores while their dh is away, and they mention they are at their breaking point and someone, obviously a fundie, asks, "What about your church? Just call your church and someone there should be able to help you. My church sent someone asap to help out when the quads were born (or something)" Without fail someone always says something similar. They just don't get that not all churches rush someone over to help you.
Another thing: I've also run into a few fundies who tithe way over the 10%. Most are already well off. They truly believe 100% of their tithing is going to charitable causes. Somehow the $2000 suits, plasma screens and laser light show don't impress on them.
I just don't get it, I don't, but at least I'm aware of it.
Perhaps we should start infiltrating these mega churches. Know thy (thine?) enemy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. And they flourish in our soulless, center-less suburbs

where all the traditional community ties are absent.

Suburbanization is the best thing that ever happened to the Republican Party.

[Pacifist Patriot]

14. And that so many people are unaware of the power of...

the megachurch pulpit.

[Divernan]

18. We could cut property taxes in 1/2, w/ 1% tax on such "non-profits"

Here in Western Pa, with an extremely high percentage of fixed income senior citizen homeowners, the property taxes are extremely burdensome. A Dem. candidate for state House of Representatives, Shawn Flaherty, (a lawyer who for 20 some years has specialized in getting property tax relief for individual homeowners) has worked out the numbers that if "non-profits" were taxed just ONE percent, we could cut our property taxes in half!

He would not include the church "propers", i.e., the places where people actually attend services, but all the auxiliary holdings. Here the big non-profits are the private colleges and universities, and particularly the medical centers. UPMC (a multi-location hospital/medical center operation, even buys private homes and lets its doctors live there rent free. In one township, Shaler, more than 50% of the properties are off the tax roles because they are owned by "non-profits". And make no mistake, a "non-profit" is simply an organization which has no stockholders, but there are often huge profits, which go to the top executives.

There aren't any megachurches in Allegheny County(Pittsburgh), but there is an Assembly of God megachurch in a neighboring county, Butler. People who want to join must show their tax returns to the minister and promise to tithe 10% of their income. Local stories about this church include:
(1) A three year old got sick and threw up during a service. The minister started shouting about how the devil was coming out of the child's mouth;
(2) A 30-something male church member died and his family wanted him laid out at the church. The minister said OK, as long as any gifts given to the family, whether cash or food, were turned over to the church.
(3) The minister reamed out the paper boy who delivered papers to the minister's house, because the only day the kid could collect money was Sunday and this was a violation of the Sabbath. However same minister spent Sunday afternoons and evenings calling church members to pressure them to invest with a friend of his.

[BooScout]

23. It's also because......

The vast majority of America is ignorant as hell when it comes to anything much outside their own little world. Sorry but it's true.

[Neil Lisst]

24. epiphanies epiph me off

no they don't, but I just wanted to say that

[mnhtnbb]

25. Excellent post

I lived in NE and MO for 12 years when the megachurches were just getting started and sang in the church choir when I lived in MO (Disciples of Christ)

The appeal of the megachurches is to people who don't want to think. The answers are provided in a very entertaining way. It's brainwashing
on a weekly (or more) basis. Plus, how can so many people be wrong?
It appeals to people who want to fit in, be liked, and are unable
to handle ambiguity.

What is chilling about your post, is the similarity to the rise of fascism in Germany. The megachurches in this country are growing a new generation of brownshirts--American style. It's very, very, scary and one of the reasons that I'm not optimistic about the 06 or 08 elections.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but in case I'm not, we're building a house in Panama--foundation gets poured next week. Maybe retirement home, maybe vacation home, or just maybe, the escape from a totalitarian, theocratic USA.

[Mabus]

52. I agree and excellent points. n/t

[glitch]

27. The same thing happens when you try and discuss election machine fraud.

A few people get it, the rest go blank.

[McCamy Taylor]

45. Ooops wrong spot

[mopinko]

29. megachurches- preaching the gospel of greed

the crux of this movement is that the rich are blessed, and the blessed get rich. do you wonder how they grow so fast?

[CornField]

35. I don't think you get the whole picture

While it is true that the highest leadership in the megachurches pull down the bucks, it isn't so for the congregants. (Although there is a prevailing attitude that the leadership is so wealthy because God has made it so -- totally ignoring how much is being placed in the donation plates.)

I think the real issue here is the vicious circle. People are told that the world is against them. People are told the world isn't safe for them or especially for their children. People seek out others who believe as they do because they are afraid of "the world." People here about places where large groups of Christians can pretty much live their lives outside of "the world" and they head on over. No more need to worry... no more need to care... no more need to think.

I'd like to expand on this more, but I need to run out for an appointment. Check my post above (number 37?) about the Houston church having a McDonald's. It's an eye opener if you don't know what a megachurch is and does for its congregation.

[knitter4democracy]

60. Prosperity Theology is part of it.

You're right about that, but it's more than that.

People go to these churches because they need to. They're damaged, they're broken, and they're tired of feeling disconnected. The church takes care of them, their kids, and gives them a family that seems healthier than any other family they've ever known. On top of that, it gives them hope that their lives might get better and then keeps them there by making them feel guilty that they don't give enough, work hard enough, pray enough, and tithe enough.

I used to be an evangelical. We often talked about it at our college, an evangelical Christian college.

[Festivito]

30. Yes, yes, yes. And swing voters get a dose of code words at election time.

Imagine, yourself as a TV listener, radio in the car, talking to friends about their families on the phone.

You don't know anything about politics.

It's all so confusing. But, in church, it's clear. What is the minister goaded into talking about just before the election? All the commercials talking about abortions, gays, and maybe a war on Christians...

The minister talks about CURRENT ISSUES gays, abortions, ... and you, the non-involved, i.e. swing-voter, has an EASY CHOICE.

Think.

This is how it works. We have to make inroads into churches, not bark atheism and separation.

Churches need to include sermons on caring for people WITH their stance on abortions and gays. Balance would be fine. We need to think.

We can BOTH make inroads AND build a wall of separation.

[peacetalksforall]

31. They help each other for free? But get hysterical about socialism?

They allow no thought or rules other than their church? But rant against cults?

[PublicWrath]

33. If you want your hair to Stand on End.....no pomade necessary...

Go to theocracywatch.org and watch "The Rise of Dominionism".

[ChairmanAgnostic]

34. Just finished American Theocracy. You are RIGHT ON POINT!

It is not that we are untrained, but that our enemy clothes itself in patriotic clothing and claims our high ground - and the gullible believe them. Our enemy is organized religion. The closed minded, anti-intellectual and evil brain-washing which corrodes our reliance on logic, science, study and effort, id destroying our country. Stem cells, AIDS, NIH funding, - this is all the fault of the GOP and unfortunately, the fault of the spineless dems who don't wish to offend anyone while our rights, our future and our nation is being destroyed before our very eyes.


If there is a problem, pray.
If the problem gets worse, you did not pray hard enough.
If the problem goes away, your prayers were answered.

BULLSHIT.

[louis-t]

44. My favorite rant about praying...

Fundies that say "we gonna pray on it" is my biggest pet peeve. So, they pray, and pray, and squint their eyes harder, pass a kidney stone, pray some more, and any little thought that enters their peanut-sized Republican brains must be God talking to them. "What? Kill who?"

[me b zola]

71. Tom Delay said he did a lot of praying about his problems...

...then his supporters went to a Dem press conference and assaulted a woman.

I think that they do more preying than they do praying.

[bobbieinok]

85. organized fundamentalist religion

[Tsiyu]

42. Just because Fundies sacrifice their souls to gleaming edifices

doesn't mean that they are organized, efficient or skilled.


Organization means you can assess priorities. These people's main priority is being "accepted" by the Church elite. Nowhere in the tenets of their faith is that shown as an acceptable priority.

If they followed their faith, their priorities would be: feeding the poor, visiting the sick and imprisoned and caring for widows and orphans.

Who does that work now? Who fights for the poor now? Are they ineffective because they can't organize, or are they (by "they" I mean the ones advocating and working for the poor and the homeless and the Vet and the addict and the imprisoned) stymied by lack of federal funding (the federal funds are being channeled to the Fundies) and legislative support?

Efficiency means getting the job done. They are getting thieves and perverts elected in the name of Jeebus, and a whole lot of women feel "redeemed" because they give up family and career time to "give to the church." Not an efficient exchange for their own lives, and society suffers when their kids go bad.

Before long, many of the more moderate members of these palaces will grow disillusioned and the bulk of these "models of pious efficency" will be sold to the highest bidder. Think about it: these people are like parasites. When the contributions dry up, so does their dedication.

How efficient is a system that will be dead in a decade or so?

And Skilled? Holy, moly. These are the clueless, the easily led. They are a minority.

Here's a message especially for you: Most Americans know without the laser light show. Most Americans are pissed. We don't like being lied to repeatedly and being screwed out of our futures by violent, greedy people.

So take heart. We don't need to emulate those goons and their shiny cult compounds. We already have the nation behind us.

[CornField]

47. Tulips and Roses all around, eh?

I believe it to be quite dangerous to underestimate the true power the megachurches have, not only within their own congregations, but within their communities. Not only are they tax-exempt, but they are now profiting from our tax dollars. They are highly intent on creating their own isolated communities while they continue to chip away at our Constitution and Bill of Rights. In their world, there is no other option.

Without a doubt they are organized.
Without a doubt they are efficient.
Without a doubt they are becoming more and more skilled at what they do.

As for the message you delivered especially to me? I heard very similar prior to the fiasco of November 2004. Most Americans do not know -- don't even want to know -- exactly where the evangelical leadership plans to take this nation.

[Tsiyu]

55. It is my firm belief that we won in 2004

So people were telling you right, IMHO. Our votes were stolen and cheated away from us.

I don't underestimate their current power, but I predict it will wane and many will leave these mega-churches, even if they only trickle away bit by bit.

For example, if Dems make birth control a wedge issue, how can any moderate stand with a church that says, "Deny access to birth control" What happened to less government? What happenned to science and the protection of public health? Only fanatics will remain when all is said and done.

And I for one do not want to model myself after their system.


Most decent people can't live with all the hypocrisy and begin to see the light after a time.

[KittyWampus]

48. Wouldn't it be a grand talkingpoint? Democrats don't need mega-churches

cause our faith in Humanity comes from inside.

[Tsiyu]

56. Nice!

we don't need a church to tell us to help others

:applause:

[bobbieinok]

86. fundamentalists would say 'that's your PROBLEM--you have faith in

humanity NOT God'

[Inland]

64. Doesn't mean they are organized, efficient or skilled.

It just means they meet every week, get to know each other, and share values.

And that ain't small potatoes, politically.

[McCamy Taylor]

46. Most Americans do not go to Mega-Church. It aint our style.

[CornField]

50. roughly 6 million people in megachurches each Sunday

and that's only if you define megachurches as facilities with average congregation attendance of at least 2,000 people. If you look at the entire American population:

[TayTay]

49. They have a huge money influence on national politics

Sigh! Thanks for posting this.

[TexasThoughtCriminal]

53. megachurches also provide community in new suburbs

When these flashy churches pop up in newly growing suburbs, they provide an instant community in a time when most people don't know their next door neighbors. We need a liberal alternative to a community and sense of belonging that people ache for.

[Mabus]

54. There are 1,337 megachurches in the US

according to the Hartford Seminary's Hartford Institute for Religion Research website. http://hirr.hartsem.edu/default.html

A list of the 1,337 megachurches can be found here: http://hirr.hartsem.edu/org/faith_megachurches_database_denom.html

Here's some information concerning where the megachurches are located in the US and Canada.

Regional Distribution:

REGION PERCENT

NorthEast 6
South 48
NorthCentral 20
West 25


9 Regional Divisions:

DIVISION PERCENT
New England 1
Mid Atlantic 6
South Atlantic 23
East South Central 7
West South Central 18
East North Central 14
West North Central 6
Mountain 5
Pacific 19
Canada 1

Attendance:

Average attendance of all megachurches 3612 persons
Median attendance of all megachurches 2746 persons


SIZE GROUPING PERCENT
2000 to 2999 53.8
3000 to 3999 19.1
4000 to 4999 11.1
5000 to 9999 12.0
10,000 or more 4.0

1210 churches - total average weekly attendance = 4,374,400 people http://hirr.hartsem.edu/org/megastoday2005_profile.html

[tomreedtoon]

57. Facing the electronic age with a hand-crank telephone.

I commented in another thread about how some poor DU member taped Howard Dean with a handheld camera - possibly a cell phone with built in video camera. Dean was great on the stump, but the video wasn't. It was shaky, awkward, with heads getting in the way. But it was the best that could be done...because the Democratic Party didn't have a good video camera and a pro photographer accompanying the event.

If it was the Republican chairman there, you can be certain there'd be three cameras there...two on the candidate, one scanning the crowd for people who were applauding (admittedly rare these days) and an editor with an editing computer to put the whole thing together into a nice package for distribution to TV stations and news cable channels.

And the local Baptist church, which dominates the lives of its parishoners from pre-school to nursing home, not only has Jumbotrons to show its service. Its own videographers record and edit its service for the local TV station to broadcst; at one time they were going to own their own low-power TV station. They have an orchestra pit on an elevator that raises and lowers during the service. (And seating for a 15-piece orchestra.)

They even have a stage behind the Jumbotron and a screen that raises into the ceiling, so that in the Easter service, Jesus can appear - a Jesus designed like a stiltwalker, with long robes flowing in a fan's breeze. I call it the "circus Jesus."

And the only promotion the Democratic Party has between elections is when one of their people speak in the local "free" newspaper weekly, amidst ads for gay and lesbian services and tattoo parlors. Forget the hand-crank telephone - the Democrats are gaining publicity like a guy walking around wearing a sandwich board, with the slogan written in Chinese.

[CornField]

61. I agree with you completely

We've got to do better.

[Inland]

62. Now go to the R&T forum and watch all religious get bashed

and you can realize what a dumbfuck idea THAT is. It's not just the rise of the mega church, unfortunately.There aren't any liberal institutions left. Unions, gone. Small town government, gone. Universities, gotta make the grades or you'll never get out of debt. Heck, people don't even get out of the house anymore.

Except for churches. Every week, you see people with some of the same basic values and interests. It's got nothing to do with mega churches, tax exemption, any of that. Religion is a natural building block for political attitudes and social ties.

So the DU tactic is to tell all the religious to fuck off and go pray to their imaginary sky fairy, and then wonder again why we lose Kansas.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

65. I'm truly torn as to how to respond to your post...

...When you said

It's not just the rise of the mega church, unfortunately. There aren't any liberal institutions left. Unions, gone. Small town government, gone. Universities, gotta make the grades or you'll never get out of debt. Heck, people don't even get out of the house anymore. Except for churches. Every week, you see people with some of the same basic values and interests. It's got nothing to do with mega churches, tax exemption, any of that."

I wanted to applaud you for your insight into how religion has filled the void for some people when other things have disappeared. Then you wrote:

Religion is a natural building block for political attitudes and social ties.

So the DU tactic is to tell all the religious to fuck off and go pray to their imaginary sky fairy, and then wonder again why we lose Kansas.

This seems to state that religion is somehow better anything else as being a "natural building block for political attitudes and social ties." I'm a non-Theist, so I naturally take exception to that super-natural statement. Unlike you, I don't claim to speak for the "DU tactic", if such a beast even exists.

So, is your position:
1) that Religion is filling a gap where something else should be;
2) that Religion is the best meme to help people form opinions; or
3) I really didn't get what you were saying?

PS: I once made an ignorant statement about Kansas (re: progressiveness vs. the Kansas School Board's regressive decision regarding "Intelligent Design") and was justifiably smacked up the side of my head for my ignorance about Kansas by DU's own Mabus. I hope that she has the energy to educate you on Kansas in a similar way.

[Inland]

66. "better than anything else"

I didn't say that. I did say that there ISN'T much else. I would say the same thing about barn raising, about the volunteer fire department.....Fuck, I would say the same thing about the feed store in a farm town. I DID say the same thing about the Union Hall. All those places and activities YOU DON'T FIND ANYMORE. If you don't understand that, you've missed both my point and the power of religious institutions still. Religion is weaker. People don't believe, people don't follow, and you know what? Churches win by default.

"Heck, people don't even get out of the house anymore. Except for churches. Every week, you see people with some of the same basic values and interests." What I said involves the supernatural as much as The Grange and less than the Masons.

Hells bells.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

67. Thanks, that's what I thought you meant. Good post!

Sorry about the attack, but I couldn't reconcile the first part of your post with the second part. You've clarified it perfectly now. :thumbsup:

However, let's not bring the Masons into the discussion, as DU doesn't have a "smilie" for a goat, a pant's leg or an apron.

{Edited to add more words...}

[Ladyhawk]

68. Yeah, I don't know where to go to find "community."

Tonight I played background piano at the "Hall of Fame Awards" at the local community college. As I listened to the winners talking about "community" and "bringing people together" I felt really sad because I don't feel like I'm a part of this community at all. There are too many damn fundies.

My mother's church is turning into the closest thing we have to a megachurch. It worries me. A lot of the kids I attend classes with have been home schooled by their fundy parents. That worries me, too. They have no clue about a different way to think and I don't think the college helps that much...sigh. Some of the profs are cool, but others are fundies.

I just can't feel a "sense of community" with fundies.

Currently, I'm weirded out by dogma. Even the local peace club seems a bit dogmatic when it comes to some things and (unfortunately) it's the lefty Christians who seem the most dogmatic. I'm tired of religious people telling me how to think.

I am isolated. There is no sense of community for me. And no, I won't go to a church to find a sense of community. Ladyhawk don't play that.

[seabeyond]

74. i have lived here 15 years. since about 1999 i have been around the

fundamentalists. i have a tough time understanding the hugeness of it. i still am shocked and surprised as i am reminded of their thinking process. spring of 2004 with campaign stirring and the movie passion coming out was a huge lesson for me. i agree with you. unless you are in it, i dont think many can truly grasp the reality for these people.

[CornField]

75. Thanks to all thread participants -- but I hope the discussion isn't over

It is sometimes difficult to make an observation, to state a belief, to point to a problem when you are one in such a very large group. It's also very hard, at times, to keep your head about you when others are discussing your belief system in not the most flattering terms.

Thanks to all of you for helping provide a non-threatening and well-formed discussion on this topic. I think it is so very important to what we are doing and I'm both shocked and pleased that so many of us have left on our own thought processes and pulled into the same station: All of us with similar values need to pull together and provide a sense of community. We all need to feel that we matter and that we belong.

I truly look forward to future discussions on how we -- as the grassroots of the Democratic Party -- can help form, build and nurture those relationships.

Peace.

[bush_is_wacko]

81. Got several here in Colorado too. They have built covered bridges over

major roadways so their parishioners can cross from one city block to another without ever having to intermingle with us lowlife non-denominational/Liberal types. I have recently discovered they also seem to have a hold on all the small business' surrounding the area. Yes folks, our own mini-Utah right here in good ol' Colorado.

Edited for spelling/typing errors

[Raksha]

87. CornField, thank you for posting this. I learned a lot from this thread.

It was real eye-opener when I first read it last night. Until then, I was just like the women you describe at your planning session. I had only heard the WORD "megachurch" but didn't actually have a clue about the reality it represents, especially not the social dynamics involved. I thought it simply meant "a big church." Now I knew they were well-funded and had such amenities as on-site child care centers, but even more modest churches have those. I had no idea they fulfilled a need for what I can only call "instant community," or that they are a partial replacement (albeit for brainwashed members only) for the very social services they deplore when the provider is the federal government.

You are so right that the progressive community has absolutely NOTHING comparable, although we did at one time. I am of Eastern European Jewish descent, second-generation on my father's side, third-generation on my mother's. For some reason, your post made me "remember" the so-called "Settlement Houses" that existed in New York in the 1920s and 1930s for the purpose of helping new immigrants assimilate. I put the word "remember" in quotation marks because even in my childhood they were already a thing of the past, although I remember my mother telling me about them. They didn't have all the fancy bells and whistles of the megachurches, but they served the same purpose. And then of course there were the unions and union halls, now just a shadow of their former selves.

I'm going to bookmark this thread, print out your OP and do some serious thinking on this subject. Thanks again for what I can only call a "consciousness-raising" post!