Whoa: Gospel of Judas uncovered after 1,700 years

[WilliamPitt]

Nothing to do with Libby and Bush, but this is kind of epic:

'Gospel of Judas' Surfaces After 1,700 Years
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD and LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: April 6, 2006

An early Christian manuscript, including the only known text of what is known as the Gospel of Judas, has surfaced after 1,700 years. The text gives new insights into the relationship of Jesus and the disciple who betrayed him, scholars reported today. In this version, Jesus asked Judas, as a close friend, to sell him out to the authorities, telling Judas he will "exceed" the other disciples by doing so.

Though some theologians have hypothesized this, scholars who have studied the new-found text said, this is the first time an ancient document defends the idea.

The discovery in the desert of Egypt of the leather-bound papyrus manuscript, and now its translation, was announced by the National Geographic Society at a news conference in Washington. The 26-page Judas text is said to be a copy in Coptic, made around A. D. 300, of the original Gospel of Judas, written in Greek the century before.

Terry Garcia, an executive vice president of the geographic society, said the manuscript, or codex, is considered by scholars and scientists to be the most significant ancient, nonbiblical text to be found in the past 60 years.

"The codex has been authenticated as a genuine work of ancient Christian apocryphal literature," Mr. Garcia said, citing extensive tests of radiocarbon dating, ink analysis and multispectral imaging and studies of the script and linguistic style. The ink, for example, was consistent with ink of that era, and there was no evidence of multiple rewriting.

"This is absolutely typical of ancient Coptic manuscripts," said Stephen Emmel, professor of Coptic studies at the University of Munster in Germany. "I am completely convinced."

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/06/science/06cnd-judas.html?hp&ex=1144382400&en=d58e9f87384d906d&ei=5094&partner=homepage

...Nikos Katzanzakis was right...

[stop the bleeding]

1. Very, very cool - thank you

nominated!

[papau]

35. I agree - nominated - albeit the NYT says nothing new- discussed in 180 CE

<snip>Scholars say that they have long been on the lookout for the Gospel of Judas because of a reference to what was probably an early version of it in a text called Against Heresies, written by Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, about the year 180.

Irenaeus was a hunter of heretics, and no friend of the Gnostics. He wrote, "They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."<snip>

<snip>At least one scholar said the new manuscript does not contain anything dramatic that would change or undermine traditional understanding of the Bible. James M. Robinson, a retired professor of Coptic studies at Claremont Graduate University, was the general editor of the English edition of the Nag Hammadi library, a collection of Gnostic documents discovered in Egypt in 1945. <snip>

[MissB]

2. And for some reason, I really liked ABC's homepage pic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x860286

[in_cog_ni_to]

Did you get a good look at the HATEFUL face the Emperor is wearing?

PURE EVIL.

[Catherine Vincent]

11. LOL!

The pic they chose of Bush is priceless!

[MissB]

16. The pictures the media chooses say alot about

their current view on that person.

[xultar]

18. And within those reports was the info on Valerie Plame. We can't

stress that enough. Because Joe Wilson's reports were used to try and justify war with Iraq and Iraq intelligence was leaked.

BEAUTIFUL!!!

[skooooo]

3. Is it available on Amazon yet?

Can't wait!

[Beelzebud]

4. More 1700 year old fiction to feed fundimentalism.

If they find Frank Herbert's Dune in 1000 years from now, it will be amusing to see the religion that spawns from it.

[WilliamPitt]

6. Um

The text, if real, torpedoes a central theme of the Jesus story: the betrayal by Judas.

Did you even read this?

[MissB]

7. I'm guessing it is just a knee-jerk reaction

:rofl:

I find the whole story most fascinating. But then again, I'm an atheist.

[McCamy Taylor]

23. Even an atheist can find religion interesting as anthropology.

[Beelzebud]

8. Key words: "if real". It's all fiction.

So this is a new part of an old fictional story. Little has changed for me.

The zealots won't care. They ignore the Book of Thomas as well, because it doesn't fit the mold of what they want to hear.

Myself, I don't care about any of it. It's just 2000 year old fictional material.

[Richard D]

17. Interesting . . .

. . . you are so positive it's fiction (though I agree about Dune or even LOTR if discovered by post-apocalyptic cockroach archaeologists in a few tens of thousands of years).

[ThomCat]

36. Has there ever been any shred of historical or

anthropological evidence that Jesus actually existed?

My understanding is that there is proof of the apostles, but none for Jesus. And major elements of his story contradict historical facts. (Like, the Roman census counted where people lived, not where they were born, so people were not traveling to their places of birth to be counted.)

[Blue_In_AK]

64. I believe the Jewish historian Josephus

mentions Jesus in his writings of the time, or so I've heard. I've never read those works myself.

[Chemical Bill]

70. "Proof" is stretching it but...

I'm reading an interesting book by Graham Phillips called "The Virgin Mary Conspiracy". He cites historical references to suggest that Jesus was the grandson of Herod, and Mary was Herod's DIL when Herod had his son (Mary's first husband) murdered. Fun stuff.

Bill

[More Than A Feeling]

20. No appreciation for history, I guess.

Even with your premise, it's sad that you so easily discount the chance to recover a piece of the past that had been lost for so long.

[Beelzebud]

21. It's a copy of an "original document".

I have no appreciation for religious bullshit.

[aquart]

19. Early Christianity was customized for different locales.

And what do you mean, "if the text is real"? It was written hundreds of years after the events of Jesus' life. The earliest gospel is 40 years after the events according to scholars. This is a commentary written to a particular point of view: the author's. Who could not have been Judas himself. It is NOT an eyewitness news account.

Some areas required the sacrificial god to be consenting to his sacrifice. All this does is up that consent.

Or it could have been written to torpedo a growing cult.

The excitement over this is just plain silly.

[BlooInBloo]

24. (shrug) fiction debunking fiction....

... replacing with a NEWER, a BETTER fiction. Yay. I can get that on tv.

EDIT: Inserted sentence to drive the point home.

[Beelzebud]

27. exactly..

[ChairmanAgnostic]

58. you got that right.

but it will be entertaining to watch the fundies explode when they find out their inerrant instruction manual is due for a tune up.

[Windy]

73. Just like the other coptic gospels, they won't buy it.

I've read the gospel of thomas...supposedly jesus' own words... he says that god is within you and all around you... he also has a sense of humor in the text. I've also read the gospel of Mary Magdelene, etc... very interesting. If you find this fascinating, read anything by Elaine Pagels. She is a scholar on the coptic/gnostic texts.

Frankly, I prefer the gnostic way of living life as opposed to the way mapped out in the Christian bible that was hand picked by pope gregory long after Christ allegedly died!!!

[IndyOp]

26. Interesting.

So what, do you think, was the motive of the people who 'inserted' the Judas' betrayal theme?

Were the early Xtians arrogating power unto themselves by warning anyone who might betray them?

I love learning about the early church - I was raised Catholic, surrounded by mystery of the church - and I love learning about the reality.

:hi:

[SalviaBlue]

49. This is one songwriter's llyrics might help answer to your question

Stand Up For Judas
(Leon Rosselson)
Chorus:
So stand up, stand up for Judas and the cause that Judas served
It was Jesus who betrayed the poor with his word

The Romans were the masters when Jesus walked the land
In Judea and in Galilee they ruled with an iron hand
And the poor were sick with hunger and the rich were clothed in splendour
And the rebels whipped and crucified hung rotting as a warning
And Jesus knew the answer
Said, Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, said, Love your enemies
But Judas was a Zealot and he wanted to be free
Resist, he said, The Romans' tyranny

Jesus was a conjuror, miracles were his game
And he fed the hungry thousands and they glorified his name
He cured the lame and the lepers, he calmed the wind and the weather
And the wretched flocked to touch him so their troubles would be taken
And Jesus knew the answer
All you who labour, all you who suffer only believe in me
But Judas sought a world where no one starved or begged for bread
The poor are always with us, Jesus said

Now Jesus brought division where none had been before
Not the slaves against their masters but the poor against the poor
Set son to rise up against father, and brother to fight against brother
For he that is not with me is against me, was his teaching
Said Jesus, I am the answer
You unbelievers shall burn forever, shall die in your sins
Not sheep and goats, said Judas, But together we may dare
Shake off the chains of misery we share

Jesus stood upon the mountain with a distance in his eyes
I am the way, the life, he cried, The light that never dies
So renounce all earthly treasures and pray to your heavenly father
And he pacified the hopeless with the hope of life eternal
Said Jesus, I am the answer
And you who hunger only remember your reward's in Heaven
So Jesus preached the other world but Judas wanted this
And he betrayed his master with a kiss

By sword and gun and crucifix Christ's gospel has been spread
And 2.000 cruel years have shown the way that Jesus led
The heretics burned and tortured, and the butchering, bloody crusaders
The bombs and rockets sanctified that rain down death from heaven
They followed Jesus, they knew the answer
All non-believers must be believers or else be broken
So put no trust in Saviours, Judas said, For everyone
Must be to his or her own self - a sun

(as sung by Roy Bailey)

[IndyOp]

54. Wow! Thanks.

Bailey makes it sound like Judas was an idealist and Jesus a prop for the emperialists...

I will say that I have heard 'other versions' of Jesus' teachings that I was surprised by -- for example: 'Turn the other cheek' isn't submission to power it is a challenge to power. The right hand is the clean hand and the left hand dirty (so they thought). If your master strikes you with his right hand and you turn the other cheek, then he is left with only one option if he wishes to strike you again -- demeaning himself by using his left hand.

I also particularly like what I have heard of teachings that were translated directly from Aramaic to English -- not from Aramaic to Latin to English. The modern, direct translations reveal a Jesus who was much more in tune with spirituality as expressed by nature and much more emphatic about each individual having a direct connection with 'God' - no go-betweens necessary.

[papau]

41. Torpedo? -The New Testament gospels of John and Mark both

both contain passages that suggest that Jesus not only picked Judas to betray him, but actually encouraged Judas to hand him over. Plus the Bishop in 186 dicussed this writing - and condemned it.

So there is nothibg new here - but you are right in that it goes against the traditional Roman Catholic view/interpretation of the NT.

[newscott]

72. That's what I remember.

Jesus knew he was gonna get and who was gonna do it.

Just like Peter and the three denials.

[jonas_stradlater]

79. Imagine if they find David Lynch's film of Dune

That'll be one crazy, incoherent but really fun religion that'd I'd be glad to join!

[LuckyTheDog]

5. At LAST! Judas' side of the story.

Here is another link:

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/

[MADem]

15. The "money quote" from the timeline

this newly discovered Gospel portrays Judas as acting at Jesus' request when he hands Jesus over to the authorities.

The Gospel of Judas predates the A.D. 180 publication of St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies. The Bishop of Lyon's influential volume sought to unify the Christian church by savaging alternative views and interpretations, referred to as "fictitious histor(ies)."

Irenaeus' targets included the Gospel of Judas and anyone who, because of this text, looked favorably on Jesus' betrayer. The Gospel is one of redemption for Christianity's greatest villain. It relates that Judas was the chosen disciple and a tragic hero selected by Jesus to betray him.

In this Gospel Judas is the only disciple to recognize Jesus' true nature as a divine being. The text describes how, as Jesus' final days unfold, he requests that Judas betray him, warning him, "You will become the accursed one."

The betrayal enabled Jesus to transcend what Gnostics viewed as the flawed physical world and return to his rightful place in the spiritual realm. In this interpretation the Crucifixion, enabled by the betrayal, is necessary not so much for the forgiveness of human sins, but to free Christ's divine self from its mortal cloak.

The Gospel of Judas was inscribed on papyrus, most likely at a Gnostic monastery in Egypt. Its existence has long been known, primarily because of surviving anti-heretical works that denounce its tenets. But no copy was discovered until the late 1970s and none has been available to scholars or the public until now. The one surviving copy was likely hidden in a tomb in Middle Egypt, perhaps during St. Athanasius's fourth-century campaign to destroy "heretical" texts.

[Inland]

9. Genuine Apocrypha! nt

[matcom]

10. MIHOP!!!

same post as in the lounge thread :D

[stopbush]

12. So, here we have a COPY produced 250 years after the supposed

death of Jesus, a copy of a never-seen-by-human-eyes-but-mentioned in 180 document (written roughly 150
years after Jesus' death...and 40 years after the last of the 4 Gospels was written and 110 years after Mark was penned)
by a single writer...and we're supposed to believe that this is anything but a fake to trump up the ongoing myth of Jesus?

BTW - I've got the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge in my dresser drawer. Wanna buy it?

[Inland]

14. A Genuine Copy! nt

[McCamy Taylor]

28. Same goes for Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Paul never met Jesus.

[WilliamPitt]

30. All the gospels were written well after the death of Jesus

So...

[MadHound]

32. Ummm, hate to tell you this, but all of the New Testament

Is nothing but copies of copies. None of the Gospels was written within the lifetime of Christ. In fact the closest is maybe, at best, within sixty years of his death.

And in fact, a few other biblical accounts were scoffed at as fiction until they turned up in reality. The Gnostic Gospels, the Book of Mary Magdalene, etc. etc.

And frankly, judging from the synopsis of what I've seen here and elsewhere, this seems to be a book that the Church probably would have liked to have stayed buried. Doesn't fit it with the traditional Bible story. Brings up all sorts of probing questions, like why did Jesus want Judas to "betray" him? What sort of game was being played here?

[WilliamPitt]

34. "Whatever, it's all fake"

will be the next reply you get.

Too bad people don't have a deeper appreciation for history. Whether you believe in this stuff or not is moot; it exists as a force in history, and deserves analysis on those merits.

[Beelzebud]

40. You're right, it was the next reply they got. And you made it. :D

[stopbush]

46. Of course we understand that.

But being a "force in history" has nothing at all to do with being true. In fact, I'd guess
that most received opinion on history is more false than true.

The facts are that there is NO contemporaneous account of Jesus ever having existed. There
is NO corraborating evidence that the disciples existed. None. You must accept the
Bible - a book that calls bats birds rather than mammals, that speaks of unicorns and fire-breathing
dragons and - my favorite - the cockatrice - as being true in its representation of history
and historical personages. It's a self-reinforcing loop of myth presented as truth.

I will say that there is interest in seeing how completely the myth of Jesus and his disciples
melds with earlier myths of Mithras and other gods, gods who were also around for thousands
of years and were believed by many to be real, historical figures. But those gods eventually went
away, as will Jesus...or, should I say, as IS Jesus in much of the civilized world.

BTW - I still love your writing, Will!

[Dunedain]

71. Well put sir

[jmowreader]

66. That probing question isn't very probing at all

Jesus' mission was to become the Supreme Sacrifice, to absorb all the sin of the world with his passing.

The Roman leadership wanted to crucify him for rabble rousing, which would have fulfilled the Supreme Sacrifice, but consider: he was behaving himself. The Centurions who were the police in Ancient Rome were like cops today: they had their hands full with serious criminals--lots of murders, rapes, theft, real crimes in those days. If you had the choice of arresting people whose crimes included Serial Rape and Serial Murder, or someone whose crime was Starting a New Religion, you'd go after the serial rapists and murderers.

If he would have walked into a police station, announced that he was Jesus Christ and asked to be crucified, one of two things would have happened: they'd have called him crazy and thrown him out of the station, or they'd have nailed him up...but if they'd have crucified him, it would have gone down as Suicide by Cop and not the Supreme Sacrifice--and why would anyone worship a man who offed himself?

So here's Jesus' alternatives: go out and do something really despicable in front of a Centurion, or get someone to turn him in. What choice did he have? He absolutely could not commit a crime because it would have made Sunday school teachers' jobs REAL interesting: "Children, Jesus was the Son of God. He was a kind and generous man who healed the sick, fed the hungry, befriended the friendless, and oh yeah he also got executed for killing someone in front of a policeman." (And, once again, you're dealing with Suicide by Cop.) The alternative? Pulling Judas, who knows Jesus is divine, off to the side, explaining to him the situation, and asking Judas to lead the Romans to Jesus.

This makes more sense than expecting Christians to believe that Jesus' disciples, who he was treating well, would just roll over on him for no reason.

[KoKo]

68. Good Point made there...I'm sure DU Theologians might carp...but my

reading of what you say is what I grew up with...but then...I'm only an Episcopalian/Protestant and what the "heck" do WE KNOW ABOUT ALL OF THIS.
:evilgrin:

[H2O Man]

13. Somewhere I have

a letter from Daniel Berrigan on this general topic from around 1980-81. It's a fascinating area of study for a better understanding of Christianity.

[Coexist]

22. the Judas as 'Judas' issue was what first made me question

at around age 9, Catholicism.

When I learned in Religious Instruction that Judas hanged himself after, I got really emotional and told the Sister that Judas was not really bad and if God makes all things happen, He must have made Judas do that, too.

She got angry with me and told me that Judas was a traitor.

Thus began my break with my given religion. I questioned a lot after that.

[IndyOp]

45. Wow! I gave up on Catholism at about age 9, too.

My breaking point was 'limbo' -- the purgatory that babies who die before they were baptised go to, to remain until the end of the world when all the souls are welcomed into heaven.

My opinion was, and remains, that babies are, by definition, innocent and, therefore, go directly to heaven.

I think that 'limbo' was dreamed up by people who dreamed up 'original sin' -- because we are brought into this world by the 'dirty act' of sex then we come into this world marked with original sin and must be baptized to remove this sin. If you die before being baptized, then: limbo. It is just another punishment for sex.

:eyes:

[Coexist]

47. amazing isn't it.

maybe a certain area of the brain turns on then.

BTW - didn't the recently 'rearrange' heaven to let babies in?

[IndyOp]

55. Did they get rid of limbo? Or re-purpose it? Geez. :rollseyes: (n/t)

:eyes:

[Voltaire]

25. Funny, I just started a course in Christianity last night

I know what we will be talking about for class next week then.

[NashVegas]

29. Ron Howard Couldn't Have Bought Better Publicity (DaVinci Code)

I wouldn't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure this area was hit on (Judas' sellout being part of the plan) in the book.

The timing's amazing. I think, too amazing to be a coincidence. But, whatever.

The story of Jesus is the story of a cult that caught on with those who held power in the 4th-6th centuries. If Constantine had never converted, who knows how differently things may have gone ...

Edit: on a purely I-dig-anthropolgy-level, yes, it's cool.

[spuddonna]

31. Thanks for the link! That's fascinating...

Here's a link to other Gnostic texts if anyone is interested!
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html

[McCamy Taylor]

33. "The Complete Gospels" ed Robert Miller is a good referernce

for those who are interested in a serious study of the literature, history and archeology of the various texts relating to Christianity. It cross references all the traditional Gospels and has the Gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalen etc. Tells you who censored what when and why.

Fundamentalists ought to check this one out before they decide that King James was taking dictation from God.

[saracat]

37. Facinating. Thanks Will. Too bad

some can't appreciate a interesting historical find!

[alfredo]

38. Jesus committed suicide. Or as the writer of "The Jesus Papers"

the crucifixion was a hoax, and that Jesus was alive when brought down from the cross. Some say he fled to Damascus Syria. He was seen on Damascus road.

[Atman]

39. The whole freeper world is turning upside down!

:rofl:

I suppose they'll just blame the National Geographic for being a liberal smear rag.

[gkhouston]

48. you know NG is an immoral publication

just think of all the wardrobe malfunctions. ;-)

[Finder]

56. Rupert Murdoch owns now. n/t

[The Stranger]

42. I am often amused at the notion of a "Word of God," yet seeing all of

these ancient documents emerging containing knowledge that has been suppressed for millenia, it really leads one to wonder: Assuming these works unearthed in the past 50-60 years are actually ancient (and I see no reason to doubt the experts), is someone trying to tell us something? And how does a piece of papyrus (and, particularly, this piece of papyrus) manage to survive two millenia and continuous worldwide efforts to destroy it?

Holy shit.

[stellanoir]

43. But, but, but. . .

"The most revealing passages in the Judas manuscript begins, "The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot during a week, three days before he celebrated Passover."

The account goes on to relate that Jesus refers to the other disciples, telling Judas "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me." By that, scholars familiar with Gnostic thinking said, Jesus meant that by helping him get rid of his physical flesh, Judas will act to liberate the true spiritual self or divine being within Jesus.

Unlike the accounts in the New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the anonymous author of the Gospel of Judas believed that Judas Iscariot alone among the 12 disciples understood the meaning of Jesus' teachings and acceded to his will. In the diversity of early Christian thought, a group known as Gnostics believed in a secret knowledge of how people could escape the prisons of their material bodies and return to the spiritual realm from which they came."

>snip

""Correctly understood, there's nothing undermining about the Gospel of Judas," Mr. Robinson said in a telephone interview. He said that the New Testament gospels of John and Mark both contain passages that suggest that Jesus not only picked Judas to betray him, but actually encouraged Judas to hand him over to those he knew would crucify him.? "

"Welp isn't * Jesus and Libby Judas???"

Freeper heads could be exploding as we type.

Thanks for posting. Is real interesting.

[soothsayer]

44. I've long believed that Jesus asked his fave to do this betrayal

thing. Excellent to see it sort of proven!

[Cleita]

50. Hmm, I hope this doesn't turn out like the James Ossuary,

which was authenticated and then debunked as a fake.

[Bake]

51. This is not really all that unusual.

And doubtless pseudepigraphical. There are dozens of "other" gospels; one which is perhaps most familliar is the so-called Gospel of Thomas (remember "Doubting Thomas"?).

As Christianity spread through the Mediterranean world, churches in different areas incorporated doctrinal differences picked up from indigenous sources. Oftentimes, someone would write a "gospel" with the purpose of lending support to a particular doctrine (e.g., gnosticism), and would attribute the authorship of it to one of the disciples (hence "pseudepigrapha"). Even if this "gospel of Judas" is quite old, that doesn't make it authentic, any more than the Gospel of Thomas was actually written by Thomas (of the 12).

The Church went through a long process of deciding which works, out of the hundreds or even thousands floating around the world at that time, reflected "authentic" Christianity, and decided that those works which are now referred to as the New Testament, were the ones that would comprise the canon.

So somebody discovered an old manuscript. That's interesting from an archaeological standpoint, but it doesn't really change anything. It may well reflect some thinking at the time regarding the whole "Judas issue" but that still doesn't change anything.

Bake

[papau]

52. I agree - the "determinism" argument that is used to reject Judas as

a villain has been around a few thousand years and Mark and John do have a determinism theme (the "We" in the heading refers to the atheists on this board).


Of course in Mark 14:10-11 and John 13:21-30, the direct words in Mark say Judas was into greed, and John says Satan and again greed in the form of theft. So we have Judas believing that betraying Jesus would be worth a lot of money and therefore pointing him out to the cops - a "handing him over" moment.

The Roman Catholic view is to go with the actual writing in Mark 14:10-11 and John 13:21-30, and to "hate" Judas.

Other Christians think about Jesus' forgiveness and the Gospel's determinism, and we do not hate Judas or think he is a "condemned for all time" soul.

[Bake]

59. Apparently SOMEBODY had to do it.

Might as well have been Judas?

Seriously, what if nobody had tipped off the "authorities" as to Jesus' whereabouts, etc. If the whole thing was part of The Plan, then **somebody** had to do it.

Bake

[Jose Diablo]

60. You got it, the determinism vs freewill issue

Augustus vs Pelagious..Calvin...even today with contempory christianity, this Gods will salvation versus mankind as his own savior, to anything in between.

It's hard to come-up with anything 'new'.

[Windy]

75. Why is MAN deciding what belongs in the bible and what

best exemplifies Christ's teachings? I'd rather read it all and decide for myself!

[Chimichurri]

53. Fascinating. n/t

[incapsulated]

57. This is what Islam has taught all along

And what I've believed myself for quite some time.

[tomreedtoon]

61. So, is Bush following the Gospel of Herod?

There are a lot of conservative Christians that pride themselves on how they "analyze" Scripture, sometimes claiming to know the ancient and dead languages in which the original texts were written. I'd be curious to know what they make of this. Or whether they will acknowledge it at all.

[LittleClarkie]

62. Apocryphal writings can be quite wacky sometimes

Still and all, could be an interesting document, but one that should probably be taken with a whole lotta salt.

[Blue_In_AK]

63. The "apocryphal literature" has always made more sense

to me. I'm a modern-day Gnostic to the core.

[Sequoia]

65. This was posted this morning.

[KoKo]

67. Thanks for the Post...because many DU'ers will do some "searches."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684825546/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-6124789-0272718#reader-linkhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684825546/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-6124789-0272718#reader-link

[Hidden Stillness]

69. National Geographic Channel Special This Sunday

There is going to be a special, two hours I think, on the National Geographic cable channel this Sunday night on this find, with great scholars such as Prof. Elaine Pagels, (author of "The Gnostic Gospels," etc.), who proved that there were women bishops in the early Church and that they were driven out, who helped translate the Nag Hammadi documents, etc. Part of the interest here was whether or not Judas ends up being the "Beloved Disciple," or if that was Mary Magdelene who was first to see the risen Christ, before any of the pricks who kept her out, or if it was John of the Gospels. As mentioned by Little Clarkie (#62), Apocryphal writings run the gamut--either as beautiful and wise as anything in the Bible (Gospel of Thomas, for example) or as psycho as Revelations. There was a huge range of very early Christian writings, and many customs, etc. One thing that never changes though: why are atheists such totally ignorant assholes, yet they are the experts on everything?

[xchrom]

74. as soon as reached some kind of independent thinking age

i realized christ had to ask judas to do the deed.

and indeed as i have read the gospels it does sound to me as though jesus signals to judas that it has to be so.

[cynatnite]

76. Most fundies will ignore it

Convenient yes, but they will. The bible as it is, they don't believe or care about anything outside of that unless it reinforces their own beliefs. That's just how many of them function.

Few will change their stances on Judas.

[Raksha]

77. Thanks for posting this, Will.

I've been interested in the Nag Hammadi Library for years, and this is certainly an exciting new development.

[Generic Other]

78. Link to National Geo interactive site

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/