Quick note about the Duke rape from a former stripper...

[readmoreoften]

I was a stripper for 3 years (full time). The first thing the bouncers told me is not to do private parties for frat boys or police officers. They said the frat boys will gang rape me and the police officers will do whatever they please, because a hired bouncer (dancers usually hire bouncers when they do private shows) has no authority over a room full of police officers.

I am not mentioning this to "blame the victim" in any way. I am only pointing out that gang rape is so USUAL, that it was the first thing I learned about.

During my first few weeks as a dancer, I was almost gang raped by 20 men (I got out of it by impersonating the Three Stooges and making loud Wooba-Wooba monkey noises, I shit you not.) The woman I was working with that night was murdered and thrown into a dumpster. Three other dancers were murdered in my city in those three years. I had clients try to burn me with cigarettes. I had clients try to strangle me.

This is fairly normal behavior for many men. The wealthy and priviledged are usually the worst. This is not to insult the many men who are not rapists. This is just pointing out that THERE IS A PROBLEM.

There needs to be a national initiative that trains men to detect, discourage, and defuse rape culture amongst themselves. Women, of course, need to be a part of the education process. But men need to step up to the plate.

[Maat]

1. Wow. Thanks for telling your story (n/t).

[dogday]

2. K&R

[movie_girl99]

3. Jesus H...i'm glad that you got out of the biz

alive. It does always seem that the rich think that laws and riles don't apply to them.

[readmoreoften]

31. The honesty of it all was hard to leave behind.

I danced in 4 states. Every state is different. Every club is different. The workplace safety issues that girls have can vary from the geography of the place (having to push through thick crowds of men), to the attitude of the management, to the borough-county-district laws, to the cover charge. For example, if a club charges a $20 entrance fee, many customers feel entitled to $20 worth of "free product" from the girls (who are also paying to be there.)

The hardest thing to leave behind was the honesty of it all. I interacted with thousands of men from multiple countries, every socioeconomic background, every race. Some were there to perform their masculinity for one another, some to perform it for themselves. Some were there to look at other men; some because they were lonely. Some were there because they wanted to financially help and befriend the women. Some were there because they were premature ejaculators and minimal contact was all they needed to orgasm. The worst, in my opinion, were the bachelor's parties. The sense of entitlement at these parties was just immense. The fact that many were making me a party to their infidelity disgusted me. I was always happy when a man refused to interact with me because he said he loved his fiance too much. (It only happened three times in three years.)

It was sickening, vile, painful, funny and it was many men at the bare essentials of who they are... or at least who they were at the moment. How could I get an office job with these men afterwards and feign a professional relationship? It wasn't the money that kept me in. (Although that helped.) It was that I felt a strange sense of security in knowing who I was dealing with and how to handle them. In an office, handling these same groups of men becomes a frightening dilemma, knowing what I know.

By the way, I'm not saying that all men are "bad" or "evil" or "sexually predatory". In fact, I think that's a bad way to conduct debates, in terms of who people "are" instead of what they do. It's not about identity (I'm a good guys vs. they're all bad guys); it's about attitudes and behaviors of people in positions of social power.

[joeunderdog]

53. I suppose you could say that there is a sense of "permission" for acting

out in these situations. Many men (and their women) look at the so-called rituals in strip clubs as NOT the same as if it happened with an average Jane at a bar or club. There's a different context for the behavior, and many men lower their bar for behavior, doing things they would never do elsewhere. I'm not excusing this--just explaining it.

And just like most strippers do not show their private parts at the parties they attend while not working, many married men would not put themselves in positions to be next to a naked woman at a party or house or wherever. I don't go to strip clubs (except for Bachelor Parties), but that's the only situation where my wife would tolerate me being close to a naked woman. The existence of a double standard for behavior in strip clubs for men AND women is hard to argue.

My points are:
1--Men's behavior at strip clubs only establishes their "low bar" and not the norm. It's like making a global assessment of men's sobriety at a bar room. There are sober ones at home, too.

2--There is a slippery slope when society (men and women) gives special allowance for sexual acting out in a particular context. Some guys can't handle that and get out of control.


BTW--my above comments only are a reply to Readmore's post and are no excuse/explanation for the gang rape incident. I'm not sure that a heinous crime like that needs much explanation.

[movie_girl99]

82. I think I can understand in some ways how you feel

It must be a rough job in so many ways but also a bit rewarding. I'm a "rescuer" and it has gotten me into some sticky situations but at the end of the day it boils down to, people need help in different ways. You probably made a real difference so someone at some point in their life. I'm just glad that you came out of it okay. Thanks for sharing your story.

[ananda]

91. Remember...

Rape is not about sex, infidelity, having fun, or anything human.

It's about power and oppression. It's about that oppressive male
attitude of proprietary rights to own anything and everything.

We see that rape mindset everyday in politics and corporatism.

Sue

[donsu]

103. yeah, and how they want to pee on their property including women

nt

[salin]

4. what a horrific story

Dare I ask if the muderer(s)? were ever caught?

As a society we will talk with girls, but for some reason not have the same conversations with boys. The rape statistics have not changed much since I was raped more than twenty years ago - stunningly high. Folks, it isn't just one or two men doing all of that raping. There really is a culture that persists that some how justifies "borderline" behaviors that are then easily crossed. It is a national tragedy for all.

[helderheid]

7. it is a problem. Every woman in my family has been raped.

[shanti]

11. wow

i'm sorry to hear that :(

[helderheid]

68. Weird... I know. Maybe it's victims raising victims?

[stop the bleeding]

16. I'm speechless n/t

[helderheid]

69. 1 in 3 are REPORTED. I don't think any of the rapes but mine were.

[readmoreoften]

33. No, in fact, that's the worst part of the story.

The men who did this were criminals who had a foothold on the inside of the police force. When I went to a police officer friend after my assault, he told me that the police would do nothing to protect me because (a) no one would take me seriously because I was a dancer, and (b) the perpetrators were part of a crime family with ties to the inside of the police force. In fact, he told me that if I reported the incident I would do little more than make myself a target for these people.

I don't know if they themselves killed the girl I was working with. They were looking for her that night with some ferocity, and the next morning she was in a dumpster. That's when I learned the joking police term NHI (not from police, of course) It's when an undesirable is found dead, some police jokingly label the crime NHI-- no human involved.

Rumor had it, she was murdered. Or she could've died of a drug overdose and crawled in the dumpster. Who knows? It's not like anyone bothered to investigate.

She was a really nice person, too.

[femmedem]

80. the cops who investigated my rape were terrible

and this was the most disillusioning part of the experience. First, when I pointed out who the guy was, they laughed and laughed at his pot belly, as if the bad part wasn't being raped, it was being raped by someone who was overweight. Then they thought it was hilarious that I locked the doors to the police cruiser when they left me there by myself across the street from where I'd been kidnapped. Then one of them misinformed the grand jury, saying that I had been walking home at 5 a.m., when it was really 11 p.m. (not that I shouldn't be able to walk home at 5 a.m.) Then he told the grand jury that he didn't believe I had been raped.

The worst? When I was explaining what happened to a rape crisis councilor, she let it slip that this sounded like the same guy and his sister who'd raped a thirteen-year-old mentally retarded girl. When I told the cops about this, they said they wouldn't inform her because she wouldn't make "a credible witness."

The court experience wasn't the greatest, either:

Me: ...so then he pulled out a knife, told me he would kill me if I made any noise, and put his other arm around me..."

DA: So the two of you were hugging. What happened next?

Etc.

BTW, I also became a dancer several years later. For me, it was healing. I could set boundaries and be in control. Weekend nights at strip clubs and bachelor parties brought out the crazies, but Monday nights in a smallish, juice bar club were great. Lots of quiet, nice guys maybe going through a divorce and wanting to talk to a woman but not ready for a relationship. Respectful. They used to show me photos of their kids, bring me tapes of their favorite music. And when someone I loved died suddenly, one of them anonymously gave me $1000 so I could take a month off of work. So I have some very fond memories.

[Triana]

5. There is MOST DEFINITELY a problem and sadly...

...little has changed since my Mom (who is 79 or so now) was a teen. This crap is FAR FAR TOO ACCEPTED by society and MEN need to do their part to speak out about it as unacceptable behaviour from their male counterparts.

[Mandate My Ass]

6. thank you for posting that

Even here on DU there were people saying she's faking for the money, or what did she expect as an exotic dancer. Especially in light of the email from the punk who said he wanted to kill a stripper and rip her skin off, it's obvious this isn't about sex, it's about physically expressing rage at women.

I work on a campus and these things happen a lot. Date rape is the first thing the safety officer addresses when new students come on campus, because rape is creepily common at colleges especially at frat parties.

Also, not to be a police basher, but my ex is a bartender where many cops hang out and he said most of them are the worst offenders when it comes to driving under the influence.

[shanti]

12. i agree with you about drinking and

police officers. i personally knew a deputy sheriff who bragged about driving with his deputy buddy to the Napa wine country and back with a jug of wine next to him in his car, drunk as a skunk. He was pulled over in Davis and when he flashed his badge, they let him go.

sickening...

[smartvoter]

8. Wow. That is seriously messed up. What a story. nt

[bettyellen]

9. i know cops who hired strippers as well as someone to blow them....

and they knew the difference, the lines were not blurry with them expecting more from the dancers because they hired a pro i guess.
they told me that only the woman who agreed to sell blow jobs had a bouncer, and he was a hell's angel. the dancers only had each other, they wouldn't work alone though.

[hedgehog]

10. It sounds like these women were free lancing and working

without the advice you had (ie don't do private parties for frat boys)

Does anyone really think these guys respect any women? I wouldn't want to be alone with any of them for any reason. I expect the only difference they see between one woman and another is her price.

[etherealtruth]

32. I would hate to be any woman that encountered these scum ...

Could you imagine being the "pizza delivery" person, a woman coming home to the adjoining apartment ... whatever.

You got it right with:"Does anyone really think these guys respect any women? I wouldn't want to be alone with any of them for any reason. I expect the only difference they see between one woman and another is her price."

[Ohio Joe]

13. I only disagree on one minor point

"This is fairly normal behavior for many men"

Speaking as a man, I in no way find rape "normal". I find it a repulsive crime. We (as a society) really need to find a way to allow victims to come forward and get their attackers prosecuted without being victimized again.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Defining 'normal' as common and not unexpected, she is,

unfortunately, more right than not. That said, it doesn't make it any less repulsive.

[progressivebydesign]

57. A poll done by a men's mag found 67% of college age guys...

polled, would rape a woman if he could get away with it.

[kath]

94. OMG, what a horrifying statistic!

Granted, probably skewed by the fact that it was readership of a certain mag, but *still*.

Makes me so disgusted I want to crawl off into a cave and disappear...

[Marie26]

132. And those are the ones who

will admit it. Makes me think the actual percentage is much higher. That is an incredible statistic.

[Krist]

134. unbelievable, but maybe true

I'm in college, and glad to be in the 23% minority.

[freeplessinseattle]

14. and I personally know a few ladies that had no problems

but their agency wouldn't book any shows with frat boys and in fact parties where the majority of guests under age 25 were turned away. this particular Seattle agency has been in business for over 20 years with no problems.

The agency owner also has clowns, magicians and comedians for rent. The clowns had more problem guests than the strippers did, and their audience was just all juiced up on sugar, not alcohol.

[readmoreoften]

29. Agencies in the NY/NJ/PA area have been gone for years.

for dancers, not escorts. The last I heard of agencies in the PA area was in the late eighties, although there could've been some in the 90s.

Dancing is different all over the country, depending on the municipality, even on the district.

There is no general advice that can be given, really.

[cynatnite]

17. I think of all the unreported rapes that go on in this country...

I bet it's at least double what the statistics say.

[Pacifist Patriot]

18. K & R

[DarkTirade]

19. One of my co-workers was a stripper a long time ago...

she's mentioned a few scary incidents. Mostly ones that involve her asking the biggest bouncer in the place to escoert her to her car so she can get the hell out of there safely.

[ThomCat]

20. I volunteered for years with a group called

the Anti-Rape Task Force. I can't even guess how many people I've known who were raped or sexually assaulted, but I can certainly pass along the confirmation that rape really is a normal cultural thing for a whole lot of guys.

A lot of guys think that rape is a justified way of "punishing" women for imagined or trivial offenses. A lot of guys think attacking women is fun, or funny. And a lot of guys just don't get it that rape is a form of torture.

[GliderGuider]

21. You don't even need to be a stripper, just a woman

At a party at my house a few years ago, six women - all wives and mothers - were sitting around swapping stories. Every one of them had been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. I kept my ears open after that, and figure that about 80% of all the women I know have been assaulted. Plain ordinary middle-class women, who don't put themselves in risky situations. It makes me ashamed of my gender sometimes, but it makes me more determined than ever to support education for men and outreach for women.

We just had a situation here in Ottawa where an ex-husband murdered his ex-wife and their kids, in a fit of "If I can't have her no one will." It's not just the Robert "Pig Farm" Picktons of this world who are to blame - we have a long way to go to make male violence against women unacceptable.

[electropop]

28. I am so ashamed of so many of my fellow "men."

I have no respect whatsoever for slime who treat women as anything less than the precious blessings they are.

[Krist]

64. People come in all shades

Dont think men need to feel too guilty over the actions of some sick pervs.

We need stronger sense of personal culture and responsibility.

And only morons think religion is the answer here.

[young_at_heart]

22. They ought to do a study about privileged white males

I sense that many of these 'Rich Boys' feel they can do whatever they want (mostly) and not have to worry about consequences.

[ThomCat]

24. A study would confirm that,

but that would just be a "well, Duh" study.

[young_at_heart]

27. Agreed........society would ignore it completely

Just think of all the "studies" that show we have Global Warming that have been ignored!

[KittyWampus]

86. how about rich black boys (you know, like basketball players)?

sorry, but race has squat to do with it. And probably not wealth/class.

We live in a culture that degrades Human Sexuality and lauds aggressive, predatory behavior.

[Ecumenist]

131. Exactly.... it is the sense of entitlement and power

[Freddie Stubbs]

23. Whenever my college fraternity hired a stripper,

the stripper always brought along a male bodyguard.

[girl gone mad]

25. I used to bartend...

and cocktail waitress at topless bars during college. The frat boys, in general, were the worst type of customer. They would say the most disrespectful things about the dancers. They liked to binge drink and then would behave aggressively and irrationally.

Even though they tended to be from wealthy and upper-middle class families (the bars I worked at were near an elite private university), they never tipped well and would often create a scene complaining that one of the girls had stolen money from them. Usually they had simply dropped their money on the floor or it had slipped their mind that they just bought a round ten minutes before.

I think that college boys are even worse these days because they've grown up with internet porn and the dominant right-wing message of hate towards women.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. I had a female friend who bartended...

... but at a gay bar. She said it was the best gig she ever had.

[emmajane67]

71. I second that. I used to work at a gay mens cocktail bar

(I'm female) and it was the BEST waitressing/bar gig I ever had.
I got the biggest tips and had the most fun.
I was only about 19 at the time and all the couples wanted to take me home and adopt me.

[Zookeeper]

138. I was a restaurant server at a gay male resort...

and I loved it. Never was pinched, propositioned or harrassed. When I finished work, I headed for the dance floor and had carefree fun dancing with my adopted brothers. I never went to straight bars.

[tomreedtoon]

26. Ever read the latest porn? It's violent.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I read porn. I've done so all my life. It's better than trying to force my personal needs on a real woman...not that my needs are extreme or anything, but having been bullied throughout my life, I don't wish to be a bully to anyone else.

But within the last ten years, porn has taken a much greater leap into abuse. Many of the stories contain the codes "nc" - non-consentual sex, meaning the woman is forced into it - "rp" for rape and "sn" for snuff.

Even stories that don't fall in these categories can be vicious. "Bimboization" is one big theme - where women are given big breasts and mind-control so they become stupid and think only of sex. It's pathetic in a way - men don't think they can deal with women unless they are in some kind of chains, either physical or mental shackles. And then they beat the hell out of them or kill them.

I almost suspect that it's men's frustration with their lives in general. They aren't satisfied with their lives, work or anything else, so they take it out on women. I sure don't remember seeing this kind of porn in the 60's and 70's, during the years when Democrats offered some hope and good lives for everyone. It was a time when sex could be enjoyed by all, not just the rapists.

[Mnemosyne]

38. I ended up watching part of a snuff film one time.

I rented it for my ex- at the video store I was working at in the late 80's. There was no way that cheap video film crew had enough money for the brutality and gore it started showing. I almost puked when I realized what we were watching. I've never watched porn since. Horrible nightmares for a very long time.

I miss the 70's.

[readmoreoften]

46. just to ease your mind

There has never been a single instance of a snuff film found in America, let alone one rented at a video store. There are a few movies that are so graphic that they seem to be real: movies like Guinea Pig or Cannibal Holocaust. These movies ARE NOT real. They're horror movies and the point of them is to see how much they can get the viewer to believe that the events are really taking place. (Like Blair Witch.)

Movies like Faces of Death and Traces of Death ARE (mostly) real. Some scenes are faked. They aren't snuff films; they are documentary footage. The difference is that a snuff film is a film where a person is murdered for the purpose of the movie alone. Faces/Traces of death is just documentary footage of executions, etc.

[Mnemosyne]

55. I'm not sure I believe that one has never been found. I know what I saw

readmore and it could not have been faked. No way. I cannot prove it at this late date, but I really know what I saw, without going into gruesome details. I saw some Faces of Death my ex-husband just had to watch years ago, around the same time :puke:.

This film was done with the sole purpose of killing and mutilating the two young women in the film. It took a little while to register exactly what was happening on the screen it was soo horrific, so I saw more than enough to understand what I was watching, unfortunately. My boss, the owner of the vid. store took it home and watched it. She agreed.

The strangest part was I noticed the film when a minister brought it back. He never said a word.

I think it is more of a case of it never being talked about. There are sick, sick people out there. I shudder to think how many.

Thanks for trying to help me not feel so sick about it though.:hi:

[Atman]

62. Relax, vickiss. Snuff films are urban legend

Here is just one article on the subject. Keep in mind, this stuff is so illegal that the likelihood of you finding a "snuff" movie at your local video store, the urban legend angle notwithstanding, well, it just wouldn't happen. Did your video store openly rent child porn, too?

---

The Straight Dope: Is There Such A Thing As A Snuff Film?

Dear Cecil:

Please settle a debate for us before somebody gets killed. Is there really such a thing as a snuff film? --snopes, Canoga Park, California

Cecil replies:

This is the weirdest urban legend of all: that there are underground movies in which people are literally murdered on camera for purposes of entertainment. The question is not whether there are people sick enough to traffic in such things (in a world containing Jeffrey Dahmer and Geraldo Rivera, there probably are), but whether they actually do. All we can say is that in the nearly 30 years stories of snuff movies have been circulating, no genuine example has ever come to light.

"The rumor evidently originated in publicity circulated in 1970 by Alan Shakleton of Monarch Pictures, a low budget sado-porn movie distributor," Penn State folklorist Bill Ellis tells me. Shakleton "bought up a Latin-American Manson family ripoff titled Slaughter, had it subtitled, added a scene in which a woman was murdered (cut out of another film), then marketed the film under the title Snuff in New York City. Rumor has it that that he then incited women's groups to picket the film under the impression that the murder scene was an actual killing. Certainly the publicity Shakleton used implied that it was: `Made in South America Where Life Is Cheap.'"

Every few years since then snuff movies have been back in the news, either because some nut is accused of trying to make one (never successfully) or the tabloids report some sensational claim, e.g., that the main centers for the snuff movie industry are London, Amsterdam, and Bangkok. But pornography experts for the FBI and other law enforcement agencies say they have never seen a genuine snuff film.

Many people are convinced snuff films are real, possibly because it suits their ideological bent. For example, in her book Feminism Unmodified, feminist legal scholar Catharine MacKinnon says flatly that snuff films exist. But when I asked her to elaborate she declined, and indeed was quite mysterious about the whole thing. She just knew.

That's not to say there aren't movies purporting to show people actually being killed. These fall into several categories:

* News footage and the like in which a death is filmed by happenstance. One commonly cited example is the Zapruder film of the Kennedy assassination. One underground video series, Faces of Death, depicts numerous grisly deaths, some of it apparently drawn from newsreel outtakes, with a lot of reenactments thrown in.

* Porn films gone wrong. Ted McIlvenny, director of the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality and caretaker of what is probably the world's largest collection of sex movies--289,000 films and 100,000 videos--says that in his 25 years of following the porn business he's seen exactly three films in which someone was killed on camera. In two cases the death was unintended: (1) a guy died of a heart attack while being beaten during an S&M scene; and (2) a man accidentally strangled himself during an autoerotic asphyxiation.

* Anomalous weirdness. McIlvenny says the third film involving an actual death was a bizarre religious number from Morocco in which a hunchbacked kid was torn apart by wild horses while men stood around and masturbated. Sick, but not intended as commercial pornography.

* Filmed executions from Southeast Asia, etc. McIlvenny says he saw a film showing these once.

* Realistic fakes.

* Home videos by psychopaths. A commonly cited case involves Leonard Lake and Charles Ng, who in the mid-80s murdered at least 11 women in Lake's California cabin and made videos of several victims begging for mercy. I have not been able to confirm that anyone was actually killed on camera in this or similar cases, but wouldn't be surprised.

None of the above constitutes a snuff movie as the term is usually understood. It's not out of the realm of possibility that one will yet turn up. But the notion that there is some sort of snuff movie industry out there, complete with film crews, lab technicians, and, God help us, sacrificial actors; that these people film themselves committing capital crimes and sell the result to strangers; and that for nearly 30 years they've succeeded in concealing all traces of their handiwork, strikes me as absurd.

--CECIL ADAMS

===

Snopes is always a good source, too.

Planet Papers: Snuff Films

Skeptical Inquirer: Snuff Film; Making of an Urban Legend

This link says even "Faces of Death" films are almost entirely faked.

So rest easy, vickiss. Your mind was tricked.

[Mnemosyne]

85. I guess we must agree to disagree Atman.

I know what I saw. I am not a naive and gullible person as you imply.

And it is very insulting for you to ask me if the store I worked in rented child porn. WTF kind of evil person do you think I am to even ask me such a thing?

[Atman]

88. Please, vickiss, I wasn't trying to be insulting

What I am saying is, snuff films are patently illegal, and show completely illegal activity. They are illegal to own, illegal to make. And any tape must be manufactured, therefore it can be easily traced. A producer must buy film stock, blank tapes, packaging, shipping, there is a distribution channel. The video store owner purchased the tape wholesale from someplace. There are so many people that would be in jail for that tape, it just strains credulity to think that it could possibly show what you think you saw without a dozen people being in jail and the story all over the front page of your local paper. That is all I meant by asking about the kiddie porn. Use any other example of illegal activity you want if the kiddie porn comparison upsets you, it is besides the point. I wasn't accusing YOU of anything. The fact that you got so incensed at the thought of your video store selling kiddie porn only underscores my point, big time. But you think they'd sell SNUFF FILMS?

I am frankly surprised that you could read all those links I offered and STILL insist that a local video store was renting material which is widely known to be "urban legend." All I ask is that you or anyone else think critically about what you are asserting...that a subject so vile as killing human beings on tape, which has made it to "Snopes" and is almost universally considered to be "urban legend," somehow sits on the shelf of your local video store, and no one, not one person, has called the police or had the video store owner arrested. In fact, since you're so sure of what you saw, why aren't YOU calling the police? Because by your take on it, some poor parent out there is missing a child and would probably like the information contained on this over-the-counter "snuff" film.

Sorry you took offense. None was intended. In fact, I was trying to set your mind at ease, and allow you to possibly erase the images of these "killings" from your memory, since they were not actually killings at all.

[Mnemosyne]

125. Sorry I got upset Atman. I do appreciate how you

are trying to put my mind at ease.:hug: Another poster replied that he has also seen one of these films back in the 80's. There was nothing in the links that convinced me I was simply gullible, though it is a possiblity I won't completely reject. But I still know what I saw.

I wanted to call police and discussed it with my boss when I took her the tape. She asked me to let her handle it. I quit shortly after (wages issue) and should have forced the issue of that tape, you are right on that. The tape was not purchased by her, it was in the inventory when she bought the store, so she didn't know the contents.

I think people that did rent it just had to convince themselves that what they saw was faked. Without the gruesome details there is no way to make you understand how different that film was than others. There are several things I should have done then but didn't, that is my guilt to bear.

Two veterans also watched and believed it was a snuff film. My ex-, a Vietnam/Cambodia vet and my boss's husband, a Korean vet. They were mortified at what we all saw.

From snopes:
It's possible the unthinkable did come close to happening at one time. In 1989, two Virginia men were arrested by the FBI after broadcasting on a computer bulletin board their plans to kidnap a randomly-selected boy, molest, then kill him for a pornographic snuff film. Daniel Depew and Dean Lambey were picked up, tried, and thrown in jail for hatching this plot, with Depew sentenced to 33 years behind bars, and Lambey to 30.

Would they have carried out the scheme? It's hard to say now -- their defense maintained all their chatter was nothing but a sick fantasy the men aired, not something they would have acted on. The judge (needless to say in light of those sentences) thought different.
snip>

In this sick world how could anyone believe that these two men were simply anomalies? And the film I saw had no POV shots, only straight taping.

Think of all the heinous things you learn that happen all the time. Is this really any harder to believe?

Thank you so much for wanting to help ease my mind.:hug: I just can never forget what I saw. I wish I could believe that such things are simply urban legend, but there is so much sickness in this world that just cannot be denied.

If I was fooled I would be very glad. I hope that was the case, though I can never completely believe it was faked. You had to see it to understand how different it was from other films.

Peace and hope to you Atman,
V

[lukasahero]

83. I must admit I find it rather confusing

that people are defending this type of material because "it's not real". So the idea that a film made for "the sole purpose of killing and mutilating the two young women in the film" as "entertainment" and sexual fantasy is ok as long as "it's not real"? Oh, I know, I know, that makes us the "thought police" but come on, doesn't anyone see the danger in this?

"I think it is more of a case of it never being talked about." The whole "thought police" argument is largely responsible for that. We can't talk about it. The people who like it don't want to and the people who don't aren't allowed to.

"There are sick, sick people out there. I shudder to think how many." And we wonder why women live in fear.

[mongo]

102. Does that mean that films like "basic instinct" are dangerous too?

Hollywood movies have far more realistic violence than any porn, and most have an element of titilation to them too? Are they dangerous, or is it only a problem if the sex is real and not simulated?

[lukasahero]

109. FWIW, I find the violence in current movies

and video games equally dangerous. YMMV.

[Mnemosyne]

124. Thank you for the great points lukasahero.

Why is it so hard for many to accept?

It is no wonder that almost every woman I know has been raped. Rape is epidemic in this country. My daughter was attacked twice in three years and suffers terrible PTSD. Just morons that wanted to show their power. The second time it was vengeance against her for calling the police on a gangster. He and three of his friends did a home invasion of the apartment my daughter was house-sitting as revenge against her. She reported this one, thankfully, as her friend showed up and they scattered, but if he had not shown up when he did there is no doubt in my mind the fate she would have suffered.

One is serving 8 to 20 years, another 10 to 28? years. No remorse. The other two; one was a juvenile and the sentence was kept sealed, the last one managed a great lawyer and got off scott free because she never saw him when he was actually attacking her from behind.

It haunts her and will forever. She is still afraid that when they get out of prison they will come after her again. How can I ease her mind knowing how vengeful and without conscience these men are? I cannot, though I try hard. She has to be aware and alert to protect herself if need be, but what hell to live in for her.

These were power trips of young men, drunken in the first incident, vengeful in the second. I often think about how different my daughter's life would have been if not for these sorry excuses for human beings.

It's been ten years since the last attack and she is doing better, but it changed her deeply. She has no trust in anything or anyone except her grandmother and I now.

Your point of those films being okay because they are usually "fake" is a good one. Why is this type of fantasy against women alright in any way, shape or form?! I don't want thought police either, but it bodes poorly on anyone that could find even fake snuff films alluring entertainment.

Thanks for your input on this lukashero! :hi: I'm so glad that some understand.:hug:

Peace and hope to you,
V

[Krist]

63. No way a snuff can be rented

..you might've gotten some of those manga-based Jap flicks or 70s Italian exploitation stuff.

[Mnemosyne]

87. I hope I was mistaken Krist, but

I know what I saw.

I used to watch many horror films, other films with violence. This was different from anything I have ever seen. Even the newer violent films I've seen have never contained anything that even closely resembled what I saw that night.

Maybe I was naive and gullible, but I do not believe so, others can believe whatever they wish.

I know what I saw.

Welcome to DU.

[TrogL]

111. I saw one too

Same timeframe at a University dormitory party at 3 a.m. All doors were locked and everybody sworn to secrecy.

It could not have been faked. A med student was there and confirmed it as real.

[Mnemosyne]

116. Thank you Trogl. As you can see

there are several posters that believe I am naive and gullible.

You and I, et al, know how different these are from other horror/porn films but there is no way to explain, without gruesome details, just how one can tell the difference.

I quit having nightmares after a couple of years, but will never forget what I saw. My boss agreed after seeing it with her husband, a Korean Vet. He agreed also. My ex- is a Vietnam/Cambodia Vet and he knew what he was seeing too.

Funny how many evil sick things people have no problem believing, but something like this is so reprehensible they just cannot imagine such things to be true.

I wish I didn't know, that's for sure.

:hi:

[Krist]

133. man...

Your med friend might be mistaken.

Firstly, NO Snuff flick director/crew would willingly expose themselves to the public by allowing their tapes/videos. They'd be immediately caught and charged with murder of the first degree. So, they are usually very careful about the number of copies they make.

Secondly, comes the issue of snuff market being so demanding in UK and Germany. When someone could make a few thousand bucks out of one movie, why would they allow it to be pirated on the internet or make "loose" copies which presents no benefit and only added risk ?

So, doesnt make much sense logically.

The only snuff I've seen are the beheading videos released by Iraqi terrorists.

[Krist]

120. Snuff.... can be faked

Vickiss,

Sorry, dint intend to imply you r gullible or anything like that. Please take my comments in good spirit.

I read a news item some 10 years ago in a local newspaper, that there was a thriving market for snuff, but not in US. The market was UK and Germany. With the fall of soviet union, and horrible economy of Russia, plenty of families were broken and child sex trade became prominent along with prostitution of women. Snuff films involving Russian children were rumoured to be sold by Russian Mafia, involving homeless slavic children either kidnapped or sold by greedy parents... they were said to cost thousands of pounds, according to the reporter.

So, I cant help but be surprised that you were able to rent a snuff flick for a few bucks, when their market value is quite high.

===========

There are Italian movies like "cannibal holocaust", "Salo", etc which have a realistic snuff quality to them.

The Japanese/korean flick "Guinea Pig: flowers of flesh and blood" shows a group of men dismembering a woman, for no obvious reason. The movie was quite shocking for me, and had a snuff like feel to it.

I used to watch those kinds of stuff, but now they just bore me.

[Mnemosyne]

128. Porn always bored me. And when AIDS was finally discovered

I couldn't even watch back then without thinking about it. Not a big turn-on. lol

We're fine Krist, no problem. :hi: I can understand the disbelief that there was one in a small city video store, but things do happen that are hard to believe yet they are still true.

These films exist,and they aren't confined to a few places. Anyone involved would not ever want to admit it. Who would ever admit to participating in such a film unless they were a psychopathic killer? And those that buy them certainly have enough money to keep things quiet. I hope I am wrong, but there is no way to find out now.

I have no explanation as to how the film ended up in the video store. I've seen many horror/slasher films, this was like no other.

I hope I am wrong and it was a fake. I will never forget what I saw though, ever.

Peace and hope Krist!

V

[Krist]

130. Vickiss...

well, of course, we are fine... I just wish I could do something to put you at ease. Dont think there are any snuff flicks in US.

[Atman]

40. Man, where are you getting your porn???

First of all, I only "read" Playboy, because the pictures are otherwise pretty boring. But "porn" is a different story. It has always been about the forbidden.

Seriously, who is going to spend money for a story that starts with "It was time for Madge and Bill's usual Thursday night session, filling in the gap between "Will & Grace" and "ER," and ends with "Having awoken little Bill, Jr, Madge wrapped herself in her terry robe and crossed the hall for his midnight feeding."

That said, I think the type of occurrence in question probably has more to do with primal testosterone than inherent violent tendencies. You have 30 men in a room, sucking of the Budweiser teat, each one cheering the other on to perform. No one wants to wuss out. They all gotta prove themselves. And right there in the middle of the mess is naked 20 year old girl, who they all believe/assume/expect has been paid to get them off.

In the best of circumstances, a room full of drunk frat boys is a recipe for disaster. But I don't think you can use broad-brush diagnoses like "frustration in their lives in general" to explain it. To many, they think they're living out the sex fantasies they saw in the last porno DVD they rented, with no understanding that professional porn is as scripted and un sexy as a school play. Well, except for the naked/in & out/money shot part.

It is "out of control" behavior, fueled by alcohol, without the usual constraints of truly adult supervision. Remember, these are "kids" for whom sex has meant yankin' it in the shower while mom & dad watch American Idol in the adjoining room. Please understand, I am not attempting to excuse, only trying to explain and help understand. And not to succumb to oversimplification.

[lukasahero]

84. "with no understanding that professional porn is as scripted "

And that's the part that worries so many of us women who someday will become the victims of this lack of "understanding".

[Atman]

89. Oh, I agree with you completely

In re-reading my post I was actually concerned that it might sound like I was attempting to excuse the behavior. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I was merely trying to broaden the understanding. I think it does a disservice to us all to attempt to label the Duke participants, or any men in any similar situation, as "filled with rage against women," or whatever the phrase was. That is way too simplistic, and I think if you sat with many of these guys you'd see that they are polite, "normal" people in their everyday lives. Except maybe that guy who sent the "kill the bitch" e-mail. He's obviously got some wiring problems.

"Normal" people don't go around tackling one and other on the streets, either, but put twelve of them on a field and hand them a football, and animal behavior comes out. Now throw in naked women, lots of alcohol, and a perceived santioning by society, and it is a recipe for disaster, as I stated.

Personally, I cannot fathom why any woman would put herself in such a dangerous situation. I understand the monetary need, a little bit, but at least bring along a huge bodyguard with a gun or something! I've seen some of these "gangbang" films, and that is all that goes through my mind (well, almost)...what the hell are these people thinking? Who is in control? The only thing more dangerous than a room full of drunken men is a room full of drunken frat boys.

[lukasahero]

92. Right back at ya Atman

I agree with you - especially this: "The only thing more dangerous than a room full of drunken men is a room full of drunken frat boys." I didn't think you were excusing these guys. I was, in fact, just using your words to highlight a point we often have trouble getting across in the porn discussion: the de-sensitization factor that creeps in.

I pretty much agree with you about it being too simplistic to label all rape as "rage against women", although I do agree there is an element of that to it. I think it's far too complex a topic to wrap up so neatly. Even those who suggest that only sociopaths rape, while trying to do right, discount the scores of men who are always described as such pillars of the community once their crimes are exposed. It may be semantically correct, but it leaves too much out.

Re: the guy who wrote the email? I'm thinking Eddie Haskell (just a hunch but I'm betting you're old enough to get the reference). In fact, I'd go so far as to say that most of the "boys" in question here are perfectly polite, responsible, respectable "boys" - when they're around their parents or other authority figures. Most abusers are. I believe most serial killers have been discovered to be. Why not most rapists? Now that's a scary thought we live with isn't it?

Re: putting oneself in a dangerous situation. I will forego the kneejerk reaction and assume you are not "blaming" her for having done such. The fact is that for women, being married to a man CAN be putting yourself in a dangerous situation - just ask any woman who is a victim of marital rape. Going on a date with a man IS putting yourself in a dangerous situation - most rapes occur between familiars. Being 80 years old or 5 years old can be a dangerous situation.

Short of taking our lead from the middle east cultures that hide women behind burqas and lock them behind doors, just being a woman IS putting oneself in a dangerous situation until and unless we stop the violence. Changing the behavior of women is not the answer. Changing the behavior of men who rape, men who feel entitled to a woman's body, men who do not or will not stand up to their brothers in defense of a woman attacked is the only answer.

[Atman]

98. Correct, I'm not blaming her at all

"assume you are not "blaming" her for having done such."

I meant, quite literally, why is a woman knowingly entering a room full of drunken men with the full intention of performing sex acts on them? The scenerio is dangerous enough as it is, without the aspect of booze and voyeuristic/exhibitionist sex.

I am all about free will, and therefore don't necessarily agree with those who say "no woman should have to do that for money." Correct, no woman should have to but some do by choice because the sexual climate has gotten so lax these days, what with the advent of web cams and video cameras. And that makes it even more dangerous for the vast majority of women who do not want to be involved in such behavior, because men are generally such assholes. I hate to admit, it is often tough to champion my gender. I am often amazed at the attitudes some of my friends display, and I tend to think that they're more showing off some sort of false bravado, thinking that is the way they/we are expected to act. And that is where it all starts. What we teach our boys. What they see in the media and video games. But we've been saying this since I was a child, and yet, things don't seem to change. Men often seem to be devolving. I wish I knew what the answer is. I have two boys, and being an artist and having worked in the women's fashion industry for a several years, I've been surrounded by and worked for women (and gay men) most of my life. So I've done everything I can to transfer my tolerance to my sons. I guess all we can do is teach our own children well, and hope their attitude rubs off on their less-enlightened peers.

A lot to hope for, I suppose.

Thanks for not knee-jerking!

[lukasahero]

108. Again we agree

So much enlightenment in your posts - what a pleasure to actually discuss this stuff.

I agree that no woman "should have to" do that for money and I agree that it is a free choice made by some (albeit what I consider a dangerous and often damaging choice but I recognize it is a choice). Wouldn't it be wonderful if our young people felt optimistic and confident enough that they could earn a good wage without having to sell their bodies (or drugs in the case of many young men)? That's the root of why young women "choose" to do this: it's the best money they can make. Same as young men who sell drugs: it pays better than McDonalds.

It still comes down to what we teach our children. And by that I don't mean strictly what parents individually teach their children. Like you, I mean the media, television, movies, music, video games and yes, even (gasp) porn. But I think we have failed our boys and in doing so, failed our daughters. We told our girls that they could do anything they want, we just failed to tell our boys that, too - that both girls and boys could do anything they want. We still encourage the "gender wars", now more than ever we encourage the "he who dies with the most toys wins" attitude, and we foster and reward the competitive, dominating spirit over the cooperative in almost every aspect of our lives.

I don't have the answers either. I know what we have done isn't working. Yes, we've been saying some of these things since I was a kid and the animosity seems to be getting worse, not better, to me. Some men and women ARE devolving. And those that aren't are sometimes too quiet in the face of the bigotry and hate.

But ftr, I am encouraged by the involvement of many men I know in women's rights issues. Those who will stand up to the "assholes" amongst us. Yeah, I get discouraged sometimes when faced with the daily barage of insults by those who should know better. But then sometimes, someone comes along and stands up to the idiots and my faith, as fragile as it is, is restored. We can only continue to fight.

PS - "And that makes it even more dangerous for the vast majority of women who do not want to be involved in such behavior," Brilliant. Thank you.

[NashVegas]

50. It's Taking Some Nasty Turns

No pun intended.

With usenet, porn of every variety is easily available, although ISPs are doing a much better job of getting rid of kiddie porn groups when they crop up.

One time I stumbled into a bdsm binaries group. You hear people in the "scene" throw around words like "safe and consensual." What I saw was consensual, but only because of the mental manipulation that goes into getting people to drop their boundaries to the extremes.

As we leave more taboos in the dirt, we raise the bar higher on what constitutes taboo. For people who are, by their nature, drawn to the forbidden, things are becoming more dangerous all the time.

[Iris]

56. and yet, whenever there's a thread about porn on DU, anyone having the

slightest qualms about it is shouted down.

[mongo]

105. And why is it

That anyone who counters the anti-porn propaganda that is frequently posted to DU, is accused of "shouting people down"?

[Iris]

118. Because they do?

Every "porn" thread I've ever seen runs about 2 to 1 that porn hurts no one at all.

[mongo]

104. Nice to see someone who know nothing about consentual BDSM

trashing it.

You have no idea how BDSM is practiced in real life. In so many ways, it is MORE egalitarian than conventual dating/sex, because of the level of negotiation that goes on before any scene.

And don't dismiss the idea that some people (women and men) enjoy being the bottom, and seek this out.

[NashVegas]

115. I Think I've Seen Enough, Thanks

The admittedly amateur research I've done was for the purpose of sheer curiosity. I went into it open minded. Saw the contracts, saw the "training manuals," making no judgements whatsoever until the day I saw with my own eyes, what's getting people off, what professional "masters" do and the cold calculation with which they do it.

All the negotiation in the world doesn't change one simple thing of it: objectification.

I'm not talking about the weekenders who bring out the blindfolds and the velvet rope every now and then, maybe a little spank, and think they're deviant. I'm talking about seeing someone completely immobilized, gagged, and having pins shoved underneath their fingernails. Screaming (as much as possibly with a gag-ball in their mouth), crying, all the while the guy doing it as calm as you please. Mongo, I've never been anti-porn, but this stuff is symptomatic of some very major unhealthiness. These are people with serious issues to work out, and instead, they're using the internet to promote the crap and, like you are now, telling others, "you just don't understand."

I am not dismissing that some people seek out bottomness, I'm saying they have issues.

[SmokingJacket]

97. So weird... what's going on?

Is it that what used to be thought of as "sick" is now normalized? If so, why? I agree with your theory that at least part of it is frustration with their lives... but that doesn't totally explain it, I don't think.

Another aspect -- I saw a montage of centerfold pics from the fifties to now. And the women up to about the late 80's really did look beautiful in a kind of healthy, normal way. They were smiling, and just looked human. But then there started to be these pictures of bizarre looking women -- way taller, blonder, tanner, bigger-boobed, and more artificial looking than any actual woman. Puffed up lips ready for the bj, frowning, weird props...

I mean, I'm a woman and don't enjoy porn anyway... but seeing the image of the "ideal woman" change from an actual pretty woman into some strange space alien really freaked me out.

I don't have any conclusion about any of this... just puzzlement.

[Iris]

122. I remember those centerfolds, too!

The women actually had pubic hair back then, if I remember correctly.

In fact, I recently heard about some pop star who was asked to pose for Playboy and she said if she did, she wanted a sort of retro, 70s look - with all her pubes! They said no way. (I want to say it was Madonna, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't her)

[kath]

135. So in Playboy, they're all sans pubes now? Ick - tapping into those

pedophile urges, I guess. Ick, Ick, Ick.

(haven't seen a Playboy or Penthouse since college days in the 70's)

[Iris]

140. To be honest,

I haven't seen one in a while either. I was just repeating what I'd heard about the celeb who wanted to be photographed with her pubes intact.

Honestly, I have no desire to see any pictures of othere women nakeded these days - because they are all like you said artificial. Not much to appreciate anymore. I get grossed out by the women on tv and movies who are clothed!

[norml]

136. Hefner must've developed some kind of hair phobia.

Now his girls all look the same, fake.

[Neil Lisst]

30. I rebuke all men who do violence to women, in any moment.

men don't hit women

I cannot state enough how important it is not to allow children games or imagery of violence towards women, particularly when coupled with sexual overtones.

[vickitulsa]

52. Thanks so much for voicing your rebuke, Neil.

Goodonya, mate!

[Neil Lisst]

59. I think sometimes we have to do that, to remind ourselves

this kind of thing must be societally condemned, and me have to really get behind it

[Nikki Stone 1]

34. Is there a way to get this on the home page?

This is so damned important.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. Maybe it's because your experience is so different from mine...

... that I get in so much trouble around here.

It may be fairly normal behavior for many men, but it's not for any of the men I associate with. Is it fair for me to generalize about all men based on my experience? No. Clearly, I self-select to stay away from the kind of out-of-control idiots that you describe.

I don't disagree with your appraisal of the problem, nor your assessment of the solution. I also appreciate that you aren't generalizing the behavior of all men from your experience as a dancer.

[readmoreoften]

49. No way. I have tons of male friends.

I have a lot of respect for men who respect women. You know all those guys who you self-select away from? They still exist, though.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

36. What is wrong with our culture?

I am a rarity in that I'm one of the few women I've ever known that has never been a victim. On a handful of times in my life I did some stupid things and I think there was a guardian angel over my shoulder somewhere, but what I find more fortunate is to have grown up with a dad who is and is a self-identified feminist. I have often been painfully naive just how piggish some men are because of that. Because that culture was so foreign.

I was taught women are to be cherished and respected and that type of respectful treatment is in no way negated by her physical beauty or sexuality.

Fortunately, nothing happened to me. Fortunately, my eyes have been opened in my life. Fortunately, my own teen-aged daughter is as assertive, athletic, intelligent and informed as she is pretty. I hope it minimizes the risk to know she can and is more than free to beat the shit out of any man who touches her without consent. Fortunately, my sons are surrounded by decent men who wouldn't dream of excusing these types of behaviors criminal acts.

[Krist]

66. Good question....

Same one was asked by Michael Moore in BFC.

Good luck trying to find a solution.

[Mnemosyne]

39. I'm glad you are safe now readmoreoften. I had a friend in the 1970's

that was a dancer. She was constantly being disrespected and abused. It was a good living, but I never felt that the danger was worth it for her or any woman, especially nowadays.

There are 5 sisters in my family and my daughter. 4 of us have been raped, that I know of anyway. All were committed by young men under 20, except for one incident.

There is a horrific problem.

:hug:

[Generic Other]

41. Your perspective suggests the double standard is worse than ever

How men treat the women they label "good" or "bad" largely unchanged since before our times...

[blondeatlast]

42. Men can control that urge, but control CAN take a backseat to alcohol,

peer pressure, testesterone, and sheer stupidity.

The burden is on the men to influence each other.

If an average man can get a LAP DANCE in a club and control himself, then the urge is ABSOLUTELY controllable--and no clear-thinking person can argue that.

Your experience is so valuable. Thank you for sharing it.

Kicked and STRONGLY recommended.

Another reason I love DU--so many different people with so many incredibly moving and valuable experiences.

[Bucky]

65. You really shouldn't generalize here.

Some men, maybe even a majority of men can and do exercise self control. But I'm telling you from all the guys I've known and from all the stuff we say to each other when yall aren't around... for a big percentage of men a lap dance is really a sort of gateway drug leading to rape. And for most of them it's not because booze, peer pressure, testesterone, and sheer stupidity kick self control out of the driver's seat. It's because the guy chooses to throw social restraints out the door and uses the booze to fuel his impulses. We shouldn't allow any comments that depict rapists as victims of external pressures. They're criminals of the worst sort. A rapist chooses his label.

[blondeatlast]

79. See rosebud57's reply below. she makes the same point

I'm making and she has direct experience with it.

[Sawber1001]

43. Thanks for posting

your story.

Sadly, it's not surprising. :o(

[roseBudd]

44. I had the opposite experience, and I did it a lot longer...

I never did private shows only group parties. My theory is men don't want to whip it out in front of their friends. I can count on one hand the times somebody dropped their pants and it was always flaccid because they were drunk. I think gang rape occurs among select like minded men and the attendees of a bachelor/birthday party aren't that close. bachelor parties usually have future inlaws present.

I did see the grossest thing at a rugby party though. They passed around a shoe and they all spit in it and then the last one drank it.

However I have definitely had my clothing stolen, drinks poured on me, and was pinched really hard once.

Edited to add I almost forgot about the ahole who threw my cassette tape in the toilet.

[readmoreoften]

47. It depends on when and where you work. In what era and area.

I danced for 3 years solid, in the late 90s, but stayed in the sex industry for 7 years. There are many differences between feature performers, bachelor party girls, club dancers (pre and post gentlemen's clubs), topless, nude, etc.

Bachelor parties outside of clubs, in certain areas, as an established "performer" with attendant bouncers will have a different experience than a girl who just got into the business, some guy gives her his card and says "Hey we need a dancer for a bachelor party this weekend." It's also different if you're forced to work bachelor parties within your own club. At the club I worked (which was so successful they dwarfed all the neighboring clubs) we were required to work bachelor parties during our shifts. The guys paid $50 a head to be there and we saw none of the money. It was a disaster usually. No, the guys don't usually "whip it out" in the middle of a party. That usually happens in the champagne court.

There are some set ups where women work as dancers there whole lives and have a wonderful time of it. There are other set ups where women are beaten down in horrible ways. Instead of judging the industry as a whole (as good or bad) I think it's better to say, "what are the conditions that make it bad and good for whom?"

I find that dancers themselves are usually the least sympathetic to victims of abuse. There's a "I must be smarter than that dumb bitch who went and got herself raped" mentality that baffles me. Or, funnier, the "I'm more virtuous so she got assaulted" mentality. It's a defense mechanism.

[geniph]

45. Without even realizing it, people indoctrinate their kids every day

Talk to women and girls about what their parents and other adults told them about rape, molestation, abuse, etc. Most will tell you about how they were taught not to go to certain places, not to do certain things alone, not to wear certain clothes, how not to act/look/be. Then talk to boys and men about the same thing. Who tells boys and men in our society about using force, about consent and non-consent, about what constitutes abusive assumptions about women as commodities?

Most people don't mean to indoctrinate their children with the unspoken assumption that rape is the victim's fault, but they do. Simply by telling girls what THEY need to do or not do to prevent it, and not telling boys emphatically and unambiguously what THEY should or should not do, they are reinforcing the mindset that rape is the fault of the victim.

It starts so early, teaching boys that they can and should compete with one another in everything. Then you turn a bunch of hormonal 19-year-olds loose with alcohol, testosterone, one-upmanship, competitiveness, and a naked female that they feel they "own" because of a financial transaction, and watch as their carefully taught competitiveness becomes violence.

Most men and boys understand that using force on others to get what you want is wrong. Most men would never hurt another person, certainly not someone smaller and (presumably) weaker. Most men would never rape. But we are not being clear enough in setting boundaries for acceptable behavior. There are boys and men who grow up lacking in empathy, who do not see women as full human beings, who do not have a problem using force and violence on others, especially in a group situation where they feel they need to outdo other males.

[readmoreoften]

48. awesome post

I always wonder with these "rape prevention courses" that focus on women holding their keys between their fingers. Better to spend the time teaching boys to value females as human beings.

[wickerwoman]

70. I agree completely but I think entitlement is a huge issue too.

I remember back during the Kobe Bryant trial a number of DUers defending him because once she was in that hotel room all bets were off. I don't remember the exact details but I think mid-intercourse she told him to get off her and he refused. We had men here furiously arguing that once a man starts, by God, he's entitled to that orgasm. It doesn't matter if the woman is in pain, or freaking out, he gets to get his rocks off as soon as her legs spread and to hell with how she feels.

I was also watching a documentary where a teacher asked a group of high school students what first came into their minds when she said the word "sex". They brainstormed for about twenty minutes before the teacher said "Nobody's said 'love' yet" and all the students groaned.

So few young people (men and women) today seem to understand that sex is mutual and is about connection and understanding. Especially many young men seem to see sex as something women "give up" or "give out" and, if the woman is percieved as breaking the rules, something that they can take. Think about how sex is often presented to young men- as something they are lucky to get away with, or something that they have to earn (by paying for dinner or by winning a football game.) They have a sense that sex is a payoff for a game whose rules they only dimly understand and when they perceive that those rules have been broken (because the girl took cash instead of dinner, or because the girl didn't go all the way after he paid $70 for drinks) they take what they think of as *their* prize by force.

This is certainly not true of all men. Some young men seem to get through adolescence with respect for women intact and an understanding that sex involves two people- not masturbating with extras, but honestly, in my experience you have to look pretty hard to find men under 25ish who know a damn thing about sex.

[LostinVA]

90. MANY DUers excused Kobe and said it was the victim's fault

That she was lying, trying to get money, teased him, was a slut, etc. It disgusted me. I didn;'t post for a while during that....

[geniph]

112. Very well put

That's exactly what I was trying to say - some men think of sex as something they are entitled to, either by virtue of the fact that they are ABLE to take it, or because they think that's women's purpose in life, or because they bought the woman a dinner, etc. And it all boils down to not teaching boys that women are separate, equal beings with their OWN entitlement to physical and emotional safety and security, who are entitled to make their own choices as to when and whether to engage in intimacy.

[Iris]

74. Actually, I'd say some families do even more to perpetuate this athlete

worship. I've seen people dress their baby daughters as cheerleaders in college towns. Basically, they begin teaching them athlete/hero worship at a very young age. In Salon, there was an article where girls were quoted as saying that the lacrosse players were "cool" and "hot" and "gave the best parties" - and why wouldn't they think like this when they've been indoctrinated at a young age that the ultimate man is a man who is a "sports hero".

[geniph]

113. Right, and one does not deny the hero or demigod

their "entitlement" of sexual favors from young women. Once we elevate these young men in status to where they actually believe they have MORE rights than others, then it becomes a natural progression to taking what they want, when they want it.

[Iris]

117. well, not only that, but if she's "lucky" enough to "catch" one of these

guys, she sure as hell isn't going to tell anyone if he abuses her, physcially,emotionally, or sexually.

[vickitulsa]

141. I grew up in a sports-worshipping family...

in addition to having been molested and abused by my father -- who happened also to be a State Trooper. Talk about a guy in a powerful position! That's why I said elsewhere that abused daughters are receiving what amounts to "training" to prep them as victims of rape in their future.

And my high school boyfriend/fiance, whom I married just before I turned 18, was violent with me -- yet I married him anyway. He was the all-area linebacker for a state championship football team, and he thought he was God's gift to women and a hero to lesser men.

But this same guy when we were seniors in high school once rescued me from my dad when he was all over me trying to beat me. Johnny came running from the other room when I screamed for help, he saw my dad wrestling against my leg I was keeping him at bay with, and he pulled my dad around with one hand and CLOCKED him with a big right! Dad went down -- and STAYED DOWN -- on the floor ... in his OWN HOUSE, mind you!

I thought that was the most beautiful sight I'd ever seen ... my dad being bested, holding his hands out to Johnny as if to say he wanted no more of that fight. Staying on the floor until Johnny backed off! And I think for the first time I decided I WOULD marry that boy....

Big mistake of course ... he continued the violence with me; after all, he had date-raped me at age 16 when I was still a virgin. So did I think he would cease being violent when we married? No, I doubt that was my thinking. Honestly I believe now that I married him simply to escape from my dad's house and his hold over me ... it seemed the only way. *Sigh*

But I had been raised a sports fan and continue to be one to some extent, though I like the non-violent kind best. I don't worship the "stars" as heroes or even role models for anyone, and I never let sports be for me like the Roman Circus was for citizens there, to distract them from their grim lives.

Just being around sporting events puts women in exactly the right position to be approached by men who know they are seeing ladies who may prize the "strong men" who participate in sports, though. God, what a mess we've made of our culture in this country....

[burythehatchet]

51. Thanks for sharing your story

It confirms my suspicions. I can imagine a bunch of privileged white punks, going to a prestigious university, not acountable for anything or to anyone. I hope they rot in a dark prison cell.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[helderheid]

58. I wouldn't put it that way. Our society needs to change.

[salin]

60. self deleted

[philosophie_en_rose]

61. I'm glad that you had people that cared for your safety.

It is important for women to assert themselves and care about their safety. But I feel a lot of compassion for the women that aren't told about dangerous situations or who are encouraged by seemingly nice people to walk into danger.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

[Krist]

67. Amazing story

thanks for sharing.

[emmajane67]

72. Rape and perception of women is unfortunately close to my heart

at the momment.
Aside from having had a very 'dodgy' incident take place during my own teenage years, and knowing the usual, sickeningly high percentage of friends who had something similar occur, I have been involved in a very high profile case relating to this topic.
A couple of years ago in the country I grew up in a news story broke regarding historic allegations of rape and sexual assault by police officers. After this story appeared a large number of other women came forward with similar stories and a Commission of Inquiry was set up to investigate the culture of the police force with regards to assault by officers against women, and the recourse a women has in making a complaint and the procedures which follow if the complaint is not fully and adequately investigated.
I was employed to work on this Inquiry.
I am bound by a number of confidentiality agreements and the fact the I have been witness to a lot of information that has been supressed by the courts etc and cannot comment on details of anything involved in the Inquiry.
What did become obvious to me, however, was the attitude towards women making these complaints and the wide-spread acceptance of this kind of behaviour. (Remember to start with we are talking about historical complaints here, so for us even to be looking at them the woman had to have been assaulted 20 years ago, laid a police complaint, and then fought in vain for 20 years to be heard). The 'few bad eggs' theory quickly evaporates when an entire squad 'covers up' their colleagues behaviour.
A woman has to seemingly be a Mother Theresa figure to be able to claim rape without being widely discredited. A young girl is seen as quite capable of being a little tart when faced with 3 grown men in police uniform, she must have wanted it because she wasn't a virgin.
I could go on for hours. There were criminal proceedings came out of this Inquiry which have been in court in the lst few weeks and has made this issue a raw one for me again.
I met these women, I heard there stories, I empathised with the pain they felt for 20 years, I looked after their children, I spoke to them when they just wanted to rant.
I was 21 years old, this was my first job out of university and it hit me hard, I was an emotional wreck when I worked on this. I was scared to drive my car at night incase I got pulled over and the officer knew where I worked.

I don't know what the answers are.
I think that women need to be taught at a young age to own there sexuality. To wade through the mixed messages of having great sex like in the movies and being told to wait until marriage. Confident, self-assured, educated young women is a good start.
Men need to be taught to respect women. My male friends are very respectful of women, but they are generally not blokish guys. I do not like 'alpha males' they intimidate me, they tend to have a 'frat boy' mentality.
There will always be a few sickos, it doesn't make it right, but the greivous attacks are generally the ones where a victim gets support and the perp gets found guilty.
It is the other 80-90% of sexual assault which is the problem and we, as a society need to address it. Yes, some women make faulse rape allegations, but certainly not all. And it's like flipping a coin, one person crying rape does not increase or reduce the chance of the next allegation being genuine. Most rape is not reported, and having studied the culture of the police force where I am from I can see why, but it is the culture we live in too.
It is the mixed messages about sex and violence, it is the culture of putting the victim on trial, it is the culture of 'she was asking for it'. It is many things, but it is not right and we need to address it.

[WHAT]

139. I wonder when it all starts...and why?...

a person I am close to has a problem with a 12 yo (maybe 13).

This child is an across the street person who "assaulted" her home by shooting it with a paint gun; this could be scripted as a childish prank but of course it is not. It is an act of aggression masked in a naive persona ...but, it surely won't do the child any good because in five short years he could be going to jail (given our prison industry...or he could become a cop given our cop industry) never the less, it won't be productive for the career criminal or cop. What a waste!

From what I've been told/seen, the parents are complicit in the aggression of the child...because, they were within hearing-shot (funny choice of words) of the child calling the neighbor lady's dog a bitch while looking at the neighbor lady. Also, the boy was known to be saying "that ho is so horny, that's why she's so grouchy" ...in reference to her protestations of being targeted by childish pranks. Twelve years old, maybe thirteen!

These pranks happened when the mother was absent, probably gone to the only social gathering spot with-in 20 miles, the local tavern.

Both of the parents seem to be aware of the child's behavior and seem to condone it, if not promote it.

So much talk seems to concentrate on the example the father sets but how is the mother complicit in encouraging the action of her son in the aggression of other females? I get confused by this, but, I tend to think both the male and female are involved in promoting sexual violence of the male against the female. As individuals, they each have their own agenda for acting as they do. But, there are so many instances of the female complicit with the brutality enacted by the male...that, I tend to think social mores supersede gender dynamics. Why?

An interesting footnote,, the labels applied by the child...bitch, horny ho, seem to echo those voiced by dominate men from the community group...specifically, one I know for a fact has homosexual tendencies...evidenced by him associating with a male friend of his dressing as a female...and associating with this male friend as a female and "fooling" everyone in a small rural setting.

So, there is confused sexuality, a pugilistic, defensive masculinity, a child acting-out for the parents (achieving or establishing a hierarchy?). And, ultimately, an end-game that youth will pay for...by choosing to become a cop or a criminal (close to power, the nuances are muddled at thirteen).

The whole deal seems crappy for all, to me...men, women, society...the defined strong or weak, everybody. But, I don't know what to do. And, what infuriates me is that it doesn't have to be this way!

[file83]

73. Two movies that depict a bit this sex industry world are...

..."Leaving Las Vegas" and "Requiem for a Dream".

LLV has a frat boy rape scene. RfaD has the private strip party at a Corporate office. I've only watched these movies once, but those scenes were so repulsive that they are difficult to shake from memory.

Thanks for sharing your story and adding perspective to this latest rape case.

[Iris]

75. Me, too. I thought I'd never be able to watch Jennifer Conelly in another

movie after Requiem without having that scene come up in my mind again. Ug. It was horrible.

[mzmolly]

78. And people here argue that women in the "industry" are not exploited?

Flame away folks.

[femmedem]

81. Have you seen Annie Sprinkles' "A Herstory of Porn"?

She comments on clips from some of the movies she acted in. At one point she says that she used to fantasize about being raped, so she agreed to make a movie with a rape scene. But when she plays the clip, you can see that she's really terrified. It's horrible to watch. Her only comment was, "I never fantasized about rape again."

Since then, she's been writing and directing more woman-centered porn. For example, she likes to focus on the afterglow. She says, "The solution to all the bad porn out there isn't no porn. It's better porn."

[mongo]

107. Nice post!

Nina Hartley recently said "A society gets the porn it deserves". And I do believe that the current sorry state of adult entertainment (for the most part), is a reflection of our repressed society as a whole.

The best way to get better porn in this country would be to legalize it (adult porn) completely. Imagine the writing and directorial talent that would flock to the industry if there wasn't the stigma.

[geniph]

114. Both those scenes were horrifying to watch

The one in Leaving Las Vegas - and the completely cavalier, uncaring attitude of the taxi driver in the next scene, knowing she'd been raped and completely discounting it because she was a sex worker - left me shaking.

[Krist]

121. Those are for kids...

Try watching -

--> The infamous gang-rape ordeal of Camille Keaton in "I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE".

--> Or the horrible rape of Monica Bellucci in the french movie- "IRREVERSIBLE".

Those are two of the most shocking scenes of sexual violence ever committed on celluloid.

Some women make their teenage children watch "I spit on your grave" to instill some kind of revulsion against sexual violence on women. What do you think ?

[geniph]

126. I've been refusing to rent Irreversible

I'm a huge Monica Bellucci fan, and I couldn't watch her mistreatment at the hands of the villagers in Malena. I think I'd be a basket case if I watched Irreversible.

[Krist]

129. ya, its hard core..

Dont blame ya.. I like her too, but hated her in Matrix-reloaded.

[GOPFighter]

76. No, we don't need to train men, we need...

...more surreptitious video cameras to catch these assholes on tape and play it to everyone they know and embarrass the shit out of them. Show it to their wife, boss, co-workers, mother, father, children, the whole community. Then tattoo a big A on their forehead for "Asshole" so everyone will know to avoid the jerk. As a man, I would just love to see these assholes outed to the public.

A young female coworker once told me that there were 5 male employees she would not get on an elevator alone with because when the doors closed they they turned into leering slavering jerks. When she told me their names, I couldn't believe it. They were nice, wholesome family men (or so I thought).

[bobbieinok]

110. not trying to flame you.....but did you do anything about what you

were told??? ...... or, probably a much better question, what could you/I/we do when told something like this about fellow male employees.....

is part of the problem that people like this know they can do this b/c no one will challenge them??

[mzmolly]

77. She's very courageous for coming forward.

I hope they toss the book at em.'

I think we need to start "training" in grade school. Not about strippers per se ;) but about the culture we breed regarding entitlement.

[paparush]

93. Better stay away from Neil Bush...

[benburch]

95. And the cops RARELY take you seriously when you make these allegations.

I know this because I've been a sexworkers rights activist for many years now.

What is amazing about the Duke case is not that it happened, but that it was ever investigated. This happens ALL THE TIME and never gets investigated.

[porphyrian]

96. The men who hear you aren't the problem.

I don't allow any sort of rape to go on in my presence or with my knowledge, and I don't associate with people knowingly who do. Yes, rape is a problem. Yes, it is worse than many realize, especially in situations where men pay to be sexually aroused as it makes many men feel they're owed compensation for their money beyond the standard contract. But saying that I am somehow responsible for the behavior of the kind of men who rape women is like my saying that you are responsible for women who continue to date these men. I think that, like with cops who see only the worst of people for most of the day, you are probably seeing more of the rapist-type men because of the dancing. That's not to diminish the problem of rape at all.

Contrary to your suggestion, I would say women are in the best position to stop male rapists, as they are the ones most likely to witness this behavior in these guys. I'm not saying blame the victim either, it's just that I can't recollect a single instance of any guy, friend or stranger, talking about participating in non-consentual sex with anyone ever. I know a disturbing amount of women who have been raped, usually by family members, and I personally prevented a situation that may have become one at a party that got out of hand, but none of the guys I associate with think anything about rape is OK. The guys who need to hear you aren't going to be hanging out with me and my friends any time soon. Aside from passing them in public, I may have no contact with them at all.

Edit: spelling

[Gregorian]

99. Thank you for an very important post.

As a man who was raised around women, and as a man who respects the rights of women, I believe your idea is really important. I has to be done properly. I can think of too many ways it could be done improperly. Like most of what we do. It would have to be an entire movement. Not just something entrusted to some stupid government agency. This is a fantastic roots kind of movement.

Respect. Respect. Respect. Respect. That's all I can think of right now. I'm just so dazed that it should even be a topic. Respect is surprisingly missing from much of humanity. I find it incredible.

[Blue_Roses]

100. amazing story--thanks for sharing

I often think of Jodie Foster in the movie, "The Accused" and that horrible rape scene when discussing priviledged frat boys. I can remember a few when I was in college who did the same thing. Football players too.

[judaspriestess]

101. why are these young men being called "boys"

like they are young little naive children they are at a university.

I keep hearing them being called that by the media everywhere, what a spin and of course this is a pre-requisite for blaming the dancer, complete utter bullshit.

if these "boys" do turn out to be implicated, then try them as what they are MEN not boys

[LostinVA]

106. Personally, I call them boys because men don't act like this

Men are mature and respectful of others.

But, I get YOUR point... and I agree with you.

[alphadog]

119. I'm sorry, but...

This statement is just hyperbolic garbage: "This is fairly normal behavior for many men."

It's hard to take the rest without a grain of salt with that statement in there.

Perhaps it's fairly normal behavior for men who regularly frequent strip joints, but you're tarring men with way too broad a brush.

[geniph]

127. Many does not imply most

and there are many men for whom that is true. What constitutes "many" is the part that's open for debate. To me, even 1/10 of 1% is "many" - that would be millions of men total.

[LisaL]

123. I got a feeling it's going to be same old, same old.

No one will go to trial, etc. Athletes are rarely prosecuted for rape, and successful prosecution is even more rare.

[norml]

137. I've never gone in for such entertainment, maybe because I'm cheap

maybe because I'm turned off by the whole stripper look and culture.

The surgeried, shaved, beached, and encrusted with makeup bimbo look may appeal to some drunken sado/masochist looking for a clown to humiliate and be humiliated by, but it gags me.

I much prefer the hairy hippie girl next door look, and I'd much rather do simple pleasant uncomplicated things with them.

I'm just freaky that way.