I'm gonna come out and say it: I think Harry Taylor was a plant.

[The Witch]

There's a number of linguistic and other clues that his question of the president was previously thought out and memorized, and there are a number of choices that make me think this was not written by someone who is truly upset with the presidency.

Let's go to the transcript, boys and girls.

Please notice how all sentences have complete thoughts and many have subclauses. Notice the parallel structure.

Q You never stop talking about freedom, and I appreciate that.

He even starts off with a set-off praise.

But while I listen to you talk about freedom, I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges, to try to preclude me from breathing clean air and drinking clean water and eating safe food.

Thought #1: He sees the Presnit assert his right. Assuming that such a right exists.

Thoguht #2: Look how well he has broken the issues down into categories. It's all perfectly parallel.

To tap my telephone.
To arrest me
...and hold me without charges.
To try to preclude me from breathing clean air
...........................and drinking clean water
...........................and eating safe food.

It's like Rita Dove poetry.

If I were a woman, you’d like to restrict my opportunity to make a choice and decision about whether I can abort a pregnancy on my own behalf. You are –

Very few pro-choice thinkers use the word "abort" as a verb. We talk about ending a pregnancy, about terminating it, about having an abortion, but not aborting a pregnancy. At least to my ear it sounds wrong.

Also, please note "opportunity" and "on my own behalf." These are not words we are likely to use. These paint it as a selfish decision and a privilege, not as a tragic choice and a right.

THE PRESIDENT: I’m not your favorite guy. Go ahead. (Laughter and applause.) Go on, what’s your question?

Q Okay, I don’t have a question.

Whoops.

Anyone who really is upset with the President would have a million questions. Or they would be visibly angry and unable to keep this as calm and measured (dare I say scripted?) as this. I really feel like this fellow is what they want the Democrats to be-- disagreeing, but subservient and unwilling to challenge... but always willing to suck up, for lack of a better phrase, if they can at least have the chance to speak.

What I wanted to say to you is that I — in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency, by the Senate, and –

Again with the parallel structure.

never(More ashamed of)
nor(more frightened by)
my leadership in Washington

It is so well crafted!

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Booo!
THE PRESIDENT: No, wait a sec — let him speak.

Oh, look who is the hero standing up for free speech! Is this a teen movie? Because everyone knows this scene in the teen movie. It is a Compassionate Leader who allows the Dissenting Voice (TM).

Q And I would hope — I feel like despite your rhetoric, that compassion and common sense have been left far behind during your administration, and I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself inside yourself.

Not to me, mind you. Not to the public. Just let me be your Jiminy Cricket and I will remind you to say I'm sorry to God at night -- and you won't ever have to say it to me or anybody else whose lives you've ruined.

And I also want to say I really appreciate the courtesy of allowing me to speak what I’m saying to you right now. That is part of what this country is about.

And he ends with another praise.

Q And I know that this doesn’t come welcome to most of the people in this room, but I do appreciate that.

Just in case you didn't get it.

THE PRESIDENT: Appreciate –

Q I don’t have a question, but I just wanted to make that comment to you.

By the way, did you notice he doesn't have a question?

In closing: These aren't the telltale signs of, say, lurking freepers. They're the hand of a more subtle language worker.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope this guy just thought a lot about what he would say if he were able to ask a question. But it's hard to believe someone who has "never been more frightened by" the government as it is controlled by the man he's talking to would have not a single challenge in the singular position he is in.

Your thoughts, please.

[iconoclastic cat]

1. He's most likely not. A Kos poster spoke to him (allegedly).

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/6/21185/97610

[Gold Metal Flake]

6. jhwygirl is a plant.

OK, so I was wrong.







Maybe.

[The Witch]

8. heh. well, i just looked at it linguistically.

Besides, these guys are good at their acts. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong.

[Gold Metal Flake]

21. Well, I was not saying you were wrong...

I was saying that my two earlier posts today suggesting the guy was a plant were wrong. Maybe.

Yup, these guys are good. Very good at being very bad.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. Thank You For That.

Not everything is conspiracy. This sounds like a really good man with great intentions and heart that deserves all of our support and praise. I'm glad Kos put it into perspective like that and it was great additional info.

Sounds like a true american. It's just a shame that this criminal administration has committed so many acts of dishonesty, spin, deceit and illegality that some now cannot do anything else other than cry conspiracy or a set-up at the drop of a dime. Can't blame em. They're probably more often right than not. Just a shame though, this is a good guy, and god bless him.

[boobooday]

2. And one more thing, Mr. President . . .

Edit: okay I'm changing it. I did think he was incredibly smooth. Even if he was genuine.

I would have been far more . . . well, I don't know. I wouldn't have been articulate, I suspect. :-)

[roguevalley]

44. a doctor pointed out once that when bush speaks about what he

cares about -war, death, killing, saving his own ass- he can suddenly be articulate for a moment. when it comes to things he doesn't care about -empathy, loss, other people- he's the twisted bastard you usually get.

[BootinUp]

3. I only read half

but I disagree, I think it was real. You could see he was a little tense especially afterwards he wanted to hit ol dubya. :)

[BootinUp]

16. deleted

[crispini]

4. Man, if I had a rant I wanted to deliver to the POTUS,

I'd make damn well sure it was the most eloquent, most well-thought-out rant in the history of the freakin WORLD. And, no, I wouldn't have a question either -- I'd just be all telling him, "dude, you're an asshole" in the most politest and intelligent way possible.

[mark11727]

29. Either that, or go all "Rude Pundit" on Chimpy's lying ass...

:evilgrin:

[tavalon]

5. Yep

Rove's still up to his usual tricks.

You'd think he'd be spending all of his time picking out a dream team of lawyers, but no, he likes to tamper with the minds of the little people, so far below him, he can hardly see them. I swear I think Rove has a God complex.

[CornField]

7. I only had one thought

Karen Hughes.

[niyad]

9. dailykos says he is for real. and a good many of us are perfectly

capable of speaking in complete, coherent sentences (even though we have spent the last three eternities listening to * mangle the english language).

Somebody who is saying what most of us are thinking--who actually got to have this come out to that strutting peacock, and we can't even take a few minutes to savour the delicious pleasure of it? I wonder why that is.

should he prove to be a plant, who would look the worse for it?

[me b zola]

11. I've had the same thought

Not just about this guy, but about those other "hard questions" that he has taken recently. It just seems like a way to put out talking points in response to the anger that most of the nation is feeling about certain subjects.

[DancingBear]

12. One word makes me think he was not a plant

The word is "ashamed".

Not a prayer in hell Rove would let the word "ashamed" be in there.

"Disappointed", "concerned as to why you are doing this", "I don't understand why", "upset" - all of those are fair game "plant" words.

"Ashamed" is not.

[rodeodance]

18. yes, Taylor said some devestating things.

[TomInTib]

19. That is the key word.

When I heard him say that, I expected him to be assaulted.

[Beelzebud]

13. I have an extra roll of tin foil if you need it.

[no_hypocrisy]

14. Playing Devil's Advocate: assuming you're right, what benefit did *

get from allowing a plant to publicly flame him, read him the Riot Act, etc.?

Remember this is the guy and his gang that screened their audiences from re-election to Social Security "reform" and threw out people who arrive with "controversial" messages on their T-shirts. How would this escaped freedom of speech moment make * look like a fair-and-balanced president?

Explain please.

[Lindacooks]

32. The chimp looks like he DOES listen to dissent and criticism.

That's the benefit. There's been so much in the media lately, especially in editorial cartoons, about all the yes-men blivet surrounds himself with. So to set it up so he looks like a reasonable person and a defender of free speech defuses that.

[Sydnie]

15. If a poster at KOS could find him and call him, why haven't one

of the skeptics here tried that?

[rodeodance]

17. No, not a plant. He wanted to make a statement so he practiced it.

[Zen Democrat]

20. No way Rove & Bush wanted this articulated on national TV. No way.

No. 1 - I don't have a question for George W. Bush, either. He doesn't tell the truth. He doesn't have any wisdom or illumination to add to anything. I wouldn't have a question for him.

No. 2 - If I were going to "ask him a question" or make a comment, I'd work it out before hand and get in as much criticism as possible.

Now, do you really, really think that Rove would set someone up to say they are AFRAID of the government and talk about illegal searches and seizures?

What would they be going for if that were true? Pity? They already have the support of the pitifully ignorant.

However intended, this was not good for Bush.

[kentuck]

22. I wouldn't think so...

I would be surprised if we find that Harry is not a Democrat...

[yardwork]

55. I think he's probably a Republican who is disgusted

I think he got into the invitation-only crowd because he probably has good Republican credentials. We're heard from a number of Republicans who have finally had enough here on these boards.

I think it was legit. I'm sure he wrote and practiced it carefully.

[Quantess]

23. I think it's likely he's a plant..

How could a true dissenter have sneaked into the pre-screened audience?

By letting the supposed dissenter speak, * gives the appearance of being (somewhat) open to criticism. Appearance is everything.

[Raksha]

36. So Shrub didn't seem quite as incoherent as he usually does.

Big effin' deal! It's going to take a lot more than that to get his approval numbers out of the toilet (if anything does). Do you think most people even noticed? Mostly they were focused on the fact that Harry Taylor spoke for THEM (us). So if the whole thing really was a Rovian scam, it backfired big time!

[Jane Austin]

24. "Very few pro-choice thinkers use the word "abort" as a verb"

That jumped out at me, too. It's jarring, and I, at least, would either say "end" a pregnancy, or "choose to carry a pregnancy to term."

Seems like it would be easy to find out who he is.

[Scott Lee_]

25. With all due respect,

I think you've over-analyzed this event, and created a phantasm out of it.

[kentuck]

26. Welcome Scott Lee_

I agree with you...

peace

[Jim Sagle]

27. Paranoia will destroy ya. Snap out of it.

[Roland99]

28. Thank you for eloquently pointing out what I suspected

*'s response was too detailed and too well-spoken given his clumsy oratory skills for this not to have been staged.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. Your point is why I found the exchange suspect.

Bush was too good in his replies. He doesn't do well with unscripted challenges as a rule.

[mimitabby]

57. it's because he doesn't listen

Harry could have said "your father slept with Saddam Hussein and your mother killed your first brother"
and when it was all over, all gw could say was "did i look good?"

he wasn't listening and didn't care.
what was important is that WE heard Harry.

[rniel]

31. If he was

I am just not able to see how this helped bush.

[marions ghost]

33. well I can understand

your questioning this, OP....we don't know where the truth is anymore.

If it were found that this guy were a plant I wouldn't be particularly surprised. But I think it's possible that Harry just practiced his somewhat stilted speech to overcome the nervousness of publicly criticizing the Commander-in-Thief.

On the other hand, gotta admit the president handled it very slickly, playing to his audience. It's possible he has practiced what to do in case of ANY negative comment, which these days could come from within a favorable audience. But practiced only in a general sense. I'm don't think he's a good enough actor to have fully rehearsed it.

It's hard for me to believe that what happened casts Chimpy in a positive light. The statement was very cutting--especially the "ashamed" part. But most of us don't think like his delusional followers. Maybe they saw it as brave and inspiring (and therefore it could have been staged for that effect).

I'm willing to say, at this point, I'm not sure. I'd have to see another interview with Harry.

[SmokingJacket]

34. I think you're a genius.

This is them trying to control the script. Bush's unpopular -- they can't deny that -- so instead of real dissent they're going to have this controlled dissent, where the president can stand up and take it and "allow his freedom of speech."

Step two is to show the president "winning back" guys like this. Or maybe not, maybe this is a way of separating Bush from the rest of the republicans.

Heck, you might be wrong. But you've convinced me.

[The Witch]

37. I *hope* i'm wrong.

I hate to think about how cynical this government has led me to become. I'm the girl who likes to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

BTW, I KNOW you're wrong about me being a genius. ;)

[timber84]

40. Witch

I'm in Charlotte and can very easily access Mr. Taylor. What do you require to prove to you that he is no plant?

[The Witch]

42. Nothing! I'm mortified already!

I went on the basis of the quote only, I wasn't aware of the interviews or ANYTHING when I posted this! Why it had to stay alive for 24 hours much less get kicked to Greatest I have no IDEA!

[timber84]

43. sorry, hey we all change our minds from time to time

that's what makes DU a great place to be. Don't sweat the small stuff!

:loveya:

[SmokingJacket]

56. Hey, it was a great analysis.

And, no kidding, it's weird he didn't have a question.

I don't watch the teevee, so this is all second-hand to me... maybe I should shut up.

But I always think it's best to err on the side of suspiciousness!

[KansDem]

35. Time will tell...

Let's see if George the Torturer will have any more "unscripted" townhall-like forums any time soon.

[dogday]

38. Take a look at this link, lots of info on him-You may change your mind

http://www.the-freedom-group.org/

[The Witch]

39. Oh, GAWD! Why'd this have to go to greatest NOW!?

I can't edit it anymore - I didn't know about the Kos article nor were there any followup interviews with the guy when I posted this! Usually I'm so excited when my posts go to greatest, but this time I want to hide in a hole!

:hide: :hide: :hide:

:yoiks:

[dogday]

41. It's ok Witch, don't worry about it

these threads run faster than caca through a goose, we miss them all the time... It's kewl..

[SiouxJ]

45. I don't think he was a plant but

I think it was a calculated decision by Rove to let him speak. The shrub, surrounded by his idiot supporters, (with ear-piece firmly in place) and he lets this un-threatening looking guy stand up and speak his mind. He probably thought Shrub would come off looking like the strong one. Taylor was pretty soft-spoken. I'm sure they wouldn't have let some loudmouth stand up and do that. Shrub almost looked excited that the guy was challenging him, that's why I think they LIHOP. He probably rehearsed his stand up comic routine over and over the night before.

They had to use a real guy or it would have looked horrible later when it came out who the guy was. But they just picked someone not terribly confident looking to challenge him. At this point Rove is thinking they have nothing to lose by trying some unorthodox strategies. Sure it could backfire but really, what have they got to lose at this point?

[glitch]

66. That's just what I posted (two minutes later than you). nt.

[wildeyed]

46. I don't think so.

GreenInNC knows him. I know GreenInNC in the real world. I believe him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=170x6727

And actually, Harry Taylor looks really familiar to me, too (I am from Charlotte), so I might know him from various local groups, although not by name.

[rudy23]

47. I don't know what I believe yet, but maybe they thought it would benefit *

not only to show that he can handle criticism, and advocate free speech and debate

BUT

maybe they thought it would diffuse the tenion coming from the left. If they could show someone standing up and telling * EXACTLY what frustrated Democrats have wanted the chance to say to his face for years (I know I have), and show * handling it nonchalantly, maybe they thought it would take the air out of our tires.

I honestly don't know. I was suspicious at first, but with all the other bad news coming out that day, it made * look so bad, I can't see why they would do something like this. Could they be that dumb?

(heehee)

[glitch]

48. He may not have been a plant, but the fact that they let him speak may've

been staged. Bush responding to a dissenter, from stage and completely surrounded by his supporters, would be a safe enough bet for them to take on him. Especially if he'd been coached.
But if so, it back-fired. Harry Taylor is the one who spoke truth to power. He is the one with the guts.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

49. nice linguistic analysis... but craft, courtesy, and memorization...

...don't equal fraud-speak. Just that he's a much more patient person than the rest of us.

[EVDebs]

50. A great question would be about outing Brewster Jennings the CIA front

Valerie Plame Wilson worked for. How does screwing up that covert operation enhance national security in any way ? It doesn't. Just more collateral damage to national security by the Leaker-In-Chief.

[Iowa]

51. Self Delete

[katty]

52. Concur-after going over it repeatedly-he was a plant...too perfect

[Marie26]

53. He's not a plant

He is a resident of Charlotte, NC & well-known in the local community. A friend of his told me that they've played together at some folk concerts & he's a great guy. Y'all are being paranoid.

[The Witch]

70. yes i know

please see my post entitled "My GAWD" upthread

[apollo56]

54. I don't think he is a plant - just enjoy and why even wonder?

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

58. At one point I wondered if he was a plant because of Bush's face in the

cutaways - grinning like he just couldn't wait to reply, which made me wonder if he had a prepared response. But maybe he was just grinning because he had most of the crowd on his side and could afford to play the Big Egalitarian.

Al Franken broadcast from Chapel Hill, NC today and had on a NC congressman who said he was surprised that Taylor wasn't screened out because he had picketed some local GOP politician's office a few weeks ago, and the screeners must have been aware of it. I'm guessing it's all part of the attempted humanization of George Bush...five years late and a trillion dollars short.

[Swamp Rat]

59. Not a plant - Harry Taylor shamed Bushler publicly, which for sociopaths

is a really bad thing - they hate to get caught and then have to deal with it publicly. I really doubt Karl Rove would want a 'public shaming' to happen in front of so many x-tian supporters..

Harry Taylor was brilliant in his delivery in that he had Bushler PRAISING his freedom to speak because he could not truly answer the charges without stumbling all over himself. Bushler found the easiest way out of the situation by upstaging Taylor, earning his one brownie point before ending the dialog.

But the damage was already done - SHAME ON YOU BUSHLER!

:)

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. So, I'm thinking if Mr. Taylor was for "real" Pinhead** would have

replied thus, "Who cares what you think!" I think he was probably a plant.

[malaise]

61. It doesn't matter

Bush is a lame fugging duck.

[warrens]

62. Time to switch to decaf

Even if he was a plant, it backfired.

[The Witch]

68. I hate my life.

See my reply with subject line "Oh GAWD"...

[Neil Lisst]

63. I still agree with your OP, Kitchen Witch, in spite of the ready cover

In things like this, it takes time for a story to come out. There are dozens of freepers here at DU who could get some other freeper at DU vouch for him. I don't consider the reports thus far to be dispostive of the issue. I don't care who called him on the phone and talked to him.

The language he used seemed written to PERSONALIZE the complaints, instead of make them generally from Americans.

I find this language convenient for Bush because it makes the critic the problem, not Bush:

"I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges," instead of "you assert your right to tap Americans' phones, to hold us without charges."

It appeared scripted, and not to hurt Bush, to help him.

[The Witch]

69. The Witch is not Kitchen Witch and i wouldn't want Kitchen Witch

to be tarred with the same brush as me right now :yoiks:

[Neil Lisst]

72. oops. You know what they say. All you witches look alike!!

:) sorry

[Jose Diablo]

64. It looks scripted to me

The language and on another thread, the similarities to the Rockwell painting, that would be the photo-op lay-out. I'd say your right, it looks too professionally laid-out as a 'home town' meeting. Right out of a movie set. Down home imagery to create a sense of 'free speech' in action. And all this right after the recent news of Bu$h stepping on the 4th amendment.

It smells of Rove. But how to prove it?

[Cleita]

65. You make interesting points and they are plausible

especially when it's this administration that is in question. They are dishonest and will do anything to sway the discussion.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

67. ATTN: Harrry: Member of MoveOn.org and "Operation Democracy "...

For those of you still suspicious of Harry Taylor, please read thw following email I received from MoveOn.org. He is the real deal:


The budget event in Charlotte, North Carolina was led by a small business owner named Harry Taylor. Harry's a leader of his local "Operation Democracy" team. Operation Democracy is MoveOn's network of committed members who organize events to ensure that Congress and the media pay attention to what local folks have to say —but Harry took it to the next level.

As you know, President Bush often holds "town hall" events where he takes questions from a hand picked crowd of "real people." Yesterday one of the people was, well, real.

In a hostile room, with the attention of the national media focused on him, here's what Harry Taylor stood up and said to the President of the United States:

HARRY TAYLOR: You never stop talking about freedom, and I appreciate that. But while I listen to you talk about freedom, I see you assert your right to tap my telephone, to arrest me and hold me without charges, to try to preclude me from breathing clean air and drinking clean water and eating safe food. If I were a woman, you'd like to restrict my opportunity to make a choice and decision about whether I can abort a pregnancy on my own behalf. You are—

PRESIDENT BUSH: I'm not your favorite guy. Go ahead. (Laughter and applause.) Go on, what's your question?

HARRY TAYLOR: Okay, I don't have a question. What I wanted to say to you is that I—in my lifetime, I have never felt more ashamed of, nor more frightened by my leadership in Washington, including the presidency, by the Senate, and—

AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Booo!

PRESIDENT BUSH: No, wait a sec—let him speak.

HARRY TAYLOR: And I would hope—I feel like despite your rhetoric, that compassion and common sense have been left far behind during your administration, and I would hope from time to time that you have the humility and the grace to be ashamed of yourself inside yourself. And I also want to say I really appreciate the courtesy of allowing me to speak what I'm saying to you right now. That is part of what this country is about.

When we saw this story on the news, we checked to see if Harry was a MoveOn member. That's when we found out he was also the leader of an Operation Democracy team in Charlotte.

This is what MoveOn is all about—millions of us working together to bring the basic progressive values of fairness and decency back into American politics. Sometimes we make waves by the thousands, and sometimes we do it one at a time. But no matter what, we're all in this together.

If you're not already part of the Operation Democracy network, we'd love you to join the team. You can sign up online at:

http://political.moveon.org/opdem/?id=7281-109428-brYiNIGaO4amqKJ1rMtiPA&t=3

[Cleita]

74. I'm delighted that he is the real deal even though

I thought the OP had a valid point.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

71. I think not. He was a citizen voicing his concers quite eloquently.

[Gabi Hayes]

73. deep cover? double agent?

it could happen

[republicansarewhores]

75. I'm gonna come out and say it:

You need to take the tinfoil hat off this sitting.

RAW

[Fenris]

76. Locking

Per the OP's request.