Why are we getting involved in the immigration debate?

[Craig3410]

Face it, ever since, well, long before the US was a country, we've been hating different looking people. Let's see now; we hated the:

-Irish
-Chinese
-Jews
-Blacks
-Japanese
-Mexicans
-Indians
-Italians
-Russians

There have been problems in this country forever, and instead of looking for the root cause of the problem, the majority populace has simply blamed everyone that didn't look like them; for god's sake, in the late 1800's people were saying that the Irish were overrunning our country and everything we hold dear and they're going to destroy our country! And they didn't, did they?

I'm not even going to bring up the fact that if you're not 100% Native American, you don't get to bitch one way or another on immigration.

(Sorry, watched a video about intolerance in Sociology, and what I saw done in the name of intolerance made me almost vomit.)

[AndyA]

1. Immigration is a decoy issue. Just like the gay marriage thing.

Keep your eye on the REAL ISSUES: Bush lying, Iraq, Iran, corruption, cronyism, the selling off of America to foreign governments. That's where we're really going to get them.

[leftstreet]

2. Here's Senator Byron Dorgan's (D-ND) take on it

DOBBS: Senator Byron Dorgan calls today's compromise a cave-in to corporations that want cheap labor. Senator Dorgan will join us here.

Senator, thanks for being here. I think most of us were taken by that spectacle of watching the Republican leadership, the Democratic leadership, before cameras today hailing this breakthrough. You're unimpressed?

SEN. BYRON DORGAN (D), NORTH DAKOTA: Well, I'm not impressed. I mean, look, this is the corporate strategy in this country now and Congress seems to be embracing it. The corporate strategy is export good American jobs and then import cheap labor. That might be good corporate strategy, but in my judgment, it's not good for the American worker.

There's all this discussion about immigration and immigrants. There's very little discussion about the American worker. In my judgment, they also have a very big stake in these decisions that are being made here in the Capitol and there's very little consideration given to the American worker.

DOBBS: I have been saying for some time that the American working man and woman, the middle class is the least represented group in all of Washington. It sounds like you do agree.

DORGAN: I sure agree, absolutely. I mean, this so-called globalized economy, you know, there's this export of American jobs wholesale to China and Indonesia and Bangladesh, and now we hear the president and we hear leaders of the Congress say, well, you can't get Americans to do these jobs, so we need to import cheap labor.

The fact is, there is a price at which Americans would do these jobs but this Congress has not increased the minimum wage for nine years. Why? Because they want cheap labor that bottom for corporate decision makers, and so that's what is happening.

We're keeping American workers down, low wages, losing retirement benefits, losing healthcare benefits. That is not a route, in my judgment, to economic expansion in this country for all Americans.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/06/ldt.01.html

[pitohui]

14. a smart cookie this senator dorgan

the more i hear from him the more i like

[Cobalt Violet]

27. I agree with that.

:hi:

[Speck Tater]

3. I don't have a problem with Immigrations, BUT

I do have a problem with illegal immigration. Are we or are we not a nation of laws? Is Bush above the law? I don't think so, so why should an illegal immigrant be above the law?

I have a genuine concern about people who are being paid under the table and not paying taxes, yet who expect services supported by those taxes. The only other alternative, if we are to avoid hypocrasy, is to throw oopen the borders to everyone and just do away with all immigration laws. That just can't work. So we have to draw the line somewhere. We might as well draw the line at our existing immigration laws, and enforce them.

Sure they have it rough in Mexico. People have it rough all over the world, but how much charity can we offer until we break our own budget and end up not even being able to take care of our lawful citizens, more and more of whom are having trouble making ends meet?

When we are all prosperous thre's no need to blame anybody for anything, but when lawful citizens are hurting economically, they WILL look for some scapegoat. That's human nature, unfortunately. Good intentions won't solve that problem. Only a healthy economy with low unemployement will solve that problem. But that's never going to happen under the corporate sponsers of the cheap-labor Republicans who are the one who stand to benefit the most from the influx of cheap labor.

[Craig3410]

8. Yes, I am against illegal immigration.

But the most obvious way to deal with it, heavily fining corporations that hire them, is the best way to go; if we simply kick them out the country, the corporations will simply hire different illegal immigrants and start the process all over.

Now, if they find that if they are illegal, they can't get jobs, then why would they come here?

[BrklynLiberal]

4. Because many of us are lemmings..

[Bridget Burke]

5. Making Immigration a CRISIS!!! distracts people....

From other subjects more dangerous to the Republicans.

Yes, the topic is worth discussing. But it's amazing how much xenophobia is showing--even here at DU.

[OutsidetheBox]

7. Xenophobia = Ignorance + Fear (with a little sheepleness sprinkled)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Same old story. Bullying the powerless is a "traditional American value".

It's an appeal to fear. Xenophobia and racism have worked for politicians since the Mayflower landed the first "illegal immigrants".

[YouthInAsia]

9. i dont HATE the mexicans. But they are here ILLEGALLY and

since we are a country of LAWS I believe thses laws should be followed. Unless we choose to selectively enfore our laws (depending on the desperation of the criminal?) if we do, let me know, I need $10,000 and a new car.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Amen and thank you thank you thank you

I am so sick of hearing that 'but they are breaking the LAW!!' crap I could just scream. You are right, that is freeper talk.

All you law and order types need to be worrying about el pretzeldente and the laws he is breaking - at least half as much as you are freaked out over the brown skinned people coming across the border illegally. Jesus Christ on a matchstick, let's get our priorities straight here.

[AZBlue]

24. So since the President does it, it's ok for everyone to do it?

Either what the President does is wrong and should be stopped - for everyone. Or, what he does is ok and we should abolish all laws. You can't have it both ways. And, I for one do not aspire to be like this President!

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. That is not what I said

I am thinking about priorities. What concerns me the most is the law breaking dickhead in the WH. I also think it will be easier to go after him than to deport 12 million.

This immigration debate is great big distraction. El pretzeldente is not the least bit concerned about illegal immigration, but his cronies know that they it will excite us and distract us from what our agenda SHOULD be.

[YouthInAsia]

30. are they or are they NOT, by strolling across the

border BAREAKING THE DAMN LAW? yes they are. Period. What would you call it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. I would call it wanting to feed their families

and being willing to do ANYTHING to provide for the ones they love. That's what I would call it.

[YouthInAsia]

36. Fine. Then what if MY family was starving? What would you

permit ME to do in order to feed them? Would you mind if I broke into your home and stole some stuff? No? But I'm hungry. How about bank robbery? Selling drugs? I know a few ppl who sell drugs to feed themselves. I understand WHY they do it, but do I boo hoo all over the county when they get arrested? No, they were breaking the law and they pay for it by going to jail. Is this permissible?

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. So you are equating crossing the border illegally with selling drugs and

bank robbery and burglary?

LOL

[YouthInAsia]

46. Im saying that they are BOTH illegal activities. And if ppl are

going to say we should excuse the illegality of crossing our border because these ppl are "desperate" then why couldnt we ALSO excuse such behavior as drug dealing and robbing someones house/a bank, etc under similar circumstances? Thats the point im trying to make. No more, no less. :)

[YouthInAsia]

29. So we should just allow them to flood across the border

then? According to your statement, I shoyldnt have to obey ANY laws, right? Fuck it. Since women couldnt vote and we had slaves at one point and becuase the govt decided to torture people, then I, too, should ignore all laws. I'll try that one in court.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Nah just let em starve

Besides, there are 12 million Americans who want those jobs earning below minimum wage.

[YouthInAsia]

35. Thats the whole point!

By allowing all these illegals into our country, these greedy corporations dont pay AMERICAN CITIZENS the wages they deserve. The corporations whould be pnished as well. But to just turn a blind eye to people who have obviously broken the law is completely unfair. Where do you draw the line? So its OK for people to come over the border cuz they're "starving?" Fine. Then is it similarly OK to allow someone to rab a bank cuz they, too, are starving? You cannot selevctively enforce laws based on someones supposed "desperation." If you do, thats a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line?

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. Well I can't let people starve

The Democratic Party I joined way back when was all about helping people and championing the causes of the poor and less fortunate among us. That other party was the one the selfish folks joined.

And I still say that making illegal immigration as wrong as bank robbery is nuts. And it's RW thinking.

[YouthInAsia]

44. I'm not saying let them starve. But to say that they're not here

ILLEGALLY is wrong. That's all I was saying. :)

[Bridget Burke]

12. besides, they dont speek INGLISH guud

Some of us are just wondering why this has become the most important topic at DU.

Doesn't the latest revelation about Bush conflict with that "country of LAWS" slogan? Shouldn't it be "Nation of Laws"? By the way: How many countries have NO laws?

[Beelzebud]

37. Be prepared.

I was called a racist a bit ago for saying the reason we focus on mexico is because millions of them are here.

I didn't even state my position. I just said that was the reason the focus was on them. I guess to some that is just being an evil racist.

I can feel a DU break coming soon for me... Unfortunately.

[AlphaCentauri]

39. HELLO! are there other immigrants braking the law?

looks like there is a priority to enforce the laws against Mexicans only.
Wonder why many try to associate the term illegal with the Mexican ethnicity?.

[enfield collector]

10. legal immigrant here, I came to America to be an American. Unfortunately

too many of the illegals have no intention of joining the melting pot like I did.

[Bridget Burke]

13. People can be good Americans AND retain pride in their roots.

It's really not very complicated.

[OutsidetheBox]

15. Are you kidding me?

How can you speak for tens of millions of immigrants? You think because you came here "legally" you can generalize about those that weren't as lucky? I guess you are special because you are here "legally". Excuse me. Guess that makes you superior. I guess you aren't from Mexico because if you were you would have never gotten here legally. The quota, yes quota, for Mexicans is exceedingly low and very difficult to circumnavigate. Fact is every immigrant joins the melting pot, whether they want to or not. Yes, it is harder for the first migrants, but for the later generations they are as American as apple pie. Don't confuse cultural identity when under attack to having "no intention of joining the melting pot".

[AlphaCentauri]

41. They may have not the same opportunities

as other immigrants have

[bush_is_wacko]

16. Not immigration. ILLEGAL immigration and I'm involved because

it has become normal to in my neck of the woods to see people fleeing the scene of an accident in droves before the cops can arrive because they are here illegally, can't even get auto insurance and fear deportation. That is just ONE of the economic effects ILLEGAL immigration has on our economy! Illegal immigrants are overcrowding our prisons, driving down incomes, driving up health costs, you name it they are affecting it!

All I want to hear my Congressmen/women say is that they are ready to crack down on EMPLOYERS everywhere. If ILLEGAL immigrants can't find employers willing to employ them they will go back home on their own. Any employer who can't pay a working/living wage doesn't belong employing ANYBODY.

[sandnsea]

17. Give them drivers licenses

So they can get insurance. There are solutions to just about any illegal immigrant complaint.

Your last line is where the focus should be. Sadly, too many people continue to allow themselves to be manipulated into keeping the focus on the immigrant. As long as people argue over legal or illegal, the focus is OFF the employer, just like corporate America wants.

This is a worker exploitation issue, all workers, all over the world.

[OutsidetheBox]

18. Brownies make convenient scapegoats....

The history of the US is littered with the native population making scapegoats of immigrants, blaming them for everything, finding them convenient to throw all internal problems at. While we are at it, let's blame illegals for invading Iraq, for creating such a disaster, for meth use among mostly white citizens, for Republicans and damn it, for electing Bush, twice. Blame Jose and Pedro for all our ills, they are the source of all our misery. Never blame the corporatists or the idiots that vote against their interests. Never blame corporations and politicians that don't care for you or I. If it makes you feel better, go rent Cheech and Chong and you can throw spit wats at Cheech. Go burn a Mexican flag because damn it, it is all their fault! Myopic black and white is a dangerous combination to have.

[bush_is_wacko]

23. I don't recall placing a racial profile on my illegal immigrants.

I really don't care what race they happen to be. And I am sick to death of people who refuse to realize they effect our economy. They DO effect our economy. I ALSO said I don't think they deserve to be punished. I think EMPLOYERS deserve to be punished. PERIOD. The problem will correct itself when EMPLOYERS (White, Black, Oriental, Cuban, Mexican, Italian, German...) are punished for employing ILLEGAL immigrants.

[Beelzebud]

38. Don't worry. The racism charge is on a hair trigger lately........

I AM "brown people" and was called a racist today. Go figure.

[bush_is_wacko]

45. Thanks for reminding me that some people will never get that this isn't

about "race" it's about restoring our economy and our working environment. Make them all legal as fr as I'm concerned, but in doing so make sure they not being paid "under the table" so that they don't pay into our tax base and that they can afford and qualify for auto/health insurance, blah, blah, blah.

JUST MAKE THE EMPLOYERS DO EVERYTHING ABOVE BOARD OR PUT THEM (THE EMPLOYERS) IN JAIL! I honestly think the immigrants will then take care of the rest.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. They can't get insurance because they can't get

drivers licenses.

Why don't we persuade our states to give them licenses so they can buy insurance? That sure seems more practical than deporting 12 million people.

[Bridget Burke]

21. If they get driver's licenses & buy insurance....

They start becoming part of the system. Next step, they'll start banding together & asking for more money. Or wanting to become citizens. Or protesting!

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Take their cars away!!

It's the only answer. And then we should make them all walk back to Mexico. :sarcasm:

[SmokingJacket]

22. I hate this issue.

It's too complicated to have anything but a complex opinion about. And it feels put out here to divide Americans against each other. And distract us.

[leftstreet]

28. I like it

I like seeing how this:



has politicians running for cover and shitting themselves.

How much longer can they walk that tightrope between representing the interests of labor, and representing the interests of the corporations that own them?

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[SmokingJacket]

33. Well, I like that part.

But I have the creepy feeling this could ultimately help the repubs -- maybe I feel this way because I've seen so much division here on DU... don't know... but I don't trust Congress to do the right thing (whatever that may turn out to be).

[leftstreet]

34. Yeah

creepy is a good word

I wish the Dems wouldn't have introduced ANY kind of legislation. Instead, let the Sensenbrenner bill/protests fuel the Repub divisions for a bit.

[Cleita]

40. Because RoveCo wants us to.

That takes the focus away from them and all the trouble they're in.