How religions affect us

[question everything]

There are many threads on DU debating whether liberals, or DUers, hate people for whom religion is an important part of their life.

For me, the jury is still out. I think that it was religion that instilled in people the command to care for widows and orphans, for the sick and the poor. Yes, today all of us feel like that, but I think that we got this through earlier generations and at some point it was a sense of duty, because this is what "god" demanded.

But we know that religion has contributed to many wars and millions of wounded and dead and displaced people, as well as ruined homes and communities.

Certainly as liberals we sometimes reject the notion that a religious belief should dictate our actions and policy since such cannot be debated - which is the root of democracy.

And all of us are alarmed at the spread of religious extremes across the globe - of all the monotheistic ones, at least. We are scared and object to any group of people telling us how to live our lives because this is "god's commands." (And one can wonder whether the god of Pat Robertson is the same as the god of Muslim suicide bombers).

I try to understand that proselytizing is an important aspect of many religions. Still, it bothers me that so many demand that we convert to their religion. Christians used it in the past and now it is the Muslims.

The main damage that religions have been doing, I think, is the way they affect individual people, the way they prevent them from living healthy, free thinking life.

I once had a friend who told me that he stopped going to church and to confession. I consider myself a decent guy, he said, and I don't see why I should go and confess for sins that I have not committed, or subject myself to heaps of guilt.

About 10 years ago I saw a made for TV movie about life of Catholic women in Australia, I think. And one woman, with too many kids, was given birth control pills. And I remember a scene where she was in the bathroom, holding those pills, full of terror about the sin she was about to commit.. and flushed them down the toilet.

And we know how people are frightened that they will end up in hell because they do not follow a certain doctrine.

And today I read a really sad letter in the Dear Abby column:

http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/?uc_full_date=20060407

FEAR OF COMING OUT CAUSES MAN TO WITHDRAW FROM LIFE

DEAR ABBY: I am a 23-year-old male. Ever since I was in middle school, I have been dealing with the possibility that I might be a homosexual. Today I no longer think it's a "possibility." I know it's a fact.

For years, not a day has gone by that I have not had homosexual thoughts and urges. I have dated a few females to try to "change," but those attempts have been unsuccessful.

I am depressed, confused and angry with myself. I am becoming reclusive. I have withdrawn from most of my classes in college, and I don't want to socialize with people. Sometimes I think my life is over before it ever began.

I come from a religious family in south Georgia who believe that homosexuality is a sin and God will punish gays. In my part of the country, homophobia is everywhere. If I ever told anyone what I am feeling, I could never show my face around here again.

I keep asking myself whether or not my life would be better if I told people that I am a homosexual. I am beginning to believe that if I come out, my life would be better. I'd do it now, but I couldn't stand that my family would be disappointed with me -- and I don't want to lose what friends I have left. I also can't bear the thought that my religious community would condemn me. What would you do if you were in my situation? -- CONFUSED IN GEORGIA

DEAR CONFUSED: If I were you, I'd accept that my life wasn't working and I'd probably come out. However, I am NOT you. If you come out to your family and friends, it's important that you understand that you will change. It will be better, but it will also be different. How close can any of these people really be to you if they don't know who you are?

Before making up your mind, I urge you to go online to www.lgbtcenters.org and locate some gay and lesbian centers where you can get counseling. (Atlanta might be a good place to start.) You can't hide forever. With emotional support, taking such a big step will be easier.

P.S. Eventually it might be better if you move to a more diverse community to complete your education and begin your new life.

[DanCa]

1. I do not hate religion I hate anti stem cell pro lifers.

There I said it. I dont care if someone goes to church, I go to Church. What disgust me are the embryo lovers out there who want to keep me crippled in a wheel chair because they are against stem cell research because of their religious view points. A procedure I might add they know nothing about and when I offer to take them to a real stem cell lab they just walk away.
.
I have young onset parkinson's disease and I feel no one's god or government has the right to deny me hope in the form of a cure. Hope that I pray that Jesus would send me in the form of advanced genetic medicine. But all the right wings loons do is laugh at me, keep me out of their church, and call me unchristian because of their love for the beloved embryo.

I have been to stem cell labs . I have seen the great care scientist take to preserve the cells. No one "creates life just to destroy it. Thats an insane and unfounded right wing shock and drivel tactic.

So to restate my position I donot hate Christains just the pretenders who dont want me to walk. Hmm the fundie bible believes in an eye for an eye don't it? How about I take a baseball bat across their knees so they no what its like to stay in a wheel chair and be laughed at or at worse pittied.
Thats all I got to say - sorry for the vent.

[njdemocrat106]

2. I pretty much agree with you

I think these fundys literally equate their preacher's words as the words of God, without really looking at and considering these issues at hand, such as stem cell research. I think it's sad that nowdays that believing in a higher power is equated with being right-wing. Yes, bad things have happened in the name of God, but those who do such things are hypocrites of the highest order, and are not actual followers of God. I believe it's because of my beliefs that I'm a liberal Democrat.

[DanCa]

5. Hugs to you NJDemocrat.

Thank you for posting that. Were on the same page :hug: :D

[njdemocrat106]

6. Right back at ya!

:hug:

[Erika]

3. W's policies are cruel to the needy

He would rather spend our taxes on needless wars rather than our own needy. Without a second thought.

[DanCa]

4. Imagine if the cost of this war went to the poor and sick

If Dubya and his elk were truly Christian they/we would be their first priority.

[pnwmom]

9. My grandfather had parkinson's disease, so I know how hard that is.

So sorry you have the early onset version. I hope science finds a cure in time to help you and I agree that stem cell research looks very promising.

[question everything]

15. I am sorry to hear about your health

I hope that a cure will be found soon.

Almost every month we hear of new findings using stem cell research - some are embryonic some are adults.

The sad situation is that many have joined this battle only after they, or someone they love, fell ill.

This is the difference between us, liberals, and them. We do think outside ourselves and our family and friends. We do think about the sick and the poor and the ones who just had bad luck in life.

I don't hate religion, either, and I hope that I've expressed this. I respect the ones who feel strengthen by their faith. All I want from them is not to impose their strong faith on others.

[hunter]

7. I'm bookmarking this thread.

I also noticed the "Dear Abbey" this morning and realized I have an essay bubbling up about this subject. It'll come up in my journal when I have time.

I'll probably title it something provocative like "How Religion Kills."

You said "The main damage that religions have been doing, I think, is the way they affect individual people, the way they prevent them from living healthy, free thinking life." There's a lot to that.

[Hidden Stillness]

8. You Are So Much Better Than I Am

With all due respect, I think this whole post is rather hypocritical and naive. If you believe that the world will all be wonderful once the religious devils are removed, then you have clearly not been reading the vicious hate on some of these Duke/rape victims, etc., threads, coming from people as atheist as you are. Do you really believe that the hatred of homosexuals (and women) stems from anything other than male bigotry itself? You will never solve anything until you face the fact that violence, oppression, and all the rest that the world suffers from, is due to nothing other than male bigotry and hate. There is no change from religious to atheistic society--whether Communistic or corporate/materialistic--as to the treatment of women, gays, the poor and elderly, etc. Do you pretend that Cheney and Rumsfeld are "religious"? Are you serious? If there were no pseudo-"religious" prop to base the hatred of women or gays on, the kinds of abusive males who resort to that lie would simply flip it to some other so-called "basis," such as "you owe me," "you are embarrassing me," "what will the neighbors think," "I paid for the right," etc., which is what their attitude really is anyway.

You go to the usual arrogant posture that religions make for unthinking, cowering slaves, blah blah, (religions "dictate" our actions, etc., and "prevent them from living a healthy, free-thinking life")--presumably this is an example of the tolerant, advanced world of acceptance that would exist if all the world were like you. You don't want to face facts. When a porno-loving atheist wants to violently rape a "bitch" and feels supported by the male "culture," then you have escaped nothing. Everybody wants to pin it all on something "safer" (oh, all the horrible Christians) rather than facing the oppressor male, directly. Recently, there were several threads attacking Rush Limbaugh for calling the rape victim a "ho," yet very few comments ever, attacking black males for oppressing woman and calling them "bitches" and "hos." You cannot just "redirect" it to some smaller group, and avoid facing the larger problem.

You think atheists are so wise and free-thinking? I notice no difference at all; I also don't believe you pay any attention at all to the varieties of modern Christian liberal/radical/feminist thought.

[pnwmom]

10. Do you think this is behind a lot of the Hillary hating, too?

[Hidden Stillness]

11. The More Hysterical Attacks, Yes--Not Necessarily Being Against Her at All

I think the more hysterical attacks on her probably are--there was even a recent front page story in the New York Daily News or the Post or whatever it was--of Hillary Clinton as a puppeteer controlling "poor" Bill Clinton, bizarre things like that, still to this day. People can be for or against her--I personally think she is completely corporate and do not support her--and being against her as a candidate might be an actual opinion, but all the viciousness about how she is so "tough" where a male of the same attitudes is never called such an odd, negative thing, is obviously an opinion against women. Notice also, all the people who blithely dismiss Bill Clinton's cheating on her as "merely" "a blow job," etc., heartless and hypocritical. I wonder how casually these males would take it if their wives told them, "Oh, I just got some great head from an intern at work--no big deal!"

[pnwmom]

12. yes, I meant Hillary haters -- not those who would vote against her in

the primary. Preferring another candidate doesn't make a person a hater, but there are people on these boards who despise her. And, since she is actually one of the more liberal people in the Senate (9th out of 100 according to the stats at progressivepunch.com), I've often wondered where this hate comes from.

[question everything]

16. Wow.... are we talking about the same thing?

Where did you get the notion that I think that I am better than you are, or better than any one else, for that matter?

Yes, the three main monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam are male oriented. Before them, when people worshiped earth, it certainly had a feminist characteristics. When people worked the land, the feminine traits of giving birth and nurturing were the most important ones. But once people became hunters and gatherers, the women stayed behind to tend to the family and the livestock while men went out to hunt - the emphasis shifted to a male preference.

I don't think that Eastern religions are so much male dominant, but I really don't know.

No, I don't think that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are particularly religious. But they, actually, Karl Rove, has successfully manipulated the people in mostly rural areas to use their religion to vote for Bush.

And I really feel bad for the ones who were raised in such household that they cannot think for themselves, and make steps that they think they should take, because the fear of "going to hell" is so deeply ingrained in them.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. It is not religion that is the problem, per se, but rather dogma.

Dogma doesn't rely on its adherent to be a "church (other house of worship) goer," but rather find a strict adherence to the "truth" as determined by others as being absolute. I have found that dogma crosses all religions, ideals, political parties, and everything else imaginable.

When a person is unwilling to consider a challenge to their beliefs, dogma is usually the reason. However, just because someone is a strong believer in something, doesn't automatically mean they are dogmatic about the subject or situation.

In my personal opinion, the biggest issue is usually fear of the unknown.

[DanCa]

14. Can we please give Behind the Aegis an award for nailling it?.

:thumbsup: I couldn't have said it better my self.