I have decided where I stand on the immigration issue

[proud2BlibKansan]

I really spent time thinking about this and looking at both sides of the issue. I feel horribly for my friends who are construction workers and contractors. They are being hit hard by cheap labor; one friend is looking at filing bankruptcy.

But the bottom line for me is that these immigrants are HUMAN BEINGS. They aren't the bad guys in this debate; the employers are. The only sensible legislation is that which goes after the employers, raises the minimum wage and recognizes ALL immigrants for the contribution they make to our society. It is asinine to propose deporting 12 million people and arresting those of us who refuse to turn them in.

Watching that show on CNN the other night turned my thinking around. One man they profiled was a xenophobic ass. He admitted becoming angry about illegal immigration when his new Mexican neighbors refused to share recipes with him. I am still stunned by the selfishness of his newfound political activism. No way can I stand side by side with people like that and fight for a cause. Another man they profiled was married to an immigrant who is leaving him over his fight against immigration. That is just completely nuts. I don't want to side with him either.

For those of you who are concerned about your own jobs, here is what I propose - join our fight to increase the minimum wage and penalize employers who refuse to honor it. Embrace the diversity in our society that makes us the great nation we are. Be proud that so many people WANT to come here to live, so badly that they come illegally. That is so powerful.

[wakeme2008]

1. The problem is Americans are losing jobs to these immigrations because

COMPANIES are paying them less then the minimum wage. If you factor in the standard wage for a job, they are just hired for their cheap rates.

:grr:

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. I agree

Like I said, the enemy is the employers, not the people they hire.

[mtnester]

200. EXACTLY, it is our OWN CITIZENS who created this sutation...

dry up that under the table job market, put some corporate dandies in prison, and we would not have this problem to the degree we do, nor would the illegal immigrants be facing the issues being dumped squarely on their shoulders right now. Yes, there is fault there, however, the ABILITY to so READILY get work for undocumented illegals was created, and then expected, BY CITIZENS OF THE US...our own countryfolk..squarely on THEIR backs...corporate greed was the creator of this disaster for everyone involved.

It would be NICE if business owners who hire illegals spent some serious jail time..tax evasion is the first one that comes to mind that would most possibly carry more jail time than hiring undocumented illegals.

Had this situation NOT been manufactured in the first place, BY OUR OWN CITIZENS, perhaps the situation for everyone would not have been the mess it is, more people would have remained in their own country maybe and helped fix situations wherever that may be, etc.

[William769]

2. I will get flamed for this but...

There is a reason we have Immigration laws. IMHO, they are needed for obvious reasons. I do feel sorry for some of them. There are legal ways of getting here, my friend & his family from Nicaragua are a perfect example.

They left Nicaragua during that mess in the 80's & they did it legally.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. It is next to impossible to immigrate legally from Mexico anymore

That's why they are coming illegally.

[question everything]

35. This does not mean that we should reward them by making them

citizens like so many who came here legally and waited for years to become citizens.

I, too, watched a CNN story from Dallas where a young woman said that they did not come over to break the law, they are not criminal. But they did break the law, they continue to break the law.

I posted a long opinion yesterday that just disappeared, so I will say it again (put it in my journal):

Yes, they are human being and they want the good life that they cannot get in Mexico (mostly) but I was thinking of all the poor and starving people in Darfur and in Rwanda, and Ethiopia and in so many places for whom coming and working here at below minimum wages and at humiliating conditions would still be a life saving hand.

And if conditions are bad in Mexico, just think how all the - what, 10 million? - Mexicans could improve conditions there if they stayed and fought.

If we accept the reality of an underground economy let us bring, say, 3 million people from around the globe who are the real "tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. How are they being rewarded?

Eating and sleeping with a roof over your head, working a job and earning wages is a REWARD?? For what?

Wow I never realized I am being rewarded. I have a good job and a home and a family I am able to care for and it's a reward for being born in the USA. Wow. Who do I write my thank you card to?

[question everything]

157. If they become "documented" after being "undocumented"

they no longer have to hide in fear of deportation. I would say this is plenty of reward.

I don't know if you've ever lived in hiding, afraid of being caught. Perhaps you should, go rob a bank or something. Then you may understand the reward of being given a freedom and not having to hide anymore.

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. So now you are comparing bank robbers to immigrants?

This is really getting interesting.

:popcorn:

[janx]

155. You won't get flamed from me.

Our problem is that the laws we have had have not been enforced, and on top of that, we have ignored the plight of countries like Mexico. Bush promised to work with Fox and some South American leaders near the beginning of his term.

As with the Isreal/Palestine situation, he turned a blind eye.

Nothing will improve if we don't insist upon real and fair trade with Mexico and other countries. If we continue to ignore this, the people of those countries will only become more desperate. That is immoral, and it's not immoral just in terms of our own prosperity; it's just immoral, period.

[peace frog]

3. As I stated here before

I am 100% in favor of legal immigration, but 100% opposed to non-residents entering the country by any nonlegal means. The individuals entering illegally are breaking the law as surely as the unscrupulous employers who hire them illegally. To go forward in any other manner means we are no longer a nation of laws... but we've known that for about six years now.

On the other hand, this ridiculous notion of building a wall at the Mexican border to prevent the undocumented aliens from crossing into the US is preposterous, unworkable and doomed to failure. But then, this IS a Republican Congress where failure is always the first option.

I stand with you and everyone in favor of enacting a living wage law for all US citizens.

[Deja Q]

4. Once you supporters of exploitation get companies to provide proper wages

for all, then I'll consider this immigration stuff. I', not anti-immigrant. I am anti-exploitation, pro-human rights, and pro-loyalty-to-one's-country.

Don't be shammed by the politicians wanting this. They support only exploitation and slavery. Their followers must also do, or don't see the full picture.

The AFLCIO isn't on my good list anymore either. They can support this immigration bill, but until they make good on their usual rants on wage problems they are only compounding the problem. (of course, their own execs are blinded by greed too... one reason of many why they are failing in their efforts to resolve the wage problem...)

[Carni]

141. AMEN!

I say if we let this bill sail for amnesty, then let Specter's no restrictions on HB1 visas become a reality too.

Why?

I hate Specter and I think the HB1 visa thing will kill the middle class... but I also hate slave labor and until the upper middle class white collar gets a taste of what this is like, then we need to level the playing field.

If it's good for *service people* it's good for the people buying the 400 thousand dollar houses too.

[Zookeeper]

179. That's right...

A lot of DUer's are being quite cavalier about other people's jobs.

[AValdoux]

5. My husband is in contruction also

I blame the employers not the workers. We have basically legalized slavery because we have a third world country on our southern border. Here's an analogy I've used to explain to people about my thoughts on immigration,

I'm having a problem with coyotes (real coyotes, I live in the country & no I also believe immigrants are HUMANS). I build a fence to keep them off my property. That doesn't work, they are still finding a way in. So I decide to sit and watch my fences armed to the teeth to keep the coyotes off my land. That doesn't work I shot the ones I see but there are always more. Then one afternoon I'm sitting on my backporch and look at my dog feeder and realize why I'm having a coyote problem. They are coming on my land and close to my house because they are hungry and are just trying to survive like all god's creatures. When will america stop & think about what is causing immigrants to risk their lives to come to this country? US employers are basically leaving the bait out that attracts the immigrants.


AValdoux

[Deja Q]

6. !

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Exactly. With plenty of unemployed Americans who WOULD do the work, to be ignored only does harm to this country. Well, maybe not harm - but I ain't seein' any good comin' out of it...

And I mean "Would". People are summarily dismissed by a damn computer test (nobody gets to know the applpicant - which is dumb) or are deemed "overqualified" in an interview. Again, these politicians and corporate leaders who say Americans are lazy can sod off for all I care.

[Minnesota Libra]

8. AValdoux, sorry but comparing humans and animals are apples and oranges nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. You are comparing real people to wild animals?

[AValdoux]

111. I have to clarify

I'm not comparing immigrants to animals. I think my reference is about for a lot of immigrants, it is about survival. I'm not comparing the people who make the choice to come to US to animals but more to make people in the US realize for some immigrants it is a matter of survival. Why else would someone (human) risk their lives to come here? Some die trying to get here. Illegal or legal, if it put food on my family's table & the US was my only hope, yeah I'd jump a fence, most people would.


AValdoux

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. Thanks for clarifying.

I agree completely.

[janx]

162. Your analogy is fair.

We're all animals.

[janx]

158. You are absolutely right; and not only that, but they're not playing

fair with trade as far as Mexico is concerned. They are creating the conditions that attract these desperate people in the first place.

[BrklynLiberal]

7. I think you have thought this out and came to a very rational conclusion.

and, by the way, I agree with you..

But the bottom line for me is that these immigrants are HUMAN BEINGS. They aren't the bad guys in this debate; the employers are. The only sensible legislation is that which goes after the employers, raises the minimum wage and recognizes ALL immigrants for the contribution they make to our society. It is asinine to propose deporting 12 million people and arresting those of us who refuse to turn them in.

I would also add that leaders like Vincente Fox should be compelled to do something to improve the economics conditions for workers in their countries so that the workers do not feel compelled to flee their own country in order to be able to provide a decent life for their families.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Yes, Fox has just compounded the problem

Glad you agree.

[Bridget Burke]

27. Wouldn't a higher minimum wage help ALL workers?

Better workers' rights for all will help many problems--not just immigration. I've heard some workers in Indian Tech Help Centers are organizing & want international links.

Vicente Fox won't be president much longer. Even so, he had a plan for Bush at their first meeting. He proposed some kind of guest worker program & planned incentives to make Mexicans want to return home. Bush gave NO answer. Not that Fox has done so much--but inequities in Mexico are hardly new. His probable successor is from a more leftist party. Let's see what happens. (Unless the election is stolen in broad dalylight--like in 1988.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Bingo!

Yes, the right solution would benefit ALL workers.

[Triana]

112. BINGO!

V. Fox should be STRICTLY told that he is expected to improve conditions in his own country so his people can have decent lives there and don't have to (or want to) leave. Compel him - somehow. Dunno how but that should damn well be part of any immigration policy. BIG part of it.

[Minnesota Libra]

9. I don't have a problem with immigrants, my problem is illegals nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. They are all human beings

And if you are truly a liberal, this is a human rights issue.

[Minnesota Libra]

26. Yes I'm liberal but this is an issue of what's legal and what isn't nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Do you know anyone who has tried to come here legally from Mexico?

It is almost impossible. So they come illegally because they are desperate. As a human being and a liberal, I can't criticize that.

[Minnesota Libra]

46. Yes matter of fact I do - they not only tried but FIVE families came......

...here very legally and guess what, from my point of view they are openly and totally welcome. If illegal aliens would only come here legally then I wouldn't care how many came here. Don't bother telling me the immigration laws are so tough because I personally know these five families came here very legally under the present laws, so it can and has been done.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. They aren't ALIENS

That is a completely disgusting term.

[Minnesota Libra]

62. If they - from any country - aren't here legally they are indeed.........

....illegal aliens. Just as I'd be an illegal alien if I went to live in another country without following their legal immigration laws. So if I'd be an illegal alien in their country then they are an illegal alien in this country.:shrug:

Next?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minnesota Libra]

73. ABSOLUTELY NOT but of course we now have to ............

....change the subject entirely:eyes: because I'm looking at this whole issue fairly and legally. This is the one and probably only issue I disagree with fellow liberals on.

Anyway I have to get back to business so I guess you'll need to find someone else to go after.:shrug:

[Bridget Burke]

86. And just how rich were the FIVE immigrant families?

Or were they only upper-middle-class?

[Beausoir]

42. BRAVO!! You are going to get flamed for taking that stance, but I am with

you.

Calling them "illegals" or "aliens" is just plain wrong. These are HUMAN BEINGS.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Hey flame away

I am counting my blessings that I am a human being with a conscience and the ability to do something to help other human beings. I do feel truly blessed.

[saracat]

49. So are prisoners. Do we cease to call them so

as they are also human beings? Illegals are illegal.They are also human beings.Your point is?

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Do you get an image of a monstrous creature from outer space

when someone says 'prisoner'?

[Beausoir]

121. It's not even that for me...it's just that people use the term "alien"

only to hurt and ostracize. I don't even see the sci-fi alien angle to it....only the nasty motivation of the people who use it.

Undocumented immigrant works for me.

[Zookeeper]

180. "Undocumented immigrant" is not really accurate....

if you are discussing citizens of another country who are working and living here illegally.

An undocumented immigrant is a legal immigrant who has misplaced his driver's license.

[Beausoir]

196. Whatever works for you. n/t

[Devlzown]

10. I agree with most of what you say.

It's nigh impossible to load up 12 million people and bus them back to Mexico. We might as well face it -- we're stuck with each other. The minimum wage laws also need to be vigorously enforced. However, I don't understand the need for this guest worker program they're talking about. It seems to me like we have plenty of cheap labor here already. And I think it's also time to severely curtail further immigration into this country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. Yes, the guest worker program is a temporary and ineffective solution

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Embrace the immigrants and make common cause.

Amnesty, leading to citizenship, would make them just as eager to fight for decent wages as the native born Americans and invigorate the labor movement.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. I would think that most DUers would agree

At least, I hope so. You never can tell these days, though.

[Virginian]

103. Who says they want to be citizens?

It seems lately, that aliens from any country who come here for citizenship only want the privileges of citizenship, they don't want to become Americans. Many don't renounce their citizenship in the country of their birth, they only pick up an additional citizenship and have Dual Citizenship. Which passport do you think they use when they travel outside the US? Many don't want to become one of us. REALLY, If you weren't born here, would YOU want to be a part of a country that elected George W. Bush? Would YOU want to be a part of a country that believes in making war on a nation that has not attacked us first?

If we had a status that would allow foreign nationals permission to work for a fair wage in this country and accessibility to essential social services would they still want citizenship? How about saving citizenship for those who want to become Americans and have a tax paying resident worker program for those who really don't want to become one of us.

[ausus]

201. OK, we legalize them. Then what, allow another 12 million more illegals...

to come in?

We amnestied close to 4 million illegals in 1986, and then what happened? Well, the goverment (Democrats as well as Republicans) turned a blind eye once again to the flow of illegals who compete with and take jobs from the poorest Americans. I know you don't want to hear that point but it is true and even liberal oriented economists and columnists have been talking about it recently (Krugman, Kristoff, etc..)

Employers who violate the law should be fined, withoug questions, but the other part of the equation is the flow of illegal migrants, and that has to be stopped too.

The government of the United States has responsibility, first and foremost, to the citizens of the Unites States, everything else is secondary.

[Berserker]

12. Here is a website

that can help penalize employers.
http://www.wehirealiens.com/default.asp
I work construction and see a side of the immigration issue that others don't see. And yes I am concerned about my job.

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. Thanks for the website

Good luck to you.

[Ian David]

13. Here's an idea (don't know if it would work) for construction workers...

If you've lost your job because your boss is hiring illegal workers, how about striking out on your own and recruiting some of those workers from his job site to go work for you?

"Your services aren't needed here, John. I have all these illegal workers making $7 an hour.

"That's okay, boss. I understand. Hey, Jose! Pedro! Wanna come work for me making $7.50 an hour?"

Now, I don't know how hard it is to do something like that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. The other answer is to be prepared to change jobs if you have to

My husband and I have told both of our kids to make sure they know how to do more than one thing - for the rest of their lives. No matter how secure your job is today, in this economy, you never know when you may have to look for a new line of work.

[Ian David]

98. What if your High School Guidance Counselor recomends "Fluffer"? n/t

[Zookeeper]

181. Good advice, but...

it doesn't help older adults who have jobs and wages at risk, right now.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

116. Nope won't work

unless you have $$$$ to buy equipment for whatever work your doing.
I have a friend who was trying to start a small lawn care business in Chicago, this was just going to start out being a part time thing with him and a friend till they got going. The area north of chicago they were going to do this was a saturated with illegal aliens cutting lawns for business and homes. They couldn't even compete with the prices illegals charged going the same job, they would make about 2 dollars an hour after cost if they charged the same as the illegals even. My friend is still currently out of a job, because of a physical handicap the type of physical work he can do is limited and a desk job is out of the question with out a 4 year degree. The fast food joints and restaurants near where he lives are filled with illegals doing the work for low pay.

How is my friend suppose to as the Dumbshit repukes like to say "Pull himself up by the boot straps" when this shit is going on. Bush is a complete dumbfuck when he states "immigrants do the jobs americans don't want to do" here is my friend a US Citizen without a job willing to work and there are many more like him that can't find a job because companies want to be cheap asses and only care about profits so they hire illegals.

Rant to the board below
ATTENTION if anyone THINKS this post is RACIST open your damn eyes, I'm not racist and most of the posters on DU that are against illegal immigration are so because they know the whole purpose of guest worker program is for cheap labor for the major corporations. Anyone who thinks Bush is going this out of the kindness of his heart is being foolish. I can't understand slams on here against anyone who is says they are against illegal inmmigration by labeling people racist?

[Zookeeper]

183. I agree with you, Indy Dem....

There are a couple of DUers who start flamebait threads, then slap with the race card, anyone who disagrees with them.

At the same time, they never express concern for under-educated and unemployed African-Americans, legal refugees from Africa and Asia and Native Americans from the northern tribes who are most affected by the drop in wages.

[Carni]

198. Funny you should mention this

I am noticing that most kitchens have replaced their African Americans cooks and prep people with illegals...now what are those workers supposed to do?

I hate to break it to people, but not everyone is cut out to be a nurse or health care practioner--not everyone has the money to go to college, or trade school of some type to retrain (what am I saying...WHAT TRADES?)

I am pretty disgusted by the level of the *who gives a shit find another job* attitude I am seeing in some of these threads and then on top of it dissenters from this amnesty thing are having the race card dropped on them.

I don't care what race or color someone is, if they are coming in illegally and taking jobs from Americans because they will work for nothing, or running down the pay scale- it's not fair.

[mvd]

14. Here's where I stand on ILLEGAL immigration

Yes, we should guard the borders, but not become obsessed with guarding them. I don't think we need huge fences shutting everyone out. Bush only wants illegal immigration because of the cheap labor they provide for his corporate buddies. The Repukes' opposing side is just plain racist. We should balance humanity with the law: if an illegal immigrant has been here 6 months or more undetected, let them apply for citizenship. Also, don't send any illegal immigrants back that were tortured or brutalized in their home country. And there's no use deporting all illegal immigrants - it's just not feasible.

As far as regular immigration goes, it's understandable to be cautions with countries with terrorist ties.

[TahitiNut]

23. One clue should be the glee with which the corporate news media

... is covering the 'immigration' (rarely is 'illegal' mentioned) protest marches. More than ten times the coverage that the anti-war protest marches got - and those protests were mostly voters! Corporate interests want the cheap labor. Corporate interests want the war spending direct into global corporate coffers.

[Zookeeper]

185. I've also noticed....

my local paper isn't covering any counter-demonstrations. Whenever, there is an anti-war march or rally, they always manage to devote a few paragraphs (or even photos) to the handful of BushCo supporters who show up.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Sounds reasonable

I also think we should make it easier for immigrants to immigrate. It is really hard now - hence, they come illegally.

[saracat]

37. Why should it be easier for Mexicans than anyone else? Sorry.

My grandmother was from Poland and it took 15 years to get her family over here. And the direct intervention of RFK. One group should NOT be given preferential treatment over another. Mexico should be the problem of Vincente Fox, not the US. The US should help develop economic conditions in Mexico so the need to expatriate won't be so great.But we shouldn't have to welcome the enite population of Mexico while we restrict other countries access.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Why should it be harder for Mexicans?

[saracat]

44. Don't twist my words. It should be equal.

We are attempting to make it easier for Mexicans, and we allow more Mexicans than other countries. We ought not to. We need to enforce our quotas. We should use the Canadian system as a blueprint.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. No it is harder for Mexicans than for many other countries

[saracat]

59. Not really.

Know a lot of other nationalities trying to get in do you? And whatever difficulties there are are tied to the quotas. If the quota is exceeded, it is exceeded.We treat the other nations like that!

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. The Mexican immigrants I know have complained for years

about how much harder it is for them to immigrate.

[saracat]

75. But who are they comparing themselves with? Honestly, some are looking at

this as though the Mexicans are the "only" immigrents that count! I know an Australian woman who has been waiting 20 years! And she is married to an American doctor!

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. They feel discriminated against.

And after watching that show on CNN the other night, I don't blame them.

[MichiganVote]

124. Discrimination is not the issue. Immigration and illegal immigration

are the issues. If any immigrant is so discriminated against, they why come? Moreover, you're ignoring the countless people who are working at legal immigration and are stalled by a process that functions poorly.

You picked the topic of immigration, proud, mixing in issues of discrimination is a different kettle of fish.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. Why come?

To work, to feed their families, to survive. That's why they come.

Surely you realize this. :)

[MichiganVote]

134. I realize that the House Bill is equal to Mexican justice for both

legal and illegal Mexican immigrants.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. That House bill will make a felon out of me

if I help the immigrants. Like if I agree to teach their children. That is just wrong on so many levels.

[janx]

160. That's not true. I teach in New Mexico.

I have no expectations of being arrested.

[proud2BlibKansan]

164. Read the bill

Anyone who abets an illegal immigrant will be charged with a crime. They are trying to turn us teachers into immigration cops.

[janx]

171. I teach college writing here,

NO WAY. They'd have to charge the university with that crime, and I doubt that will happen.

What you are referring to, "abetting," does not equate with education, necessarily.

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. In the House bill

school employees, medical workers, social workers can all be charged with a crime for failing to report an illegal immigrant. So at my elementary school, we will be forced to ask for the parents' green cards before we can enroll their children.

I doubt this would affect you as a college professor. Public schools must accept any student who walks in the door. You most likely have an admissions process and can refuse to accept some applicants.

[Roxy66]

182. How can they feel discriminated against? Really?

Everywhere you go you see literature in english and in spanish....calling any entity on the phone, there is always an english or spanish option....and some jobs require that you speak Spanish to even apply, and these are not only regular jobs, but Government jobs as well. I dont ever recall being asked if I speak Japanese, Chinese, German, Polish....or any other language to get a job or info over the phone......Just sayin'.

Oh, and by the way we are also supplying our schools with all the services to integrate Mexican's educations...when the Schools cant even provide pencils for the kids....we buy all the supplies

[proud2BlibKansan]

190. Well if they read some of the responses on this thread

I do believe they may be offended.

One of the kids I saw at our rally today asked me if all the gringos hated his people.

So yeah, I think they understand that not all of us who were born here are welcoming them with open arms. Why do you think they had rallies all over the country? :eyes:

[ausus]

202. Where is the evidence for that assertion?

A quick google search shows that for year 1996 - and I have no reason to believe the trend has changed at all since then - more LEGAL immigrants were admitted from Mexico than any other country. Here is the source: ttp://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0201398.html

Sorry, under current trends and regulations it seems that Mexicans are favored. How much more can they ask for?

[mzmolly]

24. Indeed, we have to raise minimum wage and penalize employers

severely. However, laborers don't make minimum wage so we need to consult with various unions about what companies should pay illegals/immigrants so that wages and benefits are not driven down etc. Bottom line, unions need a voice in any legislation.

Nice post.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Thanks

Yes, unions should be at the front of this battle. Wonder why they aren't.

[Maestro]

30. Well said Proud2BLib

K&R and added to my journal!

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Well thank you Maestro!

I am headed your way this time tomorrow! Crawford bound!! :woohoo:

[Maestro]

131. I must be out of the loop.

What's going on down there? You will only be about an hour and a half away from me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

135. Easter celebration at Camp Casey

You should come down!

[Maestro]

140. Unfortunately

I'm not in a celebrating mood. Check this out please.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. I replied

What a friggin mess. Man, we have some dumb people in our business.

[NNN0LHI]

34. "I am against illegals" is a code word for "I hate Mexicans"

No one is kidding anyone on this. Bush and his thugs could declare any of us illegal with the king like powers he claims he has. Fuck that.

Don

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Good point

[saracat]

47. I disagree. The law is the law. We should not advocate breaking it.

We should enforce it. Otherwise we are no different than the Bush cabal who selectively bend and break the laws for their own benefit!

[NNN0LHI]

48. I suppose you would support busting peoples doors down for...

...suspicion of smoking marijuana then too?

Don

[saracat]

54. Depends on the circumstances. Smoking Weed is illegal.

and if you smoke, you are taking a risk. I smoked in college and was always paranoid. I was afraid because I knew it was illegal and that was the risk I took!

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. Have you ever exceeded the speed limit?

Smoked a little pot? Drove after a beer too many?

I challenge you to find ONE person who has not broken a law at least once in their lifetime.

[saracat]

55. So we shouldn't have laws because everyone has broken one?

That is just silly.

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. No, arresting and deporting 12 MILLION PEOPLE is what is silly

[saracat]

66. And I didn't say that either.

But it isn't as impossible as being stated either.We can go to the moon and build a space station yet we can't track down 12 million illegal aliens? If we had enforced our existing laws, we wouldn't have to do that. Did you know that legal immigrants have to wait over 6 years for their doc to even be examined and you want these people to get preferential treatment? If I were a legal immigrant, I would be furious!

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. No one is asking for preferential treatment

Just stop calling them aliens, help them get legal status and improve working conditions so ALL benefit.

[saracat]

74. That is preferential treatment.

If they are here illegaly, we don't have an obligation to help them get legal status. I agree all working conditions should be made better for all Americans. And the minimum wage should be raised.

[AZBlue]

36. Said safely from Kansas.....

Try living in the Southwest for 6 or more months, where we actually deal with this issue each and every day - then tell me how you feel.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. We deal with it every day here too

I teach in a school system that is bulging at the seams with kids of illegal immigrants. My grocery store, bank and post office now have Spanish speaking employees on duty at all times. Most restaurants and hotels here, plus many construction companies, are hiring lots and lots of illegal immigrants.

Don't think you are alone in dealing with this every day. Iowa has the fastest growing Hispanic population in the midwest.

By the year 2020, Hispanics will be the majority population in the USA. This immigration issue is not exclusive to the SW US. Not by a long shot.

[EFerrari]

57. What are you "dealing" with, exactly? I've lived in CA

my entire life. What's your point?

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Time to share some recipes again!

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

91. Black Bean Soup

1 lb of black beans, rinsed
2 jalapeno peppers, halved
4 cloves of garlic
1 onion, quartered (all that chopping is really therapeutic, lol0
1 bunch of cilantro
1t of coriander and cumin, ground together
1t of MEXICAN oregano
2 bay leaves
1/2 dried thyme
1/2 C of tomato puree.

Through everything in a pot with about 6 quarts of water. Bring to a boil, then simmer until beans are tender. Salt to taste.

- from Mark Miller's "Coyote Cafe"

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. LOL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Bridget Burke]

89. They must have it a lot rougher than we do in Texas....

Of course, we've seen the Mexican flag before. We've heard Spanish spoken. And we know that not everybody is Anglo-Saxon.

[huskerlaw]

69. I live in Los Angeles

and completely agree with the OP. Don't discredit her analysis based on geography.

BTW, I used to live in Nebraska and the Midwest has immigration issues as well. The southwest doesn't own the market on it.

[RagingInMiami]

188. And you live in Scottsdale

Not exactly a stone's throw from the border, not exactly a city that provides the most affordable housing for illegal immigrants either. I'm sure your neighbors are White, Midwestern tranplants. I'm sure you are too.

I spent four years living in Tempe, so I'm curious as to what you mean by "deal with the issue each and every day".

[ismnotwasm]

38. James McMurty sums it up for me

We Can’t Make It Here

There’s a Vietnam Vet with a cardboard sign
Sitting there by the left turn line
Flag on his wheelchair flapping in the breeze
One leg missing and both hands free
No one’s paying much mind to him
The V.A. budget’s just stretched so thin
And now there’s more coming back from the Mideast war
We can’t make it here anymore

That big ol’ building was the textile mill that fed our kids and it paid our bills
But they turned us out and they closed the doors
We can’t make it here anymore

See those pallets piled up on the loading dock
They’re just gonna sit there ‘til they rot
‘Cause there’s nothing to ship, nothing to pack
Just busted concrete and rusted tracks
Empty storefronts around the square
There’s a needle in the gutter and glass everywhere
You don’t come down here unless you’re looking to score
We can’t make it here anymore

The bar’s still open but man it’s slow
The tip jar’s light and the register’s low
The bartender don’t have much to say
The regular crowd gets thinner each day
Some have maxed out all their credit cards
Some are working two jobs and living in cars
Minimum wage won’t pay for a roof, won’t pay for a drink
If you gotta have proof just try it yourself Mr. CEO
See how far $5.15 an hour will go
Take a part time job at one your stores
Bet you can’t make it here anymore

There’s a high school girl with a bourgeois dream
Just like the pictures in the magazine
She found on the floor of the laundromatA woman with kids can forget all that
If she comes up pregnant what’ll she do
Forget the career, forget about school
Can she live on faith? Live on hope?
High on Jesus or hooked on dope
When it’s way too late to just say no
You can’t make it here anymore

Now I’m stocking shirts in the Wal-Mart store
Just like the ones we made before
‘ Cept this one came from Singapore
I guess we can’t make it here anymore

Should I hate a people for the shade of their skin
Or the shape of their eyes or the shape I’m in
Should I hate ‘em for having our jobs today
No I hate the men sent the jobs away
I can see them all now, they haunt my dreams
All lily white and squeaky clean
They’ve never known want, they’ll never know need
Their shit don’t stink and their kids won’t bleed
Their kids won’t bleed in their damn little war
And we can’t make it here anymore

Will work for food will die for oil
Will kill for power and to us the spoils
The billionaires get to pay less tax
The working poor get to fall through the cracks
So let ‘em eat jellybeans let ‘em eat cake
Let ‘em eat shit, whatever it takes
They can join the Air Force, or join the Corps
If they can’t make it here anymore

So that’s how it is, that’s what we got
If the president wants to admit it or not
You can read it in the paper, read it on the wall
Hear it on the wind if you’re listening at all
Get out of that limo, look us in the eye
Call us on the cell phone tell us all why

In Dayton Ohio or Portland Maine
Or a cotton gin out on the great high plains
That’s done closed down along with the school
And the hospital and the swimming pool
Dust devils dance in the noonday heat
There’s rats in the alley and trash in the street
Gang graffiti on a boxcar door
We can’t make it here anymore

When I see our elderly, vulnerable and disabled in nursing home taken care of by predominetly green card immigrants--(Plenty of jobs in the Nursing Assistant field. Too bad it doesn't pay a living wage)I always take a step back on this issue and try to look behind the red herrings they throw at us-- "Immigration laws" Well? What of them? Who is doing this hiring of undocumented immigrants? What,(or who) is creating the need, not only for the hiring-- but for the immigrants themselves coming into this country often at great personal risk. Why? Why do they come here?
My son's mother in-law hired some Latino's to do some work on her house. My Dad asked her if they were bonded and insured. Her answer? "It doesn't matter, they're invisable"

[jukes]

51. regarding lost jobs in construction:

thank reagan's "right to work" and the stingy assholes that hoped to save "union fees" for this, not the immigrants.

when there were unions, ONLY union workers cd work in construction. union workers were trained, and buildings were made to much higher standards.

undocumented workers COULD NOT join unions or work on union job sites.

i don't blame undocumented workers for trying to feed their families; i blame dominionists for breaking unions and lowering the standard of living in this country.

as for the radio "talk show' host that wants to snipe "illegals"; he's lucky he's just talk. "coyotes" are better armed than him, & some ACTUAL military trained Americans might take exception to his stance.

[Jokinomx]

53. I agree completely....

I was also torn on this issue. Both sides have meaningful arguments. My mind was made up while watching a news program that had sent a crew to the other side of the boarder. They interviewed a couple with three kids and the father explaining how difficult it was to make a living that supported his family. He would head north for 6 months to a year and then return for a short visit then turn around and do it all over again.

We all are just trying to survive and I have to say, that father has every right to do whatever it takes to survive. At least he wasn't stealing to make a living.... or selling drugs... he just wanted to have a job and the only place to go was to the U.S..

Go after the employers not with just fines... but jail time....tighten security along the border and start processing the illegals that are here for work permits with the possibility of citizenship sometime down the road.

That is my humble opinion.....

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Glad you agree

[mdmc]

61. thanks for the OP... peace and low stress...

[Beelzebud]

64. I had an epiphony today looking at protest pictures.

I saw one of a young child holding a sign that said: "No HUMAN is ILLEGAL".

The tears came, and my own selfish bigotry collapsed like a ton of bricks off my shoulder. I'm getting chills right now typing this.

It's not the people we need to worry about. It's the GOVERNMENTS of the US and Mexico.

I 100% support these protest now, and I 100% support a Mexican's RIGHT to seek a better life!

I see it now. They won't sucker me in to being a bigotted racist. First I criticized these protests, BUT I WAS WRONG!!!!!

RESIST
FIGHT
WIN

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. Glad to hear that

For me, it was listening to the crap coming from those opposed to the immigrants. Heard that kind of talk in the 60s too - about black people.

[Beelzebud]

84. I want to be on the right side of history.

All it took was the face of a child, holding a sign that told the TRUTH.

I'm ashamed of some of the things I said last week...

[saracat]

133. I had an ephiphany too. I resent people who are not citizens

dictating to us what our immigration stance should be! I don't like when America intervenes in the soverienity of another nation and I don't like it when other nationals intervene here. And I don't care what side of the issue they are on. This is our decision to make.

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. Well I am a US citizen

and I want them to stay. So do a ton of other gringos who were at our rally today. That is my decision.

[saracat]

139. And you have the right to try to influence us with your opinion.

But I resent hoarded of non citizens swelling the ranks of marchers to influence American votes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. How do you know they aren't citizens?

This is what kills me about this. I work with these families. I know many many of them well. And even I don't know if they are citizens or not. I am not going to ask either. The few who have confided in me are so scared about being deported I doubt they went to a rally today.

So please, how do you know who is legal and who is not?

[saracat]

146. On my local TV , in the SW, many were interviwed and said they were!

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. Oh well that's it, then!

Maybe we should have TV stations all over the US go out and interview Hispanics.

[saracat]

167. You know what , just give it up. You don't even want to know if these

people are illegal. You admit that. I do care. I don't believe in open borders. Perhaps you do. And I do not believe illegal immigrants should have the same rights and benefits as citizens. I guess that makes me one of those that put "America first'. I am more concerned about our borders and our jobs. America is a nation of immigrants but mostly of immigrants who had enough respect for this country to get here by obeying its laws. I don't give immigrants a pass because they might not be accepted into this country if they were to legally apply. We have a right to refuse to admit certain persons. Illegals don't have the right to say, I need a job, so I don't have to wait in line or abide by a quota.
Immigration is what made our country great, but only because it was controlled and administered. No good can come out of this request for chaos!

And many well intentioned liberals are being snookered. This is the Republicans issue to distract us from the war and the latest Bushco blunders! Notice it is the Repukes calling for amnesty to benefit their coporate overlords. You can't seriously believe this is about poor Hispanics?Why else would the MSM be promoting this when they didn't even cover the anti war marches? You watch. the administration will be pointing out how 'humanitatian' they are by advocating amnesty or a guest worker program!

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. America is a nation of immigrants who STOLE it from the Native Americans

What kind of respect did they have for the people who lived here when they arrived? Tell me, how did Columbus respect the natives he encountered?

How much respect did our ancestors who bought and sold slaves have for the African people they kidnapped and traded like we now trade agricultural commodities?

How did the US respect the Sioux when they STOLE the Black Hills from them? How has our govt continued to respect them as they have taken several BILLION dollars worth of gold from those hills in the last 125 years?

Don't give me this crap about how honorable and law abiding our ancestors were because they weren't.

[saracat]

174. Our nation is what it is. Good and bad.

Do you suggest we return all our land and go back to Europe or wherever we have come from? No country has a perfect history! That is even sillier than the argument about the 12 million illegals.
I was just looking at photos of the march and I find some of the signs offensive. Many signs said Arizona was Mexico and they were the same. Another sign said Mexicans were more entitled to be here than Americans. Enough. I support my country first. I am not attempting to go back in time and rewrite history or force my point of view on another nation. That is what I don't like about the Bush Dictatorship!

I can't do anything about the wrongs of yesteryear but dammit, I can speak up to defend the rights of Americans and support the sovereinity of our nation! We must take care of the American citizens who are suffering first. We can't even rebuild New Orleans and some want us to priortitze illegals?

You don't sound so much democratic as socialist , not that there is anything wrong with that but we must agree to disagree. I believe in nationalism. I am an American first because only if we have our own house in order can we afford to do anything of benefit to anyone else!

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. I believe we are living in a glass house that never belonged to US in the

first place. Therefore, it is hypocritical for us to now decide who gets to come here and who can't.

Speaking of signs, here is one I saw at our protest:

[saracat]

187. So being an American means nothing to you? Being Mexican or American are

the same to you? Being an American citizen is nothing special? I have no words left to describe what I think of such a sentiment. I guess I now understand why you have such little empathy for the American worker.

[janx]

165. If you work with families like this and do not know whether or

not they are citizens, then I'd say you're not paying much attention.

Dammit, if you care, you ASK, and you ask how you can help them become legal.

(Never, ever let anyone tell you that a moderate like me doesn't care or is some kind of a wimp. NEVER.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. I don't think it is any of my business what their legal status is

I wouldn't even dream of asking. That's not part of my job to know and it doesn't change how I treat their kids.

[janx]

175. Are you kidding me?!

Their kids' futures depend on this very much!

[proud2BlibKansan]

176. I am a teacher in a public school

We educate every kid who walks in the door, regardless of their citizenship. It isn't (yet) my job to ask where they were born.

[loyalsister]

152. Thanks for that

I didn't see that sign, but it is the summation of this debate.
This is all about justice.
Human rights, and economic justice.
It's also about time we get over our xenophobia.

I saw some guy talking about the "danger" of having "two" cultures in the U.S.
I was stunned.
The regional differences in this country are defined sharply enough to be different cultures in the sense that many of us don't feel comfortable in regions other than the one we grew up\live in.
i.e. Northeasterners traveling to the south, midwesterners traveling east, etc.
It can feel like a different world.
Clearly, ethnic and racial minorities have always had their own cultures. Various professions have their own cultures.
Some of the people talking about this issue are trying to exploit any latent racism and stir up any feelings of dislike of the "other" in order to get people on their side.
It's not unlike Nixon's Southern Strategy.

[Redbear]

67. I'm With You.

Human rights should be the most important factor.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. Good!

[huskerlaw]

68. Very well said.

I too am struggling with how I feel about this issue. Your analysis makes a lot of sense.

To me, the bottom line is that these immigrants are human beings. They are trying to make a better life for their families. Who among us wouldn't break the law if it meant honestly a better life for our kids? If the options were a)living in a dirty mud hut, starving, with no clean water and diseases everywhere or b) living in a small but clean apartment with money, food, education and health care, or at least the promise of all of that...I think the vast majority of us would decide to break the law.

So how can we blame them for doing what we ourselves would do?

However, I realize that basic truth is complicated by the effect it has on American citizens. They also deserve a job, a home, education and health care.

Something needs to be done, but shipping 12 million people back to Mexico isn't it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. Thank you

[The Backlash Cometh]

72. We had a reasonable plan in place over five years ago.

Everything went out of control, got chaotic, when Bush came in. What you're seeing is what happens when no one is in charge. He's going to sit back and let American fight American over the illegal alien issue and he couldn't care less.

[PublicWrath]

97. Of course Bush cares...............

About the struggle of America's oil barons to gain access to Pemex, the nationally-owned Mexican Oil Company, which is not currently open to foreign investment. That is, not yet.

[leftstreet]

76. Who will protect undocumented workers from the millions more

waiting to come here and compete for THEIR jobs?

Will La Raza, the Catholic church, and latino radio mobilize the amnestied workers back out into the streets for immigration reform that protects THEIR jobs?

Will Bill Gates go BACK to DC and ask for a cap on H1B visas so that his newly hired cheap tech workers won't have to compete for THEIR jobs?

I thought not.

The Corporation is winning.

[Bridget Burke]

92. Who proposed Amnesty?

The Democratic plan would have allowed a road to citizenship for those who had been here a while, had a good record & paid a fine plus back taxes.

[leftstreet]

101. Semantics. Still, who will protect them once they're documented?

From new waves of undocumented workers competing for THEIR jobs.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

110. We all need a living wage. That's the bottom line.

This isn't about approving of ANY WORKER being exploited.

This cycle will never stop until WAGES are protected. It's not about hungry brown people. It's about manipulating Labor, splintering it, setting it against itself.

Unless you actually believe Malthus.

[Bridget Burke]

193. Saying complete amnesty was proposed when is has not....

Is a matter of "Semantics"--not a "Lie"?

Yes, they do all look alike. What will keep Native Born Mexican Americans from being made to show "their papers" at any opportunity?

[leftstreet]

203. Who said amnesty was proposed?

Why does that word bother people?

There are immigration reform advocates calling for it, but you generally only hear it on spanish-speaking radio.

Or in news transcripts.

NATIVO LOPEZ, PRES. MEX-AM POL. ASSOC.: It's a racist legislation and it criminalize the people, and employers, workers, pastors of churches, the most, nastiness, racist legislation ever to see Congress and the history of our country.

DOBBS: And will you accept anything less than amnesty?

LOPEZ: Absolutely not. We're looking for full immediate, unconditional legalization for all persons currently in the United States. They've already paid their way, Dobbs. They paid their way more than enough, than anybody can expect of them, we don't need earned legalization, we need legalization right now of all our folks here.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/10/ldt.01.html

[PsN2Wind]

77. Seems you have greater empathy

for those HUMAN BEINGS (illegal immigrants) than your friends (small letter human beings) that are losing their livelihoods to people that have came to this country illegally. Must make you a bit unpopular when you get together with your "friends" and tell them that it's just tough shit that they may have to go bankrupt.
I wonder if you would be as sympathetic to the cause of illegals were your livelihood threatened and you were facing bankruptcy?

[EFerrari]

79. Bullshit. That's a false dilemna. We are ALL being injured

by the corporate elites -- the ones who fake our elections and send our kids to die for nothing and abuse undocumented workers and cut our benefits.

This argument is ridiculous on its face.

[Beelzebud]

85. Thank you. Blame the Monsantos of the world for this, not the people.

[PsN2Wind]

93. It doesn't appear to be a dilemma for the poster

although it might be to you. The poster claims to be in favor of illegal immigration to this country EVEN IF it adversely impacts "friends". So the poster stated where their sympathy lies, therefore no dilemma.

[proud2BlibKansan]

88. Thought I explained that

I advocate all of us acquiring the skills to do something else for a living. My friends in the construction business have college degrees. One of them is a certified teacher. Another is a certified truck driver. They would just rather work outdoors building houses. They won't starve. And they know how I feel.

[PsN2Wind]

96. Maybe not starve

but few people consider having to declare bankruptcy as a positive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. It's not a positive

but he also realizes he could have quit his business when his wife begged him to - 10 years ago. It's been foundering for some time but the cheap labor competition has pretty much done him in in the last couple years.

[PsN2Wind]

115. You must have very understanding friends

If I had built a construction company and was losing to bidders using illegal labor to undercut me and had a "friend" saying how wonderful it was that these HUMAN BEINGS were doing so well, that person would be just someone I used to know.

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. Labor isn't the only reason his business is failing

and he is smart enough to know that.

[Berserker]

118. That is the most unbelievable line of bull I have ever read

You set there and have the guts to say to construction workers they should just step aside and let the illegals take our jobs. Are you out of your mind?
I have been in construction all of my life I am not trained as a truck driver or teacher nor do I have a degree. I do not want a degree I want to work in the trade I dedicated my life to and thats construction. Construction is a highly skilled occupation believe it or not. I am so tired of reading posts like yours I could puke. Why don't you give up your occupation and your home and move on thats what you are telling me to do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. If I had to give up my occupation, I could

I do know how to do other things. I wouldn't be as happy and I doubt I would make as much money, but I wouldn't starve.

I never said construction wasn't highly skilled. Believe me, I know it is.

My cousin was an engineer for GM. She lost her 20 year job just last week. She realizes her days as an automotive engineer are most likely over. Things happen. You either wallow in pity or you move on. She is moving on. Construction workers aren't the only ones suffering in the changing economy.

[Berserker]

143. Wallow in pity?

Is that what all the people will do that lose good jobs like construction to Illegals. The way you put it is we should just move on and let them have our jobs and our homes. Many of us are not college age with degrees that work summers doing construction we do this for a living and it's being taken away. Perhaps you and your significant other should give your jobs away to Illegals to prove your point and lead the way.

[proud2BlibKansan]

156. I guess you missed my brazillion other posts where I called for

raising the minimum wage and penalizing employers who hire illegal immigrants and/or don't pay minimum wage.

The enemy here is NOT the workers.

[DemReadingDU]

87. Excellent post

If our government truly didn't want them in the U.S., they would have closed the borders.

Instead of sending our military to fight in Iraq, our military could have been put on the borders to prevent people from coming over illegally.

But this administration wants these people to come to U.S. in order to work for low wages, so that the CEO's can reap larger profits. It's all about money for big business.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. Thank you

[DemReadingDU]

100. I think what will happen

With so many people from Mexico in the U.S., and they are very family oriented as well as hard workers, is that they will bind together to force companies for higher wages, probably even forming their own unions. The people from Mexico will become what the people from Europe did for America 100 years ago.

Just look at the numbers at all those protests.

(edit for spelling)

[Ksec]

95. I think everyone being hurt are human

The people in this country are taking their economic frustrations out on the illegals when in reality its the corporate world along with the government that had this all planned out. Bush took three trips down to Mexico early in his presidency. He , no doubt, told Fox to ship all his people into the US , because he liked the idea of cheaper labor competing against living wages.

My Grandfather, my Father and I fought for these wage increases, many died during the early years of unions and the struggle to be treated like human beings. Now we have millions coming from a foreign country undercutting us. How the Hell am I supposed to welcome them? Everything we fought for and just to give it up and give them my blessings. "oh thanks guys, we appreciate you taking our jobs and bringing the wages down"

Not gonna happen.

[Ian David]

99. Being an illegal immigrant is an alternative lifestyle choice...

I don't really believe that, but I kind of look forward to saying it to the first illegal immigrant who tells me they're against gay marriage.

[EFerrari]

105. LOL!

:rofl:

[Ksec]

107. Exactly the kind of attitude

that have turned this country into the mood it is.

Its hilarious when someone speaks about THEiR family and its struggles. To you the only ones who matter are you. Well I choose to do the same and look out for ME.

[Ian David]

117. Let's remember Rev. Martin Niemoeller

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

--Rev. Martin Niemoeller

More:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/niemoeller.html

In 2004 they came for the gays.
Now, in 2006, they're coming for the immigrants.

I am not an illegal immigrant.
I am not an immigrant.

But I will speak out for all immigrants-- legal and illegal-- because their fight is my fight.

Their fight is everyone's fight.

We must speak out when they come for the immigrants.

We must speak out when they come for ANYONE.

We MUST speak out for ALL who are oppressed or scapegoated or marginalized, whether or not they spoke out when they came for YOU.

But by gawd, when you do, do not be shy about asking, "And did you speak out when they came for me?"

I am here and I will speak out for you, whether or not you spoke out for me. And don't you forget it!

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. You Go!!

Thanks for the reminder.

[Ksec]

132. So now you like religion?

Wasnt you bitching about these religious folks a few days ago and if not , I apologise for the assumption. Anyway I dont think this is about anyones skin color or discrimination of any kind. Its about people sneaking across the border and then demanding citizenship, while those who played by the rules , get royally screwed.
As much as you guys like to use the race card, this aint about race.

[Inland]

204. Yeah. Not everything is rounding people up for a death camp.

It's about immigration rights and the right to bid for jobs in America, not concentration camps. That's why the big, big black letters don't apply. They don't apply to illegal immigrants who are forced to return home any more than they applied to people who stay in their own countries, or to Americans who lose their jobs thanks to immigration policies. Deportation isn't a death sentence any more than losing a job to an illegal immigrant is.

And that's why the rhetoric of the open borders left simply alienates America. By the rhetoric, An impoverished foreigner must be given an American job or it's a holocaust, which makes the Americans look less than human in their own country.

[walldude]

102. So I assume by some of these "it's illegal" posts that

all you folks who are so in favor of the "rule of law" will happily send a woman in South Dakota who was raped and had an abortion to prison? Or the guy who sat down to smoke a joint after work? He should get a few years too. :eyes:

[Ksec]

104. To me, its not that its illegal

Illegal means they keep their mouths shut for fear of deportation.

When they choose to come illegally, that means they dont care about me or my family. I see so many saying the immigrants are just human beings looking for work. Guess what? Im a human being also. My family are human beings that will need good jobs to live on. When we have millions coming here it floods the labor market , and flooding any market will automatically bring the wages down.

I understand the real enemy in this are the corporations and the government they own but the immigrants are also part of that problem. THEY are choosing to sneak across that border so they carry part of the blame IMO.

I hope you dont do another smartass racist reply like I recieved from some on this board when I speak my piece. Its got nothing to do with the race of the people. I would be just as pissed if it were some europeon immigrants flooding into the country.

[walldude]

153. Obviously you and I have never debated, I don't do attacks

or racism. And I understand your position. Like many people here this issue is a fence sitter for me. My post was only meant to bring up the idea that the "rule of law" thing isn't always a good answer. I feel for illegals who are just trying for a better life, and I feel for Americans out of work, kids in over filled classrooms, hospitals streching their resources to the breaking point. Your point about illegals not caring about your family could work two ways though. They care as much about your family as you do theirs. Personally I think outsourcing is more damaging to the job market than illegal immigrants. I think at this point it's stupid and unrealistic to try to deport 12 million people. What we need is some kind of penalty for those that are here. Not a fine, not jail time but something intelligent. You want to become a legal citizen? Fine. Serve 2 years in the military. Not military material? Fine. 4 years of community service. Last I saw the Gulf coast still needs a lot of work done, not to mention the numerous other problems here at home. You want to become a citizen, fine, earn it. Then we can work on securing the borders to stem the flow of illegals. You are never going to stop illegal immigration but it can certainly be made managable.

[EFerrari]

106. "Rule of law" has been Thug code for segregation for --

what now -- about 50 years?

:eyes:

[saracat]

128. Then why is everyone so upset that Bush doesn't seem to

recognize the "rule of law'? We should be overjoyed. The left has no more right to abuse the rule of law than the right. This is a specious argument at best.

[EFerrari]

177. Not exactly. After the Civil Rights Act was passed, Thug

candidates wooed the South by saying that they would uphold "the rule of law". The catch phrase was unmistakably code for segregation.

The same argument is being resurrected today.

I don't know anyone who is for breaking the law -- in the same way that abolitionists were against breaking the law and yet, the ones that could became part of the underground railroad.

It is very possible to hold the rule of law in high esteem and yet recognize that human rights supercede those rules at times.

[Ron Mexico]

108. "Embrace the diversity in our society that makes us the great nation..."

I'm one of those construction workers who can't find work in his profession (Arlington, VA area) and has been reduced to doing temp work. And although I'm sure you're a decent guy and I don't doubt the benevolence of your intentions,

a.) using a line like "embrace...diversity..." is low and not even appropriate. I have yet to meet anyone other than the hardcore Archie Bunker type who has a problem with LEGAL immigration. People here legally don't generally work under the table for lower-than-minimum wages that lock people like me out of our trade. Just because I don't approve of people who are here illegally taking my job doesn't mean I don't "embrace diversity." Focusing on legal status is the key here, and I resent the living hell out of any implication that my not supporting illegals means I don't "embrace diversity." Let's put it this way: I embrace legal immigration of people from all countries. If they can't be bothered to go through the process, no matter how cumbersome or inconvenient, I have no sympathy for them.

b.) bank robbers are also HUMAN BEINGS. Homeless people are also HUMAN BEINGS. Although not a perfect analogy (nor is it intended to be), I do not feel obligated to ignore the infractions of the former or put up with the latter breaking into my house and protesting when I try to evict him. If there is so much opportunity over here, why is expecting people to register with the INS too much to ask? Because it's complicated and slow? So are our tax systems and motor vehicle bureaus. Feeding and taking in every poor person who wants a better life is not our responsibility, either.

c.) if you can have a few xenophobic pricks change your mind, meeting a few people who are in my situation or worse could always change it back. If I ever get in an accident, swing by the hospital and we can talk for a few minutes. That's all the time we'll have, because I can only afford health insurance for my wife.

d.) although I have nothing against you personally, your proposal really irks the out of me. What it amounts to is "join the fight to get better wages for the people who took your job." I mean you no offense, but you'll have to take up that fight without me, whether you think "embracing diversity" is possible with legal immigrants only or not.

[EFerrari]

113. Hey, Ron. Looks like the conversation is on.

I guess the first thing I'd like to say is, I lived in the Los Angeles area for about three years.

What I saw there was organized labor making common cause with undocumented workers. It stumped management. I mean, they didn't know how to react.

It stumped me, too, at first, until I understood that by taking that wedge away, employers had to face a big old united front. It was their worst nightmare.

[Ron Mexico]

195. We've been waiting for a while, and there's no better time.

I live in Arlington, Crystal City area, where construction jobs are a thing of the past for people who are here legally and not related to the owner of a company. I have never understood why outsourcing labor to foreigners for low wages and taking jobs away from hardworking Americans is okay unless we have the workers here (illegally, on top of that) using our social services, which I pay taxes for on my now-lower wages. Not only am I now out of a large part of my check, not only have I lost my health and dental insurance (neither of which I can afford on my takehome now), but I even get to chip in to the guys who took my job despite their very presence in the country being in violation of laws that neither party has made any effort to change or simplify.

So when you see flag-waivers in my area over the next few days, don't expect to see me among them.

[saracat]

129. Fabulous Post. Tell it like it is!

[Berserker]

166. Thank You Ron Mexico

VERY well said.

[Zookeeper]

191. Well, Ron...

Perhaps you've missed the arguments here that amount to the old "noble savage" idea. The citizens of another country who are here illegally are simple, "brown people" who just want to work (unlike, apparently, the rest of the world) and couldn't possibly be expected to even consider the possibility that their willingness to work for low wages could cause problems for American citizens (of all races). No, the Mexican government has assured them that Americans are concerned because we're "racist."

The illegal immigrants I know are not stupid. They can grasp wage issues, but they choose to believe that they are doing jobs Americans won't do because Americans are "lazy."

[Ron Mexico]

197. It wouldn't matter if they really believed that or not.

The fact is that if they can make more money here than there, they'll take the job, no matter who loses it. Although like you I also know they're not stupid, I truly don't believe they're here to bail us out by taking those pesky unpleasant jobs that we lazy Americans won't take. They're here to upgrade their lives, our laws or people be damned. I don't have sympathy for them at all, and neither does anyone I know who lost their job to illegals. The only people I do know who have sympathy for them are those whose jobs aren't in danger, but how long will it be before a wave of illegals is as computer-savvy as a typical high school grad pulling down a decent wage?

The thing I don't get is how outsourcing jobs to lower-wage foreign workers is a bad thing unless those workers are here (illegally), using ogovernment services at our expense. I have never seen any estimate that indicates that whatever taxes they pay cover their use of services, so it affects all of us, particularly those in about a dozen states where there are so many illegals that congressional representation is affected. But if people complain about it, they're told to "embrace diversity" - as if they're not open-minded, not compassionate, or even racist. I'll keep my "embracing" to those here legally, thanks.

I lost my health insurance and had to yank my wife out of college (we kept her insurance, we just had to cut out things such as dinner out once a week). We make too much to qualify for anything, but not enough for health insurance for me. One broken bone or one night's stay in the hospital and I'm financially fucked for life, but as long as I'm "embracing diversity" (which isn't limited to people here legally, apparently), that's supposed to be okay. Yeah, right. I have to take a major drop in pay and see my taxes go to support the very people who took my job? Uh, no.

Eventually, people here who applaud illegal immigration and see it as a diversity issue might find their own jobs threatened. I'm not much of a Schadenfreude type, but since neither party wants to stop the flow of illegals, I can't wait until some of the "let them stay, you racist" types find themselves hurt by their own "compassion."

[Triana]

109. NOT minimum wage

a LIVING wage (or more )- for all workers

[EFerrari]

114. Yes! An important distinction.

:toast:

[katinmn]

126. Immigration: Bush's and Congresses' limp d*ck approach to governing

is the problem.

This is another prime example of an issue that is blowing up because of the corruption in DC.

Bush talks out of both sides of his mouth. When speaking to audiences concerned about border security he says "we have to protect our borders."

To businessses he says: "We must maintain an ample supply of cheap labor for industry."

Well, you're seeing now you can't have it both ways, fuckwad!

He is ignoring the real issue that is of concern to Americans and illegal immigrants alike: liveable wages. He's playing unions against immigrants and all the rest of us. And Congress has refused to address the calls for minimum wage and health care. But they never neglect to give themselves an annual pay raise. This year they raised their salaries by $3K. Health care is not, and never will be a problem for them. Once they've served, they are covered for life.

So now we have half a million people showing up to protest in city after city about an immigration mess that our so-called "public servants" created through lack of attention and political maneuvering, and they go on another two week vacation, continuing to avoid the crisis.

The best thing for this country will be impeaching Bush and throwing out all the incumbents and starting over. The current contingent is just TOO CORRUPT and beholden to special interests.

[sweetheart]

130. it is not egaletarian, not free

I don't hear freedom ringing in that.

Jobs are not a zero sum game, berefit of the generosity of wealth.

When we turn a blind eye to people's official papers, we
grant ourselves the same priviledge, and it is by far more
civil to not be shaken down by the police, E V E R. And the
asking demand for papers is a sure sign of a shake down.

It reminds us all we live in a lockdown, and god forbid if you
were an "illegal". Then you would stay and work as someone's
housekeeper for sex since your supplly side system has driven
them off the paid-wage area... side effects unintended, you
haven't made anything illegal mate, no matter what papers
you do with employers... people're creative, and there are
a lots of ways to indenture and enslave, all of them empowered
by laws that take away the bottom rung for "our own poor".

Dammit, these people are not "aliens", they are our own children.

And in another war on the poor, does anyone wonder where jesus would
stand.

[pitohui]

138. you're asking us to join YOUR fight?

that's a hella nerve, YOUR fight is the fight to drive wages down to the v. bottom, it is the same fight you have been fighting for your GOP masters since you took it up

{by you i hope it is clear i don't mean any individual poster who has been honestly hoodwinked by the tireless pro-illegal propaganda, i mean the generic "you" that has been fighting to import millions of illegal aliens into this country for over two decades in order to keep blue collar americans out of work forever)

there is a reason that GOP residents like reagan/bush want to make millions of people willing to work below wage into "citizens," it is because of reagan and bush opening the country to people willing to work as slaves that we have not been able to get any rise in minimum wage in all these years

it is complete hypocrisy for the pro-cheap labor forces to pretend that their actions do anything but create a huge and growing class of the permanently impoverished

join YOUR fight

what fight?

you don't give a damn abt your own friends, you don't give a damn abt the people you can see right in front of you who can't earn a decent living

so don't pretend you give a damn because you watched a program on the teevee

go back to school, refresh your memory of the simple law of supply and demand, when there are too many laborers, we can't demand fuck-all

hypocrisy is king today

the americans who are told they are lazy and won't work -- often black americans -- know it's abt race and abt class and making sure that a black man or a blue collar man can never get back on top

look into your conscience and ask yourself if you really, rilly, rilly truly believe that reagan and bush were soooooo concerned abt poor hispanics that they have any good or kind motivation for legalizing all these competitors to take away other men's jobs, esp. black men's jobs

sorry i stand first for the people who obey the law and want nothing more than to earn a living wage in the land of their birth

people who think the law don't and shouldn't apply to them should not be put in front of the line

[saracat]

142. Agreed. The humanitarian sympathies of the liberals are being used

against them. Doesn't anyone find it odd that the media are all over this but didn't give a damn about the anti war marches. Hell, they even schilled for this and gave directions to the march and nonstop coverage! Do you think it is because they "care' about the fate of the illegals? Grow up1 This is only to benefit business.

[high density]

148. yep

If the illegals weren't a cheap source of labor, these protests would not be plastered all over our tv screens. The corporate media is so obvious now. This is an issue where I have no clue to solve the problem, but both extremes seem wrong to me on this one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. You are way off base here

Go back and really read my OP again.

[Carni]

199. And don't kid yourself

A huge segment of the service industry is (was) comprised of African American workers (I mean hospitality service) this *guest worker* bullshit is just a real cheap way to get new blood in, that won't demand the legal rights that they should be entitled to as Americans.

Look at what's going on in New Orleans...generations of people kicked out of their homes and any of the rebuilding that IS being done, going to scab labor.

I frankly find it pretty f'ing ironic that the people against the guest worker crap are being called "racist" when I think it's pretty damned racist (and elitist)to sit on a pedestal and dictate that *certain people* with *certain jobs* should just face so called reality and move on!

This is all a sham about cheap labor and people are falling for it hook line and sinker.

[Inland]

147. "They are human beings" is just a cop out.

As are people who have obeyed the law, paid taxes, gotten caught. As are criminals. As are citizens. As are all the billions of poor in the world.

And.....what? A xenophobic ass says deport them, so you're against xenophobia, so you say let them stay. But what about all the other human beings, billions actually, who need a hand up? They are human, and......what? Is it inhuman to have an immigration law? If it isn't, then somebody's going to have to go, or stay out: someone's going to lose their ability to work in America.

All you do is trade the good of human beings that might be marching for the good of human beings you won't ever meet, because they haven't broken the law and entered illegally. And you trade an unknown American's job for that as well. Everyone involved is human, but the side you've taken prevents any embarrassing confrontations, and it's easier to let the burden fall on the humans you can't identify. That's a cop out.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

149. I find this post full of irony...

There are MORE options than just "deport them all" and "allow things to continue as they are". Only those who are too lazy to actually think the issue through believe that these are the only options. But then, it sure is easier to blame all the problems on the illegal immigrants. The government is already targeting them. One just needs to jump on board. Actually standing up and DEMANDING change from the employers? Not so easy. The government is in the pocket of big business and a petition every so often isn't likely to initiate change. This story has been told over and over and over and over...why break tradition, right?

[Inland]

151. There are lots of options.

But it's impossible to evaluate them on the grounds that "they are human beings". That's because somebody is going to get left out. You're going to have to find some other basis for deciding. THat's all I'm saying, here anyway.

[proud2BlibKansan]

161. Well obviously I don't see it that way

Too bad you can't see that improving working conditions and raising the minimum wage for ALL workers truly benefits ALL workers.

And I will ALWAYS take the human side on any issue. That makes me a liberal Democrat.

[Berserker]

170. News Flash

No one can raise a family and live on a minimun wage in America. They are not going to raise it to the point where Americans can make a living. Study economics. You seem to think that giving our jobs to Illegals and training for new positions is the answer. I don't. I also take the side of working men and women. I will fight to keep my job just as I fight to take my country back from this insane administration.

[proud2BlibKansan]

172. Which part of 'RAISING the minimum wage'

did you not understand?

[Inland]

192. There's humans and humanity on both sides. You chose the squeaky wheel.

But one has identified humans, and the other has humans you won't bump into and can't identify.

The people who are going to lose their jobs in the future can't march. They don't know who they are, yet.

The people who get stiffed because they followed the immigration law can't march. They aren't in this country.

You just picked the squeaky wheel and the easy way to avoid confrontation. That's fine, but it's not humanity.

[QC]

150. You're very generous with other people's jobs. n/t

[RagingInMiami]

184. And that is why you are proud to be liberal

You have nothing to be ashamed of.

[Roxy66]

186. Help me here....I keep hearing that they feel discriminated against..

Everywhere you go you see literature in English and in Spanish....calling any entity on the phone, there is always an English or Spanish option....and some jobs require that you speak Spanish to even apply, and these are not only regular jobs, but Government jobs as well. I dont ever recall being asked if I speak Japanese, Chinese, German, Polish....or any other language to get a job or info over the phone......Just sayin'.

Oh, and by the way we are also supplying our schools with all the services to integrate Mexican's educations...when the Schools cant even provide pencils for the kids....we buy all the supplies

P.S...
Several of my best friends are Hispanic...so dont you dare accuse me of some sort of racist-----and they feel the same way

[RagingInMiami]

189. You forgot to mention House Bill 4437

[LWolf]

194. My 2 cents:

If we really wanted to address "illegal immigration," we'd address labor issues on a global basis. As long as there are places where people can't make a living, there will be people crossing borders.

We need a global labor movement to bring fair wages and just working conditions to all people.

Building walls won't do anything except increase conflict, imo.