US soldiers blame Iraqi troops incapability as a "a cultural thing"

[sabra]

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1677365.php

<snip>

Soldiers also expressed concern that Iraqi troops were still incapable of controlling the violence. Some said Iraqi soldiers tend to cluster around checkpoints rather than walking regular beats through neighborhoods.

“I think it’s a cultural thing, whereas we’re used to working 8-10 hours a day ... they’re used to working 4-5 hours per day,” said 1st Lt. John Ford of Houston, Texas.

The reintroduction of greater numbers of U.S. forces had also tested some relationships with Iraqi soldiers.

“To be perfectly honest, they were a little (angry) that we came back into their sector,” said Ford. “It’s getting to a point where they don’t want or need us. It’s unfortunate because we have a lot of assets to bring to the table.”

[atreides1]

1. ".....we have a lot of assets to bring to the table."

Like killing unarmed civilians and then blaming an IED that's at least a 100 yards away, are those the assets the lieutenant is talking about?

[peacebaby3]

3. Was this Lt. involved in that incident? n/t

[peacebaby3]

2. Your title is incorrect. It should read US Soldier...no "s". I only see a

quote from one guy.

[vickitulsa]

6. No, three soldiers in the 1st of the 71st Cav are quoted.

Capt. Matt Brown of Eau Claire, Wis.

1st Lt. John Ford of Houston, Texas.

1st Lt. Paul Tanghe of Minneapolis, Minnesota


A captain and two 1st lieutenants ... from different parts of the U.S. And it's interesting that they all seem to agree about the situation in Iraq, too.

[peacebaby3]

8. The only soldier that says it is because of "cultural differences" is

Ford of Houston, TX.

[vickitulsa]

14. Okay, Peace, peacebaby, you may be technically correct, but

I think that's getting a little bit nitpicky... ;)

No worries, mate!

[peacebaby3]

15. Since my husband is a US Soldier and the OP was stating that Soldiers were

saying that it was a "cultural thing," it wasn't nit-picky to me. I don't like generalizations so I pointed it out.

I have no worries with you.

Peace. :D

[sabra]

12. I decided to pull a BushCo, "some say"

:-)

[peacebaby3]

16. No problem, sabra. You and I are usually on the same page. I'm sure I

notice things like that more often because my husband is a soldier.


:)

[sabra]

18. makes sense.

peace.

[vickitulsa]

4. I am concerned too, as should we all be!

And to think that this very frank article is published in the Army Times, no less! If a military publication is being this honest, letting the soldiers in place on the ground in Baghdad speak of the serious doubts they have about Iraqis maintaining security after American troops leave, what does that say about about the inevitability of civil war, I wonder?

More from the article, quite startling (to me at least):


<< Other soldiers expressed doubts that the bolstered U.S. presence could contain the recent surge of violence.

“I think we’re reaching the point of diminishing returns on U.S. patrols in our area,” said 1st Lt. Paul Tanghe of Minneapolis, Minnesota. “It’s not going to stop until the people in that house, that house, and that one want it to stop ... You definitely get the sense that there are some people who don’t want it to stop.”

A dull thud was heard in the distance as Tanghe spoke during the patrol Friday through the neighborhood of Shula, where support for Shiite militiamen loyal to hardline cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is strong.

Minutes later Tanghe’s troops heard that a nearby Shiite mosque had been attacked by suicide bombers. Iraqi officials said 85 people had been killed. >>


For some reason, the military seems to be allowing some of these troops on the ground to level with us all about the prospects for the near future in Iraq. I can only wonder if perhaps the "brass" aren't trying to let the truth out a little bit at a time in order to prepare Americans for what is to come after U.S. occupation ends -- if it ever does.

[peacebaby3]

7. I've always been surprised by the coverage in the Army Times.

They seem to be much more honest than many in the MSM. They seem to have no problem posting articles with quotes of discontent by soldiers and LTTE that criticize this administration and the "war" in Iraq.

[vickitulsa]

19. I didn't know your husband was/is a U.S. soldier, peacebaby.

That changes everything, to me ... since I'm a very strong supporter of our troops, as well as our veterans. Most of my best friends are Vietnam vets; but I love and support the active duty folks as well. If it's not too much of a generality for ya, I'd say I think people in America "generally" fail to fully appreciate just how important and courageous are the men and women who risk their lives to protect, serve, and defend our citizens!

Ironically, after so many Vietnam vets suffered a double whammy of trauma from combat duty incountry and scorn, even hate, from civilians when they returned home, Americans (again generally) seem to have learned they can "love the soldiers but hate war" -- or be against a particular war, if that's the case for some.

You may not be old enough to remember the times of the Vietnam War, but there was a very popular protest song called "Universal Soldier" on the radio then by Buffy St. Marie -- a very talented Native American/folk artist I like and admire. I understood her point in that song, too, but I felt and still feel that it did a great disservice to our troops because it placed a great deal of the blame for that war directly upon the soldiers who were ordered to fight it. In her view, according to the lyrics of this song, she expected the individual soldiers to "take a stand" and make a decision to refuse to serve in that war.

I guess she believed that if troops would refuse en masse to fight what they felt was morally a "wrong" war, we would not have war any more. I believe her lyrics stuck in many civilians' minds and made the burden for Vietnam vets even greater than it already was. Her words seemed to encourage citizens to blame the soldiers.

Also, since I hang out a great deal with Nam vets, I often meet active duty soldiers as well, including a number of Iraq war vets; and I've heard quite a few of them voice views in keeping with Lt. Ford of Houston regarding the cultural differences in Iraq. None of them seemed to be disrespecting Iraqis, but they did recognize that cultural differences made preparing the Iraqis to serve their own people's needs difficult.

Another point I'd like to make on this topic, however. In 2001 my boyfriend was a 60-year-old Brit who had some strong views of Americans that were both very negative and quite unfair (until he came here for the first time and saw for himself what we are like). His avocation was doing rescue work around the globe for the British Civil Defense, and he had been in as many as 30 countries during earthquakes, floods, war, famine, and other disasters. He worked to bring safe drinking water to an orphanage in Rwanda, for instance, as well as travelling to Iraq, Turkey, and Iran to perform rescues after earthquakes in those nations. I asked him once of all the peoples he'd spent time with in the three decades he'd done this work, which ones did he LIKE BEST. And he replied after only a moment's thought: Iraqis!

Can't say I was shocked -- I had no expectations one way or the other about what his answer "should" be. But I've since thought a lot about his reply as I see the difficulties the Iraqis seem to be having in taking over their own defense and security.

I also took the time to get acquainted with some Iraqi refugees when a mosque went up a block from my home in Tulsa, and I found them to be as likeable, decent, intelligent, and capable as my boyfriend Rod did.

Thus I have to conclude that the difficulties in Iraq with training people there to handle their own security tasks are due NOT to any deficiencies of either our troops or the Iraqis, but to the ineptitude of the "leaders," both civilian and military, in both countries.

As what you posted in this thread seemed to indicate that your husband had served in Iraq, I wonder if you would agree with that conclusion? I also would like to ask you why you put "war" in quotes in your post? Do you or your husband see the situation there as something other than war?

Thanks for your input, peacebaby -- we can't get enough of it from those who live closer to the experience than we do.

[peacebaby3]

20. No problem. Thanks for your post. Being the wife of a soldier and a

Liberal against the "war" can be a really difficult place sometimes. I have literally been spit on by the wife of another soldier. I had someone try to track me down off the internet and threaten to turn my husband into command while he was serving in Iraq because of MY comments about the the CIC. They said he should be tried for treason and executed. I had some man writing my husband telling him that he was sleeping with me while he was over there. It turned out to be some loser who lives in our community and didn't think I should be at an anti-war protest so he pretended to get my husband's address to send him a care package and then sent him a letter about my supposed infidelity. Too bad I was visiting with my husband's parents when he claimed I was off cheating so my husband knew it was a lie. My husband served in Iraq from March '03 - April '04. His unit is re-deploying in the next 3 months, but he is suppose to retire with 20 yrs in Sept. so as of right now, he is not on the list to go, but I will not breathe easy until the day he actually retires.

On the other hand, I've heard some liberals/progressive say some really nasty things about the soldiers as well. It wasn't long ago on this board where someone called them "contract killers" and everyone always wants to know why he didn't refuse to go or refuse orders, etc. and it is virtually impossible to explain to people.

I sometimes feel like I am just on my own. Most people on this board are very nice about the soldiers and I am sure I can be over sensitive at times.

I use "war" because I really consider it an invasion and occupation as does my husband. Unfortunately, the administration and the DOD consider it a war so those who serve cannot refuse their orders.

I was actually born toward the end of the Viet Nam war and I'm not familiar with that song, but I understand the point. I wish that the soldiers would refuse en mass as well, but I'm also realistic to know that is probably never going to happen so those that do refuse will pay very heavily and a few months after they have made a headline nobody will be interested in them anymore, they will just be locked up and nobody will care. There was a group of truck drivers who refused to drive trucks on a mission because the trucks had no armor so they were arrested and were going to be court- martialed. I wonder what happened to them? I haven't seen one word since and that was at least a year ago. Unfortunately, that is also happening already with the soldiers that die everyday. In the beginning, you would hear their names and about their lives on the national news,etc. Now, you might hear a snip on the local news station or paper where the soldier is from. It's very sad.

My husband worries that regardless of what kind of training we provide the Iraqis that it may not matter. He thinks there will (and already is) a civil war. Yes, some of it is cultural and he believes that we've made a mess we can't really fix, that it will be left up to the people of Iraq. For the most part, he really liked the Iraqi people. He said it was a valuable lesson for him because they could be so happy with very little. He really loved the children and we actually tried to talk to the Red Cross about adopting one of the children from an orphanage (the little boy had lived in the orphanage his entire life), but we couldn't because we aren't Muslim and they are very strict about only Muslims can raise Iraqi children. He said that it was also tough because some Iraqis would be your friend in the daylight and then one night you would see the person you thought was your friend shooting at you. He never really blamed the Iraqis though. He said if someone had come here to the US and told us how to run this country that he would imagine most of us would do the same, but it was hard because he didn't want to die either.

I definitely agree with your conclusion.

[vickitulsa]

21. Thanks so much for all the info and your willingness to tell us

what it's like for you and your husband.

I really do understand how you might feel sort of "on your own," being a liberal and anti-war person but also married to a soldier. I live in a version of the same situation since I'm so dedicated to my veteran and active-duty "brothers" as well as being liberal and anti-war. It's interesting how many Nam vets are conflicted in their feelings about the occupation of Iraq, and the fact that the U.S. invaded there in the first place. I mean, in a way you'd sort of expect veterans to back any actions their active-duty counterparts were involved in -- and often their sons or daughters since, as I'm sure you know, military service often "runs in families."

But in fact so many of those who served in Vietnam were drafted and never would have been soldiers if they hadn't been, so that fact affects their feelings about war and the military quite a bit, I think. My daughter's biodad was a doorgunner near Cu Chi (where the famous tunnels were) and he had volunteered for Vietnam, though he joined knowing he would be drafted anyway, at age 26. He was a little older than most of the guys there -- at least the ones who were "11-Bs" or "grunts" ... the "cannon fodder" our government had to come up with to keep as many as half a million troops incountry at a time. Many officers and career servicemen from that era still feel the U.S. did a good thing in Vietnam because the stand America took there at least "kept the dominoes from falling," even if Vietnam eventually went communist.

Perhaps the saddest thing is that everyone knows the U.S. could have won that war, in terms of sheer military capability; but the civilian politicians micro-managing it wouldn't let them. I see a very similar thing going on in Iraq right now, in a way, since it's definitely not the fault of the average guy serving in uniform that everything's a mess there. Many of the generals and other outspoken higher echelon officers speaking out against the way this action has been handled from the git-go have been confirming my feeling that it may have been wrongheaded (surely it was) to deploy our troops to Iraq in the first place, but it damn sure could have been handled a LOT better than it has been!

Those things you've endured as a soldier's wife, especially from some who have treated you so badly, make me very sad for you ... and proud of you as well for standing up and protesting U.S. involvement in Iraq.

But tragically such despicable behaviors remind me of the Vietnam era, as well, when there was so much bitter enmity between certain "types" of American civilians. The passions just boiled over after several years of war and so much loss and grief, and as a nation of free people it just tore us apart. And I'm so glad your husband didn't believe that lying jerk who told him you were cheating on him. What a wicked trick for that creep to pull on you! Such people ought to be hog-tied and given a public whipping IMO.

I remember the truck drivers you mentioned who refused to drive a very dangerous road and who were arrested for court-martial for it -- and like you I have wondered what ever happened to them. I certainly understand how difficult it is for any soldier, drafted or volunteer, to refuse "legal" orders. I totally agree with your putting "war" in quotes and viewing our presence there as an occupation and the initial attacks as an invasion. I hadn't thought about the reason you gave for our "leadership" using the term "war" instead, but it makes perfect sense. Notice I always put "leaders" and "leadership" in quotes as well, and that's because I consider what they are as far from being real leaders!

I wish you received more kind consideration from all DUers, because I think you have really valuable knowledge and insights to offer us, and it's not right that you don't always feel free to share them. I guess it's difficult for those who have never been involved in the culture of the military to understand WHY more soldiers do not refuse to follow orders. It's not like that culture gives every soldier the right to say "No" to commands, nor do they have the opportunity to do research or act on their own observations on duty and tell their "bosses" to shove it and walk away!

Thanks again for your reply, peacebaby, and you have my support and a hearty "hooah" for your courage! And please pass my thanks along to your husband for his service also, will you? I'm so glad he is retiring soon, and I hope he isn't redeployed so you both can breathe easy once again.

[peacebaby3]

31. Thank you for asking. Many don't take the time to ask.

I will certainly pass the message along to my husband as well.

Where we live, most the Nam vets we have met have been very critical of Bush* and the entire administration and some have been very hostile toward them. Our state is very red so it's a real treat to run into some of these vets because they don't give a crap who they are talking to, they just say exactly what is on their mind.

The one thing I have learned about many of the guys that serve with my husband is how most are very a-political. Politics doesn't seem to play that big a role to them. Most that are very political tend to be more conservative, but I think this "war" has started to make some of them pay more attention and most that pay attention seem to be very unhappy with the current "leaders." I'm sure the military is still republican, but I think the ranks of the Democrats have grown over the last few years.

[ljm2002]

23. "He's the Universal Soldier...

...and he really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
He fights for <...?> and you and me,
And brother can't you see
This is not the way we put an end to war"

Typed from memory -- while humming the tune. What a great song.

Okay wait a minute, here's the actual last stanza of the song, written by Donovan:

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.

Okay, pretty close -- here's a link to the full lyrics:

http://www.lyricsdomain.com/4/donovan/universal_soldier.html

It's not so much dissing soldiers, or putting the burden all on them -- rather acknowledging the power of the individual to make a choice, and if enough individuals made a certain choice it would send a message. It's a variation on the question, "What if they gave a war and nobody came?" Totally idealistic, but lovely...

[vickitulsa]

28. Thanks for doing the background on the song.

I've been hearing the tune and lyrics in my head all day after bringing it up, and you're right, it's a great song in its own way. It was one of many war-protest "anthems" we heard in those days.

I'm sorta shocked to learn that Buffy didn't write it, though! Not surprised that Donovan did, however. If that makes sense. ;)

I had every album Buffy had out in those days, loved her work (and could even imitate her voice and singing style). I also had many Donovan records and he's one of my favorites of all time, like Buffy. I guess since all I had heard her perform had been her own compositions, I assumed (never a smart thing) that "Universal Soldier" was too. Many songwriters who are also performers don't "cover" other artists' songs.

Buffy had at least one other big hit you may recall, the tragically beautiful "Now That The Buffalo's Gone," which was the song I sang when I imitated her.

I'm a singer/songwriter myself, I guess you can tell, so I tend to really think about what an artist's intent is in a particular song. I have to agree that probably neither Buffy St. Marie nor Donovan Lietch intended to "diss" the soldiers; rather they probably only wanted to make the points you made in your post, idealistic though it may have been to ever dream that all soldiers worldwide would "refuse to attend" the next time someone "gave a war." !!

What bothered me about Universal Soldier was that it was such a HUGE hit, everybody knew it, and I'm afraid some anti-war people took it to encourage attacks on soldiers, both vets and those on the troop trains and busses headed to boot camp or to be shipped out to Nam. Remember the fires protesters set on the train tracks? I can't begin to imagine how those guys on the train must have felt... talk about conflicted!

Also, on Buffy's release of this song, I'm pretty sure she changed the lyric slightly, on that very line where you'd left a blank when you typed from memory. I think what she sang instead of Donovan's words there were:

"They come from him, and you and me"

She emphasized the "him" vocally. I think by doing this she meant to focus on the idea that it was each individual soldier's conscience that "gave him orders," so to speak. Interesting....

[jukes]

5. same bullshit

they tried to pass on ARVN troops. truth is, they're an occupied country and everyone but the collaborators want us out.

[pocket]

9. typical bullshit racism

about what I've come to expect

[JCMach1]

13. Sorry, but no-- there is more than likely some truth to this...

typical work days in the middle-east oil countries run 4-5 hours. Government workers (nationals) in the UAE, for example work from 8-1. They also get breaks!

Banks here also keep the same hours (8-1).

[peacebaby3]

17. Thanks for letting us know this. I was going to ask my husband when I

talk to him tonight.

There are definitely some cultural differences, but I wasn't sure about work schedule, etc.

I know that you are definitely not suppose to extend your right hand or shake with your right hand to greet someone in Iraq. They use that hand to wipe themselves after a trip to the toilet (it is my understanding they use it and wash it off) so it is considered very insulting.

My husband said down in the South (Shia area) it is very hard to watch how some of the women are treated, but the soldiers have to be very, very careful about getting involved because they can be accused of many things and they are told to respect the culture, but he said he saw some things that really bothered him.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. They're on CP Time, see?

:eyes:

The monumental joke continues. In Vietnam, they used to run hammer and anvil sweeps, placing a number of ARVN battalions in the anvil role while US rifle companies pushed the VC thataway. Except the press-ganged ARVN soldiers were too busy deserting, stealing livestock, and cutting deals on US AID corrugated metal roofing to ever set up the anvil, so any enemy units caught in the sweep would just mosey on through the hole, leaving the US rifle companies with losses and nothing to show for it. Of course, it was "cultural" there too - if by cultural you mean that the ARVN had no reason to give a fuck about the commands or strategies emanating from the mighty MACV.

[vickitulsa]

29. I just had to reply to you.

I've talked a lot on this thread already but it's a subject near to my heart.

You talked in your post like someone who's definitely a veteran of Vietnam, and I must say, I keep thinking of the ARVN too, when I hear about the Iraqi troops. They are not comforting thoughts....


And if I'm right about you, WELCOME HOME, buddy. :hug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. Sorry, no...just read a lot

born 1973, actually. :-)

but i do welcome home anybody who did go.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Didn't we say the same thing in Nam?

Oh and didn't the british say the same thing about Indians, South Africans... what is the name... oh yes... white man's burden

Has it occured to this Lt that just maybe the Iraqi troops DO NOT wish to be seen as oh what is the other term I am looking> the Fifty cent word... the Lt (assuming he is a ring knocker) should be familiar with... oh yes, it is comming.. Quisling.

[entanglement]

22. So what's the plan, then? Stay there a dozen years more and hope

the Iraqis develop the Protestant work ethic? :eyes:

[Jacobin]

24. Actually, the Iraqi soldiers seem to be doing very well indeed

They are kicking our butts.

The Iraqis who are working for the U.S. are not doing particularly well, because, well, they aren't fighting for their own country, they are being paid by an illegal occupation force to go and shoot and kill their own countrymen who are fighting to eject the illegal occupation force, so I suspect their hearts aren't in it.

[Disturbed]

26. 70% Unemployment in Iraq.

It would seem possible that quite a few Iraqis join up just to have a job but aren't real thrilled to be in the Army or Police Force.

[NNN0LHI]

25. Cultural that the Iraqis don't want to kill their countrymen for Bush?

This is proof that we need to cut the military budget in half and devote the half we save to education in this country.

Don

[Ksec]

27. Hear here.

I vote we cut the budget in half, scrap the star wars and the flying saucer fighters (that are pigs at the trough,) and start taking care of the guys who die in these wars. The military has become a bloated pig at the expense of the guys who actually do the dirty work.