How many of these "illegal immigrants" are Catholic and PRO-LIFE?

[Tigermoose]

I know many here look favorable on the illegal immigrant protests. I, for one, welcome our new Mexican overlords :) Actually, I don't have a stance yet...I'm still researching and listening. But one thing that has occurred to me is that the Catholic church, politically, is well-served by a massive influx of traditional Catholic American citizens into the U.S.. I have noticed that the Catholic church is speaking up for the immigrants for "humanitarian" reasons. But do they have a political motive as well? Has Rome been acting to help coordinate these protests and movement in an attempt to solidify Rome-based Catholocism here in America? It is not uncommon knowledge that Rome has not been happy with the "liberal" social values of U.S Catholics. And as I have been studying Italian history lately, I have seen how the Roman Catholic church is in now way innocent of taking its part in secular politics to advance the Church's causes.

I also noticed that the greatest number of imigrants are flooding into a California, Texas, and Florida...three states with immense electoral votes.

Well, this might well be conspiracy theory non-sense. I just thought about this while seeing various articles and discussion board threads. In the past, churches have been successful in rallying their faithful for political reasons, and I wonder if this is partially the case here?

What do you think about illegal immigration now if it is true that a PRO-LIFE institution as powerful as the Catholic church might just be a major player in these protests?

An inquiring mind wants to know...what do you think?

[William769]

1. Going by tradition of the Hispanic community.

HUGE!

[mdmc]

2. well, if they are also against war, the death penalty, and poverty

I am all for it. All for it. (mexican overlords, lol :) )

[adriennui]

3. i've made up my mind on the economics

but i never considered the impact this would make on abortion rights. all things considered the illegal immigration of any group or nationality is not a good thing.
where are the demonstrations against the chimp's war? is this the only issue that can get the masses fired up? we may as well call it a day and say buh-bye to the US as we knew it.

[Cleita]

8. Yes, Hispanic women love being pregnant all the time.

:sarcasm:

When women are allowed to be in charge of their own fertility, the birth rate goes down. This is as true in the Hispanic community here in America as it is elsewhere.

[PublicWrath]

30. I don't think the original poster accused anyone of "overbreeding"

Tigermoose merely asked if Catholic immigrants would be more inclined to vote anti-choice.

I feel certain that the Pope, if asked the same question, would respond with a proud and resonant "Yes". So it's not necessarily an insulting aspersion against Catholics to suggest they might incline to an anti-choice position.

[question everything]

73. This was my first reaction when the protest starts

where are the marches against the war, against the depleting of the Federal funds for domestic programs, against lack of health care and against depletion of pension funds?

And this is how I realized that people care about what makes a difference for them and for their immediate family and friends now. And this is why we need to take our agenda to the coffee tables, to church basement, to the clinics.

[TX-RAT]

4. Most of them

[Bridget Burke]

5. Bill O'Reilly agrees with you.

Cardinal Roger Mahoney led LA Catholics on a day of prayer & fasting last Wednesday--for solidarity with immigrants.

The soft-spoken prelate last month became an unlikely protest leader by criticizing a House of Representatives bill that would make it a crime to help any of the nation's 12 million illegal immigrants.

Such a bill would compromise even those offering a meal to first aid to illegal immigrants, Mahony said, and he called in interviews and pulpit sermons for a campaign of civil disobedience by archdiocese priests.

Mahony's stance reflects the position of U.S. Catholic bishops as well as a coalition of labor unions and other religious groups working to defeat any bill that would turn the illegal immigrants into felons......

Some conservatives have attacked Mahony, calling his stance a desperate effort to increase Latino attendance in a church reeling from the priest sex abuse scandal.

Fox News' commentator Bill O'Reilly said last week that Mahony opposed the bill because he "knows he'll get those people in church when he doesn't have anybody in church anymore."

www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N05371035.htm

Yes, you're "listening"--now we know to whom.

[Cleita]

9. Yep.n/t

[William769]

10. I agree with the original poster & I never listen to Bill O'Reilly

But then again I don't keep my head in the sand either as to my surroundings.

[Zynx]

12. Do you think people should be excluded on the basis of political and

religious views?

[William769]

13. No. But that still doesn't change the facts.

[Zynx]

16. So, they are pro-life.

And your point is....? If you are not proposing excluding them, what is the point of this discussion? It's just something to think about?

[lastliberalintexas]

31. I think that many non-Catholics see the Church as much more of

a political animal than Catholics do, just as many of us also see the Southern Baptist Convention, The Liberty Foundation, the Christian Coalition and the 700 Club as political organizations rather than religious. And I think that some people might simply be wondering whether there was a *political* motive for the Church's involvement in this movement, just as many perceive moves by the SBC to be political rather than spiritual.


I hope that my post doesn't come across as anti-Catholic, because I'm not. I think they're just as crazy as the Baptists, Methodists, Jews, Muslims, etc., though not quite as nuts as the Southern Apostolics. ;)

(and please take that in the light hearted way it was intended)

[Bridget Burke]

63. Many non-Catholics have quite novel ideas about the Church.

They have for a long time. And not just in the USA.

www.ianpaisley.org/toc.asp?loc=rome

The SBC's involvement with the Republican party happened right here in Texas. It was not a "perception." It was real.

[mitchum]

84. I think most historians also see the church as a political animal

I wonder why?

[ClintonTyree]

92. And just think of how this would enhance the monetary....

position of the catholic church. Some catholic parishes have been hurting for the last decade or so. Just think about the influx of new cash this will mean to the church! A whole new source of revenue! Manna from heaven!
Unlike you, I DO have a very low opinion of the catholic church. The history of the church is riddled with blood, money and a exclusion; everything christianity purports to despise. I have no problem with pure christianity, but the bastardized versions that run amok today I DO have a problem with.

[William769]

38. I never said exclude them

I just stated that most Hispanics are catholic & prolife.

[blondeatlast]

28. I'm glad someone beat me to this.

Woodwork squeaks and out come the...

..people with eerily familiar talking points.

[Cleita]

6. And this has what to do with equal rights?

This is the issue, not abortion. Wedge issues are not what the immigrants are protesting so don't change the subject. Oh and your post says you do have a stance.

I haven't heard the blame the Vatican for everything you don't like in a long time. Only citizens can vote in this country, something that even the legal immigrants can't do until they become naturalized.

[NNN0LHI]

7. Put it this way. If they were Muslims they wouldn't have a chance n/t

[Zynx]

11. Hmmm...I smell the old school anti-Catholic immigration arguments of the

past in this thread. As someone who is descended from Irish and Polish Catholic immigrants, this sort of sentiment offends me. This wreaks of an agenda to keep people out because of their religious or political beliefs and I am disgusted.

[Cleita]

14. I'm offended twice as a Hispanic and former Catholic.

I'm no longer a Catholic because I don't believe in organized religion, any organized religion, but this Vatican bashing is really over the top.

[William769]

15. Well as a Christian

The Vatican has well earned all the bashing they get.

[Zynx]

18. Including all the conspiracy theories and the rest of it?

Sure, you can disagree with their pro-life and anti-homosexual stances, but this Catholic fear baiting is bizarre.

[mitchum]

20. Well, they ARE the original CORRUPT multinational corporation

[RagingInMiami]

59. We're talking immigrants

Not the goddamn Papists in Rome.

[JohnKleeb]

61. To many people they're one and the same

Thats part of why Al Smith lost in 1928 nad JFK nearly lost in 1960. I don't assume all methodists are the same because of Bush being one. I don't assume all muslims are the same because of Bin Laden and those killing innocents in Iraq. These immigrants as you say are human beings. They have a diverse system of beleifs just like you and I do.

[mitchum]

85. The history of the machinations of the vatican is NOT some kind...

of MADE UP bullshit like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" or Illuminati or Freemasonry or even freakin' lizard people "conspiracies"
Or is it the the result of some kind of ant-catholic ax to grind on the part of western historians? Sure...

For the record, I consider the protestants to be just as bad.

[RagingInMiami]

86. As I said

We're talking about immigrants. Save that argument for another thread.

[William769]

39. What part of history would you like to me to sart?

We could start with the crusades, or the spanish inquisition, or WWII & the Nazis, or how about as recent as all the pedophiles.

Thats just off the toop of my head. I am sure with a google search there will be a slew more.

[Zynx]

Edit: Double Post

[Zynx]

66. I knew you would bring up the Nazis.

If you actually bothered to truly study that you know that there's a big difference between the local Catholic officials and Vatican policy. Local Catholic bishops did get in bed with the Nazis, that much is indisputable. However, so did hundred and even thousands of Lutheran ministers who at best did nothing and at worst collaborated. Catholics are and were a minority in Germany. To pretend it was just some Catholic thing is absurd.

Secondly, Pius XII himself was nothing at all like a Nazi sympathizer. Granted, he could have and should have done more. Acting in the interests of self-preservation is not good enough for a man who is supposed to be a man of God. However, that is entirely different than saying he was in league with the Nazis. It is also not even clear that he did nothing. There was a top Israeli official back in the 1960s who credited Pius XII with saving as many as 600,000 Jews in WWII. I don't know if it is that high, but there are confirmed reports of thousands being saved in Italy alone that are very credible.

[William769]

74. Well at least you didn't try to dispute the other allegations.

Thats a start.

By the way, the The Pope & the Nazis is indisputable.

[Zynx]

77. No it isn't. There is a reason it is a matter of intense historical debate

And besides, I could point out dozens of Protestant atrocities of equal savagery to the other cases you brought up. Ever see what the English did to Ireland in the 1600s? Oliver Cromwell alone committed unspeakable acts of brutality that killed at least tens of thousands.

Back on the issue of Pius XII and the Nazis, it is interesting to note that at the time there was no feeling at all that he was in league with the Nazis. On the contrary, Hitler felt that Pius XII was a thorn in his side and even drew up plans to knock him off. Western media during WWII praised Pius XII for condemning totalitarianism and war. Now, even I confess that he didn't do all he could. I would have risked the very security of the Vatican to stop Hitler. However, when you compare Pius XII who at least did somethings to FDR, who knew about the Holocaust as well, who did nothing for the reason that it was not politically convenient, he stacks up reasonably well.

[Bridget Burke]

69. The "more pro-life voters" argument serves you better.

Hatred of all things Catholic turns many of us OFF! Including this Agnostic/Atheist.

[William769]

75. Just stating the facts, sorry if you don't like them.

[Zynx]

78. No, you are spouting, at best, "truthiness".

I can see you hate the Catholic church and that's a position millions hold. You could at least be kind enough to come out and state it explicitly rather than trying to maintain the auspices of objectivity.

[William769]

79. I hate what they stand for. Does that make you feel better?

They are as big a threat if not bigger than the ones trying to run our Government right now.

[Inland]

94. I say, crusaders and inquisitors should NOT be allowed in!

Or anyone who participated in WWII. Oh, wait, I meant, none of the losing sides....well, no nazis. There, I said it!

[Cleita]

22. Yes, but should they be bashed for problems they had no

hand in? I'm sorry but the Vatican has no interest in our electoral votes at all and to scapegoat them with such an outrageous claim is disingenuous.

Also, as a Christian, do you agree with everything the Dominionists are doing in our country? If there is any religious community to blame for trying to get our electoral votes, it's them.

[PsN2Wind]

25. IF, as you say, "The Vatican has no interest"

why did several Catholic Bishops come our against Kerry, even saying he wouldn't be given communion?

[Cleita]

35. Because they could.

Also, Catholic clergy come in all stripes too, from ultra liberal to ultra conservative. You leave out the Bishops who didn't make threats and who were more numerous that the ones who did.

Incidentally, Kerry was never refused communion when he went to church because the Catholic congregations as a whole disapproved of the stands those Bishops took.

[PublicWrath]

42. Kerry got communion because if he'd been refused the church would

have been heavily criticised for meddling so blatantly in politics.
And thus the Church managed to assert its anti-choice position and while suggesting to Catholic voters that a vote for Kerry was a vote against the Church, with much publicity and without penalty.

[lastliberalintexas]

27. And that is the point at which we diverge

"I'm sorry but the Vatican has no interest in our electoral votes"

On that, we will simply have to agree to disagree. I believe that most organized religions have very great stakes in our political process and results, unfortunately, and I dearly wish it were not so.


As for the Catholic bashing, I'll simply say that Catholics don't get bashed any more or less than most other religions on this board. Being an agnostic, I must say I'm really quite ambivalent about it all. :)

[Cleita]

34. If they were truly going for our electoral votes, immigrants who

can't vote isn't the way to do it. That alone should tell you that.

No one in the Vatican is telling Mexicans to come here to vote.

[Breeze54]

47. You said it!

and as the great-great-grand daughter of legal Irish immigrants,
whom also were catholic, I'm not offended at all!
It 'appears' that the 'anti-choice' catholic church is trying to 'stack the deck', so to speak.
Cardinals were called out and were out giving speeches today to the demonstrators.

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/BO17601/
snip-->
"Cardinal Sean O'Malley, archbishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Boston,
addressed the crowd at Copley in English, Spanish and Portuguese."

People carried signs saying,
"Justice and respect for all immigrants," and "Today we march, tomorrow we vote."<--snip

Snip-->
Pro-immigration groups lost a local battle in January, when the Massachusetts House
rejected a bill that would have let undocumented immigrant students who graduate from
Massachusetts high schools pay the same in-state tuition at state colleges as
Massachusetts residents. Noorani said the bill will be reintroduced, but that the groups'
current focus is on pushing lawmakers to approve extra state funds for organizations that
walk immigrants through the citizenship process.
Many immigrants can't afford the $3,000-or-so cost of hiring an immigration lawyer, he said,
and need help from nonprofits.
Massachusetts has the seventh largest documented immigrant population --
comprising 14 percent of all residents, according to MassINC and the Center for Labor
Market Students at Northeastern University. Documented immigrants in the state's
workforce have nearly doubled to 17 percent in the past 25 years.

Just to add a little flavor:
http://boston.bizjournals.com/boston/stories/2006/03/20/daily36.html?jst=b_ln_hl
Mass. unemployment rate tops national rate for first time in a decade.
snip-->The number of unemployed climbed to 168,300, up from 156,100 in January.<--snip

This is about economics!

MINE!!!

[Zynx]

67. Have you ever considered that Mexican immigrants have wide ranging

political views in spite of the church? Have you ever considered that for just one second? To assume that they are all mindless obeyers of church doctrine is nothing short of racist.

[Breeze54]

71. From the National Council of La Raza...

http://www.nclr.org/content/publications/download/28218
How Did Latinos Really Vote in 2004?
This file is a 75 Kb Adobe Acrobat (PDF).

Notwithstanding the complexity of the issues involved, and the fact that some crucial data are,
as yet, unavailable, this preliminary analysis does permit three clear conclusions about the
Hispanic vote in 2004.
In both 2004 and 2000, President George W. Bush attracted a substantial and increasing
share of the Latino vote, compared to previous Republican presidential candidates.
Given the uncertainties inherent in exit polling and other survey research, the precise share
of the Hispanic vote received by the President and Senator Kerry in 2004 will never be known,
although undoubtedly it will be a subject of continuing research, analysis, and controversy.
After reviewing the available data carefully, NCLR s sense is that NEPs reported
53% Kerry - 44% Bush results for Hispanic voters in 2004 are at the extreme end of plausibility.

[Zynx]

76. And the point is...what?

[Cobalt Violet]

91. And mine!!

:thumbsup:

[Bridget Burke]

64. And Catholics aren't Christian....

Your anti-Vatican bias has is showing! When did the Pope say "let's start some demonstrations in the USA"?

[etherealtruth]

21. You and me, both Zynx

Oddly, all are democrats and most pro-choice.

Many are like me, "culturally" Catholic or Agnostic Catholics vs. practicing Catholics.

[JohnKleeb]

55. Yep

It offends and upsets me too.

[Saphire]

17. Mexican Overlords...LOL

[mitchum]

19. That's wht the gop has been $hilling for the Hispanic vote...

they assume that MANY are catholic and anti-choice

[Cleita]

23. One more time. THE IMMIGRANTS CAN'T VOTE BECAUSE

THEY AREN'T CITIZENS. If will take them years before they can be naturalized and then they can vote, but not before.

[mitchum]

43. I am well aware of that, as is the repub. party...

they have long range plans

[slackmaster]

26. Confusing the illegal immigrant population with Hispanic US citizens

The former are far more likely to be poor, undereducated, and Catholic. They are also not citizens, and cannot vote.

The latter are about as diverse as the US population in general. Most broad-brush assumptions about their attitudes and voting patterns tend to be wrong.

[slackmaster]

24. Probably about 90% active Roman Catholic

And 80-90% of Catholics are generally opposed to elective abortion.

[Xithras]

32. 62% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Consistent polling of Catholics has shown that they're split on the issue just like everybody else. Mexican Catholics are a little more traditional and tend to lean a little more heavily towards the conservative side of the abortion debate, but most are liberalized within a couple decades of entering this country.

And how do you define "active" Catholic? Weekly mass attendance? Whether they attend confession and pay their tithe? I think you'll find that most Mexican Catholics are a lot like most American Catholics...maybe 1/5th attend church on a regular, consistent, weekly basis. Your 90% is only accurate if you count in all of the Mexicans who only attend church on Easter and Christmas.

[PublicWrath]

40. Definition of "Catholic" is tricky for another reason, too....

Commonly, representatives of the Church include in their rolls all infants who have been baptised, whether these people are practicing Catholics, or have left the Church, or were only baptised Catholic because they were born in a Catholic hospital, etc.

It is very useful to the Church to rely on its own theological interpretation when defining the size of its flock because Church spokesmen quote these inflated numbers when applying pressure about various things.

[RB TexLa]

45. "opposed" to elective abortion does not equate to anti-choice

If by "generally opposed" you mean Catholics believe it to be a sin and immoral, then I would agree, I would probably say it is higher. I would think the overall belief that the act of pure elective abortion is not a moral one is pretty high across the religious/agnostic/atheist spectrum. Of course in the event of rape or incest the numbers change as more emotions are involved. This does not equate to being opposed to the right to choose an abortion.

If by "generally opposed" you mean believe it should be against the law I would think the numbers are lower.

[Zorra]

46. "nominally Roman Catholic 89%, Protestant 6%, other 5%"

CIA World Factbook

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html

[slackmaster]

72. Thanks for the link

I'd forgotten the CIA kept track of things like that.

89% RCC is a lot higher than the existing US population.

Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

[Zynx]

68. They may be morally opposed, but polling on the actual positions says

differently. I remember seeing stats that Catholics are right in line with the rest of the population on the issue of whether or not abortion should be legal.

[DBoon]

29. I am thankful to have a mayor named "Villaragosa"

instead of one named "Yorty"

I have seen nothing but good come from the Hispanic presence in SoCal politics. It has revitalized the Democratic Party and put a stop to 30 years of financial starvation caused by the Prop 13 mentality.

[Beacho]

33. My experience

Latinos refelect other groups and show a wide continuum on social issues, especially among Mexican-Americans. The Catholic Church is not the end all be all of decisions making among the hispanic community. In fact it has been losing ground as the #1 denonimation in Latin America, most notably Mexico.

[newswolf56]

36. Prodded by the Catholic Church, El Salvador has TOTALLY banned...

abortion in ANY AND ALL circumstances and made murderers out of women who break the law. The misogynistic terror state that has resulted, complete with "forensic vagina inspectors," is the subject of the lead article in this Sunday's New York Times Magazine.

A link to the New York Times Magazine report was posted here early Sunday morning but has since curiously vanished; perhaps someone denounced it as anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic or both, for it described in detail how the Catholic Church under its new ultra-reactionary Opus Dei pope used fear and misogynistic prejudice to totally nullify El Salvador's fledgling democratic process. However there are other links to the subject including this thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=863989

And this:

http://www.crlp.org/pr_01_1130salvador.html

Which includes a link to the detailed report upon which The New York Times Magazine piece is based and is further put into the larger sociological context of the post-revolutionary backlash of Catholic misogynism by this:

http://www.womenwarpeace.org/elsalvador/elsalvador.htm

Which in turn makes this link -- to a Manchester Guardian report on what is literally an international Christian Fundamentalist/Islamic Fundamentalist conspiracy against women and women's rights -- also extremely relevant:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,,1398055,00.html

As to the Catholic Church itself, under its present pope -- a throwback to Pius XII, who was openly a friend of Franco and secretly a friend of Hitler -- the Church is the personification of theocratic tyranny, as vindictive an enemy of liberty as any (other) tyrant. Note in this context the rise of Opus Dei (a major influence in the Franco Regime, which was as murderous to socialists as the Nazis were to Jews and Slavs) and the huge role Opus Dei played in the Church-sponsored total re-enslavement of El Salvadorean women.

As to what this might mean in the context of the U.S. immigration debate, it depends on the interplay of two factors: to what extent the viciously anti-woman, pro-theocracy Bush Regime intends to manipulate legal and illegal immigrant populations to serve its own goal of imposing theocracy on North America; and to what extent the immigrants seek to throw off the shackles -- including those of the Church -- that were characteristic of their homelands. In the past the breathing of free air has had wonderful, even miraculous-seeming results: note for example the "classically American" political independence rapidly assumed by the Irish, German and Korean immigrant communities. But -- especially given the corporation-theocrat alliance combined with corporate mass media and corporate-run public schools -- that old characteristic American freedom is long dead, never to be resurrected again. Yet history proves human behavior is never truly predictable: just as France's Ancien Régime never imagined it would be toppled by the sans culottes, no one -- not even Lenin and Trotsky themselves -- foresaw the Russian Revolution of 1917. So I would make no bets on any outcomes.

_________
Edit: typo.

[RagingInMiami]

51. Are we really going to start this anti-Catholic hysteria again?

Didn't we already go through that 150 years ago?

Ill will toward Irish immigrants because of their poor living conditions, and their willingness to work for low wages was often exacerbated by religious conflict. Centuries of tension between Protestants and Catholics found their way into United States cities and verbal attacks often led to mob violence. For example, Protestants burned down St. Mary’s Catholic Church in New York City in 1831, while in 1844, riots in Philadelphia left thirteen dead.

Anti-immigrant and anti-Catholic sentiments in the 1840s produced groups such as the nativist American Party, which fought foreign influences and promoted "traditional American ideals." American Party members earned the nickname, "Know-Nothings," because their standard reply to questions about their procedures and activities was, "I know nothing about it."

In the Questions for Admittance to the American Party (1854), inductees committed to "…elect to all offices of Honor, Profit, or Trust, no one but native born citizens of America, of this Country to the exclusion of all Foreigners, and to all Roman Catholics, whether they be of native or Foreign Birth, regardless of all party predilections whatever." This commitment helped elect American Party governors in Massachusetts and Delaware and placed Millard Fillmore on a presidential ticket in 1856.


http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/immig/alt/irish5.ht

[newswolf56]

82. That you maliciously label factual reporting "anti-Catholic hysteria"...

(and therefore vindictively slander me with an implicit accusation of bigotry as well) tells us everything we need to know about you, your values and most of all your hidden agenda. Denouncing feminism and supporting the infinitely vicious male-supremacist tyranny implicit in Abrahamic religion and then implying you do it in the name of some imagined coda of political correctness is merely an especially twisted expression of the patriarchal (and ultimately capitalist) penchant for perverting even the most libertarian impulses into an apparatus for enslavement.

As to the intrinsic tyranny of the Roman Catholic Church, history is unequivocal; the fact that residually pagan libertarian impulses sometimes rise to the Catholic forefront and are then promptly and methodically crushed -- for example Liberation Theology -- merely underscores the infinitely ugly lesson of history: no religion on earth has murdered more people for less reason than Christianity (though the other Abrahamic religions, Islam and Judaism, run close behind).

And since you apparently didn't read my last paragraph at all, here it is again:

As to what this might mean in the context of the U.S. immigration debate, it depends on the interplay of two factors: to what extent the viciously anti-woman, pro-theocracy Bush Regime intends to manipulate legal and illegal immigrant populations to serve its own goal of imposing theocracy on North America; and to what extent the immigrants seek to throw off the shackles -- including those of the Church -- that were characteristic of their homelands. In the past the breathing of free air has had wonderful, even miraculous-seeming results: note for example the "classically American" political independence rapidly assumed by the Irish, German and Korean immigrant communities. But -- especially given the corporation-theocrat alliance combined with corporate mass media and corporate-run public schools -- that old characteristic American freedom is long dead, never to be resurrected again. Yet history proves human behavior is never truly predictable: just as France's Ancien Régime never imagined it would be toppled by the sans culottes, no one -- not even Lenin and Trotsky themselves -- foresaw the Russian Revolution of 1917. So I would make no bets on any outcomes.

That (and the feminist sources upon which the post it concluded is based) are bigoted and "hysterical" only if you would deny us the right to free discussion -- just as the Church you so admire has done so many times in its blood-drenched and fire-blackened history: a history that is again relevant precisely because our own government is an active conspirator in the unprecedented effort to replace American liberty with an endless Dark Age of theocracy.

Or maybe -- since you seem to be such a reflexive defender of the Opus Dei brand of Christianity -- that is precisely what you want.

[Finder]

37. Anti-Death penalty, Anti-War, as well...

At least they are consistant. I think it is a mistake to assume anyone that does not agree with abortion would necessarily vote against privacy and equal rights.


Kucinich is pro-life, for example.

[RB TexLa]

41. a few facts

In all 32 states of the Mexican Republic, abortion is illegal, but an estimated 220,000 to 850,000 are performed annually, according to the National Population Council and an investigation by Dr. Raul Lopez Garcia when he was sub-director of the National Institute of Neonatology.


A recent poll conducted by Greenberg Research for the NARAL Pro-Choice America Foundation found 66 percent of Hispanic women supporting comprehensive sex education, including information about condoms and other forms of birth control, with only 30 percent favoring the "abstinence only" programs for which President Bush has doubled federal funding.

Total fertility rate:
Mexico 2.45 children born/woman (2005 est.)
US 2.08 children born/woman (2005 est.)


Mexico Roman Catholic 89%, Protestant 6%, other 5%
US Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002)

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/808
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=39136
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/factbook/

I guess all those abortions in Mexico must be from the 11% that make up Protestants and the "others"

Also if the legal immigrants adhere to this I guess they just didn't notice Bill Richardson's pro-choice stance. So maybe your concerns are backwards, maybe after they have legal status they support Democrats that are pro-choice. They did in New Mexico.

I love when peolpe tell me that Catholics all vote to end abortion rights. The church teaches it is a sin, the church also teaches masterbation is sex outside of marriage and is a sin, guess what I don't vote to criminalize masterbation either. And if there were such ridigity in following why, even if you remove as you put it we "liberal US Catholics" why are we still only a quarter of the population? Wouldn't just the traditinal hispanic Catholics that are either citizens or have legal status have made some kind of increase in the population?

[etherealtruth]

44. ...or, lets look north to Canada ...

....where ~ 44% of the population is Roman Catholic ... Isn't abortion available and funded by their health care system?

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/Religion/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo=PR&Code=01&View=1a&Table=1&StartRec=1&Sort=2&B1=01&B2=All

These arguments are sounding like the ones used to protest immigration by those ape-like papist from Ireland (1/2 of my ancestry). I guess bigotry never changes ...just some of the details.

http://www.cbctrust.com/faq.php#q11

[RagingInMiami]

48. Congratulations on finding yet another wedge issue

To divide those democrats who have not yet succumbed to the xenophobia that is sweeping DU.

[RB TexLa]

50. I'm waiting for

"oh and don't we have a majority Catholic supreme court to favor more Catholics coming into the country?" I'm sure Lou Dobbs will have something to say about the "societal effect" this will have on the middle class.


:banghead: :banghead:

[JohnKleeb]

53. Yeah I hear you

My family when it got here was drawn to the Democratic Party because it unlike a lot of the Republicans of that time it didn't play to anti Catholic bs, at least in the North that is.

[JohnKleeb]

49. Lovely of you to play to people's anti Catholic prejudice

You know that the xenophobes of the 1800's used anti Catholic bigotry to get their points across. Whether these immigrants are pro life or not doesn't matter. They are people. The Catholic Church has always had a more humanitarian stance on the immigration issue even before abortion became a political issue.

[RagingInMiami]

52. Read post 51

[JohnKleeb]

54. Thanks man, people like the OP are sounding like know nothings

Christ this is what I hear the 1920s was like all over again. I am a Catholic Democrat and you bet I am proud of that.

[RagingInMiami]

56. Well, I am an Agnostic Liberal

But I'm not about to start persecuting people because of their religion.

[JohnKleeb]

58. The durty of the liberal is to defend everyone

That means we stand up and criticize tyrants whether they be left wing ones like the Stalinst Lukashenko in Belarus or Right Wing ones like the Taliban was in Afghanistan. I appreciate you standing up for us. I can't believe how people are acting in this immigration debate.

[Bridget Burke]

70. The "Border Guardian" who burned a Mexican flag....

In front of Tucson's Mexican consulate identified himself as a "Nativist." Another word with a long history in this country.

[alittlelark]

57. Illegal immigration has been w/ us for ALL of my 40+ years... WHY

is it suddenly such a CRUCIAL ISSUE????????


Plame, 16 words, Iraq, Iran, medicare, the whole house of cards is falling down around them.... they NEED a divisive issue. It's a gamble - the BFEE corporate overlords NEED that cheap labor, but the US economy is diving past the red zone.....


They are desperate - TO DIVIDE Us - Don't be fooled by this 'NEW' critical issue.

I can't believe so many here are....

[imlost]

60. I don't know the numbers, but

as a Mexican immigrant myself, I'm culturally catholic and pro-choice. I would say that 98% of my Mexican family and friends are pro-choice. Most are Catholic and all use birth-control.

Don't make this an excuse to discriminate against a group of people.

[Lexingtonian]

62. We Don't Care.

If all 'illegals' were made citizens immediately, that would be a 3-5% increase in the size of the electorate. If they, as expected, vote at rates that people in their place on the socioeconomic ladder do, it would be even less.

Yes, immigrants tend to be culturally traditionalist. Their children less so. And if immigrants are conservative relative to the U.S. population, they do very much conform to the changing mores and social developments of their birth country/society.

Worldwide, the story is a trend toward legalized abortion and gay marriage rights. Abortion legalization is beginning in Latin America because the abortion rate is as high as is. There's a longish article in the NYT in early December (around the 9th iirc) about it.

The RCC knows it's fighting a battle it will lose in the First and eventually the Second World soon enough, and it's on the wrong side of social justice and science. My own thought on this seeming irrationality is that for the RCC this is not about the societies it works in, so much, as an effort at imposing a discipline within itself for the long term. It's really about its own celibacy and purity, in the end, about creating a distinction between itself and the Modern world that people on this side of the argument don't even know to be a dilemma or crisis for it.

[Bridget Burke]

65. The Evolution of anti-"illegal" Arguments at DU

1)"They drive down the wages of The American Worker!"

2) "They are ILLEGAL, I tell you, ILLEGAL!" (Upper case Compulsory.)

3) "The Mexican Flags send the wrong message!"

4) "It's all a Popish Plot!"

They should have stuck with Talking Point #1. But concern about The American Worker might lead to a higher minimum wage. And more, stronger Unions. And better, cheaper health care for all. And more money spent on education--for all children.

"Sounds a little Commie/Pinko. Let's find another Talking Point."

[Horse with no Name]

88. And if we try really hard

we might even be able to pin the assassination of JFK on them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. Mexico has a higher abortion rate than the U.S.A.

Mexico 25.1 per 1000 women aged 15-49

http://ideas.ipas.org/cgi-bin/ideas.ipas.org/ideas.cgi?request=Repro&COUNTRY=Mexico

USA 16 per 1000 women aged 15-49

http://ideas.ipas.org/cgi-bin/ideas.ipas.org/ideas.cgi?request=Repro&COUNTRY=United%20States

So, I guess they're all going to come here and become frothing pro-preggers?

[Zynx]

83. Fear the papists! They're a bunch of like minded idiots!

We all know that all Catholics think alike about everything, especially when they're MEXICAN!/sarcastic rant off

[itcfish]

81. So What?

Yeah the Catholic Church has a tradition of helping immigrants. What is your point?

[Horse with no Name]

87. Why do you assume they are PRO-LIFE?

They could very well be pro-choice and CHOOSE to have children. Choice isn't always about abortion, you know.:)

[fleabert]

89. My Mexican, non-catholic husband thinks this idea is crazy.

sorry.

[jukes]

90. most i've seen in GA are

"iglesia batista"; equally "anti-choice".

[Inland]

93. Part of the question about immigration is political changes.

Illegals are largely underground, so nobody knows. Part of the immigration question is guessing about the political changes from immigration, though, and it's a legitimate question. I'm much less concerned about any particular issue than the bigger concepts--how do they feel about democracy, unions, equal rights PERIOD?