Framing the debate: "illegal" immigrants

[TechBear_Seattle]

People are not illegal, not in this country (at least, not yet.) People who are in the country illegally... that is a different matter. We should not use "illegal immigrant", as it implies that such people have broken the law merely by existing.

Discuss. :hi:

[democrat_patriot]

1. If they didn't emigrate here legally they are illegal.

Here are the forms.


http://uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/index.htm

[greekspeak]

17. My ancestors spent hundreds of years taking this continent over

In my mind, every one was an illegal immigrant. Did they get some sort of permission to move here? No. They did not. They just took, as Western Christianity of the day told them to. The world is your oyster, little christian. Take of it what you want and shuck the rest. Fuck forms. Who in America actually has the right to make up such forms?

[msongs]

2. here's a few choices for you....

one extreme is "invaders" and the other is "citizenship-challenged".

We could treat our "illegal immigrants" the way Mexico treats theirs, we can just ignore them,
we can welcome them with open arms without changing their status, or give out citizenship at the borders,
no questions asked.

the range of possibilities is mind boggling, eh?

Msongs
www.msongs.com/impeachbush.htm

PS - if the job of the president is to protect and defend the borders, bush certainly deserves to be impeached,
no matter what your view of immigration may be, as he is certainly a failure at doing this.

[TahitiNut]

5. Mexico does NOT 'ignore' their illegal immigrants.

They arrested and deported about 300,000 last year over their southern border!

If you think Mexico 'ignores' people who break their laws, I hope you never get arrested there! Mexico's economy is still a disaster - a banana republic with 1% very wealthy and 99% poor. Mexico has an extremely racist society, with indigenous people oppressed widely. Good grief! Why the hell do one-sixth of their own citizens live in the US? Hint: it's not because Mexico has a colder climate.

[pitohui]

20. tahitinut has it right

mexico is a beautiful place to visit if you have $$$, they are not interested in bums setting up shop in their fair land and it won't be tolerated, i admit there are areas of mexico where i wouldn't mind building a house...but i don't meet their income requirements

don't believe me, try it and see for yourself, the border is easily enough crossed

[TahitiNut]

3. How about "trespassers"?

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

4. Just as silly as saying there are no "illegal" firearms

Merely unlawful possession of a legal one.

:eyes:

[Cleita]

6. What they did was cross the border illegally.

It doesn't make them criminals. It's like running a red light, illegal but not criminal.

[PsN2Wind]

23. Presenting a false of stolen or bought Social Security

is a felony. So an illegal immigrant that is working in this country has committed a felony.

[Cleita]

24. Can you back that felony with a statute or something like that?

[PsN2Wind]

27. Don't ask me to do research for you

just prove me wrong...........if you can.

[Cleita]

34. Research?

You are the one who should be able to back your statements. I don't think you can.

[PsN2Wind]

41. If it's that easy

prove me wrong. Or go to the SSA website and check the penalty for use of illegal Social Security number.

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. Usually, not so

An employer who hires an undocumented worker generally knows he is hiring an undocumented worker, and does not ask for any kind of social security number. Or, as I have seen happen, the employer will provide fake credentials. In either situation, it is employer who commits a criminal act, not the worker.

[Cleita]

37. Thank you.

I knew the poster was full of hot wind.

[PsN2Wind]

43. Here in Tucson

a couple of weeks ago they busted some illegal immigrants that would provide anyone a social security card, drivers license, etc for $150.00.

[TechBear_Seattle]

46. I am not saying that there are not criminals

I am saying that it is unfair, untrue and bigoted to paint the whole group with a brush representing only a small subsection of the group. Notice my use of weasel words like "usually" and "most" :hi:

To assert that all undocumented immigrants are criminals because some few engage in criminal activities is no different than... well, replace "undocumented immigrants" with "blacks", "Jews", "Catholics", "homosexuals", whatever minority is most meaningful to you.

[JuniperLea]

7. The corporations who hire them are the criminals

I can't believe this is being framed in such a way as to place all blame on the people themselves.

Mexico has a criminal president; the USA has a criminal president; American corporations who break the law by hiring people who came here illegally are criminals. You can't blame the people for wanting to feed their families. I'd break any law necessary to feed mine. I have never been put in that situation, thanks to a roll of the cosmic dice, I was born here.

All that being said, the audacity it takes to claim some rights in a foreign country is mind-boggling. But if my kids needed fed, clothed, schooled and medical attention, I'm sure I'd find it in me.


I'm still waiting for those $50 and hour lettuce picking jobs McCain talked about. I have my jeans, my work gloves and my hat all ready!

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. Someone who gets my point

"I can't believe this is being framed in such a way as to place all blame on the people themselves."

The GOP and other neo-cons are doing exactly that: framing the issue in a way that makes the immigrants to be inherent criminals. We need to stop following the lead of the bigots.

[JuniperLea]

9. I think it's the old bait and switch

Attempt to make us hate the people for taking jobs that corporate America has no intention of paying a decent wage for, pretend we have an immigration problem so they can make it ok for those corporations to pay substandard wages. We have immigration laws that are being ignored. We don't need new laws that PRETEND to be good for all concerned.

The GOP is wrong. Americans would take those jobs if they paid a decent wage.


This whole deal is shameful... up one side and down the other.

[Igel]

11. Then who is to blame for their being here?

BTW, they're not inherently criminals and nobody is claiming they are; they broke the law by entering the country illegally and remaining. Since position is typically termed a 'state', they have an illegal status. They can revoke that status by leaving or by regularizing their status.

Thieves also aren't inherently criminal, they break the law by taking things illegally.

Trespassers aren't inherently criminal; they break the law by being on private property without permission, hence illegally.

Even murderers aren't inherently criminal; they break the law by killing illegally.

Do we want to say that we shouldn't place all the blame on thieves, murderers, and trespassers for what they do? Granted, there may be the occasional mitigating circumstances, but those are fairly exceptional.

Come to think of it, 'inherently criminal' is a fairly meaningless expression, unless we put psychopaths in that category. But even then, nobody's jailed for being a psychopath (leaving asylums out of the picture), are they? They're just predisposed to being criminals, I guess.

[JuniperLea]

13. Mexico and the USA

The Mexican government for making their lives so unbearable they must flee their own country. The US government for not enforcing immigration laws. US corporations for making it attractive to come here and earn next to nothing.

Simple.

[TechBear_Seattle]

42. Do we speak of "illegal thieves"?

What about illegal trespassers, or illegal murderers? Why, then, do you speak of "illegal immigrants"?

I do not challenge that their actions are illegal. I am challenging the way they are being labelled "illegal." Semantics, yes, but there is a lot of power in words when semantics are used to denigrate a whole class of people.

[mondo joe]

44. For the simple reason that immigrants can be legal or illegal.

There are no legal thieves, so the term would be redundant.

And for the duration of their stay in the us they are doing something illegal.

[TahitiNut]

25. Yep. You got it. The only beneficiaries are the neocolonialists.

They've used NAFTA to decimate domestic industries in Mexico and labor in the US.

[Igel]

10. Not this drivel again.

People really should be made to at least understand what appears to be their native language, and make the cognitive leap that given the kinds of ambiguity in natural language a modicum of good will and cooperativeness is essential. But, no: they hear a nifty slogan and their cognitive processes grind to a halt.

A slow runner is not (usually) a slow person who runs; it may be, but it's usually a person who runs slowly. An accurate shot is not an accurate person who shoots, but is a person who shoots accurately: an 'accurate person' makes little sense. A poor student is not (necessarily) a poor person who studies, but a person who studies poorly; but 'a poor person who studies' is a possible reading of the phrase. A bad baseball player is not usually a bad person who plays baseball, but a person who plays baseball badly. The point: the adjective formally modifying a noun that expresses the agent engaging in an activity may easily not attribute a property to the agent per se but instead function as an adverb modifying the activity. Every native speaker of English understands this possible mismatch between the formal properties of the noun phrase and the way the noun phrase is interpreted.

Now let's consider "illegal immigrant". Is it 'an illegal person who immigrates' or "a person who immigrates illegally"? Ah, well, it can only be the one that makes no sense seems to be the thinking. We must, to make a political point, suddenly suspend how we normally understand out language in order to make the opponents' speech offensive and incomprehensible.

For fun, consider that many a deverbal noun can have an adjective that *actually* functions as a kind of prepositional phrase: a backseat driver is not 'a person in the backseat who drives' but one that apparently is at least attempting to drive from the back seat. A talented musician isn't a person with talent who plays music, but a person who plays music with talent; after all, a person with talent who plays music might be a very good chess player, but who has a tin ear--hardly a 'talented musician' (although I think in the right context I could force that reading).

I assume that "bad baseball player" is now a moral judgment--and only a moral judgment; a 'poor student' can only be an impoverished student; and to call somebody a 'slow runner' must--as far as you're concerned--be insulting to their mental faculties. And the phrase 'accurate shot' can never be uttered, simply because 'accurate person' is pretty much gibberish.

Or is it that you understand those phrases, and may even use them, mustering up the ability to actually parse the expressions in an intelligible way because there are no political points to be made or motive for compelling people to accept a forced, barely understandable interpretation?

[JuniperLea]

12. Not this condescension again!

Someone needs to contact all grocery stores and tell them the correct wording would be, "Ten items or fewer."




"1144014"

[Igel]

14. I'm not the one saying that people are

improperly using language by saying 'illegal immigrant'. The poster I responded to is alleging that people like me must mean a certain thing when we don't (so he's wrong on that point), and he claims that such a meaning is not only grammatically not available but also morally wrong and degrading. I find that condescending, even were the claim possible; I reply with well-deserved condescension when confronted with language police. Especially when the language policeman in this case is simply incorrect, and the way he uses language himself, no doubt, shows him to be inconsistent, if not hypocritical.

I prefer 'ten items or fewer', but that's pretty much a lost cause. My expectation is that I use it properly, which isn't hypocritical. Note that I don't go around insisting that others must say "ten items or fewer" or, in an even closer parallel to what I replied to, "ten item or less".

If you don't like language police, that's fine; but don't confuse the language police with somebody arguing against language police brutality.

[greekspeak]

19. I am a native speaker of English and I STILL do not "understand" English

It is a silly language. At least the "illegal" immigrants speak a language with more logic.

[sandnsea]

15. Worker Exploitation

We're all in the same boat, all over the world. That's the main issue. Secondary, they're undocumented workers who wouldn't be here if WE didn't accept their exploitation.

The whole reaction just goes to show how full of shit so many Americans really are, even Democrats. That's why we have such a helluva time winning elections.

[Cleita]

16. Best assessment I have read yet about the problem.

:thumbsup:

[sandnsea]

21. Response has made me sick

From McCain's idiotic comment about $50 an hour lettuce pickers that is so out of touch with the reality of ALL workers, to the distortion of what is actually being proposed in Congress, to the idiocy of fences and felonies, the whole thing has been just a disgraceful display by the majority of the country. From all sides. I wish I could make a magic machine that would just SHAKE PEOPLE!! Grr.

[Cleita]

29. I'll tell you something if they make crossing a line a felony

or working a felony, then I wouldn't blame the immigrants for committing real felonies like robbing banks and burglarizing the homes of the rich. If you are going to risk spending the same time in jail just for working at a crappy job, then you might as well think big.

[pitohui]

18. what is to discuss?

they broke the law, they are here illegally

a long-winded discussion of semantics is pointless

it is as silly as telling me that i am vertically challenged, fuck it, i'm short, yes, i would rather not be short, i realize being short is a bad thing to be and people literally look down on me because of it, but nothing is changed by calling me vertically challenged instead of calling me short, you are just insulting me by implying that on top of being short i'm a thin-skinned wuss

people are defined by their actions and the actions of a person who decides to break the law to make life easier for himself means that person is not, by definition, as honorable as the person who works within the law and accepts the challenge of improving himself in an open, honest fashion

we can wuss around the point all we like but it doesn't change anything

[Inland]

22. Sometimes, I admit that "liberal" and "democrat" deserve to be a punchline

And this is one of those times.

Such people have broken the law, not merely by existing, but by immigrating.

They immigrated. They are immigrants. They immigrated contrary to the law. They are "illegal immigrants" because they are "illegally immigrated", as I am a "drunk driver" for as long as I am "drunkenly driving".

But you could also just call them "criminals".

[Cleita]

26. So now it's criminal to be born on the other side of the

border and crossing that border illegally because you are poor and illiterate. Boy we get more and more like Nazi Germany every day.

[Inland]

28. And this is one of those times.

Yes, it's illegal to break the law, Yes, break the law and you are a criminal, and No, having laws doesn't make a country all THAT much like Nazi Germany.

You can say it's a bad law, but nothing changes the proper terms. Illegal immigrants and criminals until the law is changed.

[Cleita]

30. So in your mind it's so illegal that these people

should get charged with felonies for working at a crappy job that they would get the same jail sentence as a robber or burglar? Then yes it's the same as Nazi Germany. In Nazi Germany it became illegal for the Jews to shop for food, so they had to break the law to eat. This is no different.

[Inland]

35. No, I don't favor draconian penalities.

But it's still illegal, even if the penalty isn't draconian. Therefore I have no problem with illegal immigrants, or criminals, as terms.

But it's pretty funny you won't let go of the Nazi Germany analogy. You realize that Israel has immigration laws, just like every other country, right? Or maybe they aren't sensitive enough to the fascist peril?

[Cleita]

39. Okay now you understand there are grades of illegal

and many illegal acts are not crimes. No what I was referring to is that in Nazi Germany certain segments of the population were regarded as illegal like Jews, homosexuals and Roma. Even if they were born in Germany, they weren't considered German. In the case of the Jews laws were passed that prevented them from shopping even for food. So to eat they had to break the law. If Americans don't see what is happening here with these immigrant laws then I can understand how the PNAC has gained power.

[Inland]

45. No, I DON'T understand that many illegal acts are not crimes.

I've really got no problem with the term "illegal immigrants" or "criminals". And unless an immigration law is a violation of human rights, I really don't see the analogy to Nazi Germany. All that the illegal immigrant has to do is comply with the law, no matter what his racial identity, and he's good as gold.

Bottom line, it's the law you don't like, and you don't want enforced, and you don't want anyone noticing that it's being broken, and the lawbreakers stigmatized as, well, lawbreakers. Instead, you'll stigmatize everyone else as Nazis. Hoo, boy. What do I have to do to catch a break in this country? Sneak in?

[Cleita]

47. I do want something done for everyone involved, the employer,

the worker, everybody so that everyone gets a fair shake. I don't like what is being done because it's plainly cruel and if you don't get that then I'm sorry I wasted your time.

[mondo joe]

38. Since Mexico has immigration law would that make Mexicans Nazis?

Curious.

[mondo joe]

31. Yes, doing illegal things is still criminal.

You have to do some real mental acrobatics to come up woth something else.

[Cleita]

32. Is it criminal like robbery and burglary? I mean you can't

really think that working at a crummy low paying job is that criminal because if it is, then maybe they should be the robbers and burglars if they are going to spend the same time in jail.

[mondo joe]

36. "Illegal" covers a range of activities.

Working at a low paying job isn't criminal.

Crossing a border without authorization is.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

40. I find nothing dehumanizing about 'illegal immigrant'

It's just the legal definition of someone who enters the U.S. (or any other country) without the proper documentation (i.e., visa) or inspection. I am a legal immigrant or, in legalese, a legal alien. People who enter legally and then overstay their visas are not technically illegal; they are 'out of status.'

The way U.S. immigration law is, if someone enters the U.S. illegally, then that someone has violated the laws and thus has committed a crime. I am not discussing here the scale or severity of the crime (stealing an apple to feed your starving family is much less a serious crime than stealing millions from your company's pension fund), but it is a crime nonetheless.

As a legal immigrant, one who has spent a considerable amount of time (nearly 2 decades and I'm not yet a U.S. citizen), money and energy dealing with the U.S. immigration laws and one who has chosen immigration as her profession, I find it insulting that those entering the U.S. illegally, whether through the southern or northern border or as stow-aways in cargo, may obtain a path to a green card that is faster than for those who, simply because of geography, are following the labyrinthine procedures and paying ever higher fees to get the privilege to reside and/or work legally in the U.S.

Most certainly, those employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants and those who do not follow the law and verify employment eligibility are to be blamed.