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"Just or Unjust War" - What fundies are being fed about Iraq

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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 09:58 PM
Original message
"Just or Unjust War" - What fundies are being fed about Iraq
Edited on Mon Apr-10-06 10:21 PM by KitchenWitch
I will be giving exerpts of an article I came across in print. Unfortunately it is not available as a link, but this article made me ill, and should give any peace loving US citizen pause.

The article is entitled "Just or Unjust War" and was written by Dr. Mark T. Clark - a political science professor at California State Univesity in San Bernadino. This article was published in KKMS AM 980's Faith Talk magazine. KKMS is a Salem Communications affiliate.

In thinking about war, there are two equal but opposite errors that Christians can make. At the extremes, Christians can choose to be pacifists or warmongers.


He goes on to explain why both of those positions are in error.

In addition to the opinions of the pacifists and warmongers, there exists a third option. Historically, it has been called the "Just War." It has been culled from years of experience as Christians have been confronted with the need for thinking about specific problems. However, Christianity never specifies a universal approach. Unlike some faiths, Christianity is not a political religion. In these other faiths, you will not find anything like the idea of tendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's. Judaism and, particularly, Islam include political rule. But in the biblical tradition, we have a distinction between Church and State rather than the Church ruling like the State.


He then states that Christians have relied on "practical reason" to determine whether a war is just or not.

Then next excerpt attempts (reading between the lines) to assert that like the US' involvement in WWII, toppling the Iraqi regime is also just. And that good Christians should lay down their lives in service to their country.

During World War II, the United States fought Nazi Germany. The Nazi regime, as Augustine and Aquinas would say, was an unjust tyranny as it served the private interest of its masters in the Nazi Party. The Nazis unjustly sought the subjugation and slaughter of "lesser" races. The United States justly used force to fight and then topple the regime -- to cause "regime change" as we might say today. However, we did not condemn every German soldier and officer to the gallows at Nuremberg, for we distinguished between just and unjust behavior.


Believers have a duty to serve both God and their country wisely.


Further, since Christians value service highly, no more noble a service can be performed than serving one's country militarily, being prepared to lay down one's life for his fellow citizens, bringing "salt" and "light" to war itself.


Please euthanize me if I ever start to think and talk this way.
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. So where does that leave Bush...
...whom God is instructing directly?
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That is a very good question
I believe that God is not actually communicating directly with Bush, but with KKKarl Rove since it is Rove and the other dominionist that are pulling the strings.:sarcasm:
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ZombieNixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick
:kick:
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. how is the iraq war "just" and hitler's invasion of poland "unjust"?
shrub used the exact same logic hitler used. terrorists, preemptive war, self-defense, etc.

anyone ever tells me how the iraq war is 'just', i ask them to remmind me how the invasion of poland was unjust.

of course they can't do it. i just get "that was different", or "hitler was a monster", etc.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I know
This is the propaganda the fundies are feeding the flock.

Really makes me angry.
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Wow, your post just kicked a fact to the surface of my brain.
In addition to the "justifications" you cite for Hitler's invasion of Poland, didn't he stage a little 'atrocity' against ethnic Germans in Poland to provide the final justification for his invasion? Something about 'defending German interests.'

I wonder if there has been any recent atrocity that 'justifies' all the death and carnage of the past few years. Oh yes. That one.

Never mind.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Scary, isn't it!
:grr:
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Being a pacifist myself...
I would tend to disagree with Dr. Clark about that being in error. Not only are Quakers and the other Peace Churces pacifist in nature, many other denominations have strong pacifist movements woithin them. However, I am well aware of Just War, and why his attitude is apparently held by most Christians.

Part of the problem, going back to Augustine, is trying to put a particular war into the cubbyholes Just War provides us with. Here's a part of just one of many discussions of Just War relative to Iraq from the Lutheran viewpoint:

http://www.pubtheo.com/page.asp?pid=1202

<...>
"Noko: The ‘just war’ criteria were established as a framework for thinking through the problems of international relations, given the reality of sin and the perennial conflicts that plague the human community.

According to just-war theory, a decision to use violent force should be based on, among others, the principles of ‘just cause,’ ‘right intention,’ ‘legitimate authority,’ ‘last resort’ and ‘proportionality.’ According to Luther, only the defense of one’s own country could constitute ‘just cause’ for warfare, and wars of aggression or prevention were clearly excluded. According to the principle of ‘right intention,’ only the intention of restoring the peace and the prior order could justify a war. The goal of completely destroying an enemy, or a religious basis for war, would not constitute ‘right intention.’ ‘Legitimate authority’ requires the decision to apply military means to be taken by a duly constituted governmental authority (generally interpreted as including the United Nations in the modern international setting). War must be the ‘last resort,’ and can only be contemplated once all peaceful means of dealing with the conflict and for re-establishing the earlier conditions have been exhausted. And the military means and methods used, and the resulting human suffering and cost, must be ‘proportional’ to the objective.

These criteria seem especially relevant in adjudicating the ethical appropriateness of a pre-emptive war against Iraq - an offensive (rather than defensive) military action, which would be devastating to those directly affected, and likely to lead to further political instability in the region if not the world as a whole. Significantly, these criteria require those contemplating war to scrutinize carefully their own motives, and to be forthcoming about their own interests, rather than focusing primarily on the suspected motives of others.

It should also be emphasized in the current context that these criteria were designed to constrain the resort to war, rather than to provide a framework for the ethical justification of military actions.

In any event, it must be said that the just-war tradition has been increasingly questioned by advocates of peace. The continuing appropriateness and relevance of just-war theory in the age of weapons of mass destruction and of international terrorism is open to question. This issue should be reflected on by the churches, especially those such as the Lutheran churches that have integrated just-war theory into their theology.

The question that confronts us today is whether war, in and of itself, can ever be just or serve the interests of justice or God’s design. I confess that personally I do not believe so.

Even in the Old Testament, where many stories seem to describe situations in which military solutions have been imposed in the pursuit of God’s design, a closer examination shows that military action never provided a permanent solution. Behind these biblical stories is the message that military and political power, and the solutions they achieve, are not lasting; what is permanent is justice, love and reconciliation."

<...>
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Great post! Thanks!
:hi:
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. Bush's Fucking War Failed The "Just War"
this discussion came up at the start of Iraq

Just War doctrine is not as vague as this author states

Why are you so inflamed?

The fundies ARE NOT BEING FED ANYTHING ABOUT JUST WARS!

That is a very liberal doctrine compared with the fundies follow bush for anything.

Even Pope John Paul II said Iraq was not a just war.

Don't lump fundies in with those of us who are Christians who know that Iraq was not a just war.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I am sorry you read it wrong
I am not lumping fundies in with True Christians. I was just disseminating some propaganda I came across, regarding the fundies' use of propaganda to fuel the war.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. Principles Of Just War
"Just War theory is the attempt to distinguish between justifiable and unjustifiable uses of organized armed forces... Just War theories attempt to conceive of how the use of arms might be restrained, made more humane, and ultimately directed towards the aim of establishing lasting peace and justice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war#Christian_Just_War_Theory
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And for some further light reading...
while "just war" is not specifically defined, the Catholic Encyclopedia has the skinny on Catholic thought on war:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15546c.htm

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
14. Very interesting
I am vageuly familiar with Aquinas's just war position and this war doesnt came anywhere near it.
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