DUers supporting illegal immigrants are falling for the trap

[Elwood P Dowd]

The repukes love illegal immigrants. They also want more immigrants via the H1B visa program. It's all about supply and demand. Keep importing cheap laborers and pit them against US workers. Keep driving the wages and benefits down.

There are only about 140 million jobs available in the this country, and that hasn't changed much since Bushit was selected prez. However, the population has increased and millions of illegals have crossed the border into our country since 2001 ABWS.

With outsourcing and fake free trade deals shipping jobs out of the country, the future is bleak indeed. More American citizens will be in competition with immigrants for the slave-wage jobs that remain. The minimum wage will never increase. Before long, college grads will be happy with their $8.00 an hour Wal Mart jobs.

The repukes will continue their little immigration game to placate their base, but they will blame the dems for immigration reform failure. All the while, they will be laughing all the way to the bank, and certain DUers will continue to promote open borders and unlimited immigration.

Sometimes I believe that repuke operatives are on this board masquerading as democrats defending illegal immigration. Some posters remind me of a Limbaugh skit back in the early 90s that depicted liberals as hopelessly out of touch and totally lacking in common sense.

Lou Dobbs and Thom Hartman, one a paleocon and one a progressive, have both come to basically the same conclusion on this issue. It's time for Mexico to stop exporting their problems and their poverty, and it's time for the USA to start taking care of it's own citizens.

[LiberalUprising]

1. Agreed K&R

[AuntiBush]

206. Finally - Yes, Agree 100%

Last night's neocon professor (reportedly buds w/*) just loves his illegal immigrant yard-worker.

When he offered an early leave I was the first out the door. Yes, Dem's have been duped on this one BIG-TIME.

Its not about legal immigrants, its about illegal ones crossing an unprotected post-9/11 era border for over 5 years now making money under the table and businesses enjoying cheap labor, and taking more jobs from us. I honestly wonder why I remain in college because I know it means nothing anymore, future job-wise.

Duped. Is. Right. and to pit us against one another one more time. Tells one how highly they regard us.

[rudy23]

2. People aren't making the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants

and they're not thinking about the worker, born and raised in the US who makes between $5.15 and $10 an hour. These are the people who are hurt by cheap, illegal labor. People crying "xenophobia" just stifle the debate, and give ammo to the right.

[Andromeda]

60. Yep!

[Cobalt Violet]

69. There seems to be outright hositiity toward lower paid Americans.

If not outright hositliy then neglect. It's sickening.

People have said they support the illegals because they're "human". Since when are Americas own low paid workers not human?

[Mutley]

86. There is a very fine line to walk on this issue

between looking out for our own, and looking out for others who need our help. It is no so easy to come down cleanly on one side or the other.

This post is meant for the OP... sorry 'bout that.

[Joanne98]

143. But, but , who will take care of our GOLF COURSES?

[benburch]

3. I think we need open borders.

No more illegal immigrants because everybody is welcomed.

[Breeze54]

6. So, can they all just move

into your house, too, just because they need a home?
:shrug:
You are full of it or just plain naive'!

[NVMojo]

28. What Mexicans do you know that moved into people's houses like

that? Give me a break. The Mexicans I know are some of the quietest, private, hard working people. I've know more white girl leeches on welfare in this country then I've ever seen Mexicans do ...

Stop treating humans with dark skin like cockroaches. The elites did that to the Irish at one time. We never learn.

[Zookeeper]

It's a metaphor. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

64. It's a lie n/t

[Breeze54]

39. Who mentioned Mexicans?

I was responding to post # 3. I didn't mention Mexicans.
Perhaps you clicked the wrong reply button?

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GirlinContempt]

140. Racist much?

[Joanne98]

145. Raised on the border, lived in LA for 20 years....

What's your credentials?

[GirlinContempt]

150. My credentials for being a racist?

I don't need any, because I'm not.

[HEyHEY]

156. You're from Winnipeg, it's not like you couldn't have them if you wanted

[GirlinContempt]

159. I guess if I was an asshole, I could.

[Joanne98]

180. Good for you.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[High Plains]

164. Not worth replying to.

[Scout]

197. and yet, you did n/t

[Inland]

129. Of course not!

The generosity towards immigrants is limited to someone else's job.

[Joanne98]

137. That's a good idea.

[Roxy66]

8. Our infastructure just cant handle the influx......

Our schools are overloaded....not enough revenue to build more schools

I, as a Single Mom, cant get Health Care assistance because Oregons Health Plan has been virtually shut down due to the overwhelming number of applicants....and yes, immigrants from Mexico make up a HUGE number of those applicants.

Housing Costs (Renting) will continue to rise because there are more renters than housing...

it goes on and on. We just cant take on this many in such a short amount of time....

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. They can get taxpayer funded health care if they aren't citizens???

Funny, I thought that was a violation of FEDERAL policy.

Maybe Oregon seceded.

[Breeze54]

42. YES! They can get free healthcare!

http://www.bphc.org/howto/ins_mucp.asp?
Can immigrants receive free care or partial free care?
Yes. Any person, child or adult, regardless of immigrant status,
is eligible for full or partial free care. Non-Massachusetts
residents are eligible for free care for emergency and urgent care only.

[genie_weenie]

82. That's it! Sign me up to become an undocumented worker in the US!

I hate taxes and having to pay for my own healt care! No more government sending me jury duty notices, no more April 15th, no more nice fancy direct deposit just getting paid under the table in sweaty wads of money!

Undocumented status here I come! And all you dopes who remain "citizens" of America. Suckers!!!!!!!!!!

[Joanne98]

146. That's a good idea. Fuck the war machine too.

[genie_weenie]

153. That's what I was saying last year in Iraq!

Fuck these chickenhawks and their goddamn war.

[Iris]

161. Hope you enjoy it until someone breaks into your trailer,

knocks you out, steals your cash, and rapes your wife.

[genie_weenie]

184. OKAY... And tell me again why this can not happen

to a full blooded American?

Crimes like this happen to god-fearing, tax-paying, flag-waving Americans everyday...

You're just mad because I found the way to beat the system! I fucking Rule!!!!!

[Iris]

188. You'd be targeted b/c people would know 1. you have cash

in your home; 2. you won't go to the police because you're illegal.

[genie_weenie]

195. Again crimes happen to people

who have guards, security systems, lawyers and the protect and serve boys in blue. And I've seen vandalism and crime or military bases, gated communities

Is your contention that the status as illegal immigrant would make me more likely to be targeted for crime? Because if that is the case why are the illegals staying in the country, since according to you they (the illegals) must be being overwhelmed by wave after wave of rape, murder and theft???

[Iris]

196. It's not my contention. This has actually happened in my state.

A group of men went on a crime spree against Lation immigrants specifically because they KNEW there would be cash AND that the victims would be unlikely to report the crime.

And, further, I live in a community with Latino immigrants - I don't know if they are legal or not - and have heard similar stories and worse. So, yes, I'm saying some of these people put up with a lot to stay here, which tells me where they come from must be pretty bad.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

233. actually, the police don't care if you are illegal

If you are a victim of a crime, you can report it and not worry about being deported. The cops are told not to worry about papers. I haven't figured out what la migra is doing, cause I don't hear about illegals being busted very often here in Oregon. :shrug:

[Iris]

237. That makes sense. But do the illegals know the police don't care? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. From your link:

"Non-Massachusetts residents are eligible for free care for emergency and urgent care only."

So they wouldn't be clogging up the system as the other poster alleged. I am quite sure that FEDERAL dollars may not be spent giving health care of any kind, other than emergency care, to non-US citizens. No human being may be denied emergency care. However, illegal immigrants do not get Medicaid.

[Control-Z]

92. One of the news programs

over the weekend had a special and they stated, yes,illegal immigrants do get medicaid.

[Control-Z]

214. Needed to reply to myself

That came out sounding bad. I, like most Americans am concerned over the high cost of health care in America. I've felt the crunch - paying out close to $1000.00 a month for family coverage a few years ago. However, I believe everyone in America should have access to health care services and no one should ever be denied care when they need it.

I don't have an answer for our immigration problems. It seems to me we haven't put enough thought or work into a matter of such importance. Wouldn't our borders be secured by now if we had? Until it took the spotlight a few weeks ago I would guess that mostly only those who stood to profit or lose were all that concerned. I'm thinking along the lines of business owners who hire undocumented workers because they'll work for practically nothing (not to mention the great tax break they provide). They're no better than smugglers - profiting off of people's desperation.

IMO, it's going to take some time before we've worked out a fair and practical solution for dealing with immigration. In the meantime, providing medicaid to undocumented immigrants may be a drain on society - but denying it would be a drain on humanity.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

234. ....

"IMO, it's going to take some time before we've worked out a fair and practical solution for dealing with immigration. In the meantime, providing medicaid to undocumented immigrants may be a drain on society - but denying it would be a drain on humanity."

what are you, some kind of 'people lover' or something?

:applause:

[Breeze54]

93. From the Link....

Any person, child or adult, regardless of immigrant status,
is eligible for full or partial free care.

It's against state law to turn away a person in need of medical care.
They are getting FREE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RagingInMiami]

227. They are eligible for emergency and urgent care only

So are you. So is everybody in this country. Federal law requires that anybody who is on U.S. soil and in need of emegency healthcare will get emergency healthcare.

[IndyJones]

230. True, and we have to pay for that emergency care with

insurance or cash. It's not free.

[RagingInMiami]

236. We also have to pay 5 billions a month for the war in Iraq

Where is the national outrage there? Is it more "patriotic" to vent that anger towards the immigrants?

[Joanne98]

142. You bet they can.

[Critters2]

191. Federal law requires that hospitals MUST treat anyone who enters

an ER...without asking for documents, health insurance, anything. Hospitals are required to treat everyone to the point of "stability". I used to be a health care consumer advocate, and we routinely told people who could not afford health care to go to the ER, for everything from broken bones to toothaches. And they were always treated, regardless of citizenship status.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

235. The Hippocratic Oath

because it's just... the RIGHT thing to do

Hippocratic Oath -- Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.


Written in 1964 by Louis Lasagna, Academic Dean of the School of Medicine at Tufts University, and used in many medical schools today.



The Hippocratic Oath is one of the oldest binding documents in history. Written in antiquity, its principles are held sacred by doctors to this day: treat the sick to the best of one's ability, preserve patient privacy, teach the secrets of medicine to the next generation, and so on. "The Oath of Hippocrates," holds the American Medical Association's Code of Medical Ethics (1996 edition), "has remained in Western civilization as an expression of ideal conduct for the physician."

:)
there's that karma thing too...

[IndyJones]

229. You didn't know that? What rock have you been hiding under?

Sorry if that was harsh, but yes, they get free healthcare while Americans go without.

[rucky]

19. We should be marching for universal healthcare.

Not against immigration.

and yes, we can pay for it.

[Brigid]

48. Thank You!

And if we ever stop getting in to stupid wars, maybe we could pay for something besides more and more military hardware.

[Joanne98]

147. You can pay for it. I'm not going to.

[Iris]

163. wtf?

The poster was talking about universal healthcare for ALL citizens. If you think that is so awful, maybe your on the wrong discussion board.

[Joanne98]

141. Don't confuse them with facts. Mexicans would NEVER....

take welfare. the country DEPENDS on them. Haven't you heard?

[rodeodance]

199. they are already here.

[IndyJones]

228. Schools, roads, hospitals that a closing...you're so right.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. I agree Ben

[novalib]

80. I Agree With You

It's time to end the notion of "I've got mine" here in the United States.

It seems to me that the entire notion of NOT welcoming everyone is the same as saying to the world, "I've got mine, but the rest of you can suffer".

[Inland]

118. I think we need free money.

No more poor people because everyone has a million dollars.

[Marr]

121. Haha! Well put.

[Joanne98]

135. Where do you live, Maine?

[Egalitariat]

204. If we don't have borders, do we have a country?****

nm

[rucky]

4. And the MILLIONS of marchers?

Are they falling into the GOP "trap" as well?


ooooooh...scarrrry.

[Joanne98]

148. Who do you think GAVE THEM THE DAY OFF, Einstein?

[fob]

5. How about USA, Canada and Mexico form a North American Citizenship

agreement? You want to work here, fine present your Canadian or Mexican ID and the US employer can hire you once your government verifies with ours that you are who you say you are. That and the company hires you at your home country wage and pays the difference (US wage less Home country wage) to US government for domestic worker training/health insurance etc. So if construction workers get paid $20/hr in your area, and Company A hires a fellow North American, but not US citizen for $10/hr, then Company A ALSO pays $10/hr to US. No incentive for Company A, fellow NA still get's a job, can retain their dignity by not being "illegal", and the US worker will probably cost a little less with paperwork involved, and/or can get training/etc from funds.

Oh, and all 3 countries would have the same plan available to them.

[chrisfloyd]

16. This would create problems in a few areas.

Canadian hospitals would flooded with Americans who would move simply to solve a medical issue. How many thousands of American pensioners are taking bus trips over the border to buying cheaper Canadian meds? Take a job at Mcdonalds and get a heart transplant?

[fob]

209. I suppose there would be a certain amount of people that would

accept Canadian wages if they came with national healthcare. The NA Union agreement should include national healthcare along the lines Canadians receive. And before you say, then that would cost even more to cover those from Mexico who come to US, you'll have to recall we already pay enough to receive national healthcare for all of us AND the 12 million "illegals", we just don't GET IT! So you shouldn't have to "take a job at McDonald's" to get a fucking heart transplant, don't you think?

[Joanne98]

149. Americans can't buy property in Mexico. Start with that.

[High Plains]

167. Bullshit.

I get the feeling everything you know is wrong.

[fob]

211. Thanks for the backstop, HP!

nt

[fob]

210. That's at least the third time I've seen that. Someone else posted

some supposed Mexican law about that. You gonna just hurl around crap like that and not provide proof? And besides, what does that hae to do with my proposal? Are you saying that since Mexico has laws and the US has laws and Canada has laws that we can't form a fucking North American Union type situation with mutual agreements for work/healthcare/environmental issues that raises all three countries awareness?

If so I have two questions for you;
Have you ever heard of the European Union?
and
Why do you hate America?

[saracat]

7. Exactly what I have been saying.

The immigration promoters are being"used'. Their humanity is being used against them. Why doesn't anybody find it odd that the MSM couldn't spare anytime to cover the anti war marches but could actively promote this March, give directions and encourage attendance. Hmmm.Meanwhile more soldiers died in Iraq and New Orleans still isn't being rebuilt, and no one(GOP) is discussing the minimum wage!

[Elwood P Dowd]

9. The minimum wage is now worth about $3.00 an hour

when you compare it to 1997 - the last year it was increased.

[Tom Joad]

10. Viva Amnistia! No one is illegal.

The effort to rid this nation of so-called illegals is based on ignorance... and worse.

By being part of society and the economy, immigrants also create jobs.
The people who are pushing for criminalization are the very same people who oppose raising the minimum wage.

It is the left that is calling for amnesty, it is the left that is calling for "living wage", it is the left that is calling for Fair Trade, and went out on the streets to oppose Nafta and WTO and other such trade agreements that create poverty.

To call for criminalization is to attack our allies who can build a better world for all.

[Elwood P Dowd]

14. No!

Continued support for illegal, or even legal, immigration is ignorance under the current conditions. Our economy cannot create enough decent paying jobs to support our own citizens, much less 500,000 illegal immigrants each year. When the housing bubble bursts, we're going to have one massive problem on our hands.

[chrisfloyd]

26. Whose going

Whose going to pick your fruit? Wash your toilets? Scrub your floors.

Economics 101 - Canada and Australia are proof that high immigration is great for the economy.

The Americas were built on immigrants seeking a better life.

All this fear mongering reminds me of the Mexican welfare mother tale. I am quite surprised to see it here. Mind you - how many blue collar union jobs have been wiped out?

More and more people are going to be telecommuting in the future anyway. And in that case, I can think of many other places to live in the world.

[Elwood P Dowd]

33. Who do you think performed those jobs a few years ago?

Hell, I've picked fruits, dug ditches, nailed down decking and installed roofing, and many other such jobs when I was working my way through college in the 60s. I didn't see a single legal or illegal immigrant on the job site. Do you see any college-age kids doing that now? Do you see any young African American males doing that now? Want to know why so many African American males 18-30 are unemployed or in prison? I will tell you why; They have been totally locked out of entry-level jobs, that's why. The jobs that allowed poor people like me to work their way through college or allow young black males a chance to work their way up to a middle class job have been given to immigrants who will work for less pay and no benefits. The corps get rich, poor US citizens get screwed, and you support it. Say hello to your hero Rush.

[chrisfloyd]

37. You need to watch this

http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/


LOOK OUT THE MEXICANS ARE COMING!

LOOK OUT THE CHINESE ARE COMING!

LOOK OUT THE IRISH ARE COMING!

The just can waltz in and undermine the heritage of the founding fathers... (You mean the Natives right?)



http://www.sfgate.com/gate/graphics/2006/04/05/phobia.swf

[Zookeeper]

38. I knew plenty of college students...

back in the day, who took time off from school to work for a summer, or even a year, in an auto plant. That was how they were able to be the first in their family to get a college degree.

The story of Detroit is the story of poor people (black and white) moving north for a Union job that would pull them and their families out of poverty and give their children a chance to move up the ladder. Those jobs are gone.

People who are deeply moved by the plight of poor illegal immigrants who just want to work, should visit Detroit sometime and look at the economic and social devastation. That pain is just as real. And it's urgent for residents of Detroit. They don't have a country to go back to and don't have time to wait until we achieve the lofty goal of reforming our corporations and government.

It would help if we didn't have an never-ending glut of illegal migrants willing to work for much less than a livable wage.

[Strelnikov_]

76. Oh, Zookeeper, You're Just Part Of That Reality Based Community

Didn't you know that the new DU groupthink is that unlimited immigration leads to middle class wages and fair working standards for all. The Iron Law Of Wages, supply and demand, no longer apply, because we are talking about something that makes our hearts glad.

[Zookeeper]

123. Yes, loindelrio, I try to stay in touch with reality...

even if it makes me sound like a b***h.

The good news here, is that I think it is a very vocal minority that is playing the "Let's post a flamebait thread then gang up on anyone who disagrees with us" game.

[Joanne98]

160. I've planted trees and picked strawberries. But SHHHHHHHH.

Don't tell anybody, I'm supposed to be LAZY!

[AntiFascist]

212. The bottom line on the immigration issue.....

as far as I see it, is that we are dangerously close to adopting a form of second class citizenry. This seems to be the primary thing being protested, that a class of people, who all happen to be Latino, are not being treated on the same level as the rest of "legal" humanity which reside within our borders. This is innately anti-American.

If guest workers are to be treated as temporary guests, then they should not have any kind of permanent status. If we appreciate the efforts of those "illegals" who choose to live in the United States permanantly and, perhaps, raise families here, then these people should be made real citizens. Enforce the borders, make those whose continuing efforts add to our economy into real citizens, and allow more immigration where it will not be an undue burden to our economy.

The Republicans would like nothing more than to have a permanent second class of citizenry performing all the jobs that they don't want. This plantation mindset is running rampant. What comes next when the super-wealthy and those who are closely tied to the corporate world begin to feel that they should have greater impact on what should otherwise be democratic processes? Is it already too late?

[ColdWarVet]

62. I'm from maine...

And I can remember school going into recess in the late fall of the year so the school kids (high school) could work in the fields picking potatoes. I did it and it was damn hard work. Than again I worked in the woods also, and I have done mine and 2 or 3 people's shar in the Army. My point? Don't make it look like I or we can't do the hard work.

[LostinVA]

67. You know whose been doing this for DECADES? Migrant workers

Mainly Hispanic. This is nothing new. "Real" Americans haven't been the ones to primarily work in our fields for many, many decades. Well before most of our grandparents were born. Who have been our maids and custodians? Not "Real" white Americans, that's for sure. Irish immigrants. Blacks. Hispanics. That's the way it's been for a long, long time.

People don't want to do back-breaking, low-paying work when they can make a little more and work a little cleaner (fast food, retail, etc.). These jobs always go to "the lowest of the low." If McCain wanted to pay $50 an hour to pick lettuce, then something different would happen -- we would fight for the damn jobs.

So, no one has ever said "Real" Americans can't do the job. But no one is going to do back breaking work for little pay when they don't have to. These type of jobs ALWAYS "trickle down" to the newest and most vulnerable members of our society... the immigrants. Period.

This is nothing but a wedge issue, a trial balloon.

[ColdWarVet]

72. Fine and dandy...

but can we boil that down to LEGAL immigrants?

Illegal is illegal, plain and simple. If I get flammed for this, so be it, but the rule of law means something to me. I just have a hard time finding sympathy for someone who's first conscience decision in this country was to break the law.

"No one is going to do back breaking work if they don't have to." The alternative being what? Welfare? I would walk the roadside picking up empties for return before I would take welfare. Apathy seems to be a problem, maby we should spend a few million on work ethics and social responsibilities..............

Either way, it doesn't make it right.

[LostinVA]

75. American workers are not apathetic

No one will do back breaking work unless they have to -- who mentioned welfare??? Not me -- I mentioned service-industry jobs. Nice straw man. The US worker doesn't need lessons on ethics and responsibility -- nice RW memes, there. OMG.

And, goody for you, refusing to take welfare. The HUGE majority of people need that money to help themselves and their families, and are on it less than three years.

Seriously: whatever. You are like GLASS... and are now on ignore. I don't have time for six-posters quoting suspect memes.

[ColdWarVet]

130. Again, fine and dandy.

You have your opinion, and are entitled to it.

Suspect? Is that how you adress a differing opinion than yours, to put them on ignore? Not trying to change your mind, just voicing MY opinion.

Yes, I mentioned welfare. The country is just as full of "I'd make more on welfare than in a low paying job" as it is full of hard working individuals who are willing to work for minimum... or less! I've seen them, I've met them, and I have talked to them. Things may be great in that utopia you live in, but not here.

Whatever friend. Keep on that one track mind.

[Bridget Burke]

87. So show up at the fields this summer.

Your Union should demand fair wages for all. Protest! Demonstrate!

"Rule of law"--where have we heard that before? All countries have laws. Tyrannies have even more laws.

[LostinVA]

98. I know... I am so tired of this "rule of law" meme

[Joanne98]

175. I'm so sick of this.

[mainegreen]

110. welcome to DU!

[Critters2]

193. Why do't you wash your own damn toilets

You do not have a RIGHT to cheap lettuce!!

[Zookeeper]

31. Not to mention...

where is the water coming from to meet the needs of a half-million (or more) new residents every year? Most of these people will settle in the more arid parts of the country.

This is 2006, not 1806. America isn't the land of limitless natural resources now. We need to plan and "green-up" our act before we try to absorb millions and millions more people.

[HEyHEY]

41. Yeah, like native Americans did when all us Honkies showed up!

Don't ever forget who the first illegals were.

[VirtualChicano]

25. Yes

I agree

[OzarkDem]

79. Figure out a way to pay for it

Right now we don't have the funds to handle something this massive and expensive.

[High Plains]

171. Cut the Pentagon budget in half. Undo the Bush tax cuts. Voila!

[Joanne98]

151. BLAH, BLAH , BLAH!!!!!!!!!!

This has been a message from the US Chamber of Commerce.

[Critters2]

192. I'll bet you've got a good paying job....

the kind not likely to go to an illegal immigrant any time soon.

[Zorra]

13. Subcomandante Marcos on Globalization and migration:

The Seven Loose Pieces of the Global Jigsaw Puzzle
(Neoliberalism as a puzzle: the useless global unity which fragments and destroys nations)
snip----
THE THIRD PIECE MIGRATION, THE ERRANT NIGHTMARE

"From the American Rio Grande to the "European" Schengen space, a double contradictory tendency is confirmed. On one side the borders are closed officially to the migration of labor, on the other side entire branches of the economy oscillate between instability and flexibility, which are the most secure means of attracting a foreign labor force" (Alain Morice, Op. Cit.).

With different names, under a judicial differentiation, sharing an equality of misery, the migrants or refugees or displaced of all the world are "foreigners" who are tolerated or rejected. The nightmare of migration, whatever its causes, continues to roll and grow over the planet's surface. The number of people who are accounted for in the statistics of the UN High Commission on Refugees has grown disproportionately from some 2 million in 1975 to 27 million in 1995.

With national borders destroyed (for merchandise) the globalized market organizes the global economy: research and design of goods and services, as well as their circulation and consumption are thought of in intercontinental terms. For each part of the capitalist process the "new world order" organizes the flow of the labor force, specialized or not, up to where it is necessary. Far from subjecting itself to the "free flow" so clucked-over by neoliberalism, the employment markets are each day determined more by migratory flows. Where skilled workers are concerned, whose numbers are not significance in the context of global migration, the "crossing of brains" represents a great deal in terms of economic power and knowledge. Nevertheless, whether skilled labor, or unskilled labor, the migratory politics of neoliberalism is oriented more towards destabilizing the global labor market than towards stopping immigration.

The Fourth World War, with its process of destruction/depopulation and reconstruction/reorganization provokes the displacement of millions of people. Their destiny is to continue to wander, with the nightmare at their side, and to offer to employed workers in different nations a threat to their employment stability, an enemy to hide the image of the boss, and a pretext for giving meaning to the racist nonsense promoted by neoliberalism.

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/ezln/1997/jigsaw.html

[Tom Joad]

23. Fight neoliberalism. Restrict capital, not labor.

[VirtualChicano]

27. Again

I agree COMPLETELY

[Joanne98]

154. Neo-Liberalism is a CURSE and it deserves it's own thread.

[Lexingtonian]

15. No, that's sheer idiocy

The repukes love illegal immigrants. They also want more immigrants via the H1B visa program. It's all about supply and demand. Keep importing cheap laborers and pit them against US workers. Keep driving the wages and benefits down.

Republicans are the one demographic in which a majority supports complete/mass expulsion.

There are only about 140 million jobs available in the this country, and that hasn't changed much since Bushit was selected prez. However, the population has increased and millions of illegals have crossed the border into our country since 2001 ABWS.

Increasing population means more jobs. Zillions of electrons have crossed our phone lines, but we don't have massive overloads of electrons on one end because....they go back, too! They come, and go, and come, and go back....

With outsourcing and fake free trade deals shipping jobs out of the country, the future is bleak indeed. More American citizens will be in competition with immigrants for the slave-wage jobs that remain. The minimum wage will never increase. Before long, college grads will be happy with their $8.00 an hour Wal Mart jobs.

I went into the job market in 1992, when there were no jobs. In 1998 employers couldn't find enough qualified workers to fill the jobs they had.
You really aren't cluing in to what is actually going on in the U.S. economy- the rich and the corporations are investing all their profits overseas, that's the real reason for U.S. job scarcity.

The repukes will continue their little immigration game to placate their base, but they will blame the dems for immigration reform failure. All the while, they will be laughing all the way to the bank, and certain DUers will continue to promote open borders and unlimited immigration.

You're wrong and you're wrong. Check the pollings about who's winning and who's losing.

Sometimes I believe that repuke operatives are on this board masquerading as democrats defending illegal immigration. Some posters remind me of a Limbaugh skit back in the early 90s that depicted liberals as hopelessly out of touch and totally lacking in common sense.

I know Republican operatives are here trying to gin up the stupider sorts of Democrats to blaming their problems on illegals, rather than the rich and the corporations.

Lou Dobbs and Thom Hartman, one a paleocon and one a progressive, have both come to basically the same conclusion on this issue. It's time for Mexico to stop exporting their problems and their poverty, and it's time for the USA to start taking care of it's own citizens.

I'm supposed to take these idiots as authority. :rofl:

You're really buying into the Right wing bullshit wholesale, then trying to dispense it out to us. Sorry.

[Elwood P Dowd]

20. Sorry, but our are wrong on all counts

I know several businessmen who employ immigrants, and they love their little arrangement and contribute mega-bucks to the repukes. These people
are paying immigrants lower wages than they paid US workers ten years ago, plus they offer zero benefits.

Increased population DOES NOT mean more jobs when job creation is stagnant. Where in hell did you get that? Private sector jobs are shrinking, not growing, except for the health care industry.

[Lexingtonian]

30. No, you're proving my points- keep on going!

I know several businessmen who employ immigrants, and they love their little arrangement and contribute mega-bucks to the repukes. These people are paying immigrants lower wages than they paid US workers ten years ago, plus they offer zero benefits.

Which contradicts me because...no, it doesn't. Employers are a very small proportion of Republican voters. Most Republican voters are middle class and working class people, of course. White and 'Christian', too! And full of resentments and grudges, easy to dupe into blaming people they don't like anyway for the cunning sins of their own kind.

Increased population DOES NOT mean more jobs when job creation is stagnant. Where in hell did you get that?

Stagnant does not mean zero. The number of people formally having employment has in fact increased under Bush.

Private sector jobs are shrinking, not growing, except for the health care industry.

"Service" jobs are up- Walmart, McDonald's, pizza delivery. All that stuff where an increase in customers due to population growth means an increase in people needed to deal with them, generally because manual labor and a basic level of immediate communication is involved.

You evade addressing the wealth migration aspect.

[Elwood P Dowd]

36. You are a laugh a minute

Bragging about zero job growth, and the jobs that are created pay nothing.

You have to create 2 million jobs a year just to keep up with population growth. There have only been 5 million jobs created since Bush took office 5 years ago. Do I need to say more? Can you add and subtract?

[Zookeeper]

35. The Rethugs I know...

are supporting amnesty and an open border with Mexico. They are pro-business and anti-union. They think other Americans are lazy for not being willing to work for wages they, personally, would be insulted by. They are religious, anti-choice and like Mexicans because they have good "family values."

They are also disgusted by our LEGAL Hmong, Somali and Ethiopian immigrants. I can't even bring myself to ask why.

So, advocates for illegal immigrants are also keeping some questionable company.

[Finder]

96. "Freepers" are against amnesty and guest worker programs...

and basically agree with the OP.

[LostinVA]

99. Agreed -- I don't know one Repub who agrees with the amnesty angle

[lastliberalintexas]

102. I think by "republicans" s/he meant the (republican) Elite

Not necessarily the rank and file, mind you. But they'll fall back into line and forget all this immigration crap as soon as the abortion/gay marriage/gun issue is raised again.

[LostinVA]

103. Ah -- okay.... and yeah, something exciting will happen with the other

bugaboos.....

[Joanne98]

157. SO! Maybe they're right about something for a change.

[Iris]

166. that's funny b/c the guest worker program is a REPUBLICAN idea.

[Joanne98]

170. It's always a Republican idea.

[Iris]

174. so, what's your point?

Why are you pissing all over people here who are just trying to act like human beings when the problems come from Republican policies. Why don't you go over to Free Republic and bitch at them for voting these bastards into office.

[Joanne98]

183. You human being me not. Is that what your saying?

I've been on this forum since 2002! The freepers aren't smart enough to
understand globalization. But I expect better from DU!

[Iris]

187. I have no problem with globalization.

But then again, I'm not xenophobic.

[Joanne98]

178. Faith Based Economics. Jesus muliplied the fish and loafs....

[leftstreet]

17. Who will protect undocumented workers from the millions more

waiting to come here and compete for THEIR jobs?

Will La Raza, the Catholic church, and latino radio/television mobilize the amnestied workers back out into the streets for immigration reform that protects THEIR jobs?

Will Bill Gates go BACK to DC and ask for a cap on H1B visas so that his newly hired cheap techie workers won't have to compete for THEIR jobs?

I didn't think so.
:eyes:

When will progressive Dems start asking themselves WHY employers are willing to give these exploited workers time off to take to the streets?

The Corporation is winning.

[lastliberalintexas]

106. Yep, the Corporation is winning

And as always, it's coming at the expense of labor. Other workers aren't the "enemy", Corporate America is.

[DLnyc]

18. The immigration issue is complex and stirs heated debate.

This works very well for Repubs this November; they will need a series of emotionally charged debates to distract from their failure to do ONE DAMN THING to address the serious issues that face the world today, as well as their success at doing COUNTLESS THINGS to destroy the planet, rape the economy and spread death and chaos around the globe.

While the issue of (legal and illegal) immigration is a very real and important issue, it is extremely complex--I find it hard to believe that repubs have studied the issue carefully and have come up with something that merits careful analysis; hard to believe, since it would be the first time in the last 5 years that they had a proposal that wasn't primarily designed to:
1) Steal more money for their friends
2) Increase their power
3) Divide the opposition

Option 3) seems like the best choice in this case, especially considering the friendly reception by the media and the very real effect the issue is having here: division.

It is great to hear these complex and important issues debated here. But I think it is foolhardy to think that there is any desire on the part of the repub half of Congress to actually implement anything constructive; it seems more likely that the point is to stir up passions and distract from issues like global warming and nuclear war and the destruction of the democratic process, which are perhaps more urgent, to my mind.

Just my opinion, though.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

50. I think you're right on the money with this.

At bottom, this media event we're witnessing is a staged Republican distraction. The pukes love the marches! Why else would Drudge have had that as his main headline all freakin' day long? I think it's because people who are talking about immigration generally aren't talking about Plamegate, Iran, etc.

[Old and In the Way]

203. I totally agree.

Where's the $800BB that Republicans have stolen from the Treasury? What have they done to stimulate jobs here....like invest in a post peak-oil energy infrastructure for the 21st century? Why do we need to spend $400BB/year on a war machine while we cannot insure basic healthcare and education for all of our citizens? Where's the great economy promised by the massive taxcuts to the top 5%? It's happening...in China.

The Republicans must love this stuff.....they have ripped us off blind, but it looks like they'll make the poorest segment of the country's population(about 3%) the scapegoats while creating the perfect wedge issue for the 2006 mid-terms. Probably voting Democrat types, too.

Lets build a 50 foot wall around the entire USA, top it off with electrified razor wire. Then we'll have secure borders.

[DLnyc]

208. Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if the idea is to keep others out or

us in. Crazy stuff.

The sad thing is, their 'wedge issues' usually represent serious problems that need intelligent and caring solutions. But by polarizing people over bogus proposals and emotional hype, they not only divide the opposition, but also make real solutions more difficult or impossible.

[DLnyc]

21. Sorry, duplicate. n/t

[Canuckistanian]

22. Bastids!!! n/t

[linazelle]

24. "...I believe that repuke operatives are on this board masquerading .."

Yep. Lots of distractors here promoting the distractions.

It is VERY frustrating and I find myself tuning out altogether. It's not just immigration that is a distraction, it's McKinney, Schiavo...and many other issuers where, when you mention that people need to stay focused, it's more than likely the distractors who attack with they can do more than one thing at a time.

I distinctly remember that the board was totally taken over by schiavo threads at the expense of neglecting other fiascos from BushCo. Now, we have Bush being implicated in a far reaching scandal and all we see is immigration news.

While I applaud the show of force by the Hispanic population--I am getting tired of the threads shouting that a half million people marched in so-and-so city today.

Anybody with half a brain who watches the news which is giving this widespread coverage should be able to see that this is a manipulation--especially when you compare these marches to anti-war and anti-Bush rallies worldwide that have generated as many if not more of the same sized crowds. You don't see coverage of those war protestors--but the immigrant protests are everywhere. Does the media get to decide which protests are "good"? I guess so if you look at how people are being duped and reacting. No riot police are being shown in these protest, just throngs and masses of people. During war protests, the robocops are shown everywhere. It's disgusting really.

[EFerrari]

29. How stupid do you have t o be to confuse policy with people?

Mr, Dowd, I hope your rabbit returns.

[Elwood P Dowd]

43. How stupid do you have to be

to fall for the trap? This was all planned years ago. If we can find a way to stop the illegal immigration and repeal the fake free trade deals, then the plan fails. Otherwise, the US middle class is doomed.

Edit: Harvey is sleeping. He is mad at me because I wouldn't buy him a new Apple laptop. Burp.

[HEyHEY]

45. Speaking of fake free trade, give us our 5 billion dollars back

[kster]

32. I don't think the DUERS

are falling for anything, those marches are not getting the traction that the Republicans wanted from them, it just isn't working for them, nothing is going to work for them anymore. They can vote themselves into power (with their machines) over and over again but unless they have the attention of the American people the election theft machines will do them NO GOOD.

God, Gays and Guns and now immigration, it just isn't going to work for them.

[Swamp Rat]

34. The planet does not belong to us

[HEyHEY]

40. So, instead of allowing them to pit you against each other

Why don't you try to bring them into the fold?

Oh yeah, protectionism and bigotry.

I forgot, US liberals don't do anything but protect "what's theirs" now. Never mind standing up for any causes, "I'm in the Union now and make a good wage, God bless america!"

[David__77]

44. But it's imperialism that drives workers here.

It's the US economic and political policies that are destroying the developing countries, in large part. I cannot agree that we have a right to criminalize those who come here in response to seek relief.

[HEyHEY]

46. Great point

[eridani]

47. If we got rid of NAFTA--

--it would be one hell of a lot easier for Mexico to take care of its own citizens.

[Elwood P Dowd]

53. NAFTA has cost Mexico millions of jobs

Their agricultural economy was totally wrecked by NAFTA. Most US manufacturers that moved there paid wages in the $1.00 an hour range. It was all planned by H.W. Bush, Carla Hills, Salinas, and Wall Street investment bankers. I will never forgive Bill Clinton for jumping in bed with these criminals and forcing the implementing legislation through congress.

[Andromeda]

59. NAFTA was a bad move...

I don't think Bill Clinton realized how it would affect our country. He thought it would open jobs for Americans, not the other way around.

Clinton had no choice but to work with a Repuke congress on NAFTA, without his input a worse version of the the bill would have passed anyway. He couldn't get the worker protections that he wanted in the bill and he believed that it could be amended later on to include them.

[theboss]

88. NAFTA was passed in 1993 when Dems still controlled Congress

Clinton got the bill passed by getting most of the Republican minority on board while keeping enough Dems on his side to get a majority of the votes.

[Greyhound]

185. Sorry but that's just wrong, he along with everyone else, knew

exactly what would happen and went along because it is what their campaign contributors wanted. He just figured that the propaganda would muddy the waters long enough for him to get out of office and put the blame on the next guy (would have been Gore without Diebold), ever the consummate politician, he just didn't give a fuck.

[genieroze]

127. This is why I didn't vote for Clinton the second time. NAFTA!!!!!

[Joanne98]

162. That's something we all agree on. Fucking NAFTA!

[oasis]

49. AFL-CIO president ,John Sweeney addressed the DC protesters today

along with othe labor leaders. Perhaps they have a different take on the issue. :shrug:

[countryjake]

52. You can't point that out to right-wingers...

I tried that a long time ago, when that Dobbs-boob was praising the Minute Men last year. They'll just say that the Unions are so corrupt and hard-up for membership that they're willing to "import dues" to save their asses. These people hate unions as much as they hate immigrants.

[Joanne98]

165. Yeah it's called, SELL OUT! The Union leaders sold out..

a long time ago. I hope they suffocate in their piles of money.

[countryjake]

177. You prove my point very well!

[applegrove]

51. The part where 2014 comes, boomers retire and workers are needed.

If it is guest workers they keep the wages down and the middle and poor fight inflation (like they are doing now.. alone). If 10 Million become citizens, then it becomes a workers market.

I'm just saying.. those workers will be needed - guest worker issues is just about how you pay em.

[Elwood P Dowd]

54. The poor are only fighting inflation for the rich

Can't you see? (no Allman Bros pun intended). Real inflation is killing the middle class and working poor. The Bushit government is playing games with the CPI. The rich are making out like bandits. They pay no FICA taxes over 90K in income. They are receiving huge tax breaks for Bushit. They can hire Mexican workers for peanuts. It's the Bushit's New World Order.

We have no choice. Illegal immigration has to be stopped, NAFTA has to be repealed, and the corporate democrats and repukes have to be thrown out of office.

There are simply not enough jobs and not enough resources in the USA to allow this madness to continue. It's as simple as that. Forget emotions and forget all the feel-good crap for a moment. What happens when the United States of America officially becomes the Corporate States Of America?

[Joanne98]

168. I'd rather die early.

[countryjake]

55. It makes me ashamed to log into this board...

and continually see things written that relegate living, breathing, hard-working people to terms such as "problems and poverty". Did you ever stop to think that these are humans you label as such "exports"? Have you ever considered that maybe some people reading here might actually know, love, and respect some of these people you deem so worrisome, these "problems" who singlehandedly will destroy this most perfect economy you hold so dear?

I support undocumented workers because I care and worry about my friends' safety in this soon-to-become fascist fucked-up profit-driven country. I've worked a long long time just trying to make ends meet and have barely ever owned a pot to piss in, but by god I would share that pot with anyone who gets down and works hard beside me.

I've worked in trades that saw competition move in and try to undercut wages and conditions. Well duh, you take them aside and say, "Hey, if we do this, this, and this, that bossman will have to make us ALL happy!" It is called organizing and is the only way any worker in this country has ever gotten a raise or a lower quota or a safer job!

You have fallen into the vat of fairy dust that makes you think that your "middle class" will survive once this economic system moves into its final stages!

[Bluebear]

57. Indeed.

This country and our criminal code has never EVER called PEOPLE illegal, just actions.

[Elwood P Dowd]

58. The trap captures another one

Bush says, "Like taking candy from a baby."

Fox says, "Better than taking candy from a baby. We're taking it from your opposition."

[countryjake]

126. No, like taking bread from the bourgeoisie.

"Bread! Bread! Bread!"

"Mother Brulé then planted the whole lump on the end of her stick, and holding it in the air, bore it about like a banner, rushing along the road, followed, helter-skelter, by the yelling troop of women."

Emile Zola "Germinal"



I helped register three people as voters yesterday, citizens who were parading thru our streets, mad as hell that the Republicans have the gall to try and pass as law a resolution that would declare these folks criminals. Shall I next direct them here, to your posted topic, and let them see just what you espousers of "democratic principles" have to say about their status in America?

There's a good reason why working class people in our country see fit to refrain from voting...we may as well wish in one hand and shit in the other, than to expect any policy be enacted by our politicos that actually does us any good.

[LostinVA]

68. Wonderful post, Jake -- and I agree -- organize

Organizing and stick it to the Man... SOLIDARITY. Strength in numbers, not divisiveness. There si plenty for everyone... IF the bosses play fair. They won't, so we have to make them.

[Andromeda]

56. k&r

[rman]

61. Supporting "illegal immigrants" versus supporting "illegal immigration"

I don't think many people are in fact supporting "illegal immigration".

One can support as a matter of principal the people who are "illegal immigrants", not because they are illegal but because they are exploited workers, just like many of us. At the same time one can oppose the policies that facilitate the exploitation of workers (part of which is illegal immigration) and the institutions that promote those policies. Changing those policies will do more then opposing "illegal immigrants" will do to solve immigration related problems.

[NNN0LHI]

63. Lou Dobbs is a racist motherfucker and a self professed Republican

He is your hero and you are accusing others of being repuke operatives?

I think some folks may be projecting around here.

Don

[Joanne98]

169. Oh Pleezeeeeeeee

[Horse with no Name]

186. Can I admit something Don?

You are my hero.:)

[Bridget Burke]

65. Yes, there are lots of right wing operatives...

Hoping we can blame all the problems of the country on the "illegals."

Bush continues to bleed out tax dollars into illegal wars & crooked deals that waste money. And to let his rich & corporate cronies avoid paying their share of taxes.

Health care, education, emergency relief, good jobs? Just not affordable--if you support the chimp. The country is not crippled by too many workers. It is crippled by Republican policies.

We need to grow by immigration. The problems of documentation need to be faced--but too many in the "anti-" crowd opposes ALL immigration.

Not to mention the rabid xenophobia that appears when their masks slip.

[Joanne98]

172. You must be from the "University of Chicago".........

Say HI to Milton Freeman for me. lol

[Bridget Burke]

220. Sorry--I fail to feel your distaste for the University of Chicago

And this Milton Freeman is a threat to----?

[Cobalt Violet]

66. We need to increase illegal immigration of PROFFESSIONALS.

Doctors, Lawyers, Dentists, Teachers, and many other white collar jobs. If it's good enough for blue collar workers, it's good enough for them too.

We need to drive down their wages to keep those fields affordable to the ever gowning,
underpaid, under class.

[Celebration]

70. Totally staged

Anyone with a brain can see that these are staged demonstrations orchestrated by Republican operatives using the illegal immigrants to *try* to control public opinion. This isn't about cheap jobs--it is about the agenda of one world government. The globalists don't care a thing about nationalism or borders or freedoms in the USA and want corporate control over everything. Our "free trade" laws are designed to bypass each country's laws. When that comes to pass, what happens to nations? Those who want open borders, free trade, yada yada, are really calling for the new feudalism--corporate control above and beyond the law of any nation.

I'm not sure why all can't see this. It seems perfectly clear to me.

By the way, as soon as our debt collapses (also planned) *we* will be the boat people.

[Cobalt Violet]

71. Ahhhhh... Perhaps that why Tyson plants closed yesterday.

They said they wanted to accommodate their workers.

[lastliberalintexas]

107. The chicken farms are some of the worst employers around

I feel for anyone who has to work at Tyson, Pilgrim, Sanderson etc. And unfortunately the main reason that they can force their employers to work in such deplorable conditions is that many are illegal and afraid of deportation or other reprisal if they rock the boat. Bo Pilgrim is an evil little fucker (I'm sure the others are too, I just don't don't know as much about them). And he's also a huge republican supporter.

[High Plains]

181. Tyson closed the plants because the workers were marching

Not your corporate plot, but responding to massive absences. Not that I'm any friend of Tyson, but I'm getting rather tired of this "corporate distraction/corporate plot" bullshit. There is a huge mass movement being built, and half of DU is on the sidelines sniping.


http://www.columbustelegram.com/articles/2006/04/11/news/news1.txt

Hispanics make absence felt

By ADRIAN SANCHEZ/Telegram Staff Writer

COLUMBUS - Several hundred people gathered at Frankfort Square Monday in support of immigration reform. The gathering resulted in hundreds of absences from area schools and businesses.

The demonstration was part of “Un Dia Sin Latinos,” an effort to demonstrate what life would be like without the immigrant and Hispanic community. White ribbons marked the doors of Hispanic owned businesses and empty desks were scattered throughout many classrooms.

Porfirio Centero of Columbus, a worker for the Tyson Fresh Meats Pork Plant in Madison, said the Tyson plant had planned to close because of the high number of absences. “They closed the plant because a lot of people walked out,” Centero said.

If “‘people don't work, we can't produce,'” he said, quoting a supervisor.

[High Plains]

176. Do you have the least bit of evidence for that? I didn't think so.

The demonstrations were organized by labor unions, churches, and Latino media.

I went to the one in Seattle. They expected 10,000 people; they got 35,000.

I didn't see any Republican operatives.

[Bridget Burke]

85. You tried this in another thread.

Professionals can afford immigration lawyers. And, once they are here, they do NOT settle for low wages.

[Cobalt Violet]

190. .

[Joanne98]

173. What about Congress?

[ecstatic]

73. Modern day slavery

I'm shocked and disgusted that so many DUers would excuse this, just for the promise of more votes (which will not happen by the way).

[Ganja Ninja]

74. I'm not supporting illegal immigration.

I'm supporting legalization of the illegals. I support paying them a decent wage the same as you would any American and putting them on the fast track to citizenship.

We need these people so we can include them in our tax base.

Many of them if they've been here for any length of time have had children who were born here and are citizens by birthright. You can't split up these families. They should be legalized immediately and given citizenship soon after.

This legalization movement is just getting started and it's not going to stop with just citizenship. The wage issue is going to be next. Once these people see they have some power if they ban together they won't be satisfied with the crap wages they're being paid and that's a good thing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. Trans: The Mexican Bogeyman is gonna getcha'.

More xenophobia from the right.

The immigrants come here for a better life. Just as all immigrants have come here. They have become a "threat" only because politicians have used the "issue" to scare the populace with yet another fake bogeyman.

You want to raise the minimum wage? Demand amnesty and citizenship for them so they can join, and invigorate the unions, and show their muscle with some strikes.

[OzarkDem]

78. You are so right

The hysteria stirred up by these campaigns doesn't help anyone, it only hurts the effort to create a sound immigration policy.

Let's wait until after the election to consider changes to US immigration policies, when cooler heads prevail.

[Zookeeper]

207. I agree, OzarkDem...

Although the Senate bill was obviously better than the House bill, it was being rushed and I was certain that plenty of details were being overlooked. There was nothing presented that explained how employer penalties would actually be enforced. Kinda important, I'd say, since the government has done nothing to enforce the labor laws we already have.

"Cooler heads," yes, please.

[cynatnite]

81. Does no one think employers should be held responsible?

I've seen employers look the other way in order to get cheap labor. One farmer fired two of his hands, hired two mexicans and put them in a run down camper with no utilities. He paid them $3 per hour. Me and a friend found out, drover out and found out they hadn't been paid yet. They had no food at all. We bought them groceries.

Laying the blame at the feet of people who are looking for a better life serves no purpose.

[lastliberalintexas]

108. Thank you!

If I'd finished reading the thread before I posted I would have seen that at least one other person understands where the focus should really be. Yep, more inspections, audits and enforcement actions against employers would certainly help. Because other wage earners are not our enemy, but Corporate America sure is.

[endarkenment]

111. Employers should pay decent wages and benefits. nt.

[Bluebear]

216. Indeed! nt

[Coexist]

84. Thom Hartmann's fabulous article:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

Both the corporatists and the racists are fond of the mantra, "There are some jobs Americans won't do." It's a lie.

Americans will do virtually any job if they're paid a decent wage. This isn't about immigration - it's about economics. Industry and agriculture won't collapse without illegal labor, but the middle class is being crushed by it.

The reason why thirty years ago United Farm Workers' Union (UFW) founder Caesar Chávez fought against illegal immigration, and the UFW turned in illegals during his tenure as president, was because Chávez, like progressives since the 1870s, understood the simple reality that labor rises and falls in price as a function of availability.

As Wikipedia notes: "In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valley to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of illegal aliens as temporary replacement workers during a strike. Joining him on the march were both the Reverend Ralph Abernathy and U.S. Senator Walter Mondale. Chávez and the UFW would often report suspected illegal aliens who served as temporary replacement workers as well as who refused to unionize to the INS."

<snip>
Progressives fought - and many lost their lives in the battle - to limit the pool of "labor hours" available to the Robber Barons from the 1870s through the 1930s and thus created the modern middle class. They limited labor-hours by pushing for the 50-hour week and the 10-hour day (and then later the 40-hour week and the 8-hour day). They limited labor-hours by pushing for laws against child labor (which competed with adult labor). They limited labor-hours by working for passage of the 1935 Wagner Act that provided for union shops.

<snip>
It's frankly astonishing to hear "progressives" reciting corporatist/racist/conservative talking points, recycled through "conservative Democratic" politicians trying to pander to the relatively small percentage of recently-legal (mostly through recent amnesties or birth) immigrants who are trying to get their relatives into this country by means of Bush's proposed guest worker program or the many variations thereof being proposed.

<snip>
This is, after all, the middle-class "American Dream." And how much better this hemisphere would be if Central and South Americans were motivated to stay in their own nations (because no employer in the US would dare hire them) and fight there for a Mexican Dream and a Salvadoran Dream and a Guatemalan Dream (and so on).

This is the historic Progressive vision for all of the Americas...

[Zorra]

109. It appears to me that many Dems are completely ignorant of their

own Progressive/Labor history regarding dilution of the labor pool.

That article was right on.

It's not enough that we have to deal with republicans and conservative corporatists cutting the throats of the working person - we have to contend with well-intentioned, but uninformed, Democrats and liberals doing this as well.

"It's frankly astonishing to hear "progressives" reciting corporatist/racist/conservative talking points, recycled through "conservative Democratic" politicians trying to pander to the relatively small percentage of recently-legal (mostly through recent amnesties or birth) immigrants who are trying to get their relatives into this country by means of Bush's proposed guest worker program or the many variations thereof being proposed."

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

[IndyJones]

232. Great article. Thanks for posting it!

[kurth]

89. Amen, bro

Very well put.

[nolabels]

90. DUers supporting crooks falling into a trap

Heh, this is so stupid that it's funny. Us ordinary Joe's are left squabbling about some other workers that took our jobs while the the dudes making bank and not paying taxes on lot of it have got us marked for total fools.

When people start demanding the tax cheats hiring undocumented workers be held accountable then progress can be made. Just remember not to stop there though, demand congress raise taxes on corporations or large business that don't offer their employees affordable health care. The congress could make sanctions on employers who don't offer reasonable advancement potential or who employ un-educated staff.

This is an employers market set up for the large corporations and the rich. The way the country is headed there will soon debtors enslaved for restitution on past due accounts such as catastrophic medical conditions.

[endarkenment]

91. Get yer xenophobia here!

I'm all for closing the borders to workers as soon as we close the borders to the free flow of capital. Free trade and free tradesmen!

We can't have open borders because we would be flooded with immigrants? Hmmm... but... I thought the problem we are trying to solve is that we already are flooded with immigrants as the borders are effectively open. With our de facto open border to the south, the country simply has not collapsed. Why is that?

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

94. politics aside, if possible...isn't it time to stop acting like we have...

... some God-given right as American citizens? Isn't it time to think of ourselves as world citizens? Why am I entitled to the resources of this country simply because I was born here?
Don't worry...I know it'll never sell politically. But when a progressive board starts saying we have to take care of our own, it's more than a little troubling. That attitude is...well...mighty Republican of us.
Maybe your ancestors migrated across the Berring Land Bridge 15,000 years ago. If so, I acknowledge you have a different claim to stake. My ancestors didn't, though. I, like most of the residents of this country, descended from illegal immigrants--if you consider who owned this land first.

[Horse with no Name]

194. This is the first time I have ever seen one of your posts

Just wanted to tell you that you are spot on.:toast:

[Old and In the Way]

205. I'm 3 generations removed from immigration.

My great-grand parents came from Ireland and Canada.....they worked in the textile mills before there was an OSHA. I'll bet there were lots of resistance by the 'natives' (those that arrived a generation or 2 sooner). I think this debate is nothing new....just a new group to be made the scapegoat by the real criminals who control our government today.

Oddly, enough, they were voting Democrats.

[Marie26]

95. I was just thinking

that it was time for another immigration flame-war.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

97. scapegoats...get yer scapegoats here...free scapegoats, everybody!

[JPZenger]

100. Compromise is the Key

We can't expell 12 million illegal aliens from the US. The economy also can't afford to loose that many workers. However, we do need to get illegal immigration under control. A compromise is key - let the people who were here more than 5 years earn their right to stay here legally (including learning English), and make it very hard for new and more recent illegals to come in and to be employed. If someone commits a crime, you bounce their butt out of here.

We do need to slow new illegal immigration. The people who are hurt the most by it are low income African Americans and legal low income Latinos. It does push down wages. I live in Pa., and we are able to staff our hotels, our restaurants, our landscaping companies and our construction companies with very few illegals. Why can't California?

Meanwhile,the Dems are in a great position. We need to constantly publicize the bill that the GOP House members got passed in December. They voted to make 12 million illegal residents into Felons, vs. a civil offense. They also voted to make it a Federal crime to help an illegal resident, including humanitarian aid for children by churches. That is a great opportunity to gain Latino/Latina support for Democratic party ideas and to motivate people to vote.

[mtnester]

101. The Republicans used illegal immigrants for YEARS to drive wages down

Now that wages are where they want them, they can now use illegal immigration as a wedge issue..until such time as they need to drive wages down again, and use them as a wedge issue...

And then, once they need to drive wages down again....

[entanglement]

104. Hmmm, let's see

I want illegal aliens to be treated like the HUMAN BEINGS they are. I oppose people who are calling for violence against them and are SCAPEGOATING them for the myriad economic woes of this country. I'm trying to knock some sense into those who want all 12 million of them to be deported without understanding the tremendous human and economic costs. I want to point out the HYPOCRISY of people who use the illegal immigration issue as a cover to end ALL immigration.

The people that assume illegal immigrants are the enemy are the ones that have fallen into the trap.

:rant:

[Alcibiades]

116. Bravo

The real problem is the mismanagement of south and central American countries by a kelptocratic elite, aided and abetted by our CIA. Mexico has everything it takes to be a rich nation, if only it were run properly.

BTW, is it OK to support deporting all 12 million of them with a full understanding of the remendous economic and human costs? I think even then it's not OK.

[lastliberalintexas]

105. Other workers are not the problem, though

I certainly agree with the economics of what you are saying, as an increased supply of labor means lower wages for the majority. Especially if some of those new workers are illegals who are too afraid of reprisal to demand decent wages/working conditions/benefits/etc.

But I wish that we could keep our focus on the real enemy to labor, and that is Corporate America rather than other workers. Demand increased penalties and enforcement actions against employers found to hire/employ illegal workers, lobby for tax audits of businesses in certain industries which tend to hire illegal workers, and fight for universal healthcare and better wages for all. As long as we wage earners are fighting amongst ourselves, The Elite is making out like bandits.

[Ksec]

112. I agree Elwood

Why is that Mexico is so poor? Is it the leaders? People? I mean , this isnt new. Mexico has been like this for as long as I can remember. So tell me why the people havent raised up and changed things ? Why didnt they take to the streets of Mexico , like they did here, and demand things change? Instead they migrate here and take to our streets..WTF is wrong with this picture? Should Americans migrate down there and change things for them? Cant they do their own dirty work?

Im asking any Mexican who reads this to explain to me why I should think your culture of doing nothing to improve your country will be any different here? Migrating a few miles north will not change your culture of whatever it is you failed to do there. So you want me to make things all better for ya? You want me to give up my lifestyle and live like third world also?

[Ksec]

113. waiting for an answer

not another silly attack or a smartass comment/ Anyone care to answer seriously or will we go for another attack instead of a debate

[Alcibiades]

114. It is the Mexican Elite

But I was just about to post on that. They don't support public investment in things such as hospitals, schools, etc. It's not a cultural problem, or if it is, it's the culture of the elite, who rule, as they do in many other countries, extractively. They are a net drag on the economy, and don't reinvest in wealth-creating ways.

Thomas Jefferson thought the US should eventually include both North and South America. Annexation may be the only solution that improves the lot of the Mexican people.

[Bridget Burke]

122. Here's a recent protest in Mexico City

They are supporting the front-running candidate for President--from a more leftist party than Fox. (He's already been "linked" to Chavez & Castro.)

Open one of your Mexican History books & look up the 1910-1920 Revolution. And look up the Tlatelolco Massacre while you're there.

[Ksec]

132. Any results?

So why arent they still down their changing their country instead of coming here and demanding amnesty?

Congrats. you, Bush and the corporations all agree on this deal. You must be proud.

[Bridget Burke]

221. Yes. They were protesting a trumped up legal case.....

Against Andres Lopez Obrador, a Presidential Candidate. They won.

Who is demanding amnesty? The first protests were against an especially inhumane Republican proposal. How insulting for you that they dare criticize your party.

[High Plains]

189. Let me take a crack at this.

Mexico plays a subordinate role in the global economy. It was robbed of its mineral wealth by the Spanish. That gold and silver, incidentally, helped jumpstart the era of European colonialism. It fought for and won its independence from Spain in 1821, then spent most of the rest of that century in civil wars between liberals and conservatives. The Mexican Revolution of 1910-1919 overthrew the old regime. That revolution created a statist semi-capitalist economy (gave the Indians some of their lands back, etc.) and the PRI "perfect dictatorship" that ruled the country until Fox was elected in 2000. But in the 1980s and 1990s, the PRI embraced neoliberalism, started breaking up the ejidos (Indian communal lands) and opening Mexican agricultural markets to foreign (US agribusiness) competition. The Mexican economy was also hit hard by the peso crisis of 1995 (?) and has yet to recover. It is also losing manufacturing jobs to places like Indonesia and El Salvador, where wages are lower.

So, the short answer is it's a combination of historical circumstance (late and subordinate insertion into the global economy) and poor leadership. Neither the PRI nor Fox has been able to find policies that promote job creation at home.

And yes, the Mexicans fight this at home, too. That's why the Zapatistas rose up. And other before them. Many of the resisters in the 1960s and 1970s ended up dead or "disappeared." Others were imprisoned and tortured.

In July, the leftist Democratic Revolutionary Party (PRD) should win the presidency. One can hope that Lopez Obrador will do better for his people, but the fact remains the he will be constrained by Mexico's place in the world order.

Did that help?

[fleabert]

217. I challenge you to do a little research yourself.

find out first: when Mexicans became free from Spain

Here is what three seconds of googling got me that might shed some light on why Mexico might be lagging in some ways, compared to the US

The year 1821 brought political independence but failed to mark an end to Mexico's problems. The new nation inherited an economy and infrastructure that had been wrecked by ten years of civil war. European leaders looked to establish a strong presence in the former Spanish colony and gladly extended credit to Mexico, trapping it in a web of foreign debt. An aggressive neighbor, the United States, eyed Mexico's northern territory from Texas to California. Internal political factions struggled for control of Mexico's new government and the chance to shape the country's future. Civil war, invasion, and dismemberment awaited Mexico as the nineteenth century progressed.

and- while they have been independent for almost 200 years, the cities and settlements are much much older. Monterrey alone is over 400 years old. Mexico City had a population of over 200,000 in the 1400's, the area has gone thru birth, death, and rebirth over many centuries- this time is part of a rebirth.

Patience is needed.

[Kansas Wyatt]

115. Democrats are pissing a Golden Opportunity away

To reclaim millions of votes from working class, by taking a strong position against illegal workers flooding across the border. Working people are watching, and they are not seeing much representation from the Party that once championed their cause. At the same time, working class people are seeing some Republicans demanding the deportation of illegal workers undercutting wages (wink wink, nod nod).

Democratic Party, keep wondering why so many working people vote against their best interests.

I would really like to know where the INS is during all of these illegal immigrant parades all over the country and why aren't they enforcing the law?

[Inland]

119. Dems and libs snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on Immigration.

All dems and libs had to do was find SOME RESPONSIBLE position short of branding illegal immigrants or cutting off fingers and we could have beat the republicans like drums.

Instead, the tiny vocal minority advocates completely open borders and equating anyone who gave and sacrificed for this country with anybody who just wants to be here for whatever reason. It's crazy enough and unpopular enough in itself, but also has a dollop of hypocrisy and racism because they probably only mean Mexicans. It's tough to tell: the supposed open borders advocates get all evasive when the concept of immigrating Guatemalans and Asians and Bulgarians is brought up.

The Immigration issue has turned against democrats.

[Ksec]

133. No it hasnt because we are the majority of this party

The Democrats who agree with us outnumber them by 10 to 1 or more. They just dont post on DU for fear of being bludgeoned by them. I think its time you silent Dems speak up/

[countryjake]

215. No, some democrats are ignoring immigrants...

from yesterday's protest:

[Bridget Burke]

124. Sure--let the INS round up all the protesters.

Including the legal immigrants & the Native Born.

[Inland]

125. Let them set up and knock down HUNDREDS of straw men. nt

[Cleita]

117. Annex Mexico and make them American.

I think the majority of Mexicans would like that and so would American employers. End of problem? Probably not because being undocumented workers isn't why so many object so vociferously.

[Joanne98]

179. Will they let us own property? NO!

[countryjake]

182. Care to provide a link to back up your assertion?

You are wrong!

[Cleita]

201. So you're saying that the American government won't

let you own property? Because if Mexico becomes part of the USA, American laws will apply.

[Zorra]

218. Um...you may want to reconsider that assumption.

The Mexican people are just as proud of their cultural heritage and national sovereignity as I presume you are of your own.

I have lived in Mexico for 5 years.

I have a great deal of respect for the people and culture of Mexico. They fought and won their battles for freedom, just like Americans did.

Yes, Mexico is not as prosperous as the US.

But money is not the most important thing in life.

Many of the people that remain in Mexico, who do not care to emigrate to the US for money, seem to believe this.

IMO, based on my conversations with my Mexican friends, I'm sorry to say that most Mexicans don't really care much for your average gringo.

I guarantee this: The Mexican people would no more consent to annexation by another country than would the people of the US.

[goodboy]

120. C.I.S., (formerly INS) is the 3rd ring of HELL! goodgirl is from Estonia,

and, although we'll have been married for 4 years this July, she's only had her green card for less than a year! We haven't had our last interview, and she hasn't been called to take her citizenship test either.

So, if you follow all the rules, pay anywhere from $1500.00 to $3000.00 in forms and fees and legal expenses and put up with the life-sucking bureaucracy that is the Fed...it'll still take up to 5 years.


I told goodgirl, she should've flown to Mexico from Estonia and swam across the Rio Grande...would've been quick, cheap, and she'd have health care too!


:P

[Inland]

128. From Estonia?

Yeah, she's certainly get a lot more sympathy on DU from the "open borders" crowd if she were Mexican. Start asking if Bulgarians, Asians, and Guatemalans should be welcomed without limitation and there's more than a little evasion.

[goodboy]

222. no doubt...too bad sympathy here doesn't move our case along faster

CIS, INS, GFY...whatever they're called are still fighting the cold war--immigrants from countries that sponsor terrorism or have exported terrorists in the past have an easier time that those from the former Soviet sattelite countries and Mother Russia et al.

Gotta watch those vodka-swillin' REDS!!!!

[Ksec]

158. Excellent point

One theyll run from.

[goodboy]

223. you know that Saudi's, Somali's, Jordanian's, Syrians, and Turks

all get in much easier than anyone immigrating from any of the former Soviet um....territo...possessions?

[Vidar]

131. Amen. This is a no-win topic for either side.

[Joanne98]

134. THANK YOU!

[porphyrian]

136. The trap is in thinking this is an important issue, given the others.

The fact that there are so many posts about it is testament to that.

[mdmc]

139. nah. we need to make immigration legal

and available. It is great that the dems are backing immigrants.

[GirlinContempt]

144. This is just sick.

[Bluebear]

219. Word.

[B Calm]

155. The Republican Party agenda has always been Cheap Labor!

They hate unions, because when labor sticks together, wages go up!

They hate all social programs or safety nets, because when you're unemployed and desperate, corporations can pay you whatever they feel like –– which is inevitably next to nothing. You see, they want you "over a barrel" and in a position to "work cheap or starve".

Cheap-labor conservatives don't like the minimum wage, or other improvements in wages and working conditions. Why. These reforms undo all of their efforts to keep you "over a barrel".

Cheap-labor conservatives like "free trade", NAFTA, GATT, etc. Why. Because there is a huge supply of desperately poor people in the third world, who are "over a barrel", and will work cheap.

They hate the Social Security safety net program and are trying to get rid of it. They are salivating over the prospect of millions of desperate, hungry, baby boomers who are "over a barrel", and will work cheap.

[rodeodance]

198. I am thinking of the kids born here and who my tutors help in the schools.

No, not a trap--just practical.

[B Calm]

200. What about the cheap labor issue?

As far as the kids born here, their home is with their parents in their own country.

[thinkingwoman]

202. K&R, plus

a slight rant against the people who keep flaming those of us that recognize illegal immigration for what it is.

I've been called inhuman and a nazi (despite pointing out that I was Jewish). It's absolutely ridicious, and I'm certainly not the only flame recipient about this topic here at DU.

I'd completely stopped opening threads about this topic until I read your subject line Thank you for pointing out the obvious!

[Bluebear]

225. So now you only open threads you agree with?

:crazy:

[Solon]

213. This stands out as wrong...

It's time for Mexico to stop exporting their problems and their poverty, and it's time for the USA to start taking care of it's own citizens.

Look up US farm subsidies and the effect they have had on Mexican Farmers back in Mexico because of being NAFTA signees, here, I'll give you a hint, they lose the farm, then they cross the border, so I guess BOTH sides are at fault here. Want to help solve illegal immigration, why not, I don't know, end farm subsidies here?

[Bridget Burke]

224. And the post you are responding to slams all non-citizens...

Even those with 100% legal green cards.

Some people want the USA to become a Gated Community--shutting out the rest of the world. (Who would run the leaf blowers in their Ideal Gated Community?)

[Emit]

226. Except Thom Hartman addressed the health care issue

The simple way to do this today is to require that all non-refugee immigrants go through the same process to become American citizens or legal workers in this country (no amnesties, no "guest workers," no "legalizations") regardless of how they got here; to confront employers who hire illegals with draconian financial and criminal penalties; and to affirm that while health care (and the right to provide humanitarian care to all humans) is an absolute right for all people within our boundaries regardless of status, a paycheck, education, or subsidy is not.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm


Dobbs would probably shit upon hearing that.

[Onlooker]

231. Those who oppose immigrant rights might as well be Republican

The immigrant movement is a social movement and like the women's movement and civil rights movement before it will transform America. Only by setting up ways for illegals to become legal can we begin to handle the problem, and these illegals who are here to stay and who have exhibited a lot of power will eventually prevail and have voting rights. The anti-immigrant movement is essently racist and Republican, and we can take care of our own citizens while also remaining an immigrant nation.