I applaud Steve Gilliard's take on the Duke lacrosse rape case

[FredScuttle]

First, he highlights some key passages from the AP article -

Because the woman said her attackers were white, the team's sole black player was not tested. It was not known whether investigators tested for DNA other than the players'.

...................................

While Nifong's assistant told the AP on Monday the prosecutor would not comment on the findings, Nifong told The News & Observer of Raleigh he believes a sexual assault took place.

"I'm not saying it's over," he told the newspaper. "If that's what they expect, they will be sadly disappointed."

North Carolina Central University, where the alleged victim is a student, said after the results were released that the prosecutor would appear at a campus forum on Tuesday to discuss the case.

"The truth is if you speak to crime lab directors, they will tell you that in only a relatively small number of cases is there any DNA evidence," said Peter Neufeld, co-founder of the Innocence Project.

That last sentence is very important, especially in light of all those crowing that this means the case is over.

Some on this board think, absent of DNA evidence, that it will be impossible to convince twelve jurors that a stripper can be raped. I'd think the District Attorney has a case to make and he's in the process of doing that. He's not an idiot...he knew going into this that he'd have a high threshold to clear to convince a jury that a sex worker could be raped, DNA or no DNA evidence.

I am more ready to believe that a house full of drunken lacrosse players could include a couple sociopaths capable of sexual assault than I am that a woman would go through all of this just to lie....what would be her motive, exactly? And, if she's the grand schemer the defense is making her out to be, why didn't they advise their clients to talk to the police to begin with?

Benefit of the doubt? To a group which includes the guy who yelled to the black victim "Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt, bitch"? Not a chance.


NEWS BLOG: http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2006/04/no-dnashe-has-to-be-lying-right.html

AP article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/duke_lacrosse_investigation;_ylt=AjAwYLVHJ5Z5.Zf0pvtBQ5Ws0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

[Caoimhe]

1. I worry that a precident may be set

that if there is no DNA present, it is assumed there was no rape. I don't know the details of this case, but the implications are huge. Does this mean if a rapist uses a condom, the woman isn't really raped?

[FredScuttle]

4. Read the quote again

"The truth is if you speak to crime lab directors, they will tell you that in only a relatively small number of cases is there any DNA evidence," said Peter Neufeld, co-founder of the Innocence Project.

Some would like you to believe that if there's no DNA match, then there's no rape....but the truth is that's only one piece of the puzzle. Plus, the defense is being very crafty in their wording about the DNA results.

Blame CSI.

[MADem]

2. Have they averred that they found NO DNA? That hasn't been said

in the few reports I have seen on this matter. All I heard is that there was no match.

If DNA was found, they need to establish who was in the house (I wouldn't expect someone not from the school to know who plays on the Duke lacrosse team) and proceed from there.

I'm reserving judgment, either way. I sure as hell wasn't there, so all I know is what I see on the tee vee. And there's not much save speculation coming out of that media format--a lot of oohing and aahing, speculating and pontificating, but not much in the way of facts or evidence, either way.

[chelsea0011]

3. I think we need to wait until the full story is released by the ..

prosecution. He says she was raped but what type of rape has never been divulged, I believe. Absence of DNA proof in itself doesn't mean you can't be raped. It just means there was no transfer of that type of evidence. However, if she claimed to prosecutors that she was raped in a manner that one would expect transfer of DNA evidence, this case is all but over.

[FredScuttle]

7. True

the prosecutor is building the case he wants to proceed with...I doubt the DNA test results were the end-all and be-all of his investigation

[wakeme2008]

5. It was MORE than just no DNA,, there was no signs of

sexual activity.... Condoms leave markers there was NONE found...

[FredScuttle]

6. Ahem

From the AP article: "A doctor and forensic sexual assault nurse examined the woman and found evidence consistent with a rape having occurred, police documents show."

I don't even think the defense said the report found no sexual activity

[bloom]

11. The defense has had 3 weeks

To try to see what evidence there is and try to come up with a story that fits. Like that the two women were in the bathroom for 27 minutes. I doubt they have anything to prove that - but that scenario would account for the 27 minute gap in the photo sequence.

And with there is evidence that she was injured - they have to try to come up with some alternate explanation.

It doesn't sound to me like there is a case that she was as impaired when she got there as when she left.

I think it also sounds like they have a case of felonious intimidation on just about all the guys - enough to make plea deals in exchange for testimony.

[wakeme2008]

16. Yes they did in the video yesterday...

:) they read from the SBI report.

[Karmakaze]

8. Hmmm... I dunno...

I am more ready to believe that a house full of drunken lacrosse players could include a couple sociopaths capable of sexual assault than I am that a woman would go through all of this just to lie....what would be her motive, exactly?

I dunno. Why would a woman plant a finger in a bowl of chilli?

I'm not saying that she wasn't raped - I don't know all of the evidence - but claiming that the woman would have no motive to make false claims is faulty. There are a whole lot of reasons she might want to make a false claim. Perhaps someone was rude to her, or perhaps she didn't make enough money, or perhaps she just thought she could file a massive lawsuit. False charges of rape have happened before.

Benefit of the doubt? To a group which includes the guy who yelled to the black victim "Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt, bitch"? Not a chance.

If she lied about the rape, isn't it possible she lied about that too?

You sound like you have made your mind up - no evidence or argument is going to change it - these "drunken lacrosse players" MUST have raped her! Why?

[Lex]

10. There are independent witnesses to the racial slurs (a neighbor)

so I doubt we can mark that off as her lying about that.

There are hospital reports with detailed information about her condition that haven't been released yet, so we only have a little of the physical evidence so far.

[rinsd]

9. What are you applauding?

Someone sticking to their guns based on very few facts and their own preconceived notions?

Personally I awaiting to see actual evidence introduced not the dueling press conferences by obviously biased parties.

Gillaird can't do that becuase he's already on the limb with the hang 'em high crowd and he's too fucking proud and stubborn to admit he may have jumped the gun. Not much to applaud there.

[neohippie]

12. motive to lie

Her motive to lie could have been that the persons on the lacrosse team were making racial comments and when she and the other stripper who was also there got upset about it they decided to get them all in a big scandal, which is pretty much what happened...

It looks like there is plenty of evidence that the victim had signs of sexual activiity but that she had the bruises and other evidence before she arrived.

I suspect that this is probably what happened based on what I have heard and read here in the local area.

There are a lot of escorts in this area, and I have heard lots of stories about people being robbed by them, the agencies sending out black girls when white girls were requested etc... wouldn't a prostitute, who had just come from one call going to another call show evidence of sexual activity, couldn't that appear to be evidence of rape when the medical staff were not given an accurate account of what happened by alleged victim.

I am not saying that anyone is involved with this mess is innocent and I would never defend a rape, but I would also try to avoid jumping to any conclusion without looking at more than one side of the story. I think what happened here was that an over-zealous prosecuter heard only what he wanted to hear when he took on this case, and wanted to have these kids tried in the media...

[Lex]

13. Do you trust the "time stamp" on the photos the lacrosse team

claims they have? I don't know, I'm just wondering about that because that's what they are hanging their hat on in terms of their time line.

[neohippie]

14. pictures not really a big deal to me

I think the biggest thing that convinced me that there was no rape is the time frame of the sequence of events that happened with the 911 call and the stippers arriving... then leaving then coming back, all witnessed by neighbors.

[TheWraith]

15. Answers to your questions

"I am more ready to believe that a house full of drunken lacrosse players could include a couple sociopaths capable of sexual assault than I am that a woman would go through all of this just to lie....what would be her motive, exactly?"

Statistically speaking, the number one motivation for false reports is malicious intent towards the accused--in this case, maybe an expectation that the parents would offer hush money to keep the case from going forward. The second most prevalent reason is attention seeking, and the third is craziness.

"And, if she's the grand schemer the defense is making her out to be, why didn't they advise their clients to talk to the police to begin with?"

They've been talking to the police. "Not cooperating," in DA-speak, means they haven't confessed to committing any crimes. But they have been talking to the police.

Whether this case still exists hinges on whether or not there was any DNA evidence recovered from the accuser's body. The DA has been trying since the tests came back to imply that there wasn't, but if that were the case, there would have been nothing to compare the players samples to. If there were DNA, not from any of the players, then the investigators would have to find that person, and place them at the party that night, in order to salvage the case as it stands now. And yes, as other posters have noted, you shouldn't be so credulous when it comes to reports about what was said or done.

[PBass]

17. I thought that I had read about some team member emails

that talked about killing some strippers, and that type of thing.

Also, I believe the legal definition of rape can be pretty broad, so if there is no DNA evidence that might not mean a thing.

[TheWraith]

18. There was an email from one of the players

That (allegedly) mentioned something about bringing strippers to a dorm room, killing them, and skinning them. However, we don't know anything about the context of this email. I'd be surprised if there were really that many people who had not at least once sent an email which could be interpreted as having anti-social intent.

[theboss]

19. The problem is who do you charge

I am entirely open to the idea that a rape may have taken place. I just don't know how the DA can look at the 45 or so possible suspects and decide which three stand trial. It seems like he needed the DNA to narrow the group of suspects.

If I am the defense, I just keep brining up the fact that the odds are 1 in 15 that he even has the correct suspects.