"I love George Bush, but I would hate him if he bombed my country."

[BurtWorm]

Timothy Garton Ash wrote this very interesting inside account of life in Iran just after the election of Ahmadinejad last fall. The whole article is worth reading, but here's an especially relevant snippet for the present:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18390


What of Iran's nuclear program? That was not a pressing concern for the young people I met. None of them raised the issue in conversation with me. When I asked them about it, they fell into two groups. The first group felt that Iran, a proud but insecure nation flanked by neighbors already possessing nuclear weapons, has a right not just to civilian nuclear power but also to nuclear weapons. The second felt that a democratic Iran should undoubtedly have such a right, but they would rather this repressive regime did not obtain nuclear weapons. Yet both insisted with equal vehemence that an American or Israeli bombing of nuclear installations, let alone an Iraq-style invasion, would be a wholly unacceptable response to Iran's nuclear ambitions.

"I love George Bush," said one thoughtful and well-educated young woman, as we sat in the Tehran Kentucky Chicken restaurant, "but I would hate him if he bombed my country." She would oppose even a significant tightening of economic sanctions on those grounds. A perceptive local analyst reinforced the point. Who or what, he asked, could give this regime renewed popular support, especially among the young? "Only the United States!"

If, however, Europe and the United States can avoid that trap; if whatever we do to slow down the nucleariza-tion of Iran does not end up merely slowing down the democratization of Iran; and if, at the same time, we can find policies that help the gradual social emancipation and eventual self-liberation of Young Persia, then the long-term prospects are good. The Islamic revolution, like the French and Russian revolutions before it, has been busy devouring its own children. One day, its grandchildren will devour the revolution.

—October 6, 2005

[deadparrot]

1. "I love George Bush..."

:scared:

Okay, granted it's followed by a qualifier, but those words chill me to the bone.

And make me go: :wtf:

[BurtWorm]

2. I know the feeling.

It's a testament to an earlier assertion Ash makes about the young in Teheran: while they're very sophisticated about their own politics, they're very naive about politics in the West.

[leftchick]

29. you would think the war right next door might influence them

perhaps they like the US slaughtering Iraqis? :shrug:

[BurtWorm]

30. I strongly recommend you read the whole article.

It is not about how the young people of Iran love George Bush, contrary to what most people who have responded to the title of this thread seem to believe. Maybe we could get a little more sophisticated about Iran?

[leftchick]

31. perhaps

you could have included a little more in your OP like this...

<snip>

The regime has spent twenty-five years trying to make these young Iranians deeply pro-Islamic, anti-American, anti-Western, and anti-Israeli. As a result, most of them are resentful of Islam (at least in its current, state-imposed form), rather pro-American, and have a friendly curiosity about Israel. One scholar, himself an Islamic reformist, suggested that Iran is now—under the hijab, so to speak—the most secular society in the Islamic world. Many also dream of life in America, sporting baseball caps that say, for example, "Harward Engineering School." Quite a few young Iranians even welcomed the invasion of Iraq, hoping it would bring freedom and democracy closer to them. Seeing how the US invasion has benefited the Shiites in southern Iraq, they joke that President George W. Bush is "the thirteenth imam."

These 45 million young people are the best hope there is of peaceful regime change in the Islamic Republic of Iran. Their "soft power" could be more effective than forty-five divisions of the US Marines. One positive legacy of the eight years of Khatami's reformist presidency is that this generation has grown up with less fear than its predecessors. The students at Tehran University launched a large-scale protest in summer 1999. They will never forgive Khatami for allowing it to be suppressed. Each year since, a small number of them have tried to mark the anniversary with demonstrations, which have been broken up by the police. Repression is fierce: as I write, a well-known student leader has just been condemned to six years in prison. Yet the impression I got from those I talked to is that they intend to struggle on, perhaps with subtler and more inventive forms of protest.

<snip>

The United States would, however, be making a huge mistake if it concluded that these young Iranians are automatic allies of the West—and, so to speak, soldiers of the thirteenth imam. Their political attitudes toward the West are complex, often deeply confused, and volatile. Unlike in neighboring Turkey, even the most outspoken would-be democratizers don't envisage their country becoming part of the West. They seek a specifically Iranian version of modern society. If they see their ancient civilization in a wider regional setting at all, they call it the Middle East or Asia. "We Oriental people," one student activist prefaced his remarks. Moreover, they are as ill-informed about Western policies and realities as they are well-informed about Iran's.






And yes I read the whole thing. A lot of folks don't have time for it though, so a few more snips are helpful. Or a longer summery by you in the OP? It is an excellent article thank you for posting it. It takes me back to 2002 when I was reading a lot about Iraq culture and politics, then the US invaded. :(

[BurtWorm]

32. I made the mistake of assuming most DUers had the maturity to understand

context. As I said elsewhere, if I could do it over again, I would have used a different title, one DUers wouldn't catch their toes on.

[madeline_con]

6. "... said one thoughtful and well-educated young woman ..."

Obviously not well enough!

[BurtWorm]

8. I'm very disappointed that that's all DUers seem to be able to see

in that quote. Way to prove DU is literally blinded by Bush hatred.

[madeline_con]

11. She said she loves DUH-bya.

IMO, no "well-educated" person anywhere in the world would preface anything they said with that statement.

[Jigarotta]

13. yeppers. where have You been? nt

[deadparrot]

14. Not blinded by hatred.

Just perplexed.

Given the state of US/Iran relations since 1979 (especially our pro-Hussein Iraq alliances in the 1980s), with much of that policy generated by the Bush/Reagan people, I'm just not sure where she gets all the love-feelings for the Bush family and its political allies. :shrug:

[BurtWorm]

15. Oh for God's sake. Grow up, people! (Not you, necessarily.)

You're missing nuances. It's your loss.

[deadparrot]

17. Okay.

:shrug:

[BurtWorm]

19. She doesn't really love George Bush. Come on!

Her meaning to the US is clear: "Don't fuck with Iran."

You see that, no?

[deadparrot]

26. I'm sure that's correct.

It's just a strange way to put it, is all.

[ShortnFiery]

33. Iranians love European - modern fashion, not all things American n/t

That's just one hell-va-an arrogant assumption. :(

[BurtWorm]

34. What are you referring to?

[wtmusic]

9. GWB is the enemy of their enemy Saddam

I can't imagine it goes farther than that

[BurtWorm]

16. Exactly.

This woman doesn't know George Bush from a dog's asshole. That's not the point of what she's saying anyway.

[JohnKleeb]

20. Ok man explain what her point is

I got a little bit of background knowledge on Iran and how its government works and the culture. I think what she's trying to say is that while she like many young Iranians definely is interested by American culture, if anyone didn't know Iran is half under the age of 18, they had a huge population boom after Ayatollah Khomeni came in to power after the revoltuion basically she is trying to say that while her and her fellow Iranians definely like US culture and perhaps Americans themselves tehy would resist to the death an American invasion. Thats my opinion at least. Iran really is a complicted country in so many ways and it would be a lot better if something like what happened in Ukraine happened there. Their Islamic Republic is a misyomer and it's bullshit too. Women can't run for president in Iran and a council gets to choose who is worthly to run.

[BurtWorm]

21. Very well said, John.

:toast:

You read her perfectly, as far as I can tell.

Her point is something Bush doesn't have the stuff to hear or understand. But the rest of us better get it.

[Danieljay]

3. She lost me at the word "love" n/t

[BurtWorm]

4. I wonder how an American Bush lover would react to the whole quote.

Would they stop at the word "hate?"

[Danieljay]

27. I get your point but the thought of someone (other than brotherly love)

LOVING George Bush is a little uncomprehendible at this time. I'm supposed to LOVE George Bush too on the spiritual plane but I can't get past his physical existance and worldly effed up manifestations to see the good in him.

[BurtWorm]

28. It's all about you, isn't it?

;)

[Danieljay]

36. Yep. I'm a narcissistic SOB. Just ask anyone that actually knows me.

:sarcasm: Obviously, you don't.

[BurtWorm]

37. With a great sense of humor about himself.

:sarcasm:

Seriously, no offense was intended.

This thread was supposed to be about a warning from the people of Iran to the people of the United States. Sorry it got turned into something about the "lovability" of George Bush.

It really ain't all about the Bush boy.

[saltpoint]

5. "I just love brain-dead, soulless fake cowboys who live essentially

unchallenged lives and surround themselves with reptilian assholes. I just love 'em. But they better not bomb my country. Why, people might get hurt or something."

_ _ _ _ _
I understand that this woman's perspective is from an entirely different vantage point, but on the surface of it, the quotaton is misleading. Or rather, the context it creats misleads. Something like that.

A lot of the people in western cities flooded the streets before the first bombs fell on Iraq and many of those people are even less enamored of George Bush now than they were then.

[BurtWorm]

7. You have to take that first clause with a grain of salt.

She doesn't literally mean she "loves" George Bush. Come on!

The point of my posting this is not the "love George Bush" bit, folks. Take that log out of your eyes and reread the whole passage. Read the whole article. This is not about how much love young Iranians feel for Bush. :eyes:

[saltpoint]

12. I do, BurtWorm. Wasn't cherry-picking without the explanation i put

in at the bottom.

I follow what you're doin' here & applaud it.

[BurtWorm]

18. I realize that.

It's just frustrating when you post something you think is going to spread some enlightenment, and everyone gets hung up on the leeeeeast significant part of the quote.

[saltpoint]

22. I understand, and apologize for not doing a good job of responding.

Your posts are traditionally good, and they're appreciated.

:thumbsup:

[BurtWorm]

23. Well, I really appreciate THAT!

:toast:

If I could do it all over, I would give this thread a less distracting title. I hope people read the whole article following the link. It gives good insight into the nation and people of Iran.

[spag68]

10. Not quite on this thread but

I was wondering if my motorcycle will run on irradiated fuel.

[Strawman]

24. so what

So what if she says she loves Bush. You might try a little flattery if you thought someone was going to drop a friggin nuclear bomb on your country.

We're in no position to judge this woman.

[BurtWorm]

25. Prezackly!

Well said.

:toast:

[Marr]

35. I'd assumed the Bush Admin' had already bolstered the popularity of

the Iranian regime by invading two of Iran's neighbors. When people are scared, they'll support their "team", no questions asked. I'm surprised the Bush team doesn't seem to understand that fact. They certainly depend on fear and xenophobia at home.