Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Religions of Mass Destruction

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 10:53 PM
Original message
Religions of Mass Destruction
Edited on Tue Apr-11-06 11:24 PM by arendt
I'm still not satisfied with this essay. I have spent a month thinking and reading; trying to find some new angle to enlighten people. I feel like its all been said before, and none of it has accomplished anything. Its preaching to the choir. Basically, my advice is to read "The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity" and be very afraid.

arendt

----------------

Religions of Mass Destruction
by arendt

"Faith is what credulity becomes when it finally achieves escape velocity from the constraints of terrestrial discourse - constraints like reasonableness, internal coherence, civility, and candor... Ignorance is the true coinage of this realm - "Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed" (John 20:29) - and every child is instructed that it is, at the very least, an option, if not a sacred duty, to disregard the facts of this world out of deference to the God who lurks in his mother's and father's imaginations.

"But faith is an impostor. This can be readily seen in the way that all extraordinary phenomena of the religious life - a statue of the Virgin weeps, a child casts his crutches to the ground - are seized upon by the faithful as confirmation of their faith. At these moments, religious believers appear like men and women in the desert of uncertainty given a cool drink of data."


-Sam Harris, "The End of Faith"


It is the most irrational of times; it is the most hyper-rational of times. It is the age of wisdom, it is the age of foolishness. It is the epoch of belief, it is the epoch of incredulity. (Apologies to Mr. Dickens.)

Today, as every day for the past few years, the media brings me news reports from the fourteenth century. Religious fervor grips the world. Christians fight Moslems, with both sides convinced that eternal glory awaits those who die for their god. Christians torture other Christians in the name of Jesus. Wherever this war-like Christianity reigns, women are second-class citizens, whose duty is to provide babies and be submissive to the "pater familias". One might ask why internecine religious slaughter and misogyny is news, since it has been with us as long as old men worshipped other old men. The news is that it is happening in 21st century America, a Republic founded upon Separation of Church and State and made pre-eminent by its strong support for science and technology.

But the media also brings me glowing reports of globalization - the great Race to the Bottom, the Big Sellout of the American middle class by the American elites. I can watch factories, both high-tech and low-tech, close in America, only to reopen in China or India (high-tech) or some third world sweatshop(low-tech). The Bahamas-domiciled "American" oligarchs running this process have no loyalty to America, no respect for the global environment that unrestrained, laissez faire capitalism and a fossil fuel economy are wrecking, and no compassion for the societies that are imploding from the draining of their assets for the benefit of a tiny minority. All those concepts - loyalty, respect, and compassion - have no place in a global balance sheet. They are not quantifiable. They do not add to shareholder value, so there is no fiduciary duty to these quaint concepts.

It seems that the current U.S. leadership failed to learn from the misery caused in the mid-20th century by the secular religions of Colonialism (a.k.a. white man's burden), Communism, and Naziism. Our leadership has turned our economy over to the latest incarnation of corporatism, known as globablism, and turned our social policy over to the medieval, irrational lunacy of fundamentalist clerics.

It is the utter intellectual incompatibility of corporatism and fundamentalism that arms the right wing so well politically. The cynical apparatchiks of the right can beat you up one minute for being "irrational" in your opposition to the free market, then turn around and whack you for being "un-Christian" in your demands for separation of church and state. Because no one is allowed to point out the total inconsistency of the right wing's policies, they can make any doublespeak argument they want. The corporate media will instantly send any offending factual leakage "down the memory hole" until it is needed for some later bashing of the ever-mistaken opposition to "free markets" or "family values" or whatever slogan can be trotted out to cover up the latest abomination.

----

Therefore, the resistance to corporate theocracy must find a commonality among right- wing thought patterns that cannot be deflected by shifting the context from laissez fair economics to theology without stopping in between at reality.

Fortunately, the commonality is an elephant in the living room: hyper-macho, alpha-male primitivism. The only coin of this dark realm is power. Law is whatever the powerful say it is; Constitutions be damned. And, only straight males have the right to power because they are more easily socialized into regimented, hyper-competitive, homosocial hierarchies.

At the apex of all mythologies of power is "the will". It seems that while the scientists were creating the Industrial Revolution, the politicians were creating paeans to will, often with metaphors of metallic hardness: Nietzsche's "Will to Power"; Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will"; Stalin, the man of Steel; and a thousand corporate pamphlets about success through will power and toughness. Fundamentalism, which really got started as reactionary resistance to industrialism, is also all about using your will (not your brains) to overcome the world (a.k.a. the snares of the devil).

This mindset of unreasoning loyalty to cult leadership has caused so much trouble in human history that everyone, conservative or liberal, at least pays lip service to opposing it - usually by claiming that the other side practices it. Unfortunately the worship of power, the animal male hierarchy, is hardwired into humans, the real "fallen" nature of human beings. In America today, the cult of willpower has risen Phoenix-like from the ashes of the 20th century ideologies to capture the levers of political, economic, and social power.

In its denial of political, scientific, and social reality, fundamentalism pegs the willpower meter. The manifestations of will run amuck in fundamentalist America abound: the widely quoted Ron Rosenbloom interview about the White House's disdain for the "reality-based community"; the "Intelligent Design" movement - the latest cynical pandering to fundamentalist ignorance and fear of science; the demand for willpower-based solutions to the drug problem ("Just say no.") and the teenage pregnancy problem (abstinence-only). What is left unsaid is that the only way to enforce such tried-and-failed, willpower-based solutions on a skeptical populace is with coercion and violence. The next time you hear the phrase "faith-based", just substitute "willpower-based" and it will all make sense. Willpower-based solutions always blame the victim for failure and, like 14th century doctors, call for more bleedings.

Hence we come to the first mass destruction of the religion of corporate Christian theocracy: the wholesale assault on intellectual endeavor, on historical awareness, on accurate comprehension of today's world outside of the theocracy. Education is always the first target of theocrats; witness the Islamic madrassas that the political right criticizes in order to to demonize all Moslems. (Of course, the media would never point out that the fundamentalists are busy running their very own madrassas right here in America.) Theocrats want indoctrinated, heavily-policed followers; not skeptical, self-aware citizens.
You don't need brains, you just need willpower and loyalty to whatever Nietzschean cult of will is manipulating your holy symbols.

The second mass destruction of corporate theocracy is the destruction of the political, economic, and social rights of women. Corporations and some Western governments initially had no objection to tough women rising by merit to positions of power. Not even a right-winger could argue that Margaret Thatcher should have stayed at home baking cookies. But, corporations soon found that the economic and social insecurities of fundamentalist men could give them a hand in their battle against progressive regulation. You see, all you needed was a powerful liberal WOMAN politician on which to focus the fundamentalists' fear. Is there any wonder that Hilary Clinton is the most vilified woman politician since Eleanor Roosevelt?

While women's rights are being rolled back in the U.S, they at least existed. But overseas, we now fund the Pakistani fundamentalists who have no problem with "honor killings" of women. All over South Asia, children are sold into prostitution. Russian mobsters trick teenage girls with promises of overseas jobs, and they too are enslaved and raped into prostitution. After 100 years, we still cannot manage to prosecute incest mascarading as family values among renegade Mormons in Utah. On the flip side of the whore/madonna coin, we installed and have no problem with the Salvadorian police state that surveils pregnancy with a ruthlessness that would make Nikolai Ceacescu envious. (It seems the NY times momentarily woke up on that subject.)

What goes for women, goes triple for the other usual-suspect minorities that are always the whipping boys of ignorant, male authoritarianism: gays, darkies, Jews, and intellectuals. The recently won toleration of all these groups will be smashed in a typically animalistic male berserker backlash.

With education and civil rights rolled back, the third mass destruction is the destruction of genuine democracy and peace. We have declared "permanent war" on "terrorism". We live in an Orwellian police state that has demolished the checks and balances of our government. It taps our phones, disperses political protests, sells its favors to the highest bidder behind closed doors, bankrupts our treasury, and militarizes every aspect of domestic and foreign policy. Today, the only thing America is really good at making is trouble.

Our democracy has been replaced by an unprecedented cult of personality around the simpering personality of George Bush. Here is a politician with abysmal popularity, multiple criminal investigations of his appointees and cronies (whom he purports never to have known), and a record of open public lies. Yet the media can barely manage to report all this malfeasance (and even then, it makes excuses for it), much less draw the conclusion that a 13-year old would draw: this man and his entire administration are dangerous, lying, crooks and warmongers. Instead, the corporate media crucify anyone daring to tell the truth, from Governor Dean to Senator Feingold.

The fourth mass destruction of corporate theocracy is the environment. Contrary to Jesus' injunction to "be good stewards", Rapture-addled devotees of fundamentalism don't care about leaving a viable biosphere for their children. They have been willfully blind to global warming and oblivious to unprecedented levels of pollution and species destruction. This is demonstrably un-Christian. The Eastern Orthodox Church (Christians last time I checked) has embraced environmentalism, as have a large group of Christian Evangelical denominations. The fundamentalists have no theological leg to stand on. So, we are back to willpower.

----

The people most likely to substitute willpower for thought are those for whom thought comes with difficulty. This difficulty could be due to nature or to nurture, but it is pretty well set in life by the time one reaches adulthood. Unfortunately for the United States, anti-intellectualism has been a prominent part of our culture for our entire brief existence as a nation. With the rise of electronic communication, the small corpus of thoughtful writing that had been produced was inundated by a flood of pointedly low-brow consumerist tripe. Literacy rates have been going down for decades.

It is this artificially engineered dis-education and de-politicization that has allowed fundamentalist operatives - wolves in clerics clothing, like Charles Colson - an entrance to political and social power. We have the classic totalitarian mixture of gullliblilty and cynicism: the gullible led by the cynical. But, "gullible" is too polite a word. Gullible is a rube buying a counterfeit Rolex on his first visit to the Big Apple. What we have is a whole segment of the population that has undergone a religious lobotomy. They behave pre-rationally, to the point of self-destruction. But it is more than self-destruction. These people are destroying not only our country, but any chance for a peaceful and sustainable world for centuries to come. This behavior, sad to say, fits the classic description of "stupid":

...."A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of
....persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses."


And our country exhibits the inevitable result of such behavior:

....“In a country which is moving downhill, the fraction of stupid people (has not
....changed); however in the remaining (non-stupid) population one notices among those
....in power an alarming proliferation of bandits with overtones of stupidity, and among
....those not in power an equally alarming growth in the number of helpless individuals.
....Such change in the composition of the non-stupid population inevitably strengthens the
....destructive power of the (stupid) fraction and makes decline a certainty. And the
....country goes to hell.


........ Carlo Cipolla, “The Basic Laws of Human Stupidity”
........ http://cantrip.org/stupidity.html

Over the last ten years, American society has been on a trajectory similar to an Alzheimer's victim. At first, it forgets the little things; it becomes cranky to its dearest friends. Then it becomes helpless; and finally, it is reduced to infantile behavior before it finally dies. And the sociopaths who infected us with this wasting disease will laugh all the way to the bank. History will write that:

....Never have so few stolen so much from so many, who remained so clueless.

At this point, the situation of the United States is beyond repair - even if FDR and Abraham Lincoln were put in charge of a government of geniuses. We have been systematically looted. Our infrastructure sent overseas, our public education system deliberately sabotaged, our military used as a blunt instrument, our national reputation reduced to that of ignorant thugs, and our public debt run off the charts. All this at the exact moment when peak oil, global warming, and massive overpopulation are about to push most of the world's systems into collapse. Stupidity in the form of religious fundamentalism has triumphed.

I offer no solution. Perhaps we will see the fragmentation of America, with the old Northern industrial core surviving as the "Eastern American Republic", akin to the Eastern Roman Empire that outlasted the Western Empire by nearly 1,000 years. I give the South of the U.S. no more than fifty years before it degenerates into barbarism and anti-scientific superstition while trying to fight back a tide of Spanish-speakers that it exploited and abused for 150 years.

While I offer no solution, I do offer a political program:

In the face of this fate, I will not go quietly. If these lunatics are going to drag us into the pit with them, they are going to get an earful. We can start by saying that:

....Fundamentalism is a form of intellectual terrorism against the scientific method and the
....Enlightenment.

....The fundamentalist program is one of calculated cruelty. Suffering in place of
....assistance. Punishment in place of compassion. Suspicion in place of natural curiosity.
....The inculcation of a dread of life into children. The kind of other-worldly insanity that
....leaves mountains of dead and sends the bill to "god".

We must loudly and repeatedly denounce the religious and economic fundamentalists' programs in the clearest terms with the clearest of consciences. When you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to lose. In closing, I leave you with more words from Sam Harris:

"This world is simply ablaze with bad ideas. There are still places where people are put to death for imaginary crimes - like blasphemy - and where the totality of a child's education consists of his learning to recite from an ancient book of religious fiction. There are countries where women are denied almost every human liberty, except the liberty to breed. And yet, these same societies are quickly acquiring terrifying arsenals of advanced weaponry.

"It is time we realized that to presume knowledge where one has only pious hope is a species of evil. Wherever conviction grows in inverse proportion to its justification, we have lost the very basis of human cooperation. Where we have reasons for what we believe, we have no need of faith; where we have no reasons, we have lost both our connection to the world and to one another. People who harbor strong convictions without evidence belong at the margins of our societies, not in our halls of power. The only thing we should respect in a person's faith is his desire for a better life in this world; we need never have respected his certainty that one awaits him in the next.

Nothing is more sacred than the facts. No one, therefore, should win any points in our discourse for deluding himself."


- Sam Harris, “The End of Faith”



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. k&R for later reading n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. bedtime kick n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Avalon Sparks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Awesome!
I love it - excellent job!

I read the "Laws of Stupidity" at the link you provided also.

I agree with everything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. The Laws of Stupidity should be taught in high school n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-11-06 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Off to the Greatest Page for more critical response.
Lots of good ideas and work in there arendt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
neonplaque Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. thanks
This is a good essay, but I understand why you aren't totally satisified with it. You are touching on senstive subjects and rather complicated ones. "Religion", and critics of such, get branded with all sorts of hate labels. Obviously you appreciated Sam Harris's book, "The End of Faith", and I enjoyed his book as well (read twice front to back in the first week of owning it). He is able to present his arguement with limited direct attacks against those of who follow faith-based religions, but, in the end, even he doesn't have the answers to solve the problems.

In it's purest tense, fundamentalism is a strict adherence to a set of beliefs. I think you may want to clearly define within your essay what you mean by fundamentalism -- because, when it comes down to it, we are fundamentalists ourselves here with a common dream and common goal.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. The difference between us and fundies
First, thank you for responding; and for having read Sam Harris's flawed but
compelling book. What I say below is more to reinforce my point than to bash you.
Sorry, I haven't got the time to reject your point in a manner that still honors
your commitment.

----

> In it's purest tense, fundamentalism is a strict adherence to a set of beliefs.
> I think you may want to clearly define within your essay what you mean by fundamentalism --
>because, when it comes down to it, we are fundamentalists ourselves here
> with a common dream and common goal.

I think you missed my point. I tried to beat you over the head with it in the opening quote.
The difference is using vs not using the brain god gave you. This kind of moral equivalence
and self-doubt is what is killing the compassionate left.

Fundamentalists are PRE-rational. They do not reason. They do not come to things
with an open mind. They do not weigh evidence.

Fundamentalists are people who have checked out, sold their souls for a pile of beans.

There is a major difference between a dream/goal to be accomplished within the law, with
persuasionand a murderous belief.

I totally reject your claim of equivalence. (But I do not reject you. And that is the difference
between us and the fundies.)

----

arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
6. The creativity and thoughtful analysis put forth here at DU...
never ceases to amaze me. So many here care enough to think it all the way through, commit it to writing, polish it, and share it with the rest of us. As with much of the excellent work posted here, I don't usually agree with all of it, I do agree with most of it... but most importantly, it provides a great deal to think about that had not occurred to me before reading it. Excellent essay, arendt!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
7. Wake up kick n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raiden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
10. That was excellent reading! A big kick!
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
11. "nature or nurture?"
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 08:43 AM by skids
I'm sorry this just bugs me:



This difficulty could be due to nature or to nurture, but it is pretty well set in life by the time one reaches adulthood.



...for obvious reasons.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Sorry, but its not obvious to me. Please explain.
At some point in life, people are responsible
for their behavior. They can't blame their parents
or their environment when they are 50.

My point is that people may be guided to be
stupid or they may not be the brightest. But,
the old U.S. at least tried to expose everyone
to critical thinking.

Today, I would say its more nurture than nature.

But, what bugs you about saying that a person
who has been a lout all his life is "pretty well"
set in his ways by the time he is an adult?

arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. It's a mentality that leads to problems.

When one starts viewing "certain people" as being "the problem," and especially as being beyond redemption... or perhaps that's too religious sounding a word... beyond economical repair, it's the first step down the slippery slope which leads, eventually, to fascism.

This applies to all issues, of course, not just religion. Unfortunately it is also a human social instinct, stemming from the inferiority complex present in most. It's a base instinct -- to project our own failures and/or self-disappointment onto others in twisted ways, rationalizing them and using others as a contrast to make ourselves look better in our own mind's eye. It's in fact the very basis for almost all political discourse these days, and we are much poorer a society for it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I understand; but you propose a "Gandhi vs. the Nazis" scenario
Your level of compassion here is at the religious level. That is, it is based on what could be in an ideal world. (Think about that in the context of my essay.)

Unfortunately, America today can barely afford triage. When a lynch mob is coming towards you, you don't have the time to think of them as people that deserve another chance.

It is often claimed that if Gandhi had tried his approach under the Nazis, he would have been dead in a month. I suggest that your worries fall in the same category.

I respect your intention, but fascism arising from left wing disrespect for right wing mobs is not high on my list of moral threats to the Republic at this time.

arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
12. arendt, this is a gem
I am passing it on to every thinking skeptic I know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Arendt is ALWAYS a priceless gem!!!
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Nominated! n/t.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
14. front page kick
Anyone care to elaborate on faith-based versus
willpower-based?

arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Well, I think that's the hypothesis of your essay, right?
"Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed"

Where is the virtue in believing without evidence? And if it is virtuous to believe without question in one domain, then why would that not apply all other domains?

What I think your essay misses (recognizing that I may be completely misunderstanding the basis of your piece) is a recognition of the quite powerful faith-based experiences of a great many very intelligent people. To them that is all the "proof" they need, and it cannot be discounted out of hand by observers simply because it can't be examined or quantified. What might require an effort of will on the part of those who have not experienced faith, may come much more easily and naturally for those who have experienced it - which gets to the heart of why we must maintain a separation of matters pertaining to faith and government... and why it is utterly "stupid" (using the excellent definition outlined in the link you provided) to push matters of faith on anyone. In other words, what may be willpower-based for one may be faith-based for another, and they are two very different things.

The irony of all of this is that I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a great many people of faith unite with other moderates and progressives to save the republic from the "fundamentalists" (and by "fundamentalists" I mean the radicalized, right-wing religions that are steeped in nationalism) who continue to prop up the onslaught of insanity we face.

If I'm missing the point, I apologize. I thoroughly enjoyed your essay, but I read it through only once - last night - and it was VERY late.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Archetypal energy can be used for good or evil...

Faith-based experiences often turn their recipients into rabid killers, anti-Semites,
etc. Just because an experience is visceral, powerful, etc DOES NOT MEAN IT IS TRUE
OR RIGHT. That is why it is simply not sensible for societies to give a free pass to
everyone who claims such experiences.



"...what J. P. Stern calls the "dynamic fallacy" - the notion that energy, authenticity, and inwardness are enough (note: for genuine religion), and that one does not have to distinguish between types of energy or worry about the context in which it manifests itself - is at present making a very strong comeback in the industrialized nations. Evangelicals, cult followers, guru worshippers, and "channeling groupies" of all sorts are only concerned that archetypal energy be present, in politics and everywhere else; they spend very little time worrying about the likelihood that the unleashing of such energy in a mass technological society might easily result in fascism.

...it remains the case that the ultimate redemption of the West is the redemption of the need for redemption itself."


- Morris Berman, "Coming to Our Senses: Body and Spirit in the Hidden History of the West" (1989)


arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Agreed...
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 07:19 PM by Iowa
Archetypal energy can be used for both good and evil. And it certainly IS used for both.

And it is also true that a powerful experience does not make it right or true. Abusive cults... That powerful sense of belonging experienced by rabid nationalists (and KKK types)... The orgasmic self-righteousness experienced by every Freeper with a keyboard ;-)... Drug induced euphorias...

And then there are certain types of private religious experiences of learned, intelligent, rational, anti-authority, (and yes, even skeptical) people. Can their experiences be verified? No... such experiences are private and do not exist for the purpose of public scrutiny. Does that mean they aren't right or true? No. They are what they are... perhaps meaningful to the person who had the experience; probably meaningless to others. What matters is action. I don't care what someone believes. I do care about what their faith cause them to DO if it affects others. In other words, I think that faith can be either "intelligent" or "stupid" (using the definitions per the link you provided).

I leave open the possibility that there exists some element of truth, goodness, and beauty buried deep underneath all the layers of evil, chaos, and just plain nonsense that has glommed on to religion like a million barnacles. But that's just me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yes. Many distinguish between religion and spirituality...
there is an element of exclusion and coercion in most religions, although not all.
Spirituality usually refers to personal experience of the "numinous"; and I agree
that this is private to each individual.

But, this spirituality is sort of like Kant's unknowable inner world. Philosophy hit
a brick wall on being able to express the inexpressable. Its epitaph was written
by Wittgenstein: of that which we cannot speak, we must remain silent.

I have no problem with the idea that there is goodness and truth that is inaccessible
to consciousness. It is implicit in the philosophers I mentioned above. It is one
example of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem for logical systems. It is an example
of "Descartes' Error" as discussed by the neurologist Antonio Damasio.

In the 20th century, we discovered and proved the limits of formal logic and conscious
thought. The confusion/breakdown engendered by hitting those limits simultaneously
de-motivated the secularists and emboldened the lunatics. The correct course for
society would have been to re-define logic and consciousness and popularize those
new results; but that was too difficult. So, instead of moving beyond consciousneess;
we regressed to the pre-consciousness of fundamentalism.

arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. front page kick n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. Run a quick spellcheck...
nothing ruins a good argument for me than finding "mascarading" in it. Spellcheck is your friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Picky, picky, picky...got any substantive comments? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent essay
And thanks for bringing up the Basic Laws of Human Stupidity by by Carlo M. Cipolla - very interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
26. a couple things
Edited on Wed Apr-12-06 07:55 PM by bloom
One - about Fundamentalists.

I'm not particularly rooting for Fundamentalism - but after having read "What's the Matter with Kansas" - I'm inclined to keep in mind that Fundamentalists of the 1890's or so (at least in Kansas) were socialists and leaders even of the progressive movement. SO I don't think we would have give up on people's religions entirely. There may be more that we could do if we appealed to the progressive possibilities of religions - than to attack them entirely.


Two - you wrote:
"What goes for women, goes triple for the other usual-suspect minorities that are always the whipping boys of ignorant, male authoritarianism: gays, darkies, Jews, and intellectuals..."

I think if you considered the rape statistics and battered women statistics and compared them to statistics showing violence done against "gays, darkies, Jews, and intellectuals" because they were "gays, darkies, Jews, and intellectuals" - you would see that a lot more violence is done against women because they are women than against those other groups because they are what they are. And also if you considered salary discrepancies, etc. And hateful speech. And objectification.

-------

But it is a good essay :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Good points...
Re: the usual suspects - fundamentalists definitely hate women more than any other minority.
That is because they have been taught to repress sexuality, and it comes out as hatred.

In writing the essay, though, I did not want to give offense to the other minorities also under
attack by the fundies. So, I have no argument with your point. Fundies do hate women more.

Re: fundamentalism - I will have to re-check Tom Frank's book; but were the 1890s Kansans
really fundies? Had fundamentalism been codified yet? I want to be make a very clear distinction
about all religions vs. fundamentalisms.

Let me make an analogy: spirituality is like science; and religion is like technology. Like science,
spirituality is value-free. It is one person's direct experience of the numinous. But religion is not
value-free. In fact it strives to impose its values on the world. But that can be done correctly or
incorrectly. To continue the analogy: consider the Baptists as "dual-use religious technology".
There actually are progressive Baptists, although they have been driven out of the fundamentalist-
dominated Southern Baptist Convention. I would say that Buddhism is beneficial religious tech.
But fundamentalism is the nuclear weapons technology of religion. It is a harmful application of
religious technology.

Well, that analogy ought to have offended just about everyone.

arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-12-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. 1890's Kansas Fundies
see pages 15 & 16, 32 & 33 - and he again talks of Bryan on pg.206.

Seems he made the point in there somewhere that Bryan was concerned about the idea "survival of the fittest" as an immoral concept (antithesis to the New Testament - of course the NT was all about communism) and that that was what he was concerned about. As if the concept of evolution would lead people more away from socialist ideas.


I think a lot of "religions" start out more spiritual and then get more hierarchical and concerned about laws and rules and other nonsense. Even denominations can go through that. So it wouldn't surprise me if the Fundamentalists started out as more idealistic in the 1800's and than become more obsessed with rules later.

And I think it's the hierarchical aspect of religion that works against women - power is accumulated and wielded against others to get more power, etc. Women and outsiders get marginalized. In some religions you at least get the sense that humility (and less power) is supposed to be valued. That is why it is so horrible to have religion welded to nationalism - and esp. the military. You end up with more of a glorification of power and death than you would have had otherwise. Religious power + state power = BushCo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Religon+State Power+Torture = Medievalism
Morris Berman's latest book, "Dark Ages America", makes this equation.
We are headed back to religious obscurantism.

He basically argues that America is getting the government its people
want. He argues that individualism has reached toxic proportions and
destroyed what little community ever existed in a nation of immigrants
constantly on the move, driven only by making a quick buck.

Not a fun read. And while his review of American foreign policy really
breaks no new ground, his review of the domestic policy that drives
the foreign has some good points. He reviews Kunstler's arguments
about the automobile/suburb culture and its emptiness.

But, his bottom line is that you can look at the mental state of most Americans
and know the country is screwed beyond repair. People are functionally
illiterate. They know nothing about history and they do not care that they
know nothing. When Bush is more electable than Kerry because people
identify with Bush's loser characteristics and are put off by Kerry's brains
and achievements, you know democracy has become mob rule.

I can only concur.

arendt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
haab Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-13-06 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. fantastic
loved your assay.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC