Why can't the pro illegal immigration crowd understand this?

[Elwood P Dowd]

It's real simple, so here goes.......one more time......

With outsourcing, trade deals, and downsizing, job numbers in the private sector are not growing. The economy has to create 2 million jobs a year just to keep up with population growth, and we haven't been anywhere near that figure for several years. Were it not for the health care industry, there would be negative job growth in the private sector the past 5 years. There are less than 100 million jobs in this country that are immune to outsourcing or imported labor. The problem is only going to get worse. Increasing the labor supply during a time of decreasing labor demand means real wages will continue to fall, and long-term unemployment/underemployment will continue to rise. That's problem number one.

The housing bubble is the only thing propping up the economy. Most of our GDP growth is through consumer spending, and the biggest spending item is housing. When the bubble bursts, the economy is going into recession. That's problem number two.

So here we are in a situation where we can't even create enough jobs for our own citizens. Here we are facing the end of the housing bubble and the possibility of a job-busting recession. Here we are with the middle class and working poor losing ground because of stagnant wages and increasing inflation. With all of this staring us in the face, we still have posters on this board who want to increase the supply of labor when it's obvious the demand for labor is falling. Why do so many here have so much trouble understanding something so simple?

These are the facts, and all the happy talk and emotional responses and love for the poor illegals will not change reality.

[Horse with no Name]

1. How many of these types of threads are you going to start?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=900953&mesg_id=900953

[Elwood P Dowd]

2. Since many of you fail to grasp the severity of the the economic

situation, I decided to try one last time to clarify the issue. You obviously could care less and would prefer to aggravate an already serious problem.

[Horse with no Name]

5. lol

Carry on. You need some torches or pitchforks or anything?

[beam me up scottie]

64. ROFLMAO!!!

:rofl:

[shamrock]

13. I agree with you Elwood P. Dowd

You are absolutely correct.

[Krist]

77. One of the few Sane DUers around

Count me in your support bro..

[beam me up scottie]

81. You think?

Do sane DUers describe immigrants as

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

?

Or just the bigoted ones?

[Krist]

95. wow ! you didnt use the F-word in this one !

... exhibiting a lot of "self-control" over there, I see ;)

Firstly, they are illegals. Not general immigrants as such.

Secondly, what I said is true, harsh.. but true. They are illiterate and they follow illegal means do whatever it takes to come here.

Whats sad here is that people like you end up supporting the rights of illegals who break the law over legals who take the trouble of respecting the laws of our country.

[beam me up scottie]

98. They are illiterate? All of them?

Wow, you learned how to use the spell check this time.

For someone who is barely coherent, you sure place a lot of importance on writing skills.

[cynatnite]

102. What's sad here is seeing some DUer's not mention...

one word about the corporations or businesses hiring these people. It's blame the illegal immigrants because they want a better life.

You're blaming my father and his mother for wanting a better life because they're illegal and a drain on the US. One look at my face and I guarantee you wouldn't even think of it. The color of my skin would prevent you from saying a word.

[beam me up scottie]

104. Spot on.

Whenever the bigots at work start their ranting about immigrants, I remind them that my mother was an immigrant.

Their reply?

Oh, but that's different.

Welcome to Amerikkka.

[cynatnite]

108. I was told that several times when I mentioned my family

They said 'that's different'.

Anyone who denies it has never experienced it.

[beam me up scottie]

123. They're not even trying to deny it anymore.

Check out these statements just in this thread:

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

By illegal immigrants, they mean stupid Mexican criminals.

Not exactly subtle, is it?

[liberalpress]

358. Actually..

... unles you can trace your lineage to someone running barefoot over the countryside with a loincloth over his package... we're ALL illegal immigrants!

[Bake]

382. But did she come here legally, or illegally?

THAT'S the question. I don't think anybody here is knocking legal immigration.

Bake

[Krist]

161. Yes, I wont hurt you..

People who think its a race issue are seriously mistaken.

Even if the Illegals are from Canada, Ireland, China or Nigeria, the anti-illegal sentiment wont change.

As long as illegals keep usurping the rights of legal immigrants (who wait 10-15 years and follow every procedure in the book to acquire citizenship) as well as native Americans (Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Indians), people will only feel compelled to oppose them.

Its a natural consequence of human condition. You feel compelled to oppose injustice, provided you are immune from ideological brainwashing.

[cynatnite]

170. It is race when it's okay for my father, my grandmother and me to be here

but not anyone from south of the border.

I've been told it's okay for me, my father and grandmother to be here illegally. Some repukes want to take the rights of babies of illegals away which is why I include myself.

My father and grandmother both worked, paid taxes, paid their bills, went to mass and followed the laws of this country. They escaped from a country filled with abject poverty and under the threat of the USSR. They came here illegally for a better life.

When it's okay for them to be here, but not those from south of the border that is racist.

Question: How do illegals usurp the rights of legal immigrants? How in the blue blazes do they usurp the rights of Native Americans???

Oh, and :wtf: ideological brainwashing???? Something I don't normally read at DU of all places. Very curious.

[Bassic]

338. If the illegals were white anglo saxons from Canada

(Which is more than highly unlikely), you can bet that it wouldn't cause this much trouble.

It is very much a race issue. You may choose to blind yourself to it, but keep it in the back of your mind at least.

[Roxy66]

363. I cant think of anyone I work with that is from from Canada n/t

[Bassic]

364. That's because most of us stay put.

Unlike Mexicans, we have a very comfortable standard of living.

[KurtNYC]

370. I knew a Canadian who was here working illegally

He was anglo saxon and that really didn't matter to the INS. They deported him for overstaying a tourist visa. I'm not saying race doesn't matter way too much to way too many people, only that race wasn't a factor in his deportation back to Toronto.

[Bassic]

415. No, it won't matter to the INS, but the general population's attitude

is much different.

[LostinVA]

416. You got it, Bassic

And I'm just loving how the same people start these threads and repeat their "illiterate"... "illegals" cant over and over again. Never thought I'd live to see such Bircher rhetoric on DU.

[Bassic]

417. On a forum this big,

There's bound to be some people with wierd (to me anway, and so this is not really a value judgement) opinions I guess. I've never liked intolerance in any of it's forms, so an issue like this one makes me more vocal.

[LostinVA]

418. Me too

I've read enough of your posts to know we generally jibe on most things.

[Bassic]

419. Yes, I've also noticed that.

It's always nice to know. :hi:

[Virginian]

346. self delete

The post ended too far from the one it was responding to.

[beam me up scottie]

126. Your portrayal of them as stupid Mexican criminals is what's sad.

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

And by sad, I mean revolting.

[Bluebear]

265. What about George W. Bush's respect for THE LAWWWWWW

Since you are so hot and bothered about respecting the laws of our country, how about illegally spying on your own people? Charge him with that THEN get back to me about The Law.

[beam me up scottie]

269. Yay!!!

Back up has arrived!!!

Am I ever glad to see YOU, BB! :hug:

Cyanite and I thought we were going to have work overtime.

[Bluebear]

272. Talk about falling for the Republican's bullshit immigration "emergency"

Chimpolini had five fucking years to address this. Why the big crisis all of a sudden? Oh yeah, poll numbers down, time to go after them homos and wetbacks.

I refuse to even entertain the aspect of a person being "illegal" so long as the head executive of this country acts illegally.

Also. How many threads are needed to "educate" us on this issue?

You're welcome! :hug:

[cynatnite]

271. My hero!

:loveya:

[Bluebear]

274. Just doin' my job, ma'am.

:hug:

[cynatnite]

277. I started humming the theme to mighty mouse :) n/t

[Bluebear]

284. And ANOTHER thing! Regarding the so-called "PRO ILLEGAL" crowd

that the OP refers to.... it sounds like calling someone who is pro-choice "pro abortion". Like we encourage and take glee at the "illegal" immigrants 'wading across the Rio Grande'.

The topic may need addressing, but certainly not in this fashion, and CERTAINLY not by this President. If he can't round up a quarter million people in New Orleans who need evacuating to save their lives, I hardly think he is the man for the job of "rounding up" 12 million people.

FOLLOW THE MOP AND BROOM, Republicans. They lead to "illegal" workers at mucho corporations. Start with fining the business and forcing them to pay people a decent wage, THEN let's talk about someone who wants to pick some lettuce under the hot Texas sun and make a better life for himself.

:fume:

[cynatnite]

293. If I wasn't a happily married woman...

:loveya:

Well said!

[countryjake]

295. Bravo!

Well said!

We had a couple of Haitians who were relocated from NOLA after Katrina and they were saying the same exact thing. But the threat is still there, due to that bill passed by the House in Dec., so many many immigrants are scared now and worrying about their status and the implications of this move by the Republicans.

[beam me up scottie]

325. Or you, countryjake.

I should have specified that I meant the "less evolved" males of the species were the ones who oinked.

[beam me up scottie]

322. You rock, BB.

I hope you know I didn't mean you when I referred to the oinking of the male of the species!

[Elwood P Dowd]

97. I have never posted any such thing

Why are telling an untruth about me?

I am a bigot for posting some economic facts? I have never, ever, in three years on DU, been accused of such crap.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Krist]

110. lol..

I just got my PhD in Anthropology, a few months back from Rice.

What are your quals, Mr. Erudite ?

[beam me up scottie]

113. Degrees from Bob Jones University and the Discovery Institute don't count.

Besides, you obviously flunked high school English.

Hell, you just learned how to use spell check.

And you claim immigrants are illiterate.:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

130. Did I say you did?

I was replying to the poster who posted these statements:

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

203. !

:thumbsup:

[IndyJones]

414. Count me in, too.

[Marie26]

35. Do you believe anyone is going

to change their minds at this point?

[Elwood P Dowd]

57. It's obvious you care more about immigrants than US citizens

and you also appear totally oblivious to the economic situation.

[Marie26]

61. Thanks for the insult.

You've now totally convinced me of your point of view! How could I not have seen it before?? It took your factual, insightful, rational debating skills for me to see the light, obviously. I said nothing against you, or your precious agenda. Why did you feel the need to insult me personally?

[Elwood P Dowd]

63. I'm just pointing out the facts. What facts have you contributed?

We're facing a real economic crisis, and many here just want to bury their heads and sing happy tunes. The illegal immigrants will get caught up in this mess when the housing bubble bursts. What happens then?

[Marie26]

65. What facts, exactly?

Let me explain to you what facts are. Facts are when you quote statistics, link articles, provide information. All you did was insult me & call me names for no reason. Those are not facts, those are the insults that someone resorts to when they do not have facts. What facts did you provide in your reply? Zero.

[Elwood P Dowd]

67. My original post contains plenty of facts

You attacked my original post, so back it up with facts proving me wrong.

[Marie26]

76. Wrong - you attacked me.

I did not attack your original post in any way. I have dropped out of the immigration debate because I feel neither side will convince the other at this point. So, I asked if it is possible that people will change their minds in an issue where each side is so entrenched. To respond to my post, you could've said "no, most people have their minds set" or "yes, I believe that people can change their minds if they learn X, or there's still room for common ground." You did neither. Instead, you chose to attack me personally & make assumptions of what I do & do not care about; or what I am or am not aware of. You didn't respond to my post; you didn't seem to understand my post, and chose to attack me instead. Good show!

[file83]

398. LOL - looks like you could use one of these....

DU FLAME SUIT!!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

88. You've supplied quite a few UNDOCUMENTED comments....

...based primarily on your own personal beliefs. If you had supplied some sources for your remarks in your original post you would have placed yourself in a stronger position.

As it is now, based on your rather interesting remarks to other posters, you've got an uphill climb to convince others even if you supplied factual back-up to your remarks.

[Elwood P Dowd]

107. It's common knowledge about the job creation figures

They have been posted here hundreds of times. You have to create 2 million jobs a year to keep up with population increases. The economy is not creating that many jobs and hasn't for several years. The private sector job creation has been negative except for health care. How many times does it have to be posted and linked? Oh, only if it doesn't fit your opinions on illegal immigration. The supply and demand stuff is just basic economics. Read Thom Hartmann's article.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marie26]

375. I invite you to read the study

I have posted below. North Carolina has received a large number of Hispanic immigrants, both documented and undocumented. This year, UNC undertook one of the most comprehensive studies ever done on the impact immigrants have on the state's economy. On balance, the study found that immigrants contribute immensely to the state's tax base, business growth & economic prosperity. The study also notes the issues immigration can pose in regards to education, health care & gov. benefits. It is not ideological-driven propaganda, but an honest look at the multi-faceted issues that immigration raises. In contrast to the the doom & gloom you cite (w/o cites), the study concludes that immigrants have contributed immensely (over $9 billion dollars)
to the state's economy.

http://www.kenan-flagler.unc.edu/ki/reports/2006_HispanicStudy/

By the way, the article you linked in the post above does not corroborate any of the statistics you're reciting about "2 million jobs," "negative private sector job growth except health care," etc. Where are you getting these statistics from? If these numbers really are "common knowledge," it shouldn't be too difficult to find a source for them. For that matter, where are you getting the information that you "cite" in the OP? (only 100 million jobs immune to outsourcing, housing bubble about to burst, job-busting recession coming, etc.) Your original post also does not refer to any facts or articles to support your theory. If you want to convince people, it helps to have more than speculation to prove your case. Links would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[RagingInMiami]

138. "You're either with us or against us"

Is that what you're trying to say?

[kurth]

43. Some people really don't give a shit about poor American natives

or the environment.

Face it, people, the Mexican overpopulation is not our problem.

[Lerkfish]

352. without revealing how I feel on the issue, I find your strategy unsound.

mere repetition will not an argument make.
You seem to be upset that people disagree with you.
I, on the other hand, RECOGNIZE this as the Rove Wedge Issue strategy. By very definition, a wedge issue is the kind on which people are split on how they feel about it.
Don't get spun by the tactic.

just my two cents.

[IndyJones]

413. People don't want to recognize reality because it's not impacting them

personally yet.

[QC]

11. Better to start threads connecting automobile accidents

to church/state separation, I guess.

[Horse with no Name]

20. Perhaps if I started one every 24 hours it might be

a little overdone don't you think?
By the way--I linked his thread. Do you have a link to what you speak of?
Oh wait--I deleted that thread because my point was misunderstood. If you had only paid attention, you would have read that. However, I suspect much wasn't lost on "other sites", was it?

[QC]

26. True, I paid the thread no attention after reading that zany

original post. Life's too short to waste time with something like that.

[Horse with no Name]

29. Touche'.

I know the feeling from reading your posts.

[QC]

30. I know you are, but what am I?

Now I see why you are the most feared debater on the playground!

[Deja Q]

362. Pardon me, I've seen far more pro-guest-worker posts than reality checks.

And for once I don't care if someone is repeating the same thing. It NEEDS to be said.

And not all bases within the reality check realm are being said too.

[beam me up scottie]

3. When did you stop beating your wife?

:eyes:

[ContraBass Black]

22. Just this morning!

:D

[beam me up scottie]

33. well...

just don't do it again, 'kay?

[ContraBass Black]

53. I don't think it will be a problem, since I've never been married.

Hey, wait a minute...

[beam me up scottie]

59. ROFLMAO!

[shamrock]

4. delete

[madeline_con]

6. Allow me to add...

that not all jobs held by (I'll use the term) undocumented workers are things "Americans won't do".

[nofurylike]

7. you know, i missed it, but what american indian tribe are you

a descendant of, again?

[nofurylike]

25. 'cause ain't none other of us who're "legal" immigrants here - though

some were abducted to here.

you the one to draw the line, ah?

[cheezus]

8. how about outlawing babies?

All of these new people entering the USA every day -- and not a one of them even able to produce anything! Just sucking at the public heath and education systems.

[beam me up scottie]

47. Yeah!

And clowns!

I've always hated those fuckers.

:P

[Virginian]

349. Sounds like a plan. I think you may just have something.

Outlaw all births; sterilize all citizens. Maintain the population numbers through immigration only. No one under the age of 18 allowed to enter the country.
No tax supported schools, none needed. Any education a person needed, they got before they came here.

No more stupid teen pranks. No teen gangs. No teen pregnancy.

No more babies crying in resturants. No more child abuse. No more Amber alerts.

Family friendly would mean adult families.

[smirkymonkey]

399. Now there's an idea I can get on board with!

Goddamn lazy, good-for-nothing babies!

[RagingInMiami]

9. The pro-immigration crowd has most likely read history books

And learned that these same arguments have been made with every single immigrant group throughout history.

And the pro-immigration crowd has also seen that despite these warnings and despite the continuing arrival of immigrant gruops, things ended up working themselves out. In fact, the economy and the country prospered each time.

So the pro-immigration crowd is not as fearful of these same old arguments being handed down from generation to generation.

[Elwood P Dowd]

12. This is 2006 - not 1906.

Huge difference.

[RagingInMiami]

14. Right

9/11 changed everything.

[Erika]

18. O'Reilly tried to use your same reasoning tonight

lol

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

393. You Are Right. Huge Difference. By Now We Should Know Better,

and not have to repeat 100 year old alarmist decrees that were proven to be farcical. One would think we'd have moved forward past that tired mentality by now no? :shrug:

[Erika]

15. Great post n/t

[GirlinContempt]

16. I LOVE YOUR SIG LINE

:loveya:

[RagingInMiami]

27. Did you click on the link?

[GirlinContempt]

37. Yeah, thats what I love about it

[RagingInMiami]

39. It is so funny

It makes me bust out laughing each time.

[GirlinContempt]

41. It makes me laugh

and throw up a little in my mouth, ya know?

This shit is sick.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Many of the Pro-immigration crowd

have parents who were immigrants and aren't as susceptible to fear and paranoia.

:thumbsup:

[saltpoint]

34. I've got both thumbs up on that point, beam me up scottie.

Hey! Haven't seen you in such a long time. Awfully nice to encounter you here tonight.

I hope things are going your way.

All good wishes.

[beam me up scottie]

38. I was just thinking about you the other day

when I welcomed someone into DU in the Religion forum.
You were very kind and I never forgot it.

I'm well, thanks, I hope you and yours are in the pink.:)

[saltpoint]

50. Those are kind words, and I thank you. Yes -- things are ok

with me.

(I wish we had a different president, though!)

Look forward to seeing yhou around these parts again.

[Marie26]

353. Or grandparents

The division I've noticed isn't so much between Republicans & Democrats, but 1st-4th generation decendants of immigrants & everyone else.

[Krist]

31. Will U beat up all Germans you meet for their great-granfathers being nazi

Blaming current generation of Americans for actions of their ancestors is utterly disgusting and RACIST.

[RagingInMiami]

46. What the hell are you talking about?

[beam me up scottie]

49. I was afraid to ask.

[Krist]

82. Historical guilt is meaningless..

What some dead white guys did to American Indians, Mexicans is none of our business now in this illegal immigration debate.

[RagingInMiami]

85. History is not meaningless

You have to know where we have been in order to know where we are headed.

[Krist]

208. selective historical guilt is meaningless..

If your argument is, you Americans owe us something because your ancestors wronged our ancestors, try seeking professional help please.

Also, try penalizing the following communities around the world for the actions of someone's ancestors on some others.

Spanish- Inquisition
German- Nazism
Italian-Fascism
Chinese-Maoist murders
Indian-Caste system
Cambodia-Pol Pot's massacres
Russian-Stalinist oppression
Israel- Palestinian massacres
Lebanon-Massacres of Christians
Iran- Massacres of zoroastrians
Rwanada- Massacres of Tutsis

etcetera, cetera, etc.

[RagingInMiami]

214. Who is talking about "historical guilt"

I was talking about history repeating itself. Go back and read the fucking post.

[Erika]

93. No, we have to address the sins of the oppressed

especially if we profited. We did a pretty thorough job of genocide on the American Indians. We turned blacks into slaves.

Let us learn.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

121. Puns aren't the only thing you're sucking, bubba!

:rofl:

[Erika]

128. Yes, I have a book where my great grandmother fed Indians

who were starving in the winter after being chased off their lands.

You must think it is funny ha ha times.

[Krist]

166. Indeed you can impress a lot of American public

By trying to impose guilt on them that they are all RACIST because their distant ancestors did something lousy to some distant ancestors of Mexicans.

BTW, ever wonder why Dems have lost the south ?

[beam me up scottie]

168. The Mexicans are responsible for the Dems losing the south?

Wow, and here I thought it was the blacks, godless commies and homos.

I must remember to send in my Klan dues so I don't miss these bulletins.

[Judi Lynn]

207. I'll offer a link you may want to ponder:

A RACIST PARTY WITH A RACIST STRATEGY: THE REPUBLICANS

When President Johnson helped pass Civil Rights legislation in the 1960s he commented that: "Well, there goes the South." He meant, of course, that now the South would become Republican as they now saw the Democrats as the party standing up for the blacks.
(snip/...)

http://www.vernonjohns.org/rosemary1246/repubs.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The racist Democrats who were living in the South, called "Dixiecrats" fled the party and joined the Republicans.
It's been discussed widely at D.U.

It's hard to tell what your meaning is, but I've offered some clarification.

[High Plains]

381. Because the Republicans yelled "nigger"?

[GirlinContempt]

54. Whaaaaaa?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

125. I'm beginning to believe that we have a failure to communicate....

...on a very broad and deep level.

[beam me up scottie]

127. I don't think that word means

what you think it means!

:evilgrin:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

131. I've been cautioned recently about being too rough on some....

...of the more "interesting" posters, so I'm trying very hard to be as polite as I can be.

No, really! Honest!

:rofl:

[beam me up scottie]

136. This late in the game, I don't care.

Our posts always get deleted anyway, why not have some fun?

[Marie26]

351. Good luck! nt

[One_of_8]

421. Huh?

???

[mzmolly]

196. Does the word "illegal" in the OP fail you?

Way to change the terms of the debate.

[RagingInMiami]

211. The word "illegal" doesn't bother me

When I know they are coming here to make an honest living.

When the hell did everyone on DU become such prudes about the law?

We have people here who openly admit to smoking marijuana, pirating music and buying meds from Canada, but nobody gives them shit about it being "illegal".

How hypocritical.

[Zorra]

10. Maybe, sometimes, liberals are too goodhearted for their own good?nt

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Did you really just post that?

Why should some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law should have precedence over them

Thank you for putting a face on the anti-immigration movement.

And it's just as fucking ugly as I suspected.

[Krist]

91. Look who's talking..

A person who uses the F word is much worse than a person who calls illiterates as "illiterate".

[beam me up scottie]

92. " A person who uses the F word" is worse than a bigot ???

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Krist]

105. Retarded thinking reinforced by rigorous ideologies

... same disease exists in left as it does in right.

They accuse everyone of being traitorous, you accuse everyone of bigotry.

Hows that working out for you ?

[beam me up scottie]

120. Very well when the bigots portray immigrants as stupid criminals.

And Mexican ones at that.

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

Statements like that leave little doubt about whose thinking is retarded.

[Erika]

133. Those posts are denigrating and beyond decency

Blokes? My God.

[beam me up scottie]

135. And MY post got deleted, lol!

Looks like the stench of xenophobia is drawing flies.

[martymar64]

377. If the shoe fits

Of course you don't address the fact that it is businesses hiring illegals that drives the immigration. Give them stiff fines and jail time and watch the immigration stop.

Of course, you'd rather rant about Mexicans . . .

[smirkymonkey]

400. You have a point.

Whenever anyone doesn't tow the far-left party line, the usual suspects cry bigotry rather than deal logically with the issue at hand. I agree that some people are anti-illegal immigration simply due to bigotry. Others clearly see the grave economic implications of it.

Personally, I blame the corporations who are taking advantage of the situation and driving us ALL down into the gutter. I think that the "bigotry-who will/will not do certian jobs-pitting legals against illegals" take on the sitution is nothing more than a red herring, and really kind of pointless. The problem is not the workers, it is the exploiters.

[GirlinContempt]

72. Yeah, fair.

http://www.gse.harvard.edu/~t656_web/peace/Articles_Spring_2004/Pfannl_Emilia_Poverty_violence_Brazil_slums.htm

It's so 'fair' that I had kids BEGGING me not to leave them in slums. It's so 'fair' that people are starving to death in the streets. It's so 'fair' that we have created conditions that drive people to risk their lives to escape them.

Don't talk about fair, it's fucking ridiculous.

[swag]

83. Two bits

What do people think they are gaining (or protecting) by sealing off their precious borders?

I was so happy to see the thousands of Mexican-Americans marching through Portland yesterday.

"Their people" lived in these parts before "my people" ever did.

From the history and justice perspective, objection to immigration liberalization in the US is ludicrous.

And from the economic standpoint, with the demographic timebomb looming in the US and the boomers set to start retiring in 2 years, the USA is going to be starving for workers and taxpayers within the space of a decade, outsourcing notwithstanding.

And from the political standpoint, Ruy Teixeira and others (and history) have indicated beneficial (read: liberal and livable) outcomes for US society are going to be the inevitable result of liberalized immigration policies.

Really, go cry to the Nez Perce.

[Igel]

359. '"Their" people never realized they were "theirs"', of

course.

Reading current political and cultural affinities back into the past is a pernicious practice. Had members of most of the tribes down in Mexico/Central America immigrated to Coos or Yakima territory in numbers large enough to be counted as a clan, there probably would have been warfare. Mexica, Tzotzil, Mixtec, etc. were no more "Indian" or "Native American" or "First Peoples" to the Coos and Skagit than, oh, the Goths were "European" to those living along the Tiber or the Franks were to the dwellers in Gaul.

The descendents of the Tonino and Lushootseed may see things differently--I don't know that anybody's actually asked a large enough group of them for their opinions--but that hardly alters their ancestors' thinking or the facts on the ground in 1491.

[NorCalDem]

87. These people aren't breaking the law

they're looking for work wherever they can get it.

George W. Bush, on the other hand...

Tom Delay, on the other hand...

Enron execs, on the other hand...

Let's be careful about who calls whom a criminal :D


What the Migraphobia video, it's educational :bounce:

[Erika]

96. People who truly care for their family takes the risks

and forges on. Your remark about legal immigrants not empathizing with illegals is insane. Post otherwise.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

129. You believe yourself to be a "moderate"??? Whoa!!!......

...I think you may be a little to the right of Hitler. The last time I read a history book, he wasn't described as a "moderate".

[beam me up scottie]

132. Don't talk to the lord like that.

He might smite you!

Is the user name "God" taken yet?

[Krist]

147. The "wrath" of Krist

[beam me up scottie]

151. Cute pictures don't fool anyone.

I won't forget what you said about Mexican immigrants.

[Bluebear]

300. Just to make your future endeavours more authentic:

1. Rarely does someone here call someone a "lib".

2. When you put that you are located in Texas in your profile, don't later claim you are in Ohio.

3. Complaining about people who wade through rivers, are illiterate and "non-white" isn't exactly tres sensitive. That's FRENCH by the way.

4. The snooty, snappy comebacks you have offered aren't attractive. And;

5. Just curious, what is "Krist" anyhow, some weird morph of Frist and Christ?

[beam me up scottie]

327. Frist and Christ!

Perfect!

I'm picturing a demented Gollum-like creature stroking things and calling them "My Precious".

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

407. Or maybe short for Krist-inn, or something like that...

[Warren Stupidity]

341. "libs" "Dems" hmmmm....

"Many moderates like me" - I call bullshit. Nice try though.

[High Plains]

379. Parasites?

You just called these hard-working people parasites.

And just who the fuck are you?

[ecstatic]

394. You hit the nail on the head-- I'm a realist Liberal

But so many liberals are idealistic, and propose things that just can NEVER be or are just not practical. There are people waiting to enter this country LEGALLY from all over the globe. We MUST do something about the hundreds of thousands of people cheating their way in.

[Jigarotta]

17. the reality is you are being played like the fiddle they expect.

the point is wages and standard of living - corps don't want to pay fair wages but want their standard of living to go up up up every year, when minimum wage is stagnated for how many years?

people are not the enemy, those cocksucking bloodsucking 'corporate' citisens are.

[Elwood P Dowd]

28. As long as the corps and business owners have an excess supply

of labor, they will keep doing what you say. It's all about supply and demand, and the supply keeps going up with population increases. Illegal immigration just makes it worse.

[Jigarotta]

48. lax labour laws is what makes it worse.

and no real punishment for businesses who are caught at hiring illegals at subwages.

but the corps makes the laws, so what the hey. Pugs and Dems look askance like June Taylor dancers in unison choreography.

the problem is not people who want to make a living, the problem is the very few who make a living off us borderless all. We are all Mexicans, we are all Palestinians.

[cssmall]

19. You are pointedly blind.

It is amazing to me that you cannot see the proverbial forests from the trees on this issue. Who exactly is to blame for all these ills that you list? Do we blame the workers that stitch Nike brand shoes in Indonesia? Do we blame the Latinos that comes to this country to make a better life for themselves? Do we blame John or Jane Public for being downsized for not being marketable enough.

I saw an argument on why Arkansas should not raise its minimum wage: teenagers are irresponsible and don't deserve it and if adult workers have failed to make themselves marketable for jobs above minimum wage, why do they deserve it at all? You are making the same bullshit, emotional argument that you accuse others of making yourself!

It is not the fault of the worker, nor the "illegal", it is the corporations that "contract" and support this through implied consent to hire work that is cheaper than otherwise, instead of paying based on merits. Oh, and about your argument, we did some pretty nice shit to the Native Americans and they were here first, I wonder if they felt the same way.

Understand this, America will not understand until its people are drinking poor water and digging in garbage for food. You have proven that again with this drivel of a post: blame the people, not the complicit companies that are hitting new heights in regard to their earnings EVERY year.

[Krist]

23. Some DUers are just too kind & Christian

That they encourage illegal immigration to masochistically destroy their own demographies... its something no sane country on this planet (including Liberal havens of France and Canada) would ever do.

[beam me up scottie]

32. What the fuck does kindness have to do with being a christian?

You are confusing religion with morality, something the Fred Phelps of the world love to do.

[Krist]

73. Some DUers are just too kind & atheist..

lol.... whatever makes you get the point.

[beam me up scottie]

84. I got the point. Bigots come in all stripes.

But they can't hide them for long.

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

[Erika]

75. Can you be too kind and too Christian?

Where are you coming from?

[Krist]

116. From Ohio

[cynatnite]

134. Your profile says TX n/t

[Krist]

148. tsk..tsk... how unfamiliar are we with light banter ;)

[beam me up scottie]

150. Light banter?

What kind of liberal considers human rights to be "light banter".

[cynatnite]

153. Riiiggghhhtttt

:eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

344. What does "demographies" mean to you?

Races? Ethnic Groups? Some French have, alas, been exhibiting xenophobia.

Canada has quite a few immigrants. (The OP does NOT distinguish between legal & illegal.) And I know for a fact that not all immigrating to Canada are lily white.

If you're concerned about preserving the USA's WASP bloodlines--you are far too late.

[Ms. Clio]

391. "Liberal havens of France and Canada"

:rofl:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

408. 'the liberal havens of France and Canada'--I think we are getting closer

to the issue, LOL

[saltpoint]

24. If this question were really simple, hundreds of thousands of human

beings wouldn't be flooding the nation's streets demanding acknowledgment, affirmation, and reform.

The initial legislation, largely GOP in origin, would have made undocumented men and women felons. That struck me as dismissive, barbaric bullshit, and still does. Frist and Hastert, never quick on their feet, at last have been shamed into modifying the legislation. It certainly took them long enough.

I salute the Catholic Church and related charities for insisting that all people deserve health care and public education, not to mention the dignity of their personhood.

The solution some have offered to throw an estimated 12 million undocumented people into the slammer is a steaming pile of bullshit. It is not only heartlessly cruel but logistically impossible. Maybe Lou Dobbs will offer to pay for their institutionalization out of his CNN paycheck.

There's nothing real simple about this question. That's why the entire nation is up in arms trying to resolve it.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Haven't you heard?

Those protests were all just a Rovian distraction. :sarcasm:

[saltpoint]

52. : )

[kurth]

36. Notice how illegals are being referred to as "immigrants" - as in regular

legal immigrants.

You don't need to define ILLEGAL.

[shamrock]

42. I may be wrong about this....

but isn't it considered fraud to falsify a social security number? And how many other documents are being falsified? just sayin'

[kurth]

60. But how many have been prosecuted for using "false" S/S numbers?

My guess is ZERO - of the 12 million illegals currently living in this country and using other people's numbers.

[Krist]

68. Yeup.. I too noticed that

Who cares about those guys who take medical tests - to prove they dont have contageous diseases, verbal tests- to prove their english fluency, written tests - to prove their writing skills, etc when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials ?

Legals are indeed stupid for spending a few years ensuring that they will not be a burden on American society.

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande.

[Erika]

80. No, we'll take the borders down

and the GOP will agree.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

137. Totally Krist-Like

RFLMAO.

[beam me up scottie]

141. I don't think I'd want to be responsible for starting

the kind of threads that draw the support of people like him.

How about you?


I need to disinfect my computer now.

[Erika]

145. Yep. n/t

[Krist]

154. ahh.. namecalling.

Which high school do you go to BTW ?

[beam me up scottie]

162. Ah, the oinking of

the male of the species.

Notice the sloping forehead and how his knuckles drag on the ground.

[Bridget Burke]

345. The OP did not fully distinguish between legal & illegal....

He claims that the US economy is moribund & that's fine with him. There's NO ROOM in the country, so everybody else should keep out.

[Neil Lisst]

44. it is a vise that is squeezing out the working poor in America

Your comments about the economy and where it is headed are accurate. The real estate is already losing air.

When homes start going to foreclosure, the conflict over illegal immigration will get worse.

[Elwood P Dowd]

45. Is see few posters addressing the economics

Maybe they are afraid to face facts.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

350. They're just your typical Lexus Liberals.

No feelings at all for working-class citizens. They really hate us.

[Hippo_Tron]

51. So why don't we just force corporations to pay them minimum wage?

Then there will be no immediate incentive to hire an undocumented immigrant over a US citizen. In fact, it will probably be the other way around considering that chances are that the US citizen speaks better English. The person who is best qualified for the job will get the job.

[Warren Stupidity]

342. must not talk sense. nt.

[Skip Intro]

56. we must consider the issue in humanitarian terms before economic terms

hmmmm.....

of course, I believe it to be within the capabilty, and therefore an absolute necessity, that the human race feed and shelter all of its own too...

[Hippo_Tron]

58. So why don't we just force corporations to pay them minimum wage?

Then there will be no immediate incentive to hire an undocumented immigrant over a US citizen. In fact, it will probably be the other way around considering that chances are that the US citizen speaks better English. The person who is best qualified for the job will get the job.

If I didn't explain it well enough, Maddox does a pretty good job as well.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi?p=1#CLUETRAIN

[noahmijo]

69. WINNNNNNNNNNNER

Check my reply right below your post

[sheelz]

117. Minimum wage is not enough!

Many corporations pay only minimum wage and they hire only part-time, especially in the service sector. They don't provide benefits and the employee must be available all hours. Bush's "uniquely American" situation of 2-3 jobs isn't possible because of the crazy schedule of always being available on-demand. How can anybody even make rent with a $5.15 wage when companies are only hiring part-time. Do the math. Minimum wage or another dollar or two per hour isn't a living wage either when companies only hire part-time. There are many ares in the country where job prospects are dismal. This is where the country is headed: Low wages, part-time, no benefits. Education and skills don't even matter anymore. Minimum wage is not enough, we need to push for more.

[Hippo_Tron]

360. Don't disagree with you at all

But providing a living wage and benefits is another issue entirely. My point was force corporations to pay them as much as US Citizens.

[sheelz]

389. It's not another issue....

I'm all for making the corporations pay but there are consequences. One consequence would be the influx of minimum wage earners on the work force. We have a limited amount of jobs here that can't absorb the influx. It would be an employers "market"--basic supply and demand.

Because the higher supply of workers, corporations could easily take away benefits and everything unions have fought and died for.

[Hippo_Tron]

396. I don't see how allowing corporations to pay $1 an hour...

To an undocumented immigrant doesn't already undermine everything that unions have fought and died for.

[sheelz]

397. They are already undemined...

this would undermine (undercut) then even more. It's simple supply and demand.

/typo

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Elwood P Dowd]

90. So you are calling me a bigot for pointing out

an economic reality? I have several made references to the corps taking advantage of this situation in numerous other posts. I have pointed out the failures of NAFTA, and the millions of jobs lost in Mexico because of that piece of shit agreement. Neither the dems or the repukes are willing to do anything about it.

[cynatnite]

94. You forgot about making the corporations and businesses pay

decent salaries and hitting them hard when they hire illegals.

Do you honestly believe the repukes will do that?

For your information, the only reason why it's okay for my father and grandmother to be an illegal in this country is because they're white.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

103. Bingo. That's why the corporations are making obscene profits....

...they are paying at least 40% less for employees in high-tech industries, and they've cut employee benefits to the bare bones.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dailykoff]

71. Who do you think is buying all the crap that WalMartoSoft

is selling? :crazy:

[electricray]

74. The ills that you speak of are created by so many factors

Migrant workers that can afford to live on poor wages are actually propping up the US economy by allowing productivity gains while actual wage costs remain low.

Yes I will agree that we are on the cusp of a horrible economic downturn but the labor supply is the least of our worries. There are large sectors of wealth massing behind investments everywhere else in the world. Domestic investment is waning. The labor supply will only rise to meet demand. If Halliburton were investing the billions of dollars they are raking in in America, say on an Apollo energy project, and if they weren't corrupt, I think we would be in a much different position as a country. You could open the borders tomorrow and register everyone crossing as a genuine American and the economic problems might spike, but they would reverse course as soon as the demand waned and lets face it you can only hire so many drywallers, janitors, and truck drivers.

The reason there are people on this board that seem pro-immigrant even if it seems against their own interests is because we are a just and caring community. The argument over immigration is not the one we should be having to fix this situation. The argument should be about workers rights regardless of whether they are American or not. If American hands touch the money created by a worker, those American hands should also work to insure that that worker in question is not being abused.

[Gregorian]

78. Pro-illegal is like pro-abortion.

For what they are worth, borders do exist. And in that context, I am not for breaking the law neccisarily. I think the argument breaks down when one extrapolates that since some foreigners want to come to America, all foreigners want to come to America. My father pays a Mexican good money to help him trim his grape orchard. That poor guy has a house and a family back in Mexico. Do you think he wants to be here? Hell no. It's a great sacrifice for him to be away from his home. We must acknowledge people first. I mean, the least of the people. No Mexican is coming over here and programming a 9 axis Mazak cnc machining center. That just doesn't happen. They're picking grapes. I don't see the threat, for starters. But that's not even the issue.

I must say that we have to protect ourselves as well. This argument loses sight of that to a degree. I think we need to find a way to do that, AND address the fact that we need to be a nation of compassion. Wiring up the borders with razer wire only turns us into a kind of prison camp. Or some kind of contemptuous country. That is not the America i want to live in. I would prefer more illegal immigrants than armed borders. And that is for in as well as out. Who knows where that scenario can lead.

I think there is more to this discussion than is being talked about. I am out of here for the day. But one last thing I want to say is that there is also something else about this discussion that I find very bothersome. While we are talking about Mexicans (pretty much Mexicans, if you will) crossing our borders illegally, Bush is getting ready to bomb Iran, among other things. We do not have time to waste on this subject right now. I think we had better collect ourselves and solidify into a strong group that can stop this menace in the White House.

[Placebo]

79. people want them here to wash their dishes...

but not to be going to their schools

[Erika]

86. Like Linda Chavez

She had illegal aliens be family servants and never paid a cent in taxes as an employer. Republicans don't see immigrants as "real" people.

[Daphne08]

89. I have to agree with you, and I've purposely avoided DU lately

because of this issue.

[TahitiNut]

124. Tell me about it. Sad and disgusting.

:eyes:

[RoyGBiv]

101. Why can't everyone get it?

Tilt at your windmills. I understand, in theory, where you're coming from. It's so simple it seems absurd that no one gets it. I get it.

I also understand something else that few involved in this debate have even deliberated. Oh, I've tried. I've tilted at that windmill too, and everything I saw seems to fall on deaf ears, but like you, I'll try one more time, although not at length. I'm tired of pouring out the quotes and the statistics and backing all that up with hard evidence. It's pointless.

Turn your attention to, say, the 1880's. Work from there. Look into the Populist and Agrarian movements. Figure out why they by and large failed. Hint: Republicans and Democrats (Conservatives) at the time forced the debate to turn on an issue very much like illegal immigration, in some cases exactly like it. Once you've explored that, contrast and compare. Specifically, take your words here and compare them to those uttered by politicians of the day trying everything they could to crush the interests of labor. I would say "contrast" them, but there is no contrast. You're mimicking them, constructing a perfectly logical argument just like that formed by otherwise well-meaning labor activists of the day. They were defeated, miserably, because they thought it was about race (immigration).

In short, change the laws so that "illegals" working below minimum wage aren't desireable, and you've solved the problem. Some will claim that isn't possible. Okay ... full circle. Study the Populist movement and what happened to it. The modern Republicans have. They learned well.

[Erika]

106. Yes, indeed.

The problem here is the exploitation of the worker, legal or illegal, for high profits by the employer.

It is the destruction of the middle class. Thanks for your post.

[RoyGBiv]

119. Exactly...

The Republicans (corporate interests) and Democrats (Conservatives) of the late 19th/early 20th century had nothing else in mind but to destroy labor. They set the terms of the debate to revolve around race. The modern Republicans and some Democrats have set the terms to revolve around immigration. (And we could bring the Know-Nothings of the 1850's into it here, but I won't at this time.)

The point is to avoid the *real* issue, the rights of labor.

[rodeodance]

109. goggle a 2004 NC reseach report on immigrant labor effects on the

economy--or lose of. anderson 360 reported on it this evening.

[mzmolly]

183. Here's a portion of what you note I believe?

The recovery from the recession of 2001 has been described as “jobless.” In fact, an analysis of the latest Census Bureau data shows that between March of 2000 and March of 2004, the number of adults working actually increased, but all of the net change went to immigrant workers. The number of adult immigrants (18 years of age and older) holding a job increased by over two million between 2000 and 2004, while the number of adult natives holding a job is nearly half a million fewer. This Backgrounder also finds that the number of adult natives who are unemployed or who have withdrawn from the labor force is dramatically higher in 2004 than it was in 2000. These findings raise the possibility that immigration has adversely Affected the job prospects of native-born Americans.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back1104.html

And here

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back1204.html

I neither endorse or disapprove of the findings noted above -

[Marie26]

355. Another study on North Carolina immigration

"Center for Immigration Studies" is a right-wing think tank that "seeks fewer immigrants." They have a definite agenda. For balance, I'm posting another study that was done on the effects of immigration in North Carolina. This study was done by the Univ. of North Carolina & was one of the largest of its kind. I think it gives a good overview of both the benefits & drawbacks of immigration.

Study: NC's Hispanic immigrants contribute more than $9 billion to the economy

Raleigh, N.C. -- North Carolina’s rapidly growing Hispanic population contributes more than $9 billion to the state’s economy through its purchases, taxes and labor, while costing the state budget a net $102 per Hispanic resident in health care, education and correctional services, according to a new study by researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

If recent migration trends continue, the total economic impact of Hispanic spending in the state could increase to $18 billion by 2009.

These were among the key findings and conclusions of the first major comprehensive study of the state’s Hispanic population and its economic impact conducted by the Frank Hawkins Kenan Institute of Private Enterprise at UNC-Chapel Hill for the North Carolina Bankers Association (NCBA), in cooperation with the Mexican Consulate of Raleigh, N.C. The study assessed the economic impact of the state’s growing Hispanic population and identified potential business opportunities provided by this fast-growing market.

“This study quantifies for the first time the enormous economic contributions made by our state’s Hispanic population, as well as pointing to a wide range of public policy issues and business opportunities to be explored,” said NCBA President and CEO Thad Woodard. “North Carolina policymakers and business leaders now have a wealth of data and information on which to make decisions about both challenges and opportunities offered by this increasingly significant segment of our state’s population and economy.”

Among the study’s findings:
- North Carolina’s Hispanic population totaled 600,913, or 7 percent of the state’s total population, in 2004. The average Hispanic household contains 3.7 people (compared to 2.4 people in the average non-Hispanic household) and earns about $32,000 annually (compared to $45,700 for non-Hispanics).

- Hispanics accounted for 27.5 percent of the state’s population growth from 1990 to 2004 and 57 percent of the total enrollment growth in North Carolina Public Schools between school years 2000-2001 and 2004-2005.

- Hispanics filled one in three new jobs created in North Carolina between 1995 and 2005, with significant concentrations in the construction industry (29 percent of the labor force).

- North Carolina Hispanics’ after-tax income totaled an estimated $8.3 billion in 2004. With about 20 percent of that total sent home to Latin America, saved or used for interest payments, the remaining spending had a total economic impact of $9.2 billion on the state. Much of that spending occurs in the major metropolitan areas along the Interstate 40/Interstate 85 corridor, but it also supports businesses in every part of the state.

- Hispanics annually contribute about $756 million in taxes (direct and indirect) while costing the state budget about $817 million annually for K-12 education ($467 million), health care ($299 million) and corrections ($51 million) – for a net cost to the state of about $61 million, or $102 per Hispanic resident.

“The net cost to the state budget must be seen in the broader context of the aggregate benefits Hispanics bring to the state's economy,” researchers said. “Above and beyond their direct and indirect impacts on North Carolina business revenues, Hispanic workers contribute immensely to the state's economic output and cost competitiveness in a number of key industries.”

http://carolinanewswire.com/news/News.cgi?database=headlines.db&command=viewone&id=7386&op=t

Download the study: www.kenaninstitute.unc.edu

[marions ghost]

369. thank you

this is a very clear picture of the relative benefits and losses of immigrant workers to a state that is heavily invested in them.

[alittlelark]

114. The same reality we have had for 20+ years

WHY ARE WE BUYING INTO THE ROVIAN DISTRACTION??????


That's my question.... Plame - Brewster Jennings- Iraq- Nukes in Iran - economy- uh.... the list is LONG..


Why are we allowing ourselves to be sucked into this 50-30-20 year old morass????????????????

[leftstreet]

139. "Why are we buying into the Rovian Distraction?"

For these reasons:





People are scared.

They don't understand why/who/what was able to mobilize protests of this size.

They don't understand the nuanced legislative reform bills papering the walls of Congress.

They don't want to be seen as being on the "wrong" side of an issue they don't understand.

But most importantly, they have no confidence that anyone has "a plan" to "fix" this scary problem.

[Erika]

140. What scary problem?

The Hispanics just proved they've had enough and the GOP has buckled.

[beam me up scottie]

143. You know...

scary problems and distractions like abortion rights, GLBT rights, protecting the First Amendment, opposing the war in Iraq, stupid stuff like that. :eyes:

[Erika]

146. These are not being forgotten n/t

[beam me up scottie]

149. I know.

That's what I was trying to point out.;)

EVERYTHING is a Rovian distraction to some people.

Even demanding basic human rights.

[leftstreet]

144. Technically, that's not true.

Sensenbrenner's original bill talked "felony." The Dems screamed and he amended it to a misdemeanor. Then the Dems all voted against it. Both sides of the aisle WANTED this fight. Election year goodies.

As it stands now:

The Senselessbrenner and/or SpecterBush bill: work and leave.

The McCain/Kennedy bill - work and eventually stay.

But the protesters want amnesty for their work. (If you take the time to actually listen to them.) They're being shafted by both parties, and all the "nonprofit" organizations pretending to represent them.

No one is "buckling" to them.
Instead, no one is truly representing them.

[beam me up scottie]

152. I'm sorry,

I misunderstood your first post.

You're right, of course.

Thank you for the clarity.

You've given me a lot to think about.

[leftstreet]

155. Thinking rocks!

:hi:

[hunter]

156. Um, what people are you talking about?

It doesn't sound like you are talking about the people in the crowds.

I'm not scared of them. They are family and friends.

Now the people in, oh, I don't know, Elwood P. Dowd's world, I do worry about them...

If they could gather up with us to press back against those in power who abuse us, then maybe we could change some things.

I do not understand what causes struggling white middle class American workers to identify with their abusers. People like George Bush and Dick Cheney and the powerful people they serve don't care about white middle class culture. White middle and lower class workers are merely pawns, just like the undocumented workers.

¡Sí, Se Puede! Yes, We Can

[beam me up scottie]

157. hunter,

:hi: read his post #144, he doesn't mean what you think.

[leftstreet]

160. People here.

I was talking about the people here - fighting over "illegal immigration" talking points with limited access to information that could help them understand what's really going on.

And yes, we (pawns) ALL can!

[hunter]

178. That sort of clears it up... here on DU you mean.

I really do blame this on the media.

What we've got now is something like the Soviets had. Pravda. Most Americans don't get real news, real analysis, only "talking points."

When real news happens to overwhelm the filtering apparatus of our crippled media, it can be a real shock.

These huge crowds shocked some people. They didn't see it coming.

[leftstreet]

412. Yes, I meant here

"Here" basically being the anonymous clusterfuck of the blogosphere. It's hard for real honesty or real debate, on many issues. There are far too many political ...uh... loyalists attempting to re-frame the talking points on the issues.

And you're right. Most Americans don't get real news. Be interesting to know what would happen if they did.

:hi:

[swag]

115. You are ignoring both future trends and past evidence.

Future: The famous "demographic timebomb" is looming in the US with baby boomers set to start retiring in 2 years. The USA is going to be starving for workers and taxpayers within the space of a decade, outsourcing notwithstanding (particularly with regard to taxpayers).

Past: Princeton Economist Alan Krueger has examined (blogged here by economist Mark Thoma) real and imagined impacts of immigrant populations on the wages of "native" workforces and found the effects to be much more benign (even to the point of being economically beneficial to "native" worker wages and conditions) than assumptions of anti-immigrationists would claim. To wit:

One of the clearest and most compelling studies of the effect of immigration on natives’ labor market opportunities was conducted by David Card of the University of California at Berkeley and published in Industrial & Labor Relations Review in 1990. Specifically, Professor Card examined the effect of the Mariel Boatlift — which resulted in 125,000 new Cuban immigrants arriving in southern Florida between May and September of 1980 — on the labor market in Miami. This sudden and unexpected wave of immigration increased the city’s labor force by 7 percent. Most of the new workers were unskilled. Yet Professor Card found that the wages and employment opportunities of unskilled workers who already lived in Miami were not hurt by this large inflow of immigrants. “Even among the Cuban population,” he concluded, “wages and unemployment rates of earlier immigrants were not substantially affected by the arrival of the Mariels.” He reached his conclusions by comparing Miami with other cities that were not affected by the Mariel Boatlift. This study, which is a model for research, was specifically mentioned in Professor Card’s citation when he was awarded the Clark Medal, a prize given by the American Economic Association every other year.

The central finding of David Card’s study of the Mariel Boatlift — that an unanticipated influx of immigrants does not have a harmful effect on the employment or wages of natives — has been replicated in other settings by other researchers. For example, Professor Jennifer Hunt of McGill University found similar results in a study of the impact on the French labor market of 900,000 people who were repatriated from Algeria in 1962. In addition, Rachel Friedberg of Brown University found that a large inflow of Russian immigrants into Israel after emigration restrictions in the Soviet Union were lifted, which resulted in a 12 percent jump in Israel’s population, did not have a harmful effect on the labor market outcomes of other Israelis.

Another line of research uses cross-city data to examine how natives’ job market outcomes vary with the share of the workforce in the city contributed by immigrants. This line of research finds mixed results, but is arguably less compelling than studies that focus on large influxes of immigrants to a particular labor because immigrants choose the city in which they settle, and economic conditions in the city are probably an important factor in that decision. By contrast, studies that focus on the natural experiment created by a sudden and unanticipated influx of immigrants to a specific country or labor market have the advantage of analyzing an event in which immigrants entered a labor market for reasons largely beyond their control and unrelated to the state of the economy in the labor market where they sought work. In addition, because these natural experiments are often large relative to the size of the labor market, it is hard to argue that any effect of immigration was offset by an outflow of other residents.

Studies that claim to find a deleterious effect of immigration on natives’ wages are typically based on theoretical predictions, not actual experience. These theoretical predictions are very sensitive to their underlying assumptions, which are often controversial. Existing theoretical predictions typically do not factor in relevant consequences of immigration, such as an increase in demand for goods and services produced in the U.S. that results from greater demand due to immigrants. They also do not account for entrepreneurship of immigrants. Those studies that predict the largest adverse impacts of immigration on natives’ wages assume that as new workers are added to the U.S. labor market, the size of the capital stock remains unchanged. More realistically, as workers come to the U.S., the capital stock is likely to expand, particularly in the industries where immigrants are most likely to be employed. An increase in investment would mitigate the effects of increased immigration on workers as a whole. Existing theoretical simulations that take investment into consideration show very small effects of immigration on low skilled natives and on average a small positive effect for U.S. residents as a whole.

"Why does immigration apparently have such a benign effect on natives’ wages and employment opportunities? The answer to this question is not clear, but it is probably more complicated than the simple response that immigrants take jobs that U.S. workers do not want. One likely factor is that, in addition to increasing the supply of labor, immigrants increase the demand for goods and services produced in the U.S. This leads to higher wages and employment for all workers in the U.S. Immigration can also result in an increase in capital investment. And many immigrants become entrepreneurs, creating jobs for other immigrants and natives. Immigrant entrepreneurs may be particularly likely to develop export opportunities for American products given their connections abroad and language skills."

[fujiyama]

142. What "pro illegal crowd" is that?

I've seen maybe five posts endorsing open borders. I've seen very few endorsing full amnesty as well.

Most of us here agree on a few basics:

Illegal immigration isn't a good thing.

Illegal immigration likely depresses wages for those residing here legally.

Corporations and businesses that hire undocumented illegal immigrants should be punished.

Illegal immigration is inherantly illegal. It's the key part of t he phrase. The question is, do we approach this problem humanely with the understanding that the people that have come here did so for a better life, that many now have settled families (with natural born children), and work hard?

Or do we approach this like authoritarian thugs. Will the war on illegal immigration, become the war on drugs, where we take a "lock 'em up" approach which accomplishes little? Does it address reality?

Is there any practical way to deport 11 million people? Can you jail that many? Neither is practical or cost effective. Both would cost more resources than giving (some of) them a shot to stay and work here legally. Neither is morally right as well.

Sure, deportations for some, if not many, may be required, but it makes no sense to simply say "kick them out". It's not that simple.

The labor side is perhaps most important. Unless the endorcement of labor laws is strengthened, this will remain a major problem. It's worth noting that since Bush came into office, enforcement of such laws has falled drastically. Simply requiring minimum wage to be paid will not be enough. I'm thinking that a living wage for all full time positions is a must. As long as the demand for cheap labor exists, and as long as hopeless poverty prevails, no solution is available. The key is excess corporate control of our government, whether it's the pushing of NAFTA to the the pressure to not enforce labor laws.

[Krist]

181. Agree

How to approach this problem is the tricky aspect. But most of what you say makes sense.

But while there is no practical way to deport 11 million (some numbers are up to 30 million). Give those who have arrived in US, for over 10 years or so, a shot at citizenship (behind legal immigrants). Deport the newly arrived ones.
Fence both the Canadian and mexican borders. BTW, the situation in Texas is so drastic that giving Tax-breaks to small businesses that dont hire illegals might even sound like a good plan.

[beam me up scottie]

184. "Fence both borders"

Now there's a liberal sentiment if I've ever heard one.

[cynatnite]

185. That is the most fucking asinine post I have ever read!

Where to even start boggles the mind.

Still penalizing the immigrants, but not business. Then you advocate putting up a goddamn fence! Geez...that is in no way progressive, liberal or dem.

What the hell are you?

[beam me up scottie]

197. Oh no, you used the F word.

That really upset him when I did it.

[cynatnite]

202. And I'll fucking use it again

:P

:rofl:

Who needs sleep. Not me.

[beam me up scottie]

209. Me either!

I thrive on anger!

I think I'll go to work in a couple of hours and kick some white southern racist butt.

[mzmolly]

158. I wonder how many people have picked up a paper lately?

The job section in my metro area is about 1/20th what it was under Clinton.

One more recommendation for you.

[RagingInMiami]

164. So an illegal president makes things worse

So we go after the illegal immigrants?

[beam me up scottie]

165. You've got the idea!

ANd they'll spend all the money they WERE going to spend on illegal immigrants on us once they're gone.

Isn't that how it works?

Things will definitely be better.

Just as soon as we find someone else to blame.

[mzmolly]

169. I'm blaming employers who prey on the easilly exploited, how bout you?

Are you pleased with the job market/state of the economy?

[beam me up scottie]

174. I'm not recommending an anti-immigration thread, thank you.

I'd be ashamed to recommend this after reading the posts from some of its supporters.

YMMV

[mzmolly]

176. I'm not either, I'm recommending a big-picture thread that takes

the economy and all workers into consideration.

Further, it's not anti-immigration thread, it's an anti-exploitation thread. Note the word "illegal" in the OP. Illegal means no rights, no benefits, no living wage.

[beam me up scottie]

180. Right, because we all know "illegal" means brown and poor.

Again, I'd be ashamed to recommend a thread that promotes fear and paranoia.

And again, YMMV.

[mzmolly]

187. Who do you think competes for the jobs "illegal" immigrants take

for 2 bucks an hour? Educated wealthy white guys?

The racist card is getting mighty old in this discussion. The brown/poor are those effected by encouraging slave labor.

[beam me up scottie]

190. Damn straight the racist card got old a long time ago, read this thread.

to prey like parasites on the host society.

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

Fence both the Canadian and mexican borders.

You signed off on it, enjoy.

[mzmolly]

195. What do these statements have to do with the original post?

I've not signed off on shit other than the OP, now if you can find me something in said post that is "racist" I'll consider your point valid.

[beam me up scottie]

200. Oh, nothing at all. Ignore the racists.

It'll be just like posting on free republic.

[mzmolly]

204. I'm not the DU police.

Indeed, pulling out ridiculous abusive name calling bullshit - is just like Free Republic.

[beam me up scottie]

212. No, that would be calling illegal immigrants stupid Mexican criminals.

And you just thanked the guy who did that.

Repeatedly.

Way to go!

:applause:

[mzmolly]

216. Show me the links to his calling immigrants "stupid mexicans"

Illegal does imply a criminal act so I'll let that go. So far it looks like only posts that responded to him have been deleted. I'll let that speak for itself.

However you just likened DU-ers to Hitler -

I guess I should be shocked, but I'm not. Pathetic.

[cynatnite]

221. But when a corporate or business hires someone who isn't here legally...

then what?????

What shocks the hell out of me is some DUer's so willing to let corporate and business slide for breaking the law. What's even worse is when they blame the woes of this country on people who are not here illegally. It doesn't matter that they pay taxes, pay their bills, have jobs, go to church and follow the law.

[mzmolly]

225. I haven't seen DU-ers do what you suggest. I've seen anyone who

doesn't tout "illegal immigration is great" called a racist and compared to HITLER, however.

I don't think any DU-er would suggest letting businesses slide or placing the blame on those who are here legally or otherwise. People have to survive, we all get that. The question today is how do we balance the survival of our middle class and even lower class with the survival of immigrants?

[cynatnite]

234. By forcing corporates and businesses to pay livable wages

punishing them when they exploit workers. Have real immigration reform that doesn't punish good hardworking people for a shot at having a decent life. It's what most people want in this country.

If you've followed the conversation here, you have probably seen some blame the immigrants for the woes of our economy. Some of the posters don't even mention the exploitation of these people and one even supports putting up a damn fence. This is why I'm pissed. It's bullshit.

There is a workable solution, but too many politicians, both dem and repukes, are in bed with big businesses that pay slave wages to illegal immigrants. I'm waiting for the one who uses some common sense and stands up for all of us...illegal immigrants included.

[mzmolly]

237. I've not seen the "blame the immigrants" personally.

I've seen people called racist when they suggest that before we invite people to prosper with us, we best be prospering ourselves.

Other than that I agree with what you've stated fully.

[cynatnite]

243. Read a few of Krist's posts

He's got some. And someone else posted some rather obscene crap that was patently racist, too.

Oh, and bush was blamed for us not prospering before this whole issue blew up here at DU.

[mzmolly]

255. Read a few of the other posts in this thread.

I think it's racist to suggest those who don't support mass illegal immigration are akin to Hitler.

[cynatnite]

257. Um, nope, that's not what I said at all

and race has nothing to do with it, either. I'm scratching my head on that one.

I compared the blaming of illegal immigrants for this countries woes to Hitler's blaming of Jews for Germany's woes. I think it's a very interesting parallel we shouldn't ignore.

[mzmolly]

263. It would be a parallel were people blaming immigrants for this counties

woes, but I don't think they are.

[marions ghost]

365. well said

:thumbsup:

[beam me up scottie]

229. When did I mention Hitler?

Show me.

And you should be shocked that DUers are supporting fencing in the borders, but you're not.

You're too busy shrieking at the liberals who are trying to point it out to you.

[mzmolly]

239. Like I said fence schmence I couldn't care less. However

your Hitler card was played here - where you supported such a statment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911651

[beam me up scottie]

246. You couldn't care less?

You freaked out when you thought we were unjustly accusing another DUer of supporting such a thing.

And now you couldn't care less?

I'll bet.

[mzmolly]

252. Move the goal posts again why don't you.

Nope - couldn't.care.less - about a fence. Got it? I shant shed a tear over a futile fence other than the expense.

Now - if someone proposed snipers on the border, I'd have a problem with that.

So far you've made numerous false assertions and abusive comments to others in this discussion. You've not backed up one claim about the OP (and continue to discuss him instead of the subject matter - which is against the user rules.) Apparently you don't care about them huh? If you have an issue with the posts made by Elwood, use your ALERT button.

I'm out - .

[beam me up scottie]

261. I moved the goal posts? Your words:

mzmolly (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-12-06 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #198
210. C'mon this is getting ridiculous! You don't know who this person "blames"

I've not seen DU-ers suggest concentration camps, fences, electrical wire. Jeeze people this is insane.

Now when you've been given proof the DUer you thanked did indeed suggest fences, you could care less.

And when did I discuss the op with you at all?

You asked for proof that DUers called immigrants stupid Mexican criminals.

I gave you proof, SEVERAL times, and as I already said, the posts are still there if you'd care to read them.


I guess if I had been proven wrong as many times as you have, I'd be out too.

[mzmolly]

266. Oh no, ya got me on the fence! I said "I've not seen" remember?

Now I have seen the fence thing, but I'm waiting for you to clear up your main bs: You've been accusing the OP of making various remarks for some time, you said they were deleted, but in this post you claimed other wise. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911447

Your lying tactics are catching up with you.

Indeed I'm out - In fact, I've asked to have my membership removed, but don't flatter yourself, you had little to do with it - I requested my removal before our conversation.

The overall tone of this place and the lack of respect for user rules ect. are more than I care to partake in any more.

Peace all.

[beam me up scottie]

296. We should be so lucky.

I never accused the op of anything.

My post that you are linking to proves it.


This is what I posted to the OP, who thought I meant him:

Did I say you did?

I was replying to the poster who posted these statements:

See how that works?



I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.

I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.

I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.

I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.

I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.

I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.

I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.

I told the OP that I didn't mean him, and that I meant the poster who made those statements.





Maybe you'd care to link to my post a few more times until what I actually said sinks in?

[mzmolly]

302. What did you think I meant by "the OP."

:shrug:

[beam me up scottie]

304. I think I was so mad at the other guy

so I kept focusing on him, and didn't realize you thought I meant the op.

I notice the poster who was responsible for all of this mess disappeared.

[mzmolly]

308. Gotcha. Sorry about the confusion on my part.

I kept combing the thread for offensive statements by the OP and didn't find anything but deleted replies to him. So, I thought you were tangling with Elwood and not the party in question. When you said I thanked someone I thought you meant the recommendation of the thread. People took issue with the fact that I did so, and I was defending that.

Peace.

:crazy:

[beam me up scottie]

311. Me too.

I usually always agree with you, that should have made me rethink it.

But I was tired and so mad at the *expletive deleted* I just kept going.

Like I said, I thought this thread was going super nova, so by the time you got here, I was dancing on the tables.

[mzmolly]

318. S'alright I generally agree with you also.

I just am so disgusted by this entire immigration issue I got punchy. It started when another poster called me a racist tonight. I'm still pissed about that.

I think this convo is funny actually.

:popcorn: ;)

[countryjake]

329. It wasn't fun earlier!

Somewhere there was one about a big wall with electrified razor wire, can't find it now so it must have been zapped, but that was what I was referring to when I mentioned that House bill to you. And in that post I linked you to, there's one which said the Freepers might be right this time. I think my alert button has been disabled or something, but it's beyond me that stuff like that goes unchallenged.

[beam me up scottie]

330. It is, isn't it?

In a weird it's-a-train-wreck-but-nobody-was-killed sort of way.

I know you're not a racist, and I don't think the op is, for the record.

I just abhor the kind of creatures who use these threads to hate-monger.

I try to stay away from them for the most part.

I almost quit DU during the Minute Man wars last year.

It was horrible.

[mzmolly]

331. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times ...

That's DU.

Peace out, once again. ;)

[beam me up scottie]

333. Yeah, I gotta go make the donuts.

Peace out, mzmolly!

[beam me up scottie]

236. I'll do better

I'll post his own words:

to prey like parasites on the host society.

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

Fence both the Canadian and mexican borders.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for you to show me where I mentioned Hitler in my posts.


Well?

[mzmolly]

241. I'd like the links/context once again.

Thanks.

[beam me up scottie]

247. You already read the fucking thread and recommended it.

Now you can't find his posts?

They haven't been deleted.

Too much work to find out who you're thanking, and for what?

[mzmolly]

253. They've been deleted and I'm to read them?

Interesting logic. I'm not surprised. As I've said, I recommended the OP, and a few of your posts have also been deleted huh?

[beam me up scottie]

256. Wow, you ARE confused.

One of my posts was deleted and not for linking to another post.

And as far as I can tell, your friend's posts are still there.

Which you would know if you read the thread.


Read the fucking thread.

[mzmolly]

259. You made the assertions prove it.

However as I've said "I supported the statement in the OP" how many times must you hear that? And your calling ME confused?

[beam me up scottie]

264. I gave you proof.

You're ignoring it.

Just like you're ignoring the actual posts, which are still there and, as you know, I can't link to them without being in violation of DU rules.


Listen, I think I hear them now:


"Read me, mzmolly"

"I'm over here, mzmolly!"

"Yoo Hoo! Look over here, mzmolly!"



See?

I told you!


But I guess it's easier to ignore the facts and falsely accuse others, than it is to actually do the homework.

[mzmolly]

267. And here's proof that you lie about others without regard.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911447

Sad.

[countryjake]

276. I don't understand?

I think you're confusing the OP with the person who has made all those statements about "blokes" and "illiterate illegals". That is who BMUS's post was directed to...no lies there, but rightful indignation. It was the OP who misunderstood.

[beam me up scottie]

279. Yeah, that's my take on it.

That's what happens when people don't read the threads first.

[mzmolly]

282. NO that's your spin on it, unless you can tell me who I "thanked

repeatedly" and referred to continually as "the OP."

[beam me up scottie]

291. That would be this thank you:

mzmolly (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-12-06 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #192
201. My family is an example of "the great melting pot."

I laugh out loud when I'm called a racist.

Thanks for the post.

I don't want to ruin the surprise.


I'll let you look up who you were thanking all by yourself.



:rofl:

[countryjake]

288. Actually, I can't blame those who don't want to read it...

unless I'm there when something like this happens (which I'm normally not), I have a pretty hard time reading and keeping straight all the responses, so I usually just reply to the OP and don't bother with the other posts. I don't know how some of you type so fast, this topic sure filled up lickety-split!

[beam me up scottie]

307. I thought this would have been locked

and deleted hours ago.

I don't usually go congo in threads if I think that I'll have to look at them in the morning.

[countryjake]

313. I don't like seeing this nasty stuff sit on top...

so I try real hard not to add to the confusion. But I could see the confusion between you and mzmolly, so thought it best to help clear that up.

[mzmolly]

287. I'm not confusing the OP with anyone, I specifically referred to the OP

in my discussions on this subject. I was told "read the thread." Then I was told "the posts were deleted" now I'm told "I wasn't talking about the OP."

Huh? Well perhaps someone tell me WHO BMUS thought I was referring to when I said "OP?"

[countryjake]

306. It's simply that you thanked...

the person who was saying some dreadful things in this topic, that's all.

[mzmolly]

310. "Thanks for the post"

should not be taken as a blind endorsement of every post ever made by an individual. However, BMUS and I crossed wires and figured out what happened. ;) LOL

[beam me up scottie]

315. Oh please let this thing be deleted

when I come home for work.

:D

Sorry, mzmolly.

[mzmolly]

319. I'm sorry too kiddo.

Have a great night, er uhm morning.

:hug:

[cynatnite]

323. This is better...

:grouphug:

[mzmolly]

326. Indeed.

:spank: :dunce: :rofl: :grouphug:

[beam me up scottie]

332. anna won, anna too, anna tree...

[mzmolly]

167. WTH are you talking about!?

I think we need to go after employers who exploit illegal immigrants, not immigrants themselves. But let's not bother with facts when we can "read" about history and call people racist instead huh?

[RagingInMiami]

175. And when you can words in people's mouths

What the fuck is up with that shit?

[mzmolly]

177. What do you call suggesting that people want to "go after illegal

immigrants?" I consider that a racist position. I don't want to jail or deport anyone.

Let's all stop jumping to conclusions huh?

[RagingInMiami]

186. Well, when the OP is talking about "the pro-illegal immigration crowd"

It means he is drawing a clear line between that crowd and himself. And when you come along and agree with him, well that puts you into his crowd.

You can't jump in this thread, recommend it and then get offended when someone responds to your post as if you are part of the "anti-illegal immigration crowd".

After all, he was the one that made the distinction.

[mzmolly]

188. My being concerned about illegal immigration does not mean I wish to jail

or deport anyone - any more than your "defending illegal immigration" means your pro-slave labor, dig?

[RagingInMiami]

191. Keep putting words in my mouth.

Make yourself the compassionate, understanding one and me the slave-driving, exploiter. You do that very well.

[mzmolly]

199. You made this about "immigration" vs. illegal immigration.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to demonstrate how labels in this debate are bullshit.

Let's try to understand that we need a balanced position that considers EVERYONE.

[RagingInMiami]

205. You recommended a thread that specifically said

that the "pro-illegal immigration crowd" is just having so much trouble understanding whatever the hell the OP wanted us to understand -- not that he backed anything up with facts.

So why the hell are you saying that I was the one that made this about "immigration vs. illegal immigration."

[mzmolly]

206. Your grasping at straws. If you have facts to counter the assertions

in the OP post them.

The reason I said your making this about "immigration vs illegal immigration" is because you are. Check your post above.

[RagingInMiami]

219. Wait

He is allowed to post something without backing it up with facts. And you agree with him basing it only on your "facts", which is that the want ads in your paper are 1/20th of what they used to be.

Perhaps they went online.

But then you are demanding facts from me to counter the OP's factless statement. And then you tell me that I am the one grasping at straws?

[mzmolly]

231. Wait yourself.

Generally when I disagree with the facts someone has posted, I look for counter facts or ask the OP to back up their assertions.

I invite you do to either. Since I think the OP is pretty accurate, I'll refrain.

[countryjake]

248. Evidently you missed the party in this OP's other topic...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=900953&mesg_id=900953

You can count the number of times intelligent debate was encouraged by the poster on one hand, in that one. Enflaming battle on this issue seems to be popular sport around here, in fact, it's recommended by some. When I see people supporting a racist, Republican bill on a Democratic board it can't help but make me wonder.

[beam me up scottie]

250. Don't confuse her.

She's busy tarring and feathering the liberals who are disgusted by it.

[mzmolly]

262. I'm not responsible for every post from every poster on every thread I've

ever recommended are you?

You contradict yourself here however: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911447

[beam me up scottie]

268. You haven't even read the thread, have you?

What a joke.

You come in here, start accusing us of bashing the poor misunderstood guy without even bothering to read his posts.

You refuse to admit this thread contains racist posts.

You ignore the words from those posts even though I SPELLED THEM OUT FOR YOU MANY TIMES.

You adamantly insist no DUer supports building fences, and, when given proof to the contrary, you claim you don't care.

You accuse me of attacking the op when I did no such thing.

You claim that the posts were deleted, when THEY'RE STILL THERE.



You don't want to read the damn thread, and I can see why.


Having to eat that much crow for breakfast would make me sick too.

[mzmolly]

270. How many lies are you going to tell tonight?

You never insulted the OP?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911711

[beam me up scottie]

297. Nope. Read it and weep.

mzmolly (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-12-06 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #192
201. My family is an example of "the great melting pot."

I laugh out loud when I'm called a racist.

Thanks for the post.

I don't want to ruin the surprise.


I'll let you look up who you were thanking all by yourself.



:rofl:

[mzmolly]

312. I should be weeping

but not about that, about the fact that I'm sitting here at 5am pissing and moaning. ;)

[beam me up scottie]

317. I know. I HATE it when I do this.

Cyanite and I tried to leave this several times but the *expletive deleted* made us too angry.

[cynatnite]

321. You made me stay

:P

[beam me up scottie]

334. I'm a terrible influence.

At least, that's what my ex-mother in law used to say.:evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

324. Well, it's why I asked to be "tombstoned."

I feel that I'm drawn to unproductive BS and I'm not helping anyone by ranting and raving against my fellow progressives. I've tried leaving on my own, but I get sucked in by an event or news story and want someone to celebrate with, sooner or later I'm pissing and moaning in some futile conversation.

UGH.

I do feel very good that we worked this out and figured out wtf the other was saying though LOL. I'd have felt really badly going out with a negative bang and while scrapping with you BMUS. :)

Best wishes gang. I'm out - really I am this time!

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

335. Yeah, I love you guys,

I love DU and even most DUers.

But the rest can kiss my grits.

[mzmolly]

258. Who supports a racist republican bill?

I've not seen it. I've seen people accused of it however. Further I've read the OP in the thread you note, color me un-offended.

En-flaming has been done on both sides wouldn't you agree? Also, do you suggest that if the OP ever posted something offensive, I and the 11 others who recommended this thread are somehow responsible?

[cynatnite]

260. Maybe if you read the entire thread, you'll have a clear picture

of what's been said. You're getting backed into a corner and don't even know it.

[mzmolly]

273. I don't have to read the entire thread, that's a straw man. And your

falling for the tactics of dishonest posters. I suggest it is you that should read the thread.

When I recommended the OP, I recommened the OP not every damned post within it. To suggest such a thing is ridiculous.

Goodnight Cy

[cynatnite]

275. Well, I'll give you that even though the OP was completely out there

And yeah, I've been reading all the posts as this thing has grown.

I like to know what's being said by others. Either I'll learn something or I won't repeat what's already been said. Works pretty good. You ought to try it.

[mzmolly]

280. You outta try not comparing people to Hitler.

I don't have to know whats being said by others, I speak for ME and ME alone.

[cynatnite]

281. I guess you didn't read what I said about that

:eyes:

Did you know that knowing what other people are saying in a discussion can help in the way of educating you, not being repetitive and adding more to the discussion? It does help, you know.

[mzmolly]

283. I guess I'll take repetitive over calling people Hitleresque.

Thanks for the tips on posting etiquette though.

[cynatnite]

289. The tips were heartfelt, but

you completely missed the point of why I said that even though I explained it very clearly. I think this is a good time to step out of the discussion with you. Thanks for playing.

[Krist]

192. Rhetorical logic..

They take refuge in the race card without any sense of shame, and try their best to intimidate the public with their race-rants. People are racist if they refuse to support illegal immigrants now ? Great way to win over sympathies of people for their cause... by accusing them of bigotry and racism !

My good friend in grad school was a Nigerian, who was brilliant in our field. He left this country as soon as his Visa expired but couldnt get it renewed. He simply accepted the decision and moved on with his life in Nigeria.

What saddens me are such cases, where those decent, law abiding foreigners who obey laws of this country but are refused amnesty or even entry into the country due to frivolous reasons, but illegals, by virtue of their sheer numbers are seeking greater previleges and even citizenship by proxy.

[beam me up scottie]

194. Ah, the token brown friend who's been victimized by illegals.

Nice touch.

I believe you now.

You're definitely a liberal.

[cynatnite]

198. You want fences...what about electical wire? Cattle hate those.

Again, you still blame the immigrant for their frivolity, but refuse to hold corporations and businesses responsible for hiring these people and paying them slave wages. It's okay to treat them like shit, but not okay to hold those who exploit them to a moral standard.

And comparing someone who came here for an education to another who is trying to feed his starving family are two completely different things.

You just don't get it and never will.

[mzmolly]

210. C'mon this is getting ridiculous! You don't know who this person "blames"

I've not seen DU-ers suggest concentration camps, fences, electrical wire. Jeeze people this is insane.

[beam me up scottie]

215. Are you BLIND???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911649

[mzmolly]

223. I endorsed the OP. When you recommend a thread, do you endorse

every post? However, suggesting a fence is not on my list of big freaking deals. I don't think a fence would be effective, but other than that I don't give a crap.

I would ask are you DENSE? Or, can you READ? But I'll refrain from the toddler-esque tactics. Here it is one more time - I RECOMMENDED THE OP. Understand?

[beam me up scottie]

226. Sorry, I don't endorse threads that feed fear, paranoia and racism.

But nobody's telling you you can't.

Why are you upset with me?
:shrug:

[Krist]

227. Whats wrong with fences ?

Seriously, whats the "moral" aspect of it thats so wrong ?

[cynatnite]

240. Because this country is not a prison

and fences can isolate.

Fences are an obscene reminder of everything this country is not.

Look overseas. How many countries in Europe have fences separating their borders? Remember what the USSR did in Germany? They built a fence to keep people in.

There is no way in hell I want a fucking fence bordering my country.

[beam me up scottie]

242. Well, answer the guy. What's wrong with fences?

:popcorn:

[cynatnite]

244. Geez, you're impatient...

Pass the popcorn. I'm hungry. :)

[beam me up scottie]

251. Yeah, I'm like that!

I just LOVE people who come plowing into a thread and attack the liberals.

Here, I made some more :popcorn:

[cynatnite]

254. Tanks

oops, I mean thanks. :rofl:

[mzmolly]

201. My family is an example of "the great melting pot."

I laugh out loud when I'm called a racist. :eyes:

Thanks for the post. :hi:

[Krist]

218. Just a bunch of high-school kids..

Dont take them seriously..

[beam me up scottie]

224. Right, help this guy fence in the borders.

Got to keep out those illiterate criminals.

It's the Amerikkkan way.:patriot:

[Krist]

232. Its spelled America, not AmeriKKKa

Correction.

Just wondering if you hate us so much, why do you want to come to our lousy racistic hell-hole of AmeriKKKa anyway ?

[beam me up scottie]

233. "Your" Amerikkka?

When did it become just yours?

[Name removed]

373. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[countryjake]

228. Seriously?

Your naivety in this world is painfully obvious, by the statements you've made in this topic. Where in Ohio did you come from to develop such airs of privilege?

[beam me up scottie]

230. His profile says Texas.

I think he's confused.

Maybe mzmolly will help him.

[Bridget Burke]

347. I'm sure your Nigerian friend was not returning to grinding poverty.

His class & his education will allow him a fine position in Nigeria, even though he might have preferred to stay here.

Did he hire an immigration lawyer?

[NNN0LHI]

159. I have read what worries you

Now exactly what is your solution? Please be precise.

Don

[LittleClarkie]

163. Interesting how this issue is just as contentious for Dems as Repubs

The freepers are up in arms, and so are we. Interesting how this issue almost cuts down the middle. And how scary to think that some on our side agree with George W. Bush on this issue. It's his one liberal stance.

[mzmolly]

172. It's not a liberal stance unless he adds a living wage/ health care

provision to his push for guest worker legislation. Anything less is a pro-corporate - import slave labor stance.

[applegrove]

171. In 2014, when the boomers take early retirement in numbers upwards of

100 Million, there will be a shortage of people to take their jobs and do the new jobs that will be required to be filled to support such a huge amount of retirees. All the 10 Million "illegals" will be needed and more to fill those jobs.

It will be an employees market. Wages will rise. But if you take the 10 million and make many of them guest workers and all future immigrants guest workers (of a certain education level and certain types of job seekers - easily replaced with any other immigrant) then you depress wages. And that helps fight inflation that the middle class will cause. These days, Bush likes to see the middle class or wage workers fight inflation while the rich do not. The rich fork in higher stock prices on oil - but don't do the work (decreasing demand that fights inflation) they leave that to the America worker or anyone who would benefit from an employees market.

Fact is with oil rising there does need to be fight on inflation. I just don't know why the wealthy see it as one more thing they no longer need to participate in. If they are going to demand that workers do not have all wage increases go their way in the next 40 years because of labour shortages.. (increasing legal immigration would do it too but likely make for more democratic voters) then they at least need to hand over universal health care or some great program (perhaps a good public education system?) to help the American people. That is how deals work. Symbiotic relationships.

[cynatnite]

179. Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's woes

Just sayin'.

[beam me up scottie]

182. Oh, but he wasn't anti-Semitic

he was pro-Aryan.

:thumbsup:

[mzmolly]

189. Who's blaming hispanics?

I don't see it, what I see is concern about exploitation and illegal immigrants are prime for such a thing.

For gosh sakes now people here are being compared to HITLER?! Jesus!

[beam me up scottie]

193. New to the whole reading thing, are we?

to prey like parasites on the host society.

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

Fence both the Canadian and mexican borders.

WHy the FUCK do you think we're so pissed?

[mzmolly]

213. Does the name HITLER ring a bell?

I'm responsible for my comments, and YOU in your zeal, agreed with the "Hitler" card. Spare me the piety.

[beam me up scottie]

217. LOL! You just claimed that nobody here suggested fences!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911091

[mzmolly]

235. I'm still waiting for you to show me the "stupid mexican" comment.

Where is it?

[beam me up scottie]

238. I already posted it.

BUt you asked for it

to prey like parasites on the host society.

some illiterate bloke who wades through rivers and dodges the law

when someone can just jump through the borders dodging officials

If anyone wants to enter US from now on, all they've to do is wade through Rio Grande

Fence both the Canadian and mexican borders.

Now, where's my post mentioning Hitler?

[mzmolly]

245. You've posted links to comments made by other DU-ers.

And so far the mods have removed your posts to my understanding yet the OP is within the rules, correct?

The tactics you use are both juvenile and against the user rules.

[beam me up scottie]

249. Wrong. Read the rules and then read my posts again.

And read the thread while you're at it.

You'd be surprised what you can learn by reading.

[mzmolly]

278. Read this post where you didn't attack the OP again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911725

It's you that needs to read apparently - your OWN posts. Discussing other DU-ers instead of the subject is against the rules, you know that.

[beam me up scottie]

286. Are you okay?

You really need to start paying attention to the names of the posters.

I replied to the PERSON who made those statements.

The op thought I meant him, so he posted
"I have never posted any such thing
Why are telling an untruth about me?"

When I realized this, I posted in reply:

"Did I say you did?
I was replying to the poster who posted these statements:"


My original post was deleted because I called your friend (NOT THE OP, GOT IT? NOT NOT NOT THE OP), a not so nice name.


I never accused the op of

ANYTHING

AT

ANY

TIME.



Once more,

I

never

accused

the

op

of

any

thing.



Now, the op knows that, cyanite knows that, Country Jake knows that, your friend knows that.

Apparently, the only one who DOESN'T know that is the person who is accusing me of it.

Yoo hoo?

Am I getting through yet?

Blink once for yes, twice for no.

[mzmolly]

290. Who is my friend?

I recommended the OP's post and was criticized for doing so.

[beam me up scottie]

298. Your friend is the one you thanked.

You know, the one I was arguing with when you joined the thread.

If you would have paid attention, you would have noticed that I didn't argue with the op at all.

[mzmolly]

305. If you'd paid attention you'd notice that I was supporting the OP

not some person I thanked for replying to a single post I made.

You also said I thanked someone "repeatedly" and I tried to clarify WHO I was supporting by saying "I support the OP" thus the confusion.

Take Care, BMUS.

[beam me up scottie]

309. Hey wait,

where are you going?

[mzmolly]

292. I stated specifically:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=910770&mesg_id=911687

That I was talking about the OP, you skirted the issue and started talking about a "friend" of mine? Uhm - are YOU ok?

[beam me up scottie]

301. I never accused the op of anything.

I never even ARGUED with the op.

My problem was with the racist posts in this thread.

None of which were made by the op.

You should have read the posts.

All of them.

Before you accused me of attacking the op.

[mzmolly]

299. Ah hah!

"Thanks for the post" apparently equals "thanking someone repeatedly" for calling "mexicans ignorant?"

I recommended the OP, not every damned post in this thread. Saying thanks for the "post" is singular and does not mean "thanks for every thing you've ever said on the subject."

Also, I referred to the OP several times and said that I endorsed the ORIGINAL POST, nothing more. I was confused as you implied that I thanked someone REPEATEDLY for being a bigot.

:eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

303. Ho-kay.

So.

How's the weather where you live?

[mzmolly]

314. Great, I think the suns coming up.

Goodness, and the weather in your neck of the woods?

[beam me up scottie]

316. Tornado free today, thanks!

This is what I fondly refer to as a DU hangover.

bleh.

[cynatnite]

320. I'll have a big one, too

Got one kid up at 5am and two more to get up in an hour.

[beam me up scottie]

336. Have a great day.

ugh.

coffee....

[mzmolly]

328. I hear ya.

WE need a twelve step group man.

[beam me up scottie]

220. Maybe you'd like to thank him again?

For calling illegal immigrants illiterate Mexican criminals.

How about it?

[mzmolly]

294. How bout linking my thank you post?

That's not against the rules right?

[TheModernTerrorist]

222. hate to break it to ya

but we're IN a recession... :shrug:

[Hekate]

285. Time for Elwood to go have a drink with his pooka, Harvey

Almost 300 entries to this raging debate, and no end in sight. Say hi to the big rabbit for me...

Hekate

[GeorgeGist]

337. Specious reasoning...

blame the consequences for YOUR problem!

[jukes]

339. elwood

when will you understand this country is already fucked?

[Warren Stupidity]

340. Get yer flag waving xenophobia right here! nt.

[smoogatz]

343. You might be right, if the only economy in this country was the "official"

one, and the only jobs were those reported in the Dept. of Labor statistics. In fact, there's an enormous underground economy in this country, particularly in the Southwest where it is, in some ways, the dominant economic force--and it's entirely driven by cheap, illegal labor. We're talking agriculture here, of course, but illegals do every other kind of labor you can think of--from gutting and cutting in chicken processing plants to skilled construction work to restaurant/hotel work to lawn/garden care to childcare. Whole industries would implode if the supply of fresh illegals dried up. Without a continuous supply of illegal immigrants, the Southwest's underground economy would collapse--dragging the "official" economy down with it. And it's not just the Southwest anymore, of course--I live in Wisconsin, where it's now commonplace to see truckloads of Latino migrant workers heading for the apple and cherry orchards at harvest time. And why, you ask, do all these workers have to be illegal for the whole thing to work? Illegals have no official status--that's why. Employers can pay them whatever they want--or not pay them at all. Employers don't have to pay them benefits, or pay into unemployment, or workmen's comp or Social Security. All illegal labor is off the books, which saves time, money and red tape. And if an illegal worker gets injured or sick on the job, too bad--you never saw them before. If an illegal worker causes trouble, call the INS. If you think this isn't how it works, you haven't thought about it very much. Illegal immigration is domestic outsourcing, driven by market forces. The ONLY way to stop it is to enforce America's labor laws as they apply to employers, and that's not going to happen as long as agribusiness and the construction industry have as much political clout as they currently do.

[Bridget Burke]

348. So the USA is going into the shitter & that's fine with you.

Immigrants will make things worse but you don't want to make things better.

Might Bush's programs be part of the problem? You know--unending war, lower taxes on the rich & corporations--just so he can claim there isn't enough money for health & education? Let's not say any bad words about Bush & his cronies. And let's not speak of workers' rights in the USA--that might lead to more Unions!

By the way, some have not noticed that you've included legal immigrants among those masses thronging here for American jobs.

Most people here do NOT welcome a stagnant economy. And we don't think that blaming one group will solve anything.

[the other one]

354. How does BS like this make the greatest page?

Illegal Immigration is a straw man to distract us from outsourcing.

[smoogatz]

367. Illegal immigration IS outsourcing.

It's a low-risk end-run around every labor law enacted since the great depression, and a hell of a lot of industries rely on illegals to keep the profit margins high.

[B Calm]

376. I voted greatest!

[QC]

380. That depends on what you do for a living.

If you are a programmer or the like, then outsourcing is the big story.

If you work in something like carpentry or meatpacking, then illegal immigration is the big story. Of course, blue-collar workers are about as scarce as hen's teeth around here, so outsourcing is seen as the only thing that matters.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

356. you need to expand your "WE" to mean "world," not just "Amurka"

[izzybeans]

357. So progressives must swallow the bitter neo-con capitalist pill then?

Over what? Humanity? You think your post had no emotions behind it?


Will the denial of citizenship rights stop the freight train of leeches that were set in motion during the industrial revolution? Cold hard facts come in multiple colors, shades, numerals, and signs. Sometimes a description of a few statistics plucked out of the historical air provide nothing but cold hard alienation from what happens through time.

So we deny some people citizenship and throw them in jail. Meanwhile labor markets will continue to be chewed up and spit out globally like they have been for 200 years...absent of a full recognition of the economic circumstances in which the "global economy" resides of course.

Job growth regionally has always been uneven within this country. And when job growth stagnated it was directly attributable to the profit motive. This is an economy with no respect for space, place, or humanity. Instead of pitting just the regions of our country against one another, ethnic groups against one another, Euro"trash" and dumb Americans against one another, we are seeing (with NAFTA, CAFTA, and whatever is next) new nations being forced to compete with one another (all of them experiencing an us against them mentality).

Just drive through the old small industrial towns and cities and see what they have become. Freight trains rolled through there, they built the buildings, and then steamrolled them when they were no longer useful for producing wealth. Whose to blame for the disorganization of Flint, or Buffalo, or any other former bastion of industry? Was it the southerners who "Tuk ur jubs!", the midwesterners, the Okies in Seattle? Or was it a means of producing wealth that thrives off of leeching off (and this is probably a more appropriate phrase than capitalizing off) the land and labor of any person regardless of color, region, or nation?

In truth, the cold hard facts suggest that the economy is global, operates through global commodity chains (which at each step of the way siphon off different avenues for monetary wealth and from different nations or local cultures), and is centralized through a network of monsterous bureaucracies that have expanded their "organizational control" worldwide, the hallmark of corporate capitalism. Nothing about citizenship rights or immigration will change that.

Seriously its like getting beat up by a bully and the xenophobes are blaming it on their little brother.

[Roxy66]

361. Not only wages will fall...but housing costs will continue to grow

Too many people...not enough housing....prices keep going up

[smoogatz]

368. That doesn't necessarily follow.

Housing in the current market is being driven from the top down, according to everything I've read. Also, cheap undocumented labor is actually keeping the construction cost of new housing relatively low, at least in the SW. That cost savings all goes into profit for the developers, of course.

[Cobalt Violet]

371. Um... They're only building McMansions.

This does nothing at all to expand the housing availible for lower paid workers. Although our numbers are expanding the amount of housing availible for us is not. But you wouldn't know that just based on what you read. You have to be living it to understand.

[smoogatz]

374. It's fairly region-specific, is it not?

In the not-Chicago, not-Twin Cities midwest, housing is still a bargain across the income scale. Here in west-central WI, I could buy a six-bedroom, brick Victorian mansion with a 2nd floor ballroom for $400K (a fixer-upper, but still!). Or a modest, 3-br rancher w/ attached garage, fireplace and big yard in a nice neighborhood for under $160K. But you're right about the cheap-labor McMansion connection--they're sticking them up like there's no tomorrow in SoCal, where my in-laws live. It's incredible.

[leftstreet]

392. McMansions and Apartment Complexes

Here in the west.

Working-income single family dwelling construction? Nada.

[tjwash]

366. Still trying to gather up a lynch mob I see.

And you still present no viable solutions to the problem as well I see.

"pro illegal immigration." Sounds like the same crew that likes to use "pro-death" and "pro-abortion" when refering to people that are freedom of choice :eyes:

[B Calm]

372. The OP is saying it like it is! Please don't fall for another republican

trap!

Cheap Labor Cons love illegal immigrants, and always will! They keep importing cheap laborers and pit them against US workers. Anything to keep driving the wages and benefits down.

They hate Labor Unions, because when labor sticks together, wages go up!

They hate all social programs or safety nets, because when you're unemployed and desperate, corporations can pay you whatever they feel like –– which is inevitably next to nothing. You see, they want you "over a barrel" and in a position to "work cheap or starve".

Cheap-labor conservatives don't like the minimum wage, or other improvements in wages and working conditions. These reforms would undo all of their efforts to keep you "over a barrel".

Cheap-labor conservatives like "free trade", NAFTA, GATT, etc. Why. Because there is a huge supply of desperately poor people in the third world, who are "over a barrel", and will work cheap.

They hate the Social Security safety net program and are desperately trying to get rid of it. They are salivating over the prospect of millions and millions of desperate, hungry, baby boomers who are "over a barrel", and will work cheap.

[Marie26]

378. Immigrants & job growth

Interesting article about the connection between Immigrants & job growth. Cincinnati & other depressed Midwestern cities are actually trying to attract more immigrants in order to spur job growth & economic activity. (I'm waiting on the link to your statement that there's "negative job growth" in the US. I could not find one article to prove that contention).

Can immigrants save city? - As population leaves Cincinnati, there's too few to pick up slack.

The numbers come out year after year, and they are sobering: Cincinnati and Hamilton County lose population faster than just about any other urban area in America. Suburban flight is just one part of the equation - every major city is losing its residents to the suburbs.

There's one key difference between Cincinnati and areas that are growing in population: Immigrants.
Cincinnati lags behind the rest of the country in attracting newcomers from overseas, both legal and illegal. It is a symptom - and possible cause - of the region's slow job growth. ...

Historically, immigrant groups settled in particular cities for jobs, education and an already established ethnic community. But some immigrants also start their own small businesses. A Census Bureau report last month found that the number of Hispanic-owned businesses grew at three times the national average, increasing 31 percent - to 1.6 million - from 1997 to 2002. In the same time period, the number of Hispanic-owned businesses grew 116 percent in Cincinnati (to 373) and 57 percent in Hamilton County (to 684).

Jobs and immigration are so intertwined that economists and demographers say it's difficult to say which causes which. "I think it's chicken and egg. If an area is generating jobs, it will attract immigrants. And if it's not attracting immigrants, then it probably won't be generating many jobs," said Gary Wright, a former Procter & Gamble demographer born in Toronto. "But you have to make sure the conditions in your city are right so people won't rule you out. You do have to be sure that this is the kind of community that welcomes anyone of talent," he said.

Cincinnati City Council took some baby steps to make the city more hospitable to immigrants in 2003. It unanimously passed a nonbinding resolution - sponsored by then-Councilman David Pepper - asking the city manager to allow Mexican and Guatemalan immigrants seeking city services to use identification cards issued by their consulates.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060412/NEWS01/604120368/1077

Here is another interesting article about the connection between immigrants & job growth. The "conventional wisdom" is that immigrants take jobs away & depress job growth. But a major Harvard Business School study found exactly the opposite: Cities with higher concentrations of immigrants are the places where the number of jobs are growing the fastest.

Linking immigration and job growth

Amajor piece of conventional wisdom about immigrants – that newcomers take jobs away from native Americans – has been questioned in a new study of urban job growth by a Harvard Business School professor and expert on inner-city economics.

The study, in fact, seems to show just the opposite: Cities with higher concentrations of immigrants are the places where the number of jobs is growing the fastest.

The research by Michael E. Porter, founder of the Initiative for a Competitive Inner City, found that about half of the 80 largest inner cities in America had job growth between 1995 and 2003.

Inner cities that lost jobs and those that gained them tended to have similar percentages of minority residents, and their residents had about the same level of high school and college education. But the two groups of cities differed sharply when it came to one demographic measure: immigration. Inner cities that gained jobs had populations that, on average, were 31 percent immigrant. Inner cities that lost jobs had populations that averaged just 12 percent immigrants.

"There is a direct correlation between immigrant populations and job growth in inner cities," Porter writes. "Immigrants clearly and more readily identify the unique business conditions and opportunities that inner cities offer and are able to capitalize upon them. In addition, they are attractive to small and large businesses seeking willing and available labor."

Coyle said that initiative's research has found that about 15 percent of the 100 fastest growing inner-city companies are immigrant-owned, suggesting that entrepreneurship does play a significant role. "We know there's an incredible amount of entrepreneurial activity that comes with immigrants," she said. ...

But the one thing that seems clear is that those urban areas that are gaining jobs rather than losing them are doing so even as they become home to more and more immigrants. And that's definitely an angle worth studying further.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051206/news_lz1e6weintrau.html

[Elwood P Dowd]

383. Here you go

http://uspolitics.about.com/b/a/145081.htm

Private Sector Jobs: Net Four-Year Loss
News reports suggested that January job data spared President Bush from joining Herbert Hoover as the only president to see a net job loss during a four-year term. However, under Bush's watch, private sector jobs dropped 760,000, according to January 2005's anemic job growth projections. Bush's public reputation was spared only because of growth in government sector jobs, a cushy buffer missing during the Hoover days.

In January 2000, when President Bush took office, there were 111,622,000 private sector jobs in the US. Projected numbers for January 2005 are 110,862,000, a net loss of 760,000 private sector jobs. In comparison, in January 1997 there were 101,639,000 private sector jobs -- meaning 9,983,000 were created during President Clinton's second term of office.

[Marie26]

402. That's it?

Really? You're quoting an article on About.com for your position? About.com has little articles people can write about anything - I could write one on "How to fix a leaky faucet" or whatever. It's no different than citing someone's post on DU. And yet, this little how-to site was the first place you went to for economic research before writing your post? Why do I have a hard time believing that? You seem to be scrambling around now to try to find something to back up the statistics that you just made up.

If you'll notice, the about.com person is disagreeing with the reported statistics. The little blurb links to an article from the "Boston Globe". Here is the actual Globe news article from Feb. 2005:

Jobless rate falls to 5.2 %

With January's payroll growth, the nation finally regained all the jobs lost in the last recession, and surpassed the previous employment peak of February 2001 by 27,000 net jobs. The tortuous labor market recovery was the longest since World War II, requiring 46 months to reach the prerecession peak, compared to 31 months in the early 1990s and the postwar average of 22 months.

Bush, meanwhile, ended his first term with 119,000 more jobs than when he took office in January 2001. Recently inaugurated for a second term, Bush spent much of last year's presidential campaign fending off attacks on his economic policies, which Democrats predicted would place him with Hoover as the only presidents to end terms with net job losses.

With that fate avoided, the Bush administration hailed the January employment report as evidence of the continuing strength of the economy and steady pace of job creation." In a statement, Treasury Secretary John Snow said, "Today's report again demonstrated the strength of our economic momentum."

Job growth, meanwhile, is coming from sectors such as education and health services, financial activities, and professional and business services. Educational and health services has added 1.8 million jobs since February 2001, while financial services employment has grown by 369,000. Professional and business services, which includes technology firms, has yet to regain all the jobs lost in the recession, but has added nearly 540,000 in the last year, including 25,000 in January.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2005/02/05/jobless_rate_falls_to_52_/

The Boston Globe specifically says that there was NOT A NET JOB LOSS during the past four years. (2001-2004) The economy gained 119,000 jobs overall - not great, but hardly a "negative job growth". And, since then, the job growth has actually improved. As I posted below, in both 2005 & 2006, job growth far exceeded population growth - creating an actual "squeeze" for labor. And who was there to meet that demand? Immigrants, of course. Immigrants will come as long as there is an unmet demand for labor. In fact, if you can find any pattern at all from these numbers, it's that job growth is actually rising at the same time that the "immigrant population" rises. If anything, the numbers would seem to suggest that immigration actually helps spur job growth - as the Harvard Business School study suggests.

But I'm not stating that, or anything else beyond the fact that your statement about "negative job growth" was, simply, wrong. Your statement that job growth hasn't kept up w/population growth is also wrong. The number of jobs is growing faster than the population. Here we are in a situation where we are creating enough jobs for our own citizens - w/more job creation than population growth. There is an increasing labor demand as job growth outpaces population growth each year. The fundamental contention of your post is incorrect. (Don't even get me started on the "potential job-busting recession housing bubble," etc.) I'm not posting this to say everything's wonderful - job growth is not uniform & some sectors are being outsourced (manufacturing, etc.) I'm posting this to say that the fundamental "statistics" you're citing aren't true. You can't construct a real theory about the effects of immigration if you're basing it on untrue "information." There are valid reasons for both positions, but those positions need to be based on the real evidence on this issue.

[earth mom]

384. Exactly.

Thank you for summing this issue up so well. :applause:

People around here need to take the blinders off and see the harsh reality of the future.

A future that is extremely grim-not only for them but for their children and grandchildren.

[Marie26]

385. Economy job creation numbers are wrong

"The economy has to create 2 million jobs a year just to keep up with population growth, and we haven't been anywhere near that figure for several years."

The United States must create 135,000 - 200,000 jobs per month to keep up with population growth. As it creates more jobs than that, the jobless rate declines. In March, the US created 211,000 jobs, and the unemployment rate fell to 4.7%. In Feb, the US created 243,000 jobs. In fact, over the past year, the US has created 2.1 million jobs, far outpacing the 1.8 million jobs necessary to keep pace w/population growth. You state that the US has not created "anywhere near" 2 million jobs a year over the past several years, and that is simply wrong. http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0506/Nov21_05/15.shtml

211,000 jobs created in March - Jobless rate falls to 4.7%

Baltimore Sun - April 8, 2006

The U.S. economy created 211,000 new jobs in March, and the unemployment rate unexpectedly dipped to 4.7 percent, according to a Labor Department report yesterday that underscored the labor market's continuing improvement.

The latest report affirms that "momentum in the job market is still very strong," said Danske Bank economist Peter Possing Andersen. But the report also appears to raise the likelihood that the Federal Reserve will continue tapping the economic brakes through interest-rate increases.

The number of jobs employers managed to create was only modestly higher than the 190,000 economists had forecast, but it was a solid performance nonetheless. Although several million Americans remain jobless and many others are only able to find part-time work, the job picture has improved so much that economists are growing fretful about the possibility that labor costs may spur inflationary pressures.

"The good news for the economy and workers is that the job market is in great shape," said economist Joel L. Naroff, of Naroff Economic Advisors. "But for businesses and the Fed, this may not be great news."

The nation needs to generate about 150,000 new jobs monthly just to keep up with population growth. As job creation outstrips that break-even level, as it has for some time now, the jobless rate declines - and worries over wage pressure begin to surface.

Excluding the go-go employment years of the late 1990s, in fact, March's 4.7 percent rate matches the "lowest jobless rate in 32 years," noted BMO Nesbitt Burns economist Michael Gregory.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.economy08apr08,0,6451643.story?coll=bal-careers-headlines

[Elwood P Dowd]

386. You are way off

The economy had negative net job creation in the private sector until recently. Surely you don't trust Bush's Labor Dept job figures do you? The REAL unemployment rate is probably close to 10%. The Bush crowd has created new ways to manipulate the job creation and unemployment figures. Here are some more links.

http://edworkforce.house.gov/democrats/releases/rel3504.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02112006.html



http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/%7BE9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03%7D/LONG_ROAD_TO_ZERO.PDFhttp://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02112006.html

[Marie26]

388. Sorry, try again

That is a 2004 news release. And it quotes the job creation from one month, February, in 2004, over two years ago. How does this prove that US job creation hasn't kept pace w/population growth for 5+ years? How does this in any way disprove the statistics regarding the job growth in 2006?

And even your old link doesn't show that the US had "negative job growth" in 2004. The numbers dipped in February, and rebounded over the next months. Overall, the US added more than 2.2 million jobs in 2004 (also outstripping population growth).

2004 Job Creation Is Best in Five Years

The Associated Press- Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:29 MST

U.S. employers added 157,000 workers overall to their payrolls in December, bringing the year-end total of new jobs to 2.2 million, the best showing in five years. The unemployment rate held steady at 5.4 percent.

The Labor Department reported Friday that the 2.2 million new jobs created in 2004 were the most in any year since 1999, when employers added 3.2 million positions, based on a government survey of businesses.
http://www.digitalcaffeine.net/newap/D87FDA3G0.html

Your second link goes to a generic home page w/lots of articles. Is there one article in particular there that you think proves your post?

Yeah, I think I will trust actual Labor Dept. statistics over a DU post, or a random link to nothing. I'm starting to understand why you didn't provide any links in the OP. The facts are inconveniently in the way of your thesis.

[Elwood P Dowd]

390. You're quoting cooked books from Bush's lying Dept Of Labor

From the AFL CIO....

Jobs Crisis in America


The nation's economy has nearly 79,000 fewer private-sector jobs than when President George W. Bush took office.


During the last full month before Bush took office in January 2001, the unemployment rate was 3.9 percent. In March 2005, the official U.S. unemployment rate was 5.2 percent—representing 7.7 million unemployed workers. The manufacturing sector has lost nearly 2.8 million manufacturing jobs since January 2001.


http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/jobs/jobcrisis.cfm

[area51]

411. unemployment rate

Here's an interesting interview (pdf) w/an economist who thinks the actual unemployment rate is 12%. Personally, I think it's higher than 12%.

[Elwood P Dowd]

387. Some more info for you

That estimate comes from the Labor Department's "birth/death model." You can look up these numbers on the Department's Web site.

As staggering as the assumption about new companies was in March, the Labor Department got even more brazen in April. Last Friday, it was disclosed that these imaginary jobs had been increased by 117,000 to 270,000 for the latest month - because, I guess, the stat jockeys got a vision from the gods of spring.

Without those extra 117,000 make-believe jobs, the total growth for April would have been just 171,000 - sub-par for an economy that's supposed to be growing at more than 4 percent a year, but right on the pros' targets.

Take away all 270,000 make-believe jobs and, well, you have the sort of pessimism that the political pollsters are seeing.

<more>

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2004/05/what_are_they_s.html

[Elwood P Dowd]

395. From the Democratic Senate

Plus, I will give you all the links in my file.

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=sr-109-2-1


The Bush Economy in 2005: Middle-Class Squeezed, Future Prospects Undermined

January 10, 2006

<skip to>


While working families work harder, their wages continue to decline. Working families are working harder and earning less today than they were at the start of the Bush Administration. Average household income for working families when adjusted for inflation was $46,058 in 2000 and has since declined to $44,389. At the same time, families have seen their real wages decline, the productivity of the American worker is up 13.5 percent. Therefore, Americans have worked harder - and more productively - over the past five years and received none of the benefits for their hard work. (U.S. Census Bureau; Bureau of Labor Statistics)

Worst private sector job growth since Hoover Administration. A growing economy should be good news for those seeking jobs. But over the course of President Bush’s five years in office, his Administration has the worst private sector job creation record since Herbert Hoover more than 70 years ago. This translates into an average annual job growth rate of 0.2 percent per year in the private sector since 2001. (Joint Economic Committee Democrats, 12/7/05) The manufacturing sector, often the source of jobs with good pay and benefits, has lost almost 3 million jobs since the start of the Bush Administration. This lack of job growth is particularly troubling given that we are so far into the economic recovery. Payroll employment grew by only 108,000 in December 2005; it was not uncommon to see monthly job gains of 300,000 and even 400,000 during economic expansions under previous Administrations. (Economic Policy Institute, The Boom That Wasn’t, 12/19/05)

Unemployment has increased and long term joblessness has nearly doubled. In part because of this failure to create a sufficient number of jobs, the national unemployment rate stands at 4.9 percent which is 17 percent higher than the 4.2 percent rate when President Bush took office. Unfortunately, once unemployed, America’s workers also are staying unemployed longer. As of December 2005, nearly one in five of the unemployed had been out of work for more than 26 weeks. The number of long-term unemployed has nearly doubled since President Bush took office.

Here are all the links.....

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02112006.html

http://www.americanprogress.org/atf/cf/%7BE9245FE4-9A2B-43C7-A521-5D6FF2E06E03%7D/LONG_ROAD_TO_ZERO.PDF

http://uspolitics.about.com/b/a/145081.htm

http://edworkforce.house.gov/democrats/releases/rel3504.html

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2004/05/what_are_they_s.html

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/jobs/jobcrisis.cfm

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=sr-109-2-1

[AZBlue]

401. Excellent post! Kicked & Nominated!!

Thank you!!!

[Marie26]

403. ARRRGHHH!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :argh: OK, I feel better now.

[Elwood P Dowd]

404. Marie, the links you requested are above.

:)

[Marie26]

406. Elwood, it would take me

a decade & a half to wade through all that. But I'll respond after I've had a chance to look at it all. Cool? Thanks for the links.

[EFerrari]

405. Ignore is your friend, Marie26. It's a good tool.

:)

[Elwood P Dowd]

409. I have a different take on ignore

I know where you're coming from, but I don't ignore anyone. Even if they call me names, such as racist, bigot, KKK member, and the others thrown at me on this and previous threads, I don't mind their input or duking it out with them. Sometimes I win, sometimes they win, but maybe we all learn something during the contest.

[Bluebear]

410. Here we go again.

:banghead:

[AllieB]

420. The comments on this thread are disgusting

not-so-thinly veiled prejudice is not a Democratic value!

[Bluebear]

422. Thank you.

:hi: