If our president was insane or unfit for office, whose job would it be

[The Backlash Cometh]

to make that determination, who would he/she tell and what process would we have to go through before he is removed?

I'm just wondering because all this talk of going into Iran with nukes when our military leaders, Congress and the public is totally opposed to it suggests that Bush is disconnected in a serious way. To make this kind of leap when the mainstream media is reporting all the misdeeds and corrupt acts from his Administration that have occurred in the last five years suggests some seriously flawed thought-process is involved. Or maybe his inner circle is responsible for keeping opposing opinions at bay, but then we have just as serious a situation on our hands.

[Strawman]

1. Read Section 4 of the 25th Amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

It would be the Vice President's job.

The VP and a mjority of the cabinet would have to notify Congress of their determination that the President was unable to carry out his/her duties. The President could protest and then Congress has quite a bit of latitude in appointing a body (maybe even a group of psychiatrists) to determine whether in fact the President is unable to carry out his/her duties.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHH!

Why did I ask?

[Strawman]

7. That's what sucks in this instance

The VP has to initiate the process, and he's nuts too. So is the cabinet.

The remedy to an out of control President and VP in this instance would be impeachement.

[Canuckistanian]

6. Cheney and the leaders of Congress????

Good luck with that.

Shrub would have to be lying on the floor convulsing and foaming at the mouth - Nah, even then, the true believers wouldn't remove Dear Leader.

[Strawman]

9. Yep. Post 2006 impeachment is the remedy here

Not the 25th Amendment.

[MuseRider]

15. No, to his supporters

that would be a religious experience.

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. The problem is...

The President can override a declaration of disability. The 25th Amendment is designed to address physical disability, such as was the case with President Wilson, and not mental or emotional disability. The president can be effectively removed from office, but if there is a conflict, it is up to Congress to effectively impeach the president. See Amendment 25, Section 4:

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

If there is a conflict between the President and the rest of the Executive Branch over the President's fitness to hold office, then the President remains president on his own say-so until Congress impeaches him. If the president is really that unstable, starting this process could have disasterous consequences far beyond just letting him stay in office.

[Strawman]

16. What would be a better alternative?

You don't want to make it too easy to remove a President from office if his "disability" is not obvious. I'm curious what you would suggest. This is an interesting Amendment.

It seems like if the Vice President and a majority of the cabinet (these are loyalists from the President's own party) say he/she is nuts, my guess is that 2/3 of Congress would agree.

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. I'm not saying this is a bad thing

I'm just pointing out that the 25th Amendment isn't suited for dealing with mental instability. And that even if the rest of the Executive Branch and two thirds of both houses of Congress agreed to remove him, the President still has power to act until actually removed, which can take almost a month to effect.

[Strawman]

23. My guess is that the Congress would act quickly

The have to meet within 48 hours. The VP and Cabinet of have already said the President is mentally impaired. It would be over quickly.

And in the interim, I would imagine that there would be some informal, extra-legal checks on the President's ability to do anything. Kind of like when the military had an understanding to ignore any orders by Nixon to launch nukes before he was effectively forced to resign. Presidential power relies on persuasion, even the most self exectuing orders (e.g. hitting the nuclear button) require that he/she persuade members of the executive branch (including the military) to carry them out.

What's scarier to me is the fact that this process can only be initiated by Presidential loyalists. That's how a disabled president will stay in office too long. It may have happened that way in Reagan's case.

[daveskilt]

24. written before the nuclear football.

mental instability didnt have the same punch or potential for disastor 200 years ago

[Strawman]

27. It was adopted in 1967

Drafted in 1965 by Evan Bayh's dad, Birch Bayh.

[darkmaestro019]

21. Wow, I was close, actually. Heh. First Officer and stuff....

So that's out. Anyone better than I apparently am at voodoo?


Oh wait, scratch that. We're not allowed to wish negative things at the Resident Weasel.

http://anniesj.livejournal.com/331112.html#cutid1 not even in a Judeo-Christian way, so I can imagine what anything less traditional would result in.

[cassiepriam]

29. What if the VP is crazy too? nt

[NYC]

3. It is my understanding that Woodrow Wilson

was incompetent (after a stroke), but that was concealed.

[Strawman]

12. Yes. It would have been interesting if we had the 25th Amendment then

I've also heard there were discussions of possibly having to invoke it at some point during Reagan's second term due to Alzheimer's.

I'm pretty sure it was invoked when he was shot and Poppy was "Acting President."

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. Nah.

Al Haig was in charge then.

[NYC]

22. Didn't Alexander Haig declare himself acting president?

I think he did.

[Strawman]

25. Yeah, based upon all the authority that came from talking out of his ass

"I'm in charge here!" What an ass-clown.

[NYC]

28. It made me laugh at the time.

:)

[Roon]

30. I was a little kid when Reagan was shot

and I knew better than Haig.

[TechBear_Seattle]

14. He was one of the reasons for prompting the 25th

It took a few decades to get it to pass, but the idea was first floated after Wilson's stroke, when his wife was effectively running the country. A part of the reason for that is that the Constitution was not clear on what should happen. I'm not sure what prompted it to get passed, though.

[mondo joe]

4. I think this guy has the sole authority to remove command powers based

on being mentally or medically unfit.

[maddiejoan]

11. ooooh ya beat me to it!

:)

[mondo joe]

17. It hardly matters anyway - all he has the power to do is relieve command

which then automatically goes to the number two officer.

[JDPriestly]

5. If.............?

Is there really much question?

[Alamom]

8. Didn't "Bones" die a year or so ago ? (maybe longer)..eom

edit: clarity

[Canuckistanian]

13. What if the one making the determination were insane, too?

Where's the section for that in the 25th Amendment?

[darkmaestro019]

20. I wonder this too. Can we get Spock and Bones to remove him

from command?


(sigh) :hide:

[genie_weenie]

26. The governments of the US

have taken great pains to ensure the America people living under their control do not have the ability to remove them besides the very controlled (and often falsified) periodic elections.