There is NO "pro ILLEGAL immigration crowd" here.

[UTUSN]

We Dems are NOT for "illegality". We are FOR humane treatment of WHOMEVER and WHENEVER. And for civil rights of WHOMEVER and WHENEVER. We are not for "OPEN" borders and we are not for "CLOSED" borders.

On edit: "NO pro ILLEGAL immigration crowd" here.

[Critters2]

1. Me, I'm for Union workers and a living wage

Ain't I a Democrat?

[UTUSN]

21. You're a Dem & so am I. Just add civil rights for everybody n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

2. There must be another DU out there or something.

Indeed there is a pro illegal immigration, anti-US worker crowd here.

[LostinVA]

4. Not one person on DU is anti-worker, no matter how much you keep

trying to stir the pot on these threads..... might be time to use the old Ignore button... yup... think it is....

[Cobalt Violet]

36. No loss here.

[nonconformist]

139. That's like supporting the troops and being for the war nt

[LostinVA]

149. No, it isn't -- and your post doesn't make any sense anyway

[Iris]

183. I agree. When one worker is treated badly, we all suffer.

It doesn't matter what color their skin is, what language they speak, or what genitalia they were born with.

[tyedyeto]

7. I'm not pro immigration or anti-US worker but ...

I am pro-human. Someone who believes that people who come to the US, as so many of our ancestors did, do so to help their families. They come because of the 'promise' of the great american dream.

[Critters2]

11. Tell that to those whose wages have dropped

or whose jobs have gone to the lowest bidder.

[UTUSN]

13. Would those be stoop laborers from HERE? n/t

[tyedyeto]

19. And what ancestry do you have?

Did they come here because they were persecuted? Or because of the economic advantage here vs. where they lived previously?

[Critters2]

38. My German ancestors fled persecution for being pacifists

and liberals--losing side in the Prussian revolt of 1848. What's your point?

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tyedyeto]

46. Not playing 'race cards'

just making the point that unless you are native american, you should consider yourself an immigrant. My ancestors came here for both economic and persecution reasons when it was much easier to migrate here. And I have no idea if they were 'legal' or 'illegal' at that point in history.



I guess we should send the Statue of Liberty back since we no longer accept what is written at her base. :sarcasm:

[Critters2]

49. Yep there it is

My European ancestors were legal. My Native American ancestors (I'm 1/8 Menominee), would like you to stop using them for your little political games. As if you really care about them.

[tyedyeto]

55. So, who is legal and who isn't?

And when in history (any day before today) does one become non-human in today's 'illegal' eyes? To me, that is what the right wing mentality thinks of these people seeking a better life. They are criminals in every sense of the word?

[Critters2]

57. An act which violates law is an illegal act

The act of immgrating without going through the legal process is, by definition, illegal immigration. But you knew that. People aren't illegal, their behavior is...as in "illegal immigration". A person who immigrates is an immigrant. A person who immigrates illegally, see above, is an illegal immigrant.

:eyes:

[sheelz]

54. Yes, wages have dropped and so has hours.

Here are the choices where I live:

It's either hours or wages. Lower wages and more hours or higher wages and fewer hours. That was then.

This is now...

Low wages and fewer hours. Or unemployed/underemployed.

[Critters2]

58. You say that like it's a bad thing...

where's your compassion? :sarcasm:

[sheelz]

81. I'll give you some compassion...

We have no jobs here. I don't forsee it getting any better. It's a hope thing. Wages and hours are so bad here I can't pay the rent this month. It's only $375.00 a month. Where the hell do I find I find a cheaper apartment?

My co-worker can't get food stamps because she make 22 cents too much. Another co-worker was denied food stamps because her wages were $1.20 over the maxium. To add insult to injury, we work in a grocery store and we drool over what people on food stamps buy. And it's getting worse because they are cutting hours. BTW, we're in a union and earn minimum wage.

Perhaps, my "compassion" will come back. I hope people won't loose theirs.

[Critters2]

82. We're on the same side here

I guess I wasn't clear. I agree with everything you've written. Come to Iowa and see what's happening with the meat and egg industries. Used to be good-paying union jobs. No more.

Your union isn't serving you well, btw. You should look into being organized by someone else.

[sheelz]

115. I know we're on the same side...

so that wasn't directed at you. :pals: It was my mistake not to say so. I was responding just like your previous post of "compassion" wasn't directed at me. It seemed like a good place to rant. I thought I'd tell what is really happening out here. Some people don't get it. I think they will in time. When it's too late and the damage is done.

My union is not serving us at all. Only 3-4 people show up for union meetings. They don't care and don't understand. All they know is they pay union dues for a minimum wage job. They would rather have it in their pocket.

Our warehouse workers went seven years without a raise. They had to strike for two weeks but they finally got it! Altho, it's only $1.50 over for the next three years.

The CEO and CFO earn 1 million a year. Co-workers are shocked when I tell them. I hope to be in a better job rather than looking into organizing. I can't afford to stay their too much longer.


Thanks for your support. Keep at it!
:yourock:

[Critters2]

120. God, it pisses me off!!

Corporate scum!

Solidarity forever!

[sheelz]

133. Corporate scum pisses me off too.

Corporate just came out of bankruptcy (a management tool) to justify what their doing. It's their second bankruptcy. It makes employees feel sad for the corporation and it's top scum. Oh, the SEC is after them. They have again extend the deadline for delivery of audited financials for 2003, 2004 and 2005. Now they are cutting our hours and remolding the store. Yep, they're scum!


Get this...NY had an increase in the minimum wage Jan. 1st 2006. NY minimum wage went from $6.00/hr. to $6.75/hr. My co-workers are pissed about the minimum wage increase. Some co-workers were making $6.25/hr. (after a raise) while others were earning $6.00/hr. Because we're all at the same wage now they are pissed. They "lost" the .25 raise. I couldn't believe the outcry over higher minimum wage. And they "take it out" on each other for a minimum wage part-time job. It's really ugly.

Peace

[UTUSN]

18. "pro human" ----------I LOVE it!!!!!!!1 n/t

[tyedyeto]

27. That is how I view all migrants

Whether they are coming to this country or any other. They are all humans who should never be 'illegal' when all they want is a better life for their family.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. There are a lot of people who sell crack to help their families too.

Or poach endangered animals or club fur seals. Do they get equal sympathy?

Illegal is illegal.

[High Plains]

83. Illegal is illegal...and sometimes the law is an ass.

Face it, our immigration laws bear little resemblence to reality. There are millions of undocumented workers integrated into our economy. They're not going away, short of a police state mobilization for a mass round-up. We should acknowledge their presence and legalize them, either as temporary workers or on the path to citizenship. These workers need the right to join with native workers to jointly improve their lots.

As for "illegal is illegal," that's a silly argument. Exceeding the speed limit is illegal, so is mass murder. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, undocumented workers violate no criminal law; it's a civil violation.

[Critters2]

87. Depends on how they go about it

Forging government documents, like SS cards and the like, is a felony. Illegal immigrants and/or their employers do this all the time. Leaving the country after being here without a visa, or with an expired visa, and then returning, is a felony.

A good many illegal immigrants are already felons.

[High Plains]

97. More paper crimes.

I wonder what happens with all that money paid into the Social Security system with those forged cards.

All this talk about criminality, and all we've got are paper crimes. Status crimes.

[Critters2]

107. You don't consider forgery a crime?

Interesting.

[High Plains]

117. No, I really don't worry a whole bunch about forged SS cards.

Should I?

[Critters2]

119. I learned that my SS number was being used for illegal employment

of an immigrant. It starts to matter right about then.

[High Plains]

123. So what happens then? I'm really curious.

Does that mean you get more benefits when you retire?

Does it mean the Social Security fund gets a little bigger?

Does it harm you in some way?

I mean, I can understand how it might be disturbing, but does it harm you?

[Critters2]

129. First, the SSA is smart enough

to know that two people working in two different places clear across the contry probably aren't the same person. So, they write the person who first started using the SSN, and ask her to verify her address and workplace. She finds this letter a bit odd, so calls the SSA to see what gives (letters from the gov't asking for my personal info make me nervous). She's told that this kind of letter is sent when two people turn in w-4's with the same SSN. She asks whether she has been the victim of identity theft. The nice lady at the SSA says probably not, that illegal immigrants and their employers do this to avoid being caught by the powers that be. But, it MIGHT be identity theft. So, she puts a credit watch on all her accounts, and sweats for several months about who has her SSN and what they might be doing with it.

And I know that someone out there has my SSN. And access to all that an SSN provides.

But, no biggy, right?

[LostinVA]

151. Right -- if you have a forged SSN card

Then the "Illegals" ARE paying taxes, are paying into SS, etc.

[lumberjack_jeff]

165. ... and getting medicare and food stamps, or taking a job from a citizen.

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. Whether the law bears little resemblance with reality...

... is not necessarily the fault of the law.

Immigration laws are vitally important, and the fact that they're poorly enforced is a big problem. I frequently read the opinion of people who say that they're "not going away", and it's okay because "they'll integrate into society" or "they'll unionize".

I never hear them say what they're going to do about the unremitting flow of illegals who come after them. I guess it's because what they really mean is: "Cool! Lettuce is only 39 cents a pound!"

[Misunderestimator]

155. Illegal is Illegal? LOL.

It was illegal once for women to vote... illegal for a black person to marry a white person... illegal for a black person to live free... illegal still for gay people to marry and in many states to adopt... illegal until a short time ago in many states to have oral sex. Illegal isn't always wrong. Comparing the illegality of someone entering this country in order to get a job to support their family with poaching endangered animals and clubbing seals is disingenuous at best.

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. How so?

It's illegal for a good reason, unregulated immigration harms the interests of the citizens of that country.

Comparing the righteous struggle of suffrage or emancipation with the desire to make a quick buck on the other side of the border is beyond silly.

... and it frankly pisses me off. I'm sick of being in the minority party, and those who care more about the interests of illegal immigrants than the interests of citizens aren't working toward the same goal I am - taking this country back from the corporate oligarchy that currently rules.

We won't win, ever, until we get on that page. Democrats are supposed to represent working folks.

[Misunderestimator]

168. Right, ok... migrating here illegally is just like clubbing seals.

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

177. Yeah, kinda. Except the "seals" are people... US citizens.

:spank:

This ain't an academic exercise. There are millions of americans who lost good paying jobs and the benefits that went with them due to illegal immigration. People have lost their lives in this process.

Blame it on corporatocracy, or blame it on republicans or blame it on the immigrants. I don't care, but one thing is clear - the undocumented immigrants have demonstrably broken the law.

[Warpy]

8. Links, please

otherwise that post is just a gratuitous insult.

[Cobalt Violet]

14. Do your own research.

[Warpy]

16. I see, you failed to provide a link

so it was just an insult.

Alert.

[Cobalt Violet]

25. Isn't that against the DU rules?

[mike_c]

9. I am pro-immigrants and PRO-WORKER, and a union member....

I support ALL working people in America, no matter where they came from or what their status. If they are working to feed their families and make a better life then they are my brothers and sisters. That includes you. Solidarity!

[UTUSN]

15. Thank you, my bro n/t

[tyedyeto]

22. .

:yourock:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

26. Here at DU? Which Duers?

I haven't seen any such DUers. Who are you calling xenophobic, and KKK crowd?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

70. I wouldn't call them those names mentioned above, now deleted.

But I do remember some posters advocating denying health care which I agree is inhuman.

[MercutioATC]

76. Oooh! That sounds like one of my posts!

'What part of illegal don't you understand?'



:hi:

[electron_blue]

3. Are you going to speak for us on everything else, too?

[UTUSN]

6. No, just for me and you n/t

[stillcool]

5. my...but people get all hepped up over buzz words...

they can't seem to grasp "human-rights"...or 'humanity' for that matter. I think it's the fear that does it. Sad.

[Strelnikov_]

10. ..

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Hear Hear!!! Well Said and Spot On!

:toast:

Very true and wise words my friend.

[UTUSN]

17. Thank you, just referring to that 400+ thread here n/t

[jsamuel]

23. People are acting like reactionaries

Everyone is accusing everyone else of hating each other without listening to each other's positions. This is something we can find a common solution to if people will just start listening to each other.

[leftstreet]

42. It's the anonymity

And a barrage of meaningless talking points.

I doubt many here would engage in an over-the-fence conversation with a neighbor, then accuse the neighbor of being a racist for wanting to talk about border security or employment security.

[EFerrari]

45. I haven't been anonymous on this board for some time

and I talk to all my neighbors.

[leftstreet]

51. I don't know you

:rofl:

:hi:

[EFerrari]

53. Count your blessings.

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

116. LOL!

:rofl:

[Mnemosyne]

24. Pro-humanity here! n/t

[MercutioATC]

28. EXACTLY! Some just support amnesty for illegal acts.

Then they're not ILLEGAL any more! Problem solved!

:sarcasm:

[UTUSN]

29. Ummm ... n/t

[jsamuel]

32. Amnesty doesn't solve the problem and neither does building a wall.

Governments build walls when they are incapable of solving their problems (Berlin, anyone?)

[Critters2]

34. That's brilliant!

I gotta use that next time I get a traffic ticket...."Hey, there, officer, how 'bout a little amnesty? I promise to be good from here on out!"

[EFerrari]

41. By the same logic, abolitionists were all felons too. n/t

[MercutioATC]

47. Nobody's talking about felons here...just people committing illegal acts.

And we're certainly not talking about slavery.

The issue is this:

It's pitifully childish to argue "We don't support illegal immigration, we just want to make all of the illegal immigrants legal".

If somebody's going to take a stand, they should have the cojones to be honest about it.

[EFerrari]

52. It's not childish to be against a practice that f#cks everyone

but big business. Yes, it is tantamount to slavery. It is literal slavery in many cases. Wake up and smell the coffee.

It shouldn't be such a huge leap to see that undocumented workers are WORKERS and that they deserve the same respect any laborer does.

[MercutioATC]

60. They wouldn't be fucked if they'd just obey the law...

Big business only takes advantage of them because they're undocumented and could be deported. If they were here LEGALLY, that wouldn't be an issue.

Is it right for businesses to do this? Of course not.

However, it IS childish to defend somebody who breaks the law and then moan about their lack of legal rights.

They shouldn't have been here in the first place. They're NOT like legal workers, they deflate wages (precisely BECAUSE they're illegal and can be hired for less) and I think they're an affront to anybody who has taken the time and effort to legally reside in this country.


The problem won't be solved by granting amnesty to the 12 million who are here...they'll just be followed by another 20 million. It's dangerous to encourage things like this (IMO).

[EFerrari]

66. That's right. They'd be "legal" and they'd be dead.

Good thinking, progressive! :sarcasm:

[MercutioATC]

72. Dead? Isn't that a stretch?

I wasn't aware that everybody who didn't get to legally enter the U.S. died.

[smoogatz]

80. Dude. It's Free Market Economics 101.

If the undocumented workers in question could make a living wage at home, there'd be no incentive for them to leave and risk life and limb crossing the border, obviously. What's also obvious (or should be, anyway) is that if no one was hiring undocumented workers in the US, there'd likewise be no incentive for millions of foreign workers to come here, looking for jobs. American corporations do everything they can to encourage illegal immigaration (and discourage enforcement of labor laws already on the books) precisely because the influx of eager, undocumented workers undercuts the wage/benefit expectations of the domestic workforce. It's called "insourcing," and it's coming to an industry near you.

[MercutioATC]

84. On that, we seem to be in complete agreement.

I believe our FIRST step should to be to increase and enforce penalties to U.S. companies that hire undocumented workers. It would be a lot more effective and financially feasible than trying to simultaneously seal our borders and round up 12 million illegal immigrants.

[smoogatz]

95. Bingo.

So, question number two on the Free Market Economics Quiz: What's stopping us from enforcing existing labor laws? Answer correctly and you win the kewpie doll.

[MercutioATC]

109. Big business (specifically, big business' influence on politicians).

Where's my doll? :)



I agree that strengthening and enforcing laws that prohibit businesses from hiring undocumented workers would be the most productive vector (by far).

[smoogatz]

145. Right. But in order to do that, you have to completely rewrite

the laws governing campaign finance in this country. Completely.

[High Plains]

90. The law needs to reflect reality.

Clearly, the US economy has a huge appetite for workers from Mexico, who are quite willing to work hard at crappy jobs for little money (but would be even happier to be able to organize and get more money), but how many visas do we provide for Mexican workers each year? 20,000?

And I don't think there is any escaping amnesty for a large portion of these people. They're here, and they're not going away unless we resort to police state-style mass round-ups.

But I don't know what to do about those who will follow. Walling off the country isn't a solution I like. I don't think there is any short-term solution. In the long run, we need to think about improving conditions in Mexico and Central America. Reduce the "push" factor.

[Critters2]

96. Don't confuse the American economy with cheap labor conservatives

and unfeeling corporations.

[High Plains]

105. And everybody who benefits, i.e. American consumers

Undocumented workers are like Walmart. Everybody claims to not want them, but everybody shops there to save money. People bitch about undocumented workers, but they don't bitch about inexpensive fruits and vegetables, saving a couple of bucks on every meal they eat out, or saving a few tens of thousands of dollars on a new house. The undocumented workers are here because of million of people on both sides of the border making individual decisions.

[Critters2]

111. I don't shop at Wal-mart

I buy locally grown, organic fruits and veggies as much as possible. From Farmers Markets, or better yet, from my parishioners. If I want things not grown around here, I belong to a buyers club that provides organic things. I'd rather spend a bit more money than support a system of exploitation.

So, don't assume about "everybody".

[High Plains]

124. Okay, not everybody shops at Walmart.

Only just about everybody.

I salute you for your social consciousness.

[Critters2]

132. I honestly haven't been inside one for 5 years

though no one believes me when I say so.

[MercutioATC]

103. The U.S. has a huge appetite for cocaine, too...

...but the last I checked, we still didn't advocate "opening our borders" to coke.

I agree that it's a complex issue...one that would probably be best handled in two ways: 1) Help improve conditions in less-fortunate countries and 2) make this country less attractive my fining the hell out of companies that hire undocumented workers (thus drying up the labor market for illegals).

I'm not advocating mass round-ups either...just deporting the illegal immigrants we run across (traffic stops, hospital visits, etc). I know it sounds draconian, but I think it's much more responsible than encouraging others to enter this country illegally.

[High Plains]

121. Funny you mention cocaine.

You can have all the laws you want, and you can't stop the cocaine from coming.

You can have all the laws you want, and you can't stop the undocumented workers from coming.

I see real parallels between the drug war and the "war" on illegal immigrants. Both are doomed to failure because both are fighting human desire. I think this will be an issue until either the US economy implodes or the economies to the south improve.

[Critters2]

122. Which do you think will happen first...

hmmm?

[High Plains]

127. Well, a progressive is about to be elected president of Mexico.

Perhaps he will be more interested in job creation than Fox was. That would help. But having a progressive president can only do so much in this global economy. Those jobs that fled the US to Mexico are now fleeing Mexico for even lower-wages countries. Ah, capitalism, it's all against all in a vicious race to the bottom.

[Bridget Burke]

156. Even Fox proposed incentives to make Mexicans want to return...

To Mexico. That was at his FIRST meeting with Bushie. Of course, there was no response from our side.

López Obrador will probably try harder, though. Of course, Mexico's problems aren't new & will not be solved overnight. (Hey, we haven't solved all of ours.) That is, if the election is not stolen in broad daylight--as happened in 1988.

Some are already linking López Obrador with other Dangerous Leftist Thugs like Chavez & Castro. I'm sure we'll be seeing those opinions here after he is elected.

[RagingInMiami]

125. Pretty soon you'll be a minority

Gulp!

[MercutioATC]

170. This isn't a minority issue, it's an immigration issue.

I don't see any racism or xenophobia here, just a disagreement about how laws should be enforced.

[RagingInMiami]

172. If it wasn't for American greed through NAFTA

They wouldn't be here in the first place.

For every action, there is a reaction. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

[MercutioATC]

173. THAT'S an economic issue (again, not a minority issue)...

...and I disagree with your conclusion.

NAFTA or no, the U.S. would still have a higher standard of living than most other countries and would still be an attractive place to the poor...especially when we don't enforce our immigration laws.

[RagingInMiami]

175. NAFTA forced a lot of the farmers out of business

Which is why we're seeing Mexicans cross the border in record numbers these last ten years.

[MercutioATC]

179. Same reply...NAFTA or no,

we're still attractive.

That's not going to end until we start beefing up and enforcing existing immigration laws (including the penalties for employers who hire undocumented workers).

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

142. Sounds good to me, as far as immigrants go.

They shouldn't need amnesty in the first place.

[MercutioATC]

180. Try this:

Move to France without documentation. Try to get a job there. Try to get social services there.

It won't happen. Know why?

Because France has the intelligence to realize that they can't provide a decent living situation for their workers if a bunch of illegal workers flood the job market.

The term "illegal immigrants" should be your first clue...they entered the U.S. illegally . They broke the law in coming here in the way they did. To be legal immigrants (something which I'm not advocating), they'd HAVE to receive amnesty.

To say that illegal immigrants "shouldn't need amnesty in the first place" is just silly.

[doc03]

30. There is a pro-illegal immigration crowd here

I am all for people from everywhere legally immigrating to this country, but I am also pro-worker and Union. Most of all I am against employers exploiting immigrants in order to drive down wages of American workers with no meaningful penalties.

[UTUSN]

31. & I'm also for ANYBODY *not* being exploited for & by WHOMEVER n/t

[Critters2]

64. Illegal immigrants allow themselves to be exploited

by breaking the law in the first place.

[MercutioATC]

74. Got Nomex?

I completely agree, but you're gonna see a few negative reactions for stating that reality.

[Critters2]

77. Puttin' on my flameproof suit as we speak!

Thanks!

[smoogatz]

91. I know, I know. Feeding the trolls.

But hey, it's a slow night here in la casa de smoogatz. The way I see it, undocumented workers are bold, adventurous risk-takers in the grand tradition that's been the hallmark of every great wave of immigration to America. Historically, every new wave of immigrants has challenged the status quo, and made life a bit uncomfortable for those who came before them--but who failed to move more than a rung or two up the economic ladder. If you want to take the Social Darwinist argument, we should encourage this sort of competition because it breeds greater productivity, and forces lazy and unsuccesful domestic workers to work harder and expect less in the way of compensation. If your job is threatened by undocumented workers, it's because you've failed in the free market global economy--and now you want the government to step in and protect you. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Critters2]

94. My job isn't threatened.

My job requires a fluent command of the English language perhaps before any other skill. I'm perfectly safe.

But your argument must sound mighty compassionate to the African Americans and others who are getting screwed by illegal immigration.

Social Darwinism. Aren't we above that?

[smoogatz]

99. Bwahaha!

Right--them dumbass Messicans can't speak no English. I forgot. Yeah, you've got nothing to worry about. Hilarious.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smoogatz]

106. Let me guess:

Judging from the tenor of your remarks in this thread, I'd guess maybe laundromat attendant? No, that's too complicated.

[Critters2]

108. BWAHAHA

My parishioners would find that amusing, too

[smoogatz]

144. Parishioners? Egad.

You're some sort of priest/minister/preacher, eh? So tell me, Reverend, Who Would Jesus Deport?

[Bridget Burke]

158. Which denomination?

Inquiring minds want to know.

SBC?

[Critters2]

112. You feel superior to laundromat attendants?

That's a pretty progressive position! Congrats!

[Bridget Burke]

157. And all the African-Americans speak Ebonics....

So they aren't a threat to Mr "I speak fluent English" either. Only those lower-class African-Americans are being threatened by the immigrants.

(NOTE: I know most African-Americans don't speak Ebonics. )

[High Plains]

130. What would Jesus do?

[Critters2]

131. He'd expect employers to pay a living wage

[smoogatz]

161. Listen to the Reverend mycritters. It's in Matthew somewhere--

right after Jesus denies loaves and fishes to the Samaritans because they're undocumented.

[Critters2]

181. He wouldn't want employers paying a living wage?

That's a surprise.

[smoogatz]

186. In my reading of the Gospels, he was silent on the subject.

Mostly he talked about helping the poor. But I shouldn't have to tell you that, Reverend.

[Critters2]

182. What makes you think Jesus wouldn't consider BOTH

the poor in Mexico AND unemployed American workers among "the least of these"? That's my objection to allowing open borders. It does NOTHING to solve the problem of poverty in Mexico, which is the root problem after all, and harms the poorest American citizens, many of them African American and Latino.

There's no easy fix. And I have never advocated denying basic necessities to those in need.

Jesus wasn't in the habit of lying about those with whom he disagreed.

[smoogatz]

187. Your obsession with the criminality of undocumented workers--

who only break the law to feed their families--strikes me as remarkably UN-Christian. What does it matter who is the least of "the least of these"? We rich (relatively speaking) Americans help to perpetuate the system that keeps Mexico poor, and keeps a steady supply of willing workers flowing into the US: our government and institutions like the G8 and World Bank perpetuate it; bogus "free trade" agreements like NAFTA perpetuate it; our bullshit non-enforcement of our own labor laws and our bullshit keep-them-illegal-so-we-can-control them (and underpay our own workforce) immigration policy also helps to perpetuate it.

[EFerrari]

35. Bull. There is no one here who believes illegal immigration

is an answer.

And this "law and order" standard was first promulgated by Repulican racists after the Civil Rights Act was passed. Did you know that?

If you are indeed prolabor you should have no trouble understanding that undocumented workers ARE LABOR and natural allies of the Labor movement.

[doc03]

59. Bull! I have read many posts that want us to open our

borders up and take in anyone of the several billion people that can get here. So, now I'm a racist since I am against Companies bringing illegals in as workers so they can exploit them. First of all they break the law by illegally entering the country, then they break the law again buy not paying income tax, then again by not paying SS, then again by driving without a license or insurance, is there any laws we should obey today, or do they only apply to Citizens?

[MercutioATC]

61. You're banging your head against a brick wall, Doc...

...but I'm right there with you.

:)

[doc03]

62. I know but it's fun to try some times.

[EFerrari]

65. Then I will leave both of you to your amusement and go

back to actual conversations.

[MercutioATC]

73. Ummm, your next post (upstream) was to ME.....

I'm not sure I know how to take that. Are my posts simply amusing or are they "actual conversations"?

:shrug:

[doc03]

86. Well, I just went back and read your posts

and see we are on the same page. I really hadn't read your posts until now, some posts are so idiotic they stand out from the others and you just can't help responding to them. I have noticed one thing here on DU if the subject of immigration or guns come up we are just as divided among ourselves as we are with the Republicans.

[MercutioATC]

89. Yeah, I know we do...

I was posting to sfexpat2000 who left in a huff because you and I were just "amusing ourselves", only to post her very next post to me.

[nonconformist]

138. Then why is it when anyone brings up the lowering wages

Or any of the other inescapable economic truths, they are summarily flamed/dogpiled?

[LostinVA]

153. I know -- I am sooo tired of the "law and order" crap

RW Primer-Speak 101.

[Cleita]

43. The only pro-illegal immigrant crowd anywhere are

the freepers, including our President, because they like the cheap labor especially as domestics. Most of us think that a better solution can be found other than building walls, rounding them up and incarcerating them and the many other mean things many people want to do to the poorest and most helpless of people who just want to work.

[PublicWrath]

67. BUSH WANTS PEMEX as well as cheap labor

Bush wants to trade liberal immigration laws to Fox so he can get the Mexican legislature to open the national OIL company to foreign development!! HALLIBURTON

[Cleita]

102. It figures.

They really are trying to open the gates of Hell!

[tyedyeto]

69. .

:applause:

[rman]

136. Employers do not drive down wages by exploiting immigrants,

corporations drive down wages by lobbying Congress.

And they facilitate illegal immigration by lobbying for immigration legislation that sets very low quota on (legal) immigration.

And they lobby for Trade Agreements that include reduction of worker's rights in Mexico, giving Mexicans reason to move to the US.

The govt subsequently turns a blind eye to the hiring of illegal immigrants.


Where is that pro-illegal immigration crowd you mention in your subject line?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

143. I'm pro-legal immigration. Make it legal for people to come here.

As in open borders.

[DeaconBlues]

33. There isn't?

Hell, you could've fooled me. I actually read posts from people who advocate giving the southwestern U.S. back to Mexico.

[Critters2]

37. I read those, too

I was told California rightfully belongs to Mexico, so I suggested giving it back. And then I got flamed. Can't win for losin'!

[msongs]

44. actually somebody else had it before mexico did :-)

unfortunately some people can only go back one step at a time to that status which suits their arguments.

If its gonna be given back, let's evacuate everybody and let the plants and animals have it.

the plants and animals are doing a great job taking back my part of it, especially if it doesn't stop
raining soon!

Msongs
www.msongs.com/impeachbush.htm

PS - we study the history and culture of the first known humans in this area. their concept was that the land did not
"belong" to anybody and nobody owns it.

[EFerrari]

48. Agreed. I hope we haven't made her cry with our behavior. nt

[Critters2]

50. That's cool with me!

Let 'em have it!

[Cobalt Violet]

40. Got to be careful with opinions like yours.

I just got called "And there is a Buchananite, xenophobic, KKK crowd as well" in this tread for stating a similar sentiment.

[justice1]

68. My priorities

1. family and friends
2. community
3. state
4. country
5. world

It's not an issue of hating people, it's that this country is in such bad shape, I am focusing on those problems that need immediate attention.

[tyedyeto]

71. And what is the priority of these so-called 'illegal' people?

Family!!!

[Critters2]

75. Then they should work to improve the country where their family is

[MercutioATC]

78. If you're going to insist on making sense,

I'm going to have to ask you to leave.

;)

[Critters2]

79. Sorry

My job requires it, so it's become a bad habit. I'll be more careful!

[entanglement]

85. Why didn't your ancestors stay back to improve the country

where their family was instead of coming here?

[tyedyeto]

88. Leave ancestors out of the debate

or you will be called a racist.

:sarcasm:

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:




That is what I was told upthread.

[Critters2]

100. I didn't call you a racist

On the contrary, you implied I was a racist, and I called you on your race-baiting.

Maybe this is all too complicated for you.

[Critters2]

92. They tried

They were political refugees, expelled from Germany after the Prussian revolt of 1848.

So, I'll be impressed if the majority of illegal immigrants can honestly say that they took huge risks to improve the political system of their homeland, before being expelled. If they came here without trying to change things back home, I'm not impressed.

[entanglement]

113. Fortunately, whether or not you're impressed matters very little

to the people immigrating here to improve their lives. And you damn well know that not everyone who came to America did so for political or religious reasons, but for economic reasons. Following your convoluted thinking, the Irish should have stayed home and suffered through the Great Potato famine.

[Critters2]

114. You asked about my ancestors

I told you about my ancestors.

[EFerrari]

118. Where "suffering" means "starving to death". Exactly. nt

[MercutioATC]

93. RACIST!!!!

(see, tyedyeto was right)


:)

[justice1]

162. The Irish were often forced here

My family arrived in the 1600's, after Oliver Cromwell destroyed the country. The English used many of the same arguments to bring the Irish here, that companies use today.Their argument was the colonies needed the cheap labor. The Irish lacked immunity to ward off diseases in the America, as well as poor treatment, resulted in a high mortality rate.

Interesting that their contracts were to be about 6 years in length, sound familiar? The colonies started passing laws making it more difficult to ever fulfill their contracts. An example, women had their contracts extended for becoming pregnant.

It was about this time, they started transporting Africans to the colonies. The benefits of the Africans is they didn't have to "seasoned", they had better immune systems, and the second was they were easy to identify, should they run away. Laws continued to be changed which led to slavery.

There are to many similarities between the past and present. If a person is to come to the U.S., they need a path to citizenship. I suggested it before, we have a ceiling of 70,000 asylum seekers a year. We have only been taking in about 50,000. I suggest a lottery system, for people who live in third world countries using the difference. The government would know who was here, and the immigrant would have resources available to them, making the transition easier.

[petgoat]

147. Frequently they are working to improve their home countries.

That's why they send so much money home. A dollar here being worth five dollars there, many
of them save and sacrifice and live cheaply in illegal dormitories and specialize in the
fast buck.

[stepnw1f]

160. Yeah... Tell That To Your Ancestors (nt)

[QC]

98. But...but...but...why do you hate brown people?!?!

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

104. I don't hate all brown people

Just ones of a certain shade of brown. That red maple bark color. It clashes with EVERYTHING!! Why can't people like that JUST STAY HOME!!

[EFerrari]

126. You may want to check the books because undocumented

workers don't take more than they contribute to this society. That's just wrong. It's a rightwing talking point that seems to have taken hold. Even here, which is profoundly disappointing.

Just because you are powerless doesn't mean you don't contribute to an economy.

I completely understand that many of us, me!, are concerned about our future and the our kids' future. But it is a mistake to see these workers as a threat to our futures, let alone, to demonize them when there is nothing Mr. Rove would like better than to distract us in that way.

Look for the real numbers, the facts. And think, what kind of liberal blames a worker for their labor? That's whats happening here. It's a dodge.

[nonconformist]

137. Actually, there is a 9 billion dollar discrepancy

http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~economic/econ104/immigrat/

[EFerrari]

163. From the same source:

"Estimates of tax payer burden range from an annual surplus of $27 billion to a deficit of $40 billion depending on the assumptions made."

[AtomicKitten]

110. Skinner has it about right.

"... So, inevitably, people on DU who are too lazy to support their own positions simply accuse the other side of being freepers or corporatists or racists or whatever. Which is totally lame."

I think this issue is more complex than yet another chance to divide. And I resent it being brought up by the GOP to do just that. We should be smarter than that and capable of discussing this thoughtfully.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

134. I wonder what Paul Wellstone would have said about this.

I wonder if he would have favored round ups

I wonder if he would have favored the criminalization of poor working people.

I wonder if he would have favored the fragmentation of millions of families.

I don't think so. And I think he would have sided with the workers.

[AtomicKitten]

135. of course he wouldn't

and I hope you aren't suggesting that any Democrat would.

[nonconformist]

140. They're not. It's a straw man. nt

[loyalsister]

141. not so much "pro" anything as opposed to injustice

This argument falls apart for me at the very beginning because the focus is on differences between people who have been placed in a category that is closely associated with race and culture.
It is exploiting bigotry and it is wrong.
If anyone tries to deny that racism is being exploited in the same way as Nixon's "Southern Strategy," read the LTE below.


"My idea is if we don't want 'em, then don't sell them anything. Have a picture ID green card before being able to purchase anything.

Sure, it's racial profiling......

If you don't provide sustenance for them, in time they will go away. Am I a bit bigoted? I'd like to think so in this case."

Roger Poe, Springfield

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060413/OPINIONS03/604130349/1006

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

146. I'm pro-making the "illegals" legal. Amnesty and open borders.

[petgoat]

148. They're taking jobs that are needed by young black men. nt

[ulysses]

176. oh, horseshit.

Why, specifically, are the jobs immigrants take the jobs of young black men? Are young black men relegated to certain job sectors?

[NaturalHigh]

150. You're joking, right?

[librechik]

152. Oh really? I thought that forum was right next to our "Pro-Abortion" forum

:sarcasm:

I wondered why nobody every visits there...

[El Fuego]

154. Making someone return to Mexico isn't inhumane

The assumption that only the American way of life is the only one worth living is arrogant. And racist too, since the implication is that we have to save them from the fate of living among other Mexicans.

[Bridget Burke]

159. I agree.

Even those who propose opening the Borders--a definite minority--would END illegal immigration.

Most of us just want a humane alternative to the Republican plan. The plan that has been changed because people dared to Protest.

I won't name names, but xenophobia thrives.

[Mass]

167. I agree.

[Cleita]

169. So the main bitch I am gleaning off of these posts is that

immigrants are responsible for the state of the economy and the unemployment many claim they are suffering from. So they must be lined up, incarcerated and deported because they did something illegal. This illegal was likened to selling crack, etc., which incidentally are felonies. Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanor for all those who want to go all law and order on this.

So it really seems stupid to me to blame an underclass of people for all these problems instead of the legislators who created these problems, Republican administrations and Republican Congresses since Ronald Reagan.

Those are the people who set out to bust unions, deregulate business, water down our labor laws and who have refused to raise minimum wages for decades now. But I guess it's much easier to blame those least able to fight back instead of a bunch of fat cat legislators who are laughing all the way to the bank with our tax dollars.

[stevietheman]

171. I support a form of amnesty, but definitely *not* a guest worker program

What I support is amnesty for the crime itself--that is, migrating to our nation illegally.

I absolutely do not support any forced deportations that the regressive right is pushing -- that would be Naziesque and the United States of America should *never* go there.

What I do support is this:
o Working a *lot* harder to tighten up border security. We basically have very lengthy, unsecured borders. That must change.
o Drying up all the jobs that illegal immigrants currently hold by going after the companies that hire them with super-stiff fines. I admit that this wouldn't work so well with respect to domestic employees, but no plan is perfect.
o Encouraging illegal immigrants to leave at their leisure, and the government will provide relocation assistance if they should need it -- no questions asked.
o Establishing a living wage in the United States -- and indexing it to inflation. And companies that don't pay the living wage will face super-stiff fines.

That's my program to deal with this problem.

[MercutioATC]

174. Aside from the issue of deportation, I agree 100%

...and even though I'm in favor of deportations, we'll be endlessly bailing this boat if we don't first stop the leak (both border security and substantial penalties for employers who hire undocumented workers).

[Ksec]

185. Actually we already have a guest worker program

And we tried the amnesty thing twenty years ago. Since then weve gained betwenn ten and twenty million illegals . The myth is that these amnesty programs will help. All it does is encourage more illegal immigration.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iris]

184. Thank you.

I've been trying to figure out a way to say this and this is a good start. Most of my political beliefs are based on an admittedly idealistic vision, but it's what I come back to time and time again. We are all on this earth together as human beings first. Pretty much all of my political opinions take into account my belief that we should treat all human beings with dignity and respect.