2009: 100 mpg Toyota Prius

[midnight armadillo]

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109981

TOKYO — Expect something amazing from the next Toyota Prius — like fuel economy that pushes past the 100-mpg barrier.

Due in two years as a 2009 model, the next Prius is set to be an evolution, company sources say. The hybrid will retain the same basic 1.5-liter hybrid drivetrain. But Toyota is now on a mission to do two things: drive the economy ratings skyward, and cut the associated costs by 20-30 percent.

{more at link}

[benburch]

1. Dog bless them!

The planet needs this.

[Solomon]

22. Damn ben. I love that. "Dog bless them!" Did you make that one up?

[benburch]

126. Yes, but I'm probably not the first to use it!

Too obvious.

[mucifer]

2. I wonder how much energy is needed to produce the car battery and how

toxic this battery is. I have read that plug in electric cars actually require lots of burning of coal to produce the electricity to run the car. Very toxic. Hopefully someone will study this and tell me I am a pessimistic crazy person.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

6. Electricity comes from many places....

Coal, wind, nat. gas, water... now we need to work on getting rid of the ones that pollute. :)

Oregon is working on more wind farms...
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8GTV6RO1.htm?campaign_id=apn_home_down&chan=db

[physioex]

9. Correct....

Here in WA you can choose to purchase a portion of your energy from renewable. Which we gladly pitch in a modest amount more every month......

[Mugu]

130. Nor should we tolerate the ones that harm birds or fish. N/T

[Viva_La_Revolution]

140. When do you plan on stopping all your electricity use?

If Wind is bad, and Water, and Coal, and Gas, and Nuclear... I guess you're going to be outta luck, unless you install Solar. Let us know how that goes for ya.

[Mugu]

170. Maybe I’ll just get a Prius and plug my house into it.

I’ve looked at solar, but in my neck of the woods it makes no sense (too far North). The panels would be lucky to produce as much energy in their lifetime as it took to manufacture and bring them to market. Add to that the problem of keeping them clean, storing energy for night and cloudy days, plus inverters for items that don’t like AC. The payback period is very, very long if not infinite.

There was a company that wanted to build a wind farm on the cornfields to the South of me, but the objections were numerous. Bird deaths, noise, ugly, and on and on, you would have thought that they wanted to conduct atmospheric nuclear explosions. I don’t know if the farm will ever be built.

It just so happens that on a clear day I can see the steam plumes from the stacks of the nuclear plant 25 miles West of me. I guess that’s where I’ll get my electricity until something better comes along.

[recoveringrepublican]

211. damn your header made me giggle. Needed a laugh thanks! nt

[NickB79]

155. Well, wind turbines no longer harm birds

The blades were redesigned years ago to spin more slowly, allowing birds to see them more easily and avoid them.

Dams are a problem though for fish, with no real solution found so far.

[madokie]

216. seems to me that dams is a necessary evil, without them we would

have many life threatening floods. I don't think they have a detrimental effect on the fish per sei. Sure the Sandie's, white bass cannot go up any further on their spawning runs but they are doing ok in the streams and tributaries to the lakes. Sure the spoonbill are stopped but then again they seem to be doing ok. If you have the water held back for flood control why not use the enormous potential for generating electricity. The blades on the wind generators are turning at such a slow speed they are of very little danger to the birds so why not use the potential energy to generate some electricity. With all good things comes some bad. Recognize it for what it is and work to correct it. I am not ready to give up my comforts of electricity or the freedoms of the automobile, sorry. I would like to see more mass transit though. I would love to go out here in a little bit and hop on a bus and go eat a big breakfast, do a little shopping and then come home all for a buck or so it would cost me in transportation.:shrug:

[Tesha]

219. Dams have doomed many anadromous species of fish

Dams have doomed many anadromous species of fish such as
salmon, shad, and sturgeon.

The Atlantic salmon is the classical example on the east coast.

We're still struggling to find techniques to allow these fish
to both be able to travel upstream beyond the dams and for their
spawn to survive the ride downstream again without being turned
into pate' in the turbines.

Tesha

[Tesha]

19. Car batteries are highly recyclable.

Car batteries, even fancy high-tech hybrid car batteries,
are highly recyclable.

And the hybrids at least don't use lead-based batteries.
Nickel today, lithium tomorrow.

Tesha

[EVDebs]

115. eVionyx and zinc-air fuel cell batteries...? Stand alone or combined with

hybrid ICE tech ? The hydrogen fuel cell PEMs are based on a platinum catalyst; Zinc Air Fuel Cells are based upon potassium hydroxide catalyst and zinc oxide pellets. Platinum costs how much an oz. ? Zinc on the other hand costs only 50 cents a pound !

[Flubadubya]

20. Don't these hybrid engines charge the battery during the gasoline phase?

I don't think they are ever actually "plugged in" to an eledtrical source. I may be wrong, but I thought while they are in the "gas" cylce that the battery is recharged then. :shrug:

[dogday]

21. That is what I understood as well nt

[lectrobyte]

40. Yes, you just get gas every week or two, just like any other car.

It recharges from the engine, or from recovering energy that would be lost when you use the brakes.

[Don Claybrook]

45. yes and no

some hybrid owners have rigged up power outlets in their garages so as to give the hybrid a full charge at night while it's parked. This results in them getting better mileage. And of course they use more home electricity, but I think I recall reading that the drain was fairly negligible.

So there's been somewhat of an outcry among hybrid owners for Honda and Toyota to make the cars "pluggable" straight from the factory. I believe Toyota, at least, is considering this.

I read most of this in Scientific American, fwiw.

[okieinpain]

179. yet the genius's at ford say, some american's will still buy big suv's

[0007]

253. For a while anyway......They'll come around in time or be out of

business.

[freethought]

54. Hybrids recharge by 'regenerative breaking'.

If you are driving a Prius and stuck in gridlock, your gasoline engine isn't running. The car moves at low speed by an electric motor and the battery. This is a great idea since a gasoline engine does its worst at slow speeds or idle. Once you get up to certain speed, I don't recall how fast, the gasoline phase takes over. I hear that the changeover is seemless.
The recharging takes place when you apply your brakes. When you engage your break, that kinetic energy is turned into electrical charge.
There is almost a certain beauty to the system.
Ford and GM STILL don't get it. They still have SUV tunnelvision.

[ContraBass Black]

74. If the gasoline engine were made to turn the generator itself,

There would be no gain in efficiency, just more equipment.

As for Ford and GM, they got it a decade ago. They just haven't gotten it to sell yet.

[Tesha]

168. There's still a gain in efficiency.

Gasoline engines have some (pretty arbitrary) speed at which
they are most efficient. In an ordinary, mechanical-drive car,
the engine turns at a wide range of speeds, only occasionally
operating at its most-efficient speed. In particular, when
you're idling, the engine is 0% efficient and when you're
accelerating heavily, the engine is doing pretty poorly as
well.

By comparison, hybrid (engine-generator-battery-electric
motor) technology allows the engine to spend far more
of iits time either operating at the speed that allows top
efficiency or the engine is shut off completely.

The big point is that the battery acts as an "accumulator
of energy", both allowing the engine to operate more
efficiently and recapturing the car's kinetic energy when
braking, energy that would otherwise be wasted as heat.

Tesha

[iconoclastNYC]

106. They get it now. But they missed the boat.

Patents have taken over.

[madokie]

217. Yes and also as you decelerate. For an experiment check out the temp

of the brakes rotors/pads after a stop, careful though because they get real hot. Lots of wasted energy there, in fact you had to pay for the gasoline to make them that hot in an around about way. Batteries are all recycleable, or components therein are. Plug-in hybrids are the future, not fuel cells nor hydrogen.

[Lochloosa]

53. You don't "plug in" the Prius.

It charges it's own batteries using the heat from braking and when needed the 1.5 liters engine in it. This engine only starts when needed.

[LostinVA]

58. This has NO "plug in" battery... none of the Toyota or Honda models do.

[kestrel91316]

207. I think the plug-in version of the Prius IS available in Europe, IIRC.

[ContraBass Black]

67. You're right, nothing is free.

The batteries are improving, though.

[Lorien]

135. Batteries are a small concern compared to CO2 emissions

and the Prius has the lowest emissions of any car on the market. Wht is this important? Watch this: http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_classics/aninconvenienttruth/

[ContraBass Black]

144. The issue is that the emissions from batter production are important

Though they're in a different location. If more pollution is created overall in making the components, it isn't really a gain.

[longship]

118. Lithium Meta Hydride

The Prius uses LiMH batteries.

AFAIK, they are non-toxic.

[Paulie]

151. Prius uses 12 modules of NiMH, Nickel Metal Hydride batteries

Widely available Lithium Ion batteries like those used in cell phones and laptops still have the fire issue, though technology is coming along to make them inert.

[longship]

159. Ooops!

I meant Nickel Metal Hydride but my fingers typed "Lithium". Obviously I was thinking of the other battery technology "Lithium Ion" when I typed it.

Thanks for the correction. I'll attempt to correct it.

on edit: Apparently edit time has expired.

[Paulie]

200. No prob. :-)

Honda and Ford use D-Cells.... that's some old tech! :D

[Lorien]

134. You don't plug the Prius in; the gas engine charges the battery

there is a HUGE GOP/ Exxon/ Mobile disinformation campaign being waged against hybrids right now, so take some of what you read with a grain of salt.The Prius leaves a much smaller CO2 footprint than any other car on the market, making it THE vehicle for those who are concerned about the very real threat of climate change.

[4_TN_TITANS]

161. A hazmat nightmare, if wrecked...

If you look at hybrids from the First Responder / Volunteer Fireman perspective, they are quite scary. Nobody wants to get close to a wreck involving one of those - thousands of volts of electricity, leaking battery acid, etc.

[ptolle]

164. source

Do you please have a source for this assertion. I'd dearly love to see the raw data, basic research that underlies the statement.For a start I'd be hard-pressed to believe that Toyota didn't consider this in the design process. And as a poster above says there is an enormous disinfo campaign being run right now.I saw a poster at another discussion board I frequent make the claim that a hummer would use less total energy over its lifespan than a hybrid.

[Beaverhausen]

167. Wrong! Emergency personnel are trained to work with these cars

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/05/06/193627.html

[Tesha]

169. Horseshit!

"Thousands of volts"...

"Leaking battery acid"...

Puh-lease! The battery pack is about 300 volts and has clear disconnection
directions. It contains *NO* acid. These "first responder" concerns are bogus
bullshit stirred up by people who don't want Japanese hybrids to be succesful.

Tesha

[kestrel91316]

206. Yeah! 'Cause we all know that NOTHING toxic results from the production

and use of GASOLINE!

[Toucano]

3. What is "Japan's standard fuel cycle" ?

The article says that by their standard, the current Prius gets 99 mpg.

"Honda is currently winning the hybrid image war in Japan with the tiny Insight coupe, which manages 102 mpg in Japan's standard fuel cycle. The Prius is just a whisker behind at 99 mpg (35 km/l). But now comes news that Toyota is determined to hit 40 km/l (113 mpg) with the next Prius."

This probably less revolutionary than it sounds.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

4. "less revolutionary than it sounds" Yep

The technology has existed for a long time, they just didn't tell us about it. :mad:

[AtomicKitten]

5. so if we put one on order now

our number will be called about 2012.

[skids]

114. LOL. n/t

[Bluebear]

7. One in metallic pearl , please.

Good on them.

[DainBramaged]

8. Hi, my name is Joe average

I have 2 kids, a Lab, oh and my wife is wheelchair bound. We want to drive to North Carolina and bring all of our luggage (5 average suitcases, a food cooler, and of course, the wheelchair).

Will your hybrid be sutable for our family?

[paparush]

23. Dear Joe,

Thank you for your inquiry. For a family of your size, we might suggest you review the specs on the Toyta Highlander Hybrid.
http://www.toyota.com/highlander/index.html?s_van=GM_TN_HYBRID_HIGHLANDER

Not quite 100MPG, but still better than the average SUV. Plus, you may qualify for a Federal Tax benefit.

[DainBramaged]

44. Thank you for your immediate reply

But even with the $2600 Federal tax break, the Hybrid Highlander is still $6200 more than the standard Highlander, and only gets me appx. 4 MPG (estimated) highway miles better.


I will have to own the Hybrid many, many years before I see a cost advantage, and the repairs to Hybrids are beginning to prove more expensive than non-hybrid models.

I would like to thank you for that information, but I'm thinking about a steam powered ex-UPS truck now. :hide:

[The Stranger]

24. Hi, average Joe -- pack lighter and you'll be fine.

[DainBramaged]

38. Wrong answer.

I guess you didn't understand the part about the wheelchair and the dog.

[lectrobyte]

34. No, it's probably more a commuter car. Do you have more than

one car now? I have a Prius now, and it's great on trips. But for the most part, it is only 3 of us... If I had more passengers, a dog and a wheelchair to deal with on vacation, then I'd probably just rent a minivan or somesuch for a week or two. Or look into a Highlander hybrid.

[DainBramaged]

41. I said further down here it's a perfect commuter car

But you must realize my point. For the folks who are overwhelmed with smug because they own one, they are not the answer for everyone.

[lectrobyte]

47. overwhelmed with smug? nice!

[DainBramaged]

48. I guess you missed the episode of South Park about that.

Titled "Smug Alert!"

The make of the hybrid car is "Pious" which seems to indicate that the sanctimonious (smug) behavior of the hybrid owners is simply a metaphor for those who believe that they are a cut above others because of their religious beliefs.


http://www.tv.com/south-park/smug-alert!/episode/687553/summary.html

[lectrobyte]

50. Too funny. I haven't seen that show lately, but I'll try to catch it.

[DainBramaged]

51. I have absolutely no problem with hybrids, none

But until they match the price of non-hybrids, and out perform them by a substantial margin, they are not economically practical enough for me. I try to consolidate trips, not be frivolous about where I go, and hitch rides with friends. But I have to pick up three and four new PC's in boxes for clients quite often, and thy won't fit in a Pious.

PS,

South Park has retained it's bite, still fun to watch.:silly:

[wackadoo wabbit]

222. Oh, I bet they'd fit.

You'd be amazed at what you can fit in a Prius.

Our local Ikea had a sale a few months ago, and we bought a dining room table, four chairs, an etagere, and a bunch of other stuff that I can't recall right now. We had two of those large trolleys worth of stuff by the time we were finished.

So anyway we roll our trolleys out to the loading area, and I go to get the Prius while my husband watches our trolleys. When I get back, I see that ours is the only car; everyone else has a monsterous SUV that they're loading. But we had bought at least as much stuff as anyone else. I'm sure people thought we were crazy, that we couldn't possibly fit all that stuff in our (comparatively) teeny, tiny Prius. (To be fair, my husband was a bit worried about this, too.) Well, we set to work loading, and everything fit like a charm. We even had enough room left over for a couple more chairs if we'd been so inclined.

As we drove off, our Prius comfortably but not overly full, I checked out some of the SUVs. Believe it or not, we actually had more room left in our car than many of their owners had in their gas-guzzling SUVs.

Viva la Prius!

[DainBramaged]

226. What a wonderful story, want to buy me one then? I can't afford one.

[chopper]

231. asdf

MSRP is a lil over 20K. waddya want it for, free?

[Bigmack]

66. Guilty as charged!

But I only feel smug when I watch an Escalade or Armada or Behemoth fill up at the gas pump.

Otherwise, I just drive....

Trying to do my own tiny little part to help.

[DainBramaged]

181. But an Armada is a beloved Import, blashpemy blasphemy

:sarcasm:

[iconoclastNYC]

107. Why does it always have to be about YOU?

[DainBramaged]

174. What do you care, who it's about, jealous?

You have a problem with my posts, pm me or shut up.

[Kolesar]

109. I think the minivan is the *real* product that would benefit from a hybrid

drivetrain. Commuter cars are already rather economical as it is. Huge reductions in the rate of liters per mile will be achieved with the bigger vehicles. Black or yellow?

[LeftyMom]

116. No, but Toyota sells two hybrid minivans in Japan

Hopefully we'll get one here in the US before too much longer. I can't imagine what the delay is, I imagine they'd sell very well.

Meanwhile, the Highlander hybrid would probably work nicely and unlike most SUVs it's very safe.

The Prius is really too small for my needs, too.

[Renew Deal]

136. The Hylander Hybrid should work for Joe

http://www.toyota.com/highlander/index.html?s_van=GM_TN_HYBRID_HIGHLANDER

[chopper]

147. wow

since when does your 'average joe' has a disabled wife?

i've got an idea, joe; make a car choice based on how you use a car for 95+% of your driving (commuting, shopping, groceries etc), not the occasional vacation. and when vacation comes, just rent a lousy minivan.

or you can get some behemoth of an SUV that you only use to its full potential like 3 times a year.

[NickB79]

156. LOL, perfect response

"when vacation comes, just rent a lousy minivan"

It seems that renting a vehicle for the rare occassions you need a larger one is completely impossible for some people.

When my girlfriend moved 85 miles to move into my apartment, I rented a cargo van from Hertz Rent-a-Car (the local U-Haul was out of moving vans, it was finals week on campus and everyone was moving). It cost ~$75 for a 24-hr, unlimited mileage rental, and I think I put in ~$25 in gas before I returned it. It took two round trips because it wasn't as big as the U-Haul we wanted, but it worked out well nontheless.

Renting a vehicle for moving large amounts of people and cargo a few times a year is an excellent option, and saves a lot of money compared to buying an SUV.

[girl gone mad]

165. It's just an attempt to rationalize a decision..

which is based on desire rather than actual need.

My cousin just had to get an SUV with 4 wheel drive for the one weekend a year that she goes to my Grandpa's farm (which has no roads).

[DainBramaged]

175. It was an example, are you simply ignorant of all possibilities?

[NickB79]

183. Shall we design all cars to fit all possibilities?

Rent a minivan for the hypothetical vacation you posted about.

[DainBramaged]

185. We design cars AND trucks to fit all possibilities now

We took a train, boarded the dog. No one thought of Amtrak, not one of you. Silly Pious owners. Sell your cars and use mass transit.

[chopper]

215. asdf

i take mass transit practically everywhere i go. nobody brought up amtrak because we're talking about a choice of cars.

what i really like is how you make fun of prius owners for being snobs by acting like a total elitist. yeah, that's not hypocritical.

[DainBramaged]

225. I don't care what you think, so there

[Tesha]

220. "Pious": do you really think you'll convince anyone by insulting them?

Just wondering.

Your style of argumentation seems very counter-productive to me.

Tesha

[chopper]

214. asdf

"are you simply ignorant of all possibilities?"

are you ignorant of what 'average' means?

you discount hybrid cars like the prius for the 'average joe'. when in fact, if 'average joes' would wake up and realize that a car like the prius is perfect for 95% or more of their driving, they'd realize that the real reason they don't want a car like that is because they've fallen hook, line and sinker for the tripe madison ave keeps spoonfeeding us about how you aren't a man if you don't drive a huge honkin' car.

yeah, there are people that need 4WD all the time. guess what, they aint your average joe.

[DainBramaged]

224. (Sigh) I stated in one of the earliest posts they are perfect

commuter cars. And as has been the case throughout this thread, those of you who so quickly defend the Pious never stop to think (as I said before) that so many of us here just can't afford one. And when GM releases either the Saturn Vue green or hybrid Malibu (as I said before) I would try to one day afford one of them since I do not wish to buy a Japanese hybrid but a Domestic one.

With that I leave most of you with this,

Happy Egg and Candy made up HoliDay

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

230. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chopper]

232. asdf

don't get all pissy at me cause you got called on a disingenuous argument. your entire line of argument here has been to insult prius owners as some kind of elitists who are telling people to get a lavish vehicle that noone can afford (yeah, $21K is *really* expensive for a new car these days, what's the average new car price, like $27-28K?)and making up stuff to try to fit that viewpoint.

[chopper]

235. BTW

what i especially like is how you're sending me nasty private messages, but don't allow any responses. nice.

[Shakespeare]

238. He's done the same thing to me. I assume he does it frequently.

And it is flat-out, yellow-dog cowardly.

NOBODY in this thread was 1. insisting that EVERYBODY should by a hybrid, or 2. being elitist if they happen to own one. Most of the comments were either, "hey, that's cool" or "I love mine!"

The dude SERIOUSLY needs to get over himself.

But I especially love the spineless little trick of sending a nasty PM and then blocking a response. Fucking coward.

[Vexatious Ape]

10. Just bought a Prius...

And I'm NOT getting the stated 51-60 mpg. Love the car and I know it's the best one out there for mpg's but what am I doing wrong here?

[DainBramaged]

12. Nothing, they lied.

"These figures may not reflect your driving cycle or individual situation.

When the new Fed standards for actual millage come out next year, you'll see about a 20% drop in the numbers on the window stickers. And if you have more than one person in the car, your millage may vary. And if you don't accelerate like a snail from stoplights or onto the highway, your millage may vary. And if you live in a hilly, mountainous or cold area where you have to warm up the car in the morning, your millage may vary.

[Vexatious Ape]

14. Thank's..

I thought is was something like that--I still know I'm getting better mpg's than all the christian fascist bastard's with Bush04 stickers in SUV's that surround me here in suburban Atlanta.

[DainBramaged]

15. Hybrids are perfect commuter cars, perfect for one or 2 people

And that is why they are typically small. The new breed of larger hybrids aren't worth the premium you have to pay over the standard non-hybrid models. And Ford is introducing incentives to move their Escape hybrids off the lots. No one seems to want them in numbers large enough to support them.


http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B901C8C41%2D0F5C%2D412E%2DAFA9%2DC50D4EFAA454%7D&dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&keyword=&print=true&dist=printTop


Nissan CEO says unsurprised about hybrid-vehicle market issues

>In a roundtable with reporters here at the New York International Auto Show, Ghosn - who also runs Nissan affiliate Renault SA (13190.FR) - said he "was the only guy" to question the move of some auto makers in recent years taking a headlong dive into the hybrid vehicle market. "I have some kind of satisfaction in being a little bit right on this one."

Ghosn, known for his ability to execute a convincing turnaround at the once-ailing Japanese car maker, said he has been saying for years that auto makers need to be cautious in gauging the hybrid vehicle market and insists that much of the media just looked at him like he was "retarded."

Earlier in April, Ford Motor Co. (F) began offering generous 0% financing incentives on hybrid SUVs. Also, Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) has scaled back some hybrid production in Japan due to weaker-than-expected demand.

Hybrids, which run on a combination of conventional engine power and batteries, appeared on the U.S. scene in the late 1990s and began picking up steam in 2003 and 2004 when Toyota and Ford began touting bigger, more functional editions of the alternative vehicles. Hybrids are celebrated for better-than-conventional fuel economy, but "people pay so much money" over a traditional car to buy a hybrid that it clouds the business case for making the vehicles, Ghosn said. <

[LostinVA]

61. As commuter cars, they are perfect for four people

Several I know who own them carpool together... and the four fit very comfortable... I've ridden with them a time or two, and again it's fine. And, this is for a 50 mile trip.

[DainBramaged]

80. (Sigh) Do any of you ever stop to think about those who

can't afford to buy one? Does it make sense that the world isn't always about new cars and expensive insurance to save a few miles per gallon. Survival is important to so many on DU, paycheck to paycheck is how many of us live, and many of you smug Pious owners will never get it.

[NickB79]

157. There are plenty of cheap non-hybrids that do well gas-wise

I drive my friends around in my Scion xA a lot, and we have no problem fitting 4 people in it comfortably.

City, 27-29 mpg average over 10,000 miles so far. Highway, 36 mpg at 70-75 mph, 45 mpg at 55-60 mph.

Cost? They start at $13,000 new.

[DainBramaged]

172. I already spoke about that

Why do Hybrid owners think they're better than the rest of us? The attitude in this thread is "we own hybrids, you don't, so you suck" no matter what a person's financial situation is.

How much like Freepers you all sound. You condemn them for driving (and always a broad sweeping generalization) gas guzzling SUV's, yet you all think you're dog's gift because you get better millage.

Tell ya what Pious owners, buy me a hybrid so I can be as smug as you all.....

[Blue_Tires]

189. lol....Ghosn is a self-serving scumbag

i'd expect him to bash hybrids since Nissan isn't making any, and he's been getting squeezed by the Honda/Toyota sales

[DainBramaged]

227. I think since he runs some pretty large car companies

And pulled Nissan out of the swamp, he is a little smarter than you or I. And I didn't read it as bashing hybrids, sorry that you did.

By the way, do you know what percentage of market share hybrid sales are. Automotive News lists the sales figures for all manufacturers every week on the last couple of pages.

1% last year, and they won't exceed that figure this year either. So much for that. When they become $12,000 cars instead of bloated cash cows for the wonder Japanese who are our trading partners and care about us (I laugh I made a funny), then you'll sell a million a year. Until then, oh well.:rofl:

[Blue_Tires]

234. for starters

someone can be much smarter than you or I and have a lot of power while still being a lowlife tool (i.e., Cheney)...and Ghosn will be changing his tune once Nissan finally gets their green cars out to the market--as you know, they were in bad shape financially, so there was no cash for R+D (if there was at the time, Nissan would already have their products out, imo...

$12,000? Nice to know you set the market price instead of the automaker...I think the Chevrolet Corvette is the finest car made in the USA today, and in a good year, they may make 30,000-35,000 units, which is a fraction of the 1% market share--CERTAINLY the Corvette and the public would be better served if it sold for $5,000 instead of $45,000, right? Just because you'd only pay $12,000 for it doesn't mean the rest of the buying public would...The bottom line is that those that want one can get one, and those that want to drive something else can do so as well...

Yes, they are more expensive now, but like ALL automotive technologies, the more widespread it becomes, the cheaper it will be relatively in the long run...Just like EFI, independent rear suspensions, 4-wheel disc brakes, traction/stability control, nav,the list goes on...

and believe it or not, hybrids are not the be-all end-all, and there are several technologies in various stages of development now...Some automakers are banking on next generation clean diesels (especially in Europe) while other automakers are looking at full-electric cars....we'll see what happens.

[DainBramaged]

245. Here we go

someone can be much smarter than you or I and have a lot of power while still being a lowlife tool (i.e., Cheney)...and Ghosn will be changing his tune once Nissan finally gets their green cars out to the market--as you know, they were in bad shape financially, so there was no cash for R+D (if there was at the time, Nissan would already have their products out, imo...

IMO means nothing. Ghosn still controls one of the largest car conglomerates in the world and we're debating on a blog. I think he's a bit more qualified to decide his corporations' future, not you or I.

$12,000? Nice to know you set the market price instead of the automaker...I think the Chevrolet Corvette is the finest car made in the USA today, and in a good year, they may make 30,000-35,000 units, which is a fraction of the 1% market share--CERTAINLY the Corvette and the public would be better served if it sold for $5,000 instead of $45,000, right? Just because you'd only pay $12,000 for it doesn't mean the rest of the buying public would...The bottom line is that those that want one can get one, and those that want to drive something else can do so as well...

I didn't set anything, your assumption is sillier than your opinion of he Corvette. My opinion was $12,000 would be a wonderful starting point for a hybrid, but of course you're smarter than Ghosn or myself. I especially enjoyed this sentence; The bottom line is that those that want one can get one, and those that want to drive something else can do so as well... I've been saying that for 24 hours, but since you're smarter than me, I though you would have read the entire thread.

Yes, they are more expensive now, but like ALL automotive technologies, the more widespread it becomes, the cheaper it will be relatively in the long run...Just like EFI, independent rear suspensions, 4-wheel disc brakes, traction/stability control, nav,the list goes on...

Thank you for that insight, demand always speeds up amortization and increases efficiency, lowering the price to the consumer while maintaining the same profit percentage (not necessary volume) as in the early stages of a product run out.

and believe it or not, hybrids are not the be-all end-all, and there are several technologies in various stages of development now...Some automakers are banking on next generation clean diesels (especially in Europe) while other automakers are looking at full-electric cars....we'll see what happens.

I spoke yesterday of the EV1, and of the fact that convenient diesel and ethanol stations were lacking, pushing back demand for the diesel which sell so well in Europe. But I also mentioned how horrible our mass transit systems has become (or never was) because previous generations never believed the oil would run out. If Venezuela gets it's way, One trillion bbls. (estimate) of heavy crude may extend the petro beast's life long after I'm dead and buried.

Good day, have a nice weekend, and thanks for your insight. :eyes:

[Blue_Tires]

246. glad you liked it

hope you had as much fun writing the response as i did writing the post!

later:hi:

[DainBramaged]

247. I have a headache too, be well

:toast:

[skids]

117. That's a bit harsh.

They didn't "lie" so much as those are the numbers they were forced to put on the sticker by the legal standards. They have, for the duration, made it clear that they don't like that fact, because they don't like it when customers feel like they didn't get what was advertised.

Now the individual car salesman may have omitted that conveniently, which would be a lie, but the company as a whole wants that as transparent as possible.

As far as one of your later posts, I do indeed think about people who cannot afford them. I often complain online about how hybrids are being sold with luxury options mandatory, and how Toyota really needs to do a stripped-down no-frills corolla hybrid.

[DainBramaged]

124. Thank you for reading my posts

Having auto dealers for clients, they and the manufacturers, just like the Bush misAdministration, lie, only their version is twisting the truth to fit the situation.

If they wanted to they could put anything they wanted on the sticker as long as they run the required EPA test. They could easily do a Car & Driver real millage test run and put it on the sticker too.

They don't because they lie. And they could squeeze 5 to 10 more miles per gallon if they cut the weight 500 lbs and horsepower by 25. They lie and say they can't. They lie because it's all about profit and the shareholders.

[Lorien]

143. I know plenty of Prius owners who average 50-65 mpg

they didn't lie. The Prius gets very high MPGs in the warmer months and lower MPGs in the cooler months-it's the average over the year.

To Prius owners it's not just about gas mileage, it's about CO2 emissions. Prius has the lowest emissions of any car on the road. Why does this matter? Watch this: http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_classics/aninconvenienttruth/

[Javaman]

163. Exactly, the issue is people need to change they way they drive...

If you drive a hybrid like it was a gas only car, you will get lower than the posted mileage.

However, if you apply some simple things in your driving habits you can get well beyond the stated MPG amounts.

I recently read an article about people getting upwards of 100 mpg in a Prius. It can be done, but you know, we are Americans and no one can tell us how to drive, you know?

[lectrobyte]

36. I get in the mid 50's. Until it had a few thousand miles on it, I

could never get about high 40's. I can do even better if I really pay attention to the displays, but I tend to just get in it and drive.

[DainBramaged]

56. And the point should be just get in and drive

Why does driving have to be a contest to see if you can gain that extra one or two more miles per gallon better every time you start the car? Why can't we just get in, get 50MPG average combined millage, and be happy we've made a smaller footprint?

Toyota has cut back production estimates for hybrid production in Japan too. And then just a few minutes ago it hit me. Motorcycles. No one talks about riding motorcycles to save gas. Why even drive a car (even like the Pious) when you can ride a bike to work? Bikes between 250cc and 1,200cc will get anywhere between 45-70 mpg.

[LostinVA]

63. Driving your GAS car correctly, ie not wastefully, will increase your

mpg quite a bit, too. There are just many people who don't want to do that. You can't just get into any car when gas is almost $3 a gallon and just drive. It has nothing at all to do with hybrids, etc. Just wasteful driving habits.

on edit: motorcycles. Because they are not practical for most people. You talk about they not being any room in a Prius??? Bikes have zero room. Can't take your kids to school, can't drive it if you live in very cold weather, have to wear a skirt, etc. Not practical.

And, you are starting to sound like you have a problem with hybrids.

[DainBramaged]

75. See post #51

And your explanation of why motorcycles are impractical is my point about hybrids. Put your kids in a sidecar. Wear extra clothes in winter, ice spikes on the tires. Add saddle bags for storage. As with the explanations from those who think hybrids are for everyone, I can come right back with a reason you should be on a motorcycle.

Until you want that new refrigerator delivered to your house. Then you're in trouble. The aerodynamics go to hell on a Pious with it tied to the roof. And you can only do one at a time and have to go back to get another. What a waste of gas.:sarcasm:

[NickB79]

158. Most places deliver large appliances for a small fee

Such as refridgerators :eyes:

Is it hard coming up with so many excuse NOT to drive a fuel-efficient vehicle?

[DainBramaged]

173. You missed the point completely

Should all of us wear sack cloth and beat ourselves bloody because we don't own a hybrid? This is America, I'll drive what I can afford and for those of you who think imported hybrids are better than anything else made, fine, form a smug club so you can pat yourselves on the back.

[trekbiker]

182. I'll be happy to join the "Smug Club" when that new version

of the "Pious" comes out. I got a 76 Vega you can have for cheap.. hell, I'll give it to you. and a few extra engine blocks (you'll need one about every 60,000 miles). just think, a free American made car... then you can form a "Born Loser" club and cram your "average Joe" family into it for a nice sunday drive..

[DainBramaged]

184. Stop, you know as well as I do that sore loser

belongs on your head for bringing up a mistake from 30 years ago, and it is a fine way to punish the workers and engineers of today.

And speaking of joining, join my ignore club, It's more fun to watch the words "ignore" come up when ever you respond to one of my posts. And it's fun guessing if it's you or someone else.

[NickB79]

186. Well, when Peak Oil puts gas to $10/gallon

I suspect a lot of people will be wearing sack cloth, along with hand-me-down clothes and shoes.

YOU seem to miss the point that if we don't start making MAJOR sacrifices NOW voluntarily, we will be forced to make even more painful sacrifices a few years from now.

Yes, it's a sacrifice to have to drive a smaller, slower car in order to get better gas mileage. But it saves gas, which buys us time to come up with alternative fuel sources when we go over the Peak. And from the current news reports, it appears we are either on the Peak now, or will be in only a few years time.

I honestly don't care if people drive hybrids, ride bikes, ride trains, drive small Toyotas, Hondas and Scions, or walk to work. So long as they reduce their oil consumption, I'm happy. I don't want to be smug, and I don't want to pat myself on the back. I want to help find a way to prevent the catastrophe that will befall this planet in the next few decades as Peak Oil hits, climate change becomes more severe, and food production falls short of demand.

[DainBramaged]

187. And I'll bring this last point up again before I go to bed

Until we control the Congress again, NOTHING we hope for is going to get done. Nothing. And the money you spent buying a hybrid is going overseas, not home to help our gross domestic product. Just our trade imbalance.

Good night.

[lectrobyte]

95. I do get in and just drive. 53 MPG. If I really work at it, I can hit

58 ~ 60MPG. And by working at it, I mean not zooming up to red lights, keeping foot out of it, etc. And thats with the AC on, and going 75~80 on I-540, weather and NCHP permitting.

[Nobody]

199. By driving for increased gas mileage, you're driving safer

When you don't come to sudden stops, you get maximum battery charge time, and you're still moving and adding to MPG. The people behind you don't have to slam on their own brakes either. You're also increasing the life of your brakes by coasting to a stop instead of zooming to those red lights and slamming on the brakes.

One of the original Prius test drivers for (I forget the magazine, sorry, or I'd insert the link) was able to keep the Prius on electric while going 40 mpg. He accelerated slowly so the gas engine didn't kick in, and he was on a street without much traffic. Don't do this when there are impatient drivers behind you, he wanted to see how fast he could go on solely electric and was pleasantly surprised to get 40.

(on edit: oops, meant to say one thing, ended up saying the opposite with a misplaced word. Fixed it, now I'm saying what I mean)

[LostinVA]

59. I know eight person who own a Prius, and they ALL get at least

the 51-60... two get higher than that. So, Toyota didn't lie.

Heck, my VW Golf TDI gets 50 mpg, which is ABOVE the listed mpg... you just have to know how to drive it... and the Prius. Coasting, no jack rabbit starts, no driving at speed demon speeds, etc. It literally all adds up. Just going the speed limit on the interstate gives me above mpg... as soon as I add 5mph or so on, the mileage goes down. We just have to relearn how best to drive.

[DainBramaged]

78. It must be scary going 55 when the world is going 75+

on the interstates.

[RB TexLa]

91. It's not scary at all

I drive conventional gas powered vehicles and usually drive a little over 55, not really for any reason just noticed that is what I drive when I don't watch the speedometer. As far as the other drivers, not really any of my concern or any of my business what speed they are driving and I am within the minimum and maxim speeds allowed by law.

[lectrobyte]

133. That sounds a bit sour grapish. I was doing 80+ this morning, and

my Prius probably sees at least 75 mph (65 mph highway) every day, and I get 53MPG.

[DainBramaged]

176. No, I hate being looked upon as a bad guy for not owning a hybrid

And I JUST had an incident on the way home when a Pious was in the fast lane on RT10 in Morris county NJ and would not move over. 45 in a 55 zone. Slow down traffic so they could prove a point or get 2 more miles per gallon.

[RB TexLa]

188. 45 in a 55 maximum zone is within the law

You do not have to drive the maximum speed allowed and no one has a right to expect others to drive the maximum speed allowed.

[DainBramaged]

201. Automobiles are about passion, and passion is my life

From my passion for cars, my passion for politics, passion for my family, to my passion for abandoned and abused animals, passion makes my life interesting and worthwhile. I have maybe, tops, 25 years left, and I want to stay passionate till it's time for that dirt nap.

When the passion is gone, for some, all that matters is not breaking the law and staying within the speed limit.

Sad.

FYI, Saturn releases a Green Vue end of the year. Along with a 260HP turbo convertible. Something for everyone.

Passion. It is what makes it worth while. And it is what I hope wins back Washington for us this November.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/13/automobiles/autospecial/13motors.html

The vice chairman of General Motors, Robert A. Lutz, yesterday offered the company's bluntest rebuff yet of critics who say a turnaround at the ailing automaker is failing to gain steam.

Yesterday, that same off-the-cuff demeanor was again on display. Few G.M. skeptics were spared. Mr. Lutz took issue with a statement by President Bush earlier this year that G.M. "needs to develop a product that's relevant." Responded Mr. Lutz: "I'm a lifelong Republican, by the way. But next time around, Hillary, here I come. I'm a protest vote."

He also took issue with people who, he said, were indifferent to the American automakers' loss of market share to Asian companies. "People who think it doesn't matter who owns our automobile industry are flat wrong," he said, adding that it was "fiction" that foreign automakers were becoming more American as they build plants here. "They are not producing. For the most part, they are assembling. The parts mostly come from overseas. The profits are partially invested in the United States but not necessarily."

Back to sleep.

[RB TexLa]

202. nothing sad about my driving

I just don't care what speed other cars are driving, I don't drive slower than the speed limit to save gas. One of my vehicles gets about 14mpg on the highway so driving slower isn't going to make much difference. I guess I just don't share your passion for cars. I can see them and think they look nice and all but don't see what the speed you are driving at has to do with passion.

[tabasco]

208. Automobiles are about getting from Point A to Point B.

"Automobiles are about passion." LMAO. Sounds like those car commercials really work. Kudos to the auto companies who were advertising when you were 10-14 years old!

It really pisses me off when some "passionate" driver endangers my life on the highway.

Maybe find some other source of passion in your life than from driving a car on a public highway.

Mario Andretti did a commercial in which he made fun of highway drivers who find highway driving "passionate." He said take it to the track and be safe on the public highways.

Take your passion to the dirt track, Mr. Passionate.

[DainBramaged]

210. Passion is what has kept the Cons in power for 12 years

I guess you didn't read my entire post. I'm glad you think I endanger other's lives. Especially yours. I call that paranoia, not passion. And if you misunderstood the meaning of passion, I'm sure your life is full of misunderstanding.

[Nobody]

194. You're not a bad guy for driving a conventional engine car

Any vehicle gets better gas mileage when you reduce wind resistance, do less idling at stops, keep to a constant speed, etc. I can squeeze some impressive gas mileage out of my Insight on a good day with a good tailwind (my record is 86mpg) but in the dead of winter, when the engine needs to run rich, when warming up takes a while, when it's 20 below zero air temperature, and facing a headwind, I still got better than 50 mpg.

It's the same for any vehicle.

Check the Ford UK web site. There are cars they sell in the UK that they do not sell here that are clean-running diesel engines giving better mpg than anything they sell here. Their own execs are closing down two auto manufacturing plants that are dedicated to larger vehicles that aren't selling so well. When you do the conversion for mpg and Imperial gallons (5 qts rather than the US 4 qts to a gallon) and kilograms, the Ford UK vehicles get better fuel economy.

Why don't they sell those cars here? Because they think no one will buy them. Maybe they're right, but do you think they should be offered?

I would like to see some serious research into clean-running renewable fuel so we don't run ourselves out of fuel before we can deal with it. Too many people don't care. I'd like to see an easily manufactured renewable fuel such as methanol (many farms run on this, don't know that you can use it in vehicles), ethanol, biodiesels, fuel cells, water (has been tried), or something else not thought of yet. If within a few years there is something out there that can carry a lot of passengers, haul a lot of stuff, and take on rough road conditions, and still get better gas mileage than what I normally get when I don't think about it (mid 70s), I'll be happy to hand over the hypermilage crown to someone else.

In fifteen years I do NOT want to be driving the most fuel economical car on the road. I want the standard to be raised.

[eppur_se_muova]

195. If it weren't a Prius, you would assume it was just a bad driver. So why..

can't you assume it's a bad driver ... IN A PRIUS??

[Shakespeare]

239. Show me ONE POST on this thread where somebody said that.

One. Just one. C'mon, show me.

[Nobody]

190. I did 80+ this morning, too

And that's MPG, not MPH.

(By the way, I was keeping up with traffic just fine.)

[Lorien]

146. The "Car talk" guys on PBS will back you up on that

:thumbsup:

[LSK]

64. what do other cars of similar size and price get?

20? 25? mpg? Even if you are getting 40mpg you are ahead of the game.

[CabalPowered]

79. Have you tried to pulse and glide?

It took me some time but I've got it figured out now and I'm starting to see the averages estimated. There's some good guides on pulse/glide on priuschat.com. If it makes you feel any better, I know you can actually do a lot better than EPA estimates in some instances. I drove 500 miles last weekend with a 20 mph tail wind and averaged almost 70 mpg.

[rucky]

131. WOW. I could've gone back to Kansas long ago!

here's a link I found that explains it quite well:

http://hybridcars.about.com/od/ownership/a/pulseandglide.htm

[rucky]

129. I get about 45-50.

but I do alot of freeway driving, so...

[Lorien]

137. May be your driving style, or the weather

my best friend has a Prius that gets 60-100 mpg in the summer on long road trips, but only about 45 in the winter. It's taken him a while to learn how to drive it to conserve the most amount of gasoline.

[Renew Deal]

160. Yep

I was getting 28 MPG during a snow storm here. It has a lot to do with driving style and conditions. Check out www.priuschat.com for good info on optimal driving.

[Nobody]

197. Weather makes a huge difference

I've got a friend with a Saturn EPA rated in the low 40s. He's been averaging about 30 mpg per tank in January. (this is Minnesota by the way) and pushing 50 mpg in the summer.

Another friend has a Prius but she drives like a maniac and gets about 45 mpg. I have no data for January so I can't say what she's getting.

My Insight has been getting in the high 50s in January, in the summer I can get high 70s and 80s. Record is 86 mpg. The Insight owners community has a 100 club. If you can do a trip and park the car with 100+ mpg on the trip odometer, you're a member. I haven't been able to get there yet, but the car is less than a year old.

[NEOBuckeye]

11. Welcome, but overdue. If engine development had been allowed to evolve...

...Like computers, VCRs, televisions and virtually any other form of technology since it's inception, we'd probably have engines that get 1,000 to 1,500 MPG by now. Odd that no one is baffled that the combustible engine remains virtually unchanged in operational efficiency since the 1930s.

Try not to rack your brain too hard thinking about who had a vested interest in keeping it this way.

[DainBramaged]

13. Do you think the manufacturers are innocent too?

Or do you also think that because we don't have the greatest mass transit system in the world, a poor number of stations selling diesel in the suburbs, and the late start on ethanol, and then take corrupt politicians into the mix, we're screwed and we'll gladly lap up what they throw at us?

On edit;

Remember the promise of the rotary? What happened? Anybody? Can I see hands?

[Tesha]

18. Physics gets in the way.

> If engine development had been allowed to evolve
> like computers, VCRs, televisions and virtually
> any other form of technology since it's inception,
> we'd probably have engines that get 1,000 to 1,500
> MPG by now.

Physics gets in the way. It takes a certain amount of
energy to push an object through the air at a certain
speed, and modern cars are starting to bump the limit.
You can streamline a practically-shaped car just so
much.

To get beyond that, you need to either:

o Travel a lot slower,
o Travle in cars with a smaller frontal cross-section, or
o Figure out a way for cars to travel in a vacuum

Or, most likely, quit traveling in personal automobiles.

Tesha

[druidity33]

166. pioneering ideas...

Have been ignored consistently in the automotive genre... many rumours abound about technologies that have been silenced by copyright/patent sabotage. Here's one innovation that's been in the news recently... we'll see if it becomes something...

http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content.html?oid=oid:146677

Personally, i've never had a license to drive (34 now)... i'm too poor to afford a car so i mostly bus, bike, walk or hitch... unlike the other poster, I don't have anything against hybrids though... i'll take a ride if you can squeeze me in...

[Tesha]

218. I think you may be missing my point.

Ultimately, it isn't a question of some new idea offering
improved efficiency.

A gallon of gas only contains so much stored chemical energy.
(Diesel contains a little more and CNG or hydrogen a lot less.)

A heat engine (like the motor in your car, like *ANY* fuel-
burning engine) can only achieve a certain maximum efficiency
if it burns the fuel at temperature H and uses cooling air at
temperature C.

So there's only so much mechanical energy you can get out of
the chemical energy stored in a gallon of gas (or any chemical
fuel).

Meanwhile, it takes a certain amount of mechanical energy to
push a car through the atmosphere at a certain speed. You can
streamline the car, you can make its cross-sectional area
less (by seating everyone in a line instead of side-by-side),
you can cover it with some magical anti-friction shark-skin
derived surface coating and you'll get improvements, but it
still takes *SOME* energy and for any given speed, you can
calculate the air resistance R.

So at speed S, with the gas being burned by an engine at
temperature H and running in air at temperature C, with
an air resistance of R, you will only get so many miles
per gallon. It's all physics, and its immutable.

You might be able to blame it all on the Intelligent
Designer, but you can't blame it on Ford, GM, Exxon,
or Chevron.

Tesha

[druidity33]

221. whoah there...

seems like you're missing my point too... of course it takes "some" energy to power a car, but if we all got 250 mpg instead of 25, wouldn't things be better?

And did you even read the article? As far as Physics being immutable, tell that to my yogic friend who spends time Out of Body (astral projection) every night. NOTHING is impossible or "immutable"... we limit ourselves by imposing limits. You list all these "if this is A and that's B" situations... but these are VARIABLES, not immutables.

As far as the article i posted is concerned... we are talking about 1 mechanical modification that can potentially double the gas mileage IN ALL VEHICLES, all by redesigning 1 component. How many other new ideas out there have been stifled?

As far as blaming our low gas mileage on the car companies, i sure as hell CAN blame it on them... we've already had cars that get 60 mpg without any hybrid or special technologies. Had their research been focused on the environmental aspects of car design as opposed to the "aesthetic" and/or saleable aspects of US car culture (why so many SUV's?), we would not be having this "discussion".

[Tesha]

223. Okay, you're one of those folks.

Have a happy life.

Tesha

[SidDithers]

236. Excellent response!...

Contrary to popular belief, "anything" is not possible.

:toast:

Sid

[LiberalPartisan]

16. Bye bye GM, Ford and Chrysler

Unless of course they can produce an oversized road hogging SUV with comparable mileage.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark2008]

29. I'll still buy Fords - they're much prettier than any of those ugly

hybrids. Plus, I can't AFFORD a hybrid. No way I'm shelling out that kind of money for a butt-ugly car.

If car manufacturers want us to purchase these cars, they're going to have to price them better and make them more visually appealing to those of us who think foreign-designed automobiles are ugly a sin.

[LSK]

62. a Prius sells in the mid 20s

Isnt that what most cars sell for? :shrug:

[DainBramaged]

81. No

I can buy a myriad number of models under $15,000 that get in the 30MPG range. And there are great values in used older gas queens that make more sense than a new Pious or other hybrid.

[LSK]

85. can we leave out used cars from the comparison

I can buy a 1994 Ford Taurus for $3000 and be way ahead of the game.

But this discussion applies to new cars. So you are saying that $15k cars compare to the Prius? Is the Prius a barebones economy car or a normal car? Are we talking comparible to a Civic or Accord?

[DainBramaged]

87. No we can't leave used cars out

It all depends on the economic status of the individual, period. If I can buy a used 6 year old Civic that gets 35 MPG for $5000, why should I buy a $23,000 Pious to get 15MPG more? What if I can't afford a new car payment? This is about ECONOMICS and the value to everyone, not just those fortunate enough to afford a new hybrid.

[LSK]

89. no, its about NEW cars

Because manufacturers cannot build used cars.

[DainBramaged]

97. No, used cars were once new cars

[LSK]

99. but this is a discussion on cars being made by manufacturers

Or so I thought.

[DainBramaged]

101. I'm not trying to be cute, it's about economics

If I can afford to spend $250 a month on a car, there are few choices I can make for a new car. $250 a month gets me a $12-18,000 vehicle new, nowhere near a hybrid. But $250 a month over 36 months gets me a nice older Import or Domestic. And I can come close to hybrid millage without the depreciation penalty too.

[LSK]

103. im with you on the economics of it

I drive a 12 year old vehicle. I have no car payments. I just thought this discussion was about what Manufacturers are building and what they should try to build.

[DainBramaged]

104. I own an eight year old piece of shit for my driver

It gets 18mpg. I can't afford a new car. I've rebuild or replaced everything on my piece of shit in the past 2 years. It works, blows cold, carries 5 with a lot of storage space, and is 4wd. If I could afford $250 a month, I'd buy the most I could for my money. In 3 months, I have to get a car for my daughter. There goes my $4000 I saved up so I can buy her something safe and reliable. Maybe an older Cavalier, or even a Nissan Sentra or Mazda 323.

But I can't afford a new car for me.

Something too many here just don't want to understand. Yet they won't give me a dime to save oil and buy me a new hybrid but think preaching to me is ok.

[LSK]

110. well i was thinking along the lines that this was discussing new cars

Like I said Im with you on the economics of used cars. For around $4,000, try getting an early/mid 90s Lumina or Cutlass Ciera. Those things seem to run forever. And the great thing about used GM cars are that parts are so damn cheap. I personally drive a 94 S10 blazer. Just replaced the fenders and plan to keep it for a few more years. I dont have a long commute so gas prices dont kill.

Keep in mind that lots of people do buy new cars and do not have a clue how to fix them and need warranties. They also are commuters alone and sit in traffic jams for hours on end. Hybrids make sense for those folks.

[DainBramaged]

119. I';m catching reports that Hybrid repairs are going to hurt

once those cars are out of warranty. And because of Federal regulations, soon, there won't be anything you can do yourself to a new car. You'll HAVE to go back to the dealer to maintain EPA compliance. Mine is a '98 Blazer. Bought it off lease in 2001.

[trekbiker]

240. an older Cavalier???

aaahahahaha... boy, you really know your cars dont you. No wonder you bought an 8 year old piece of crap that gets 18, spews pollution, then rebuilt and replaced everything on it over the last two years. Smart thinking there.. Guys like you are a riot.. know-it-alls that deep down realize what born losers they truly are..

[tammywammy]

251. I had a 2001 Chevy Cavalier

I regularly got around 30 mpg, but I did mostly highway with a little city.

I traded it in for an 06 Beetle TDI, because the diesel gets better mileage. Also the Cavalier has 93K miles on it, and I pretty much figured once it hit 100K it was just going to explode with a ton of problems.

[midnight armadillo]

162. Buying used is greener anyway

By buying used you avoid the energy cost of producing a new car for you. An older car doing 30 mpg is a more environmentally friendly choice than a new hybrid, unless your sole green criteria is fuel consumption.

[DainBramaged]

177. You hit it on the head, such a simple concept so few understand

[Beaverhausen]

193. An older car is probably spewing far more emissions into the atmosphere

than a newer one. My old car barely passed the "smog test" the last time I had to have it tested and I felt guilty about what I was putting into the air. Now with the Prius I know my emission are very low.

[midnight armadillo]

203. That's true

Newer cars also have much more ssafety features. However, a 3-year old off-lease car still counts in terms of production energy. :)

[jsamuel]

196. yes, but most of those (if not all) do not come with standard Air Bags...

anti-lock breaks, air conditioning, automatic transmission, power stearing... and to add each of those things costs 1000 more dollars. so a "13-14000" dollar car ends up costing 17-18,000 dollars with minimal safety and comfort options. While with the Prius it comes standard with those features as well as a myriad of others. I have looked for cheap cars (I can't afford a Prius either) but I am not going to pay 18000 dollars for a piece of crap car when I can pay 23,000 for a great car with low gas mileage...

[ContraBass Black]

94. The Honda hybrids look just like the rest of their line.

[Kolesar]

113. Dont sound so happy ... eom

[Hobarticus]

25. "God bless America, land that I love"...wait...huh? Whaddaya mean?

You mean the best fuel economy cars are being engineered and built by Japanese companies?

But America's the largest consumer of fossil fuels on the planet! And we're America, after all. Why couldn't WE come up with that?

:cry:

[Clark2008]

32. Ford has a hybrid.

Do you people read?

And, it looks more like a car than a bubble. Granted, I don't like SUVs, either, but the Ford Escape Hybrid at least LOOKS like a car.

[Hobarticus]

33. Not at a 100mpg. Do you read? n/t

[ContraBass Black]

90. Four things:

There's a unit coversion. 100 mpg there = 94 to us.

That's an empty car, driven by an expert. Real people on real roads in real traffic with real cargo won't get that kind of mileage.

The Escape is fully hybrid.

The Escape is much larger.

[Hobarticus]

132. Hybrid Ford Escape at 36/31 mpg doesn't compare to even 94 mpg...

And I'm sure Ford's specs are derived from the very same conditions you describe.

And if I don't WANT an SUV, this is a logical choice.

What's the big deal? I'm disappointed that our own Big Three couldn't have come up with this themselves.

[Don Claybrook]

49. Ford is busy committing corporate suicide

Their hybrid was a day late and a dollar short? And they're STILL idiots, given that in these very pages this morning, I read about a Ford exec still singing the praises of large SUV's.

I'm sorry you think it's an ugly car. I sometimes find beauty in functionality. But if you're in love with the Galaxy 500 look, well, what can I say.

[LostinVA]

73. No need to be insulting, and Ford has a wannabe hybrid

Its mpg isn't that great, and US auto companies are busy cranking out gas guzzlers left and right, NOT studying and developing hybrids, hydrogen cars, etc. They don't car. Their hybrid is a PR thing.

Who acres what the car looks like? I can truly understand if you want a roadster, etc.... but just to get from place to place? A good, reliable car with good mpg is all we need.

[LSK]

77. i thought the Escape gets 30mpg city?

Dont most SUVs get around 15 city?

[DainBramaged]

108. I'll ask you one last question, since you appear to know

everything there is to know about GM and the US auto manufacturers and what they research and how they market their products.

If everyone wanted a hybrid (or in your way of thinking, SHOULD buy one), why are there so amy other vehicles to buy?

Goodbye.

[Hobarticus]

141. Wow, lotsa hate n' discontent here, eh?

Amazing, just merely expecting better from the Big Three is enough to get some people's floormats in a twist.

[iconoclastNYC]

111. If i remember correctly Ford liscensed the hybrid tech from Toyota

[Justice Is Comin]

37. We would have.

We just couldn't come up with the right Supreme Court when they sold out our vote for the real president.

[Jaydog]

26. Prius gas mileage

I have a 2005 Prius. It gets ~ 44-45 MPG average. MPG is a little less in cold weather. I love the car (dependable,enough pep and handles very well)but it doesn't get the promised MPG. It does have a smaller gas tank so when i fill up it isn't crazy expensive. It does not plug in, but recharges the battery while the gas engine is running.

I highly recommend. I feel like I am supporting the technology, which is good.

[Clark2008]

27. Too bad it will still be ugly as sin.

I don't WANT to drive a bubble.

When are we going to get some hybrid sports cars?

PS. Not only do I find the Prius visually unappealling, it's also not safe for me to drive where I live. Interstates 40 and 75 meet in my town and most commuters here have to take the interstate to travel through town, as a result. A itty-bitty bubble like the Prius wouldn't stand a iota of a chance against the semi's I have to fight in traffic, daily. Granted, many cars won't win a battle with a semi, but I feel more comfortable in a car with longer lines between me and that 18-wheeler.

[lectrobyte]

42. Hybrid sports car seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms,

but there is a Toyota Highlander and Ford Escape for the SUV fans. Are you really gonna want to battle semis with with a sports car? There's also the Honda Accord hybrid, it's pretty fast.

[ContraBass Black]

93. Hybrid sports car isn't a contradiction in terms.

The Accord for example, supplements the gasoline driven torque with the recaptured electrical energy. It's designed to be faster instead of more efficient, though it will probably save some gas. There was a conceptual race car called the Acura/Honda Dualnote that used this idea for high performance some years ago.

[lectrobyte]

198. The 300 ft/lbs of torque from the electric motor in the Prius is a

real surprise a lot of the time.

[ContraBass Black]

205. The electric motor supplies good torque at the low end.

How did it to at Bonneville?

[lectrobyte]

233. 127mph from a mostly stock drivetrain. Set a land speed record for

hybrids.

[CabalPowered]

65. Subaru has a turbo hybrid sports car scheduled for 2008 or 2009

The concept floated right now looks like this..

%

Toyota recently purchased about a 10% share in Subaru and will help build an American plant. If they put the synergy drive in the outback/imprezza/forester, they'll make a killing. My 01 OB already gets upwards of 34 mpg on the highway. With Synergy, that could easily goto 50.

[ContraBass Black]

72. The hybrid Civics, Accords, and Escapes look just like regular.

Their mileage is far lower, though.

[Lorien]

153. Nothing is uglier than an SUV or Hummer, imo

it's all a matter of personal tastes. I think the new Prius is wicked cool!

[trogdor]

28. Damn those Japs!

It ain't fair, I tell you! Toyota should be forced to delay rollout of the new Prius for ten or twenty years while GM lobbies the government for punitive tariffs catches up. :sarcasm:

[Clark2008]

30. You do, of course, know that Ford has a hybrid, correct?

[ContraBass Black]

70. And GM's mass produced hybrid was first.

It didn't sell.

[DainBramaged]

84. You bet, EV1 got laughed off the market

Great lease deals, and no one cared. Cost over 50 grand to make each.



The EV1 was an all-electric vehicle conceived, developed and built by GM, and offered for lease through Saturn retailers in California and Arizona beginning in December 1996 and through August 2004.

The lead acid EV1 required a 5 to 6 hour charge, which offered a driving range of 55 to 95 miles. The nickel-metal hydride battery pack required a 6 to 8 hour charge, which provided a driving range of 75 to 130 miles. The vehicle was available for lease only, and monthly payments ranged from $299 to $574, with significant subsidies by GM and some governmental incentives.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/300_hybrids/hyb_ev1.html

[ContraBass Black]

86. The EV-1 was electric?

I must have something confused. I thought it was a hybrid.

[DainBramaged]

92. It was a great concept, beat the Ricers to market

Too bad they didn't make the choice to go hybrid then. Now the Malibu comes out this year, 15% better all around mileage I think. Don't know the cost though. But I'm sure the smugs will find a reason to knock the crap out of it.

[lectrobyte]

105. That's not a hybrid, that's an electric car. Big, big, difference.

[DainBramaged]

123. (Sigh) It was a worthy attempt and the concept is valid

I drive around 300 miles a week. I'd LOVE to plug my car in and charge it up. But if the cost of electricity exceeded the same amount of gas (cost) needed to drive the same distance, I choose the cheaper route.

I still think we should return to the stone age. That would solve all the smug problems.

[Beaverhausen]

149. People who had those cars loved them and were angry when...

...they had to give them up.

They had a club...here is the web page

http://ev1-club.power.net/

here's another
http://www.saveev1.org/


In fact- I see there will be a documentary called
"Who Killed the Electric Car"
http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

[MadHound]

31. I'm already getting 100mpg, right now

2005 Bajaj Chetak, 100mpg, cruises at 55-60 mph, four speed manual transmission for quick pickup from a dead stop. <http://www.bajajusa.com>

Wonderful bike, I recommend it for anybody who can ride. No, it doesn't do highways well at all, but for commuting around the city, or traveling the back roads and blacktops, it is ideal.

[Darkhawk32]

35. MadHound, can you imagine me driving that? LOL

That would be COMICAL! :silly:

[MadHound]

39. Can't be anymore comical that I look

But hey, I don't care, I'm laughing everytime I pass an SUV sucking it down at the pump!:evilgrin:

[Darkhawk32]

43. I drive a little SUV, but I also have kiddies to transport. n/t

[MadHound]

46. For you, there is the Bajaj passenger hauler

Better known as the autorickshaw.


Gets 80mpg, cruises at 40mph, four speed manual tranny, seats five comfortably. It is a three wheeler that also comes in a pickup and panel van style. However don't take it out on the highway.

[Darkhawk32]

71. OMG! LOL!

[Poiuyt]

145. Bajaj AUTORICKSHAW

http://www.scootertherapy.com/rickshawpage.html

[benburch]

127. Imagine what it would get with an aerodynamic cowling. nt

[The2ndWheel]

52. Good

Now things will change. The commute from home to work will get further apart. More highways. It'll be cheaper to use gas, so more people will use it for longer distances, and we'll end up to where we're going anyway.

[Fovea]

125. I think that places like KC and Atlanta

who are planning on another ring in the next 30 years are going to be surprised.

Transportation costs are going to screw with globalization dramatically. Fewer grapes from Chile, more local products, more urbanization. By the time I die, if I am lucky, petrochemical feedstocks will become more precious than gasoline. I think that is about 15 years away.

I don't see a hybrid tractor coming out anytime soon, but I do think this technology will affect rail traction. freight cars will need motor/generators and the air line will be replaced by a superconductor buss, but this may really be a great technological advance on the efficiency of rail, which is the surface transit efficiency winner.

[LSK]

55. meanwhile GM trys to sell more Hummers and Tahoes

Gee I wonder why they are in trouble??? :shrug:

[DainBramaged]

57. (Sigh) they don't try, there is a demand for them

So, because so many of you don't approve of certain vehicles, they shouldn't be produced? Be happy you are doing your best to minimize your carbon footprint here, stop condemning people and companies who won't walk in lockstep with your beliefs.:grr:

By the time hydrogen vehicles eliminate petro powered lumps, we'll all be taking a dirt nap. And don't think steam won't make a comeback either.

[lectrobyte]

60. I have no problem with companies producing what people want...

But I'm a little irritated about tax breaks for businesses to buy large SUVs. And SUVs not having to meet mileage standards and safety standards for passenger cars when probably 99% of them are used as passenger cars.

[DainBramaged]

68. My friend, with Corrupt ConJobs in control

we have to put up with it until we can take back the Congress. Bush lied about everything, including reducing our dependence on oil.

[LSK]

69. yes people should be free to buy what they want to a degree

But the government should put tax incentives to guide the people to do the right thing. Huge gas sipping SUVs are not good for the general population in the long term.

In Europe I believe there are more taxes for cars with more liters displacement.

[LostinVA]

76. Yup

[DainBramaged]

83. Why should it be "to a degree"?????

If people don't think like you , should they be forced to buy only what you deem acceptable? That in and of it self is wrong. People need to make value judgments based on their need and experience. No one here has the right to determine "to a degree" what we should or should not be able to buy as long as it doesn't involve life-threatening devices.

That is my entire point about smug and hybrids. I'll keep my freedom of choice, thank you very fucking much.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[LSK]

88. That would be great if everyone had their own planet to live on

Unfortunately we all have to share 1 planet and that is Earth. We all have to breath the same air and all have to share its finite resources.

If someone doesnt like emmissions equipment should we allow him to smog the atmosphere for everyone? Should we allow a whole segment of the population drive 1000 hp cars that get 1 mpg just because they want to??? Nevermind that we will have no oil left in 10 years, because some people are "free" to do what they want now.

If you leave people to do what they want, they will most always choose the selfish me 1st attitude which is detrimental to the environment and the planet and to society as a whole. Governments should look out for the entire population and try and find a balance of what people want and what is good for the collective whole.

There should never be such a thing as a free market, government should always be there to regulate it and steer it towards the better good of everyone.

That being said, our current government is run by the selfish me 1st crowd.

Am I being smug, no. Im looking at the big picture.

[DainBramaged]

96. I think you believe a Totalitarian government is best than?

government should always be there to regulate it and steer it toward the better good of everyone.

The government doesn't know shit, and has become a corrupt behemoth. I can't disagree with you more.

Thank you no, I'll live elsewhere if you are in charge.

And one more thing;

When was the last time Democrats were in charge, 1994? Get real.

[LSK]

98. why do you have to make extremes out of it???

You make the simplistic judgement that its either total freedom or totalitarian government. Why?
Why cant there be a balance. Why cant we strive to meet in the middle somewhere???

Look at what Europe is doing. Read up on third way. When peak oil comes, who will suffer more, the Free Market that you want or society that tried to balance things and look ahead like they have in Europe?

Do you think National Health Care is a bad idea too?

[DainBramaged]

102. (Sigh) Europe has a better mass transit system

And because they are (individually) so small in comparison to the US, they were forced to make efficiency choices way before we did.

By the way, I can make any judgment I want, that's the point here. Go argue semantics with someone else.

[BlooInBloo]

82. (shrug) Let the companies produce what the yokels want....

JUST GET THE FUCKING CCORPORATE WELFARE OUTTA THE GAME!

If they can make money ON THEIR OWN producing energy wasting, dangerous pieces of crap, morre power to 'em. Just don't ask the taxpayer to cover it - in ANY fashion.


I feel fofr the workers, but GOD I hope the jackass big 3 go into bankruptcy and the execs get kicked out and brought up on rico or something...

[MadHound]

100. Trouble is that the demand for SUVs, and a lot of pickups

Is a manufactured demand. It is a demand that has been artifically creadted by the advertising and marketing departments of the Big Three in order to foist large, gas guzzling, air polluting, inefficient, cheaply made vehicles on the public. Really now, how many people living in the burbs need a four wheel drive, Ford F350 1 ton dually?

These vehciles were promoted by the Big 3 because they have a large profit margin. Before the late eighties, most folks wouldn't touch an SUV or pickup as their primary commuter vehcile. Those were relegated to farm, construction and other industrial sectors who actually had a need for such a vehicle. The only need that these vehicles now fill, for the most part, is that of bolstering up countless insecure male egos and providing a false sense of security.

I don't care if my fellow citizens, both human and corporate, follow my beliefs or not. But I do care a great deal when they continue to use up a non-renewable resource at an inordinate rate, all the while polluting the air we all breath at a rate much higher than those who choose to use smaller, more efficient vehicles. People get all bent out of shape about second hand smoke, but the issue of our declining air quality due to the ongoing use of pickups and SUVs as commuting vehicles gets hardly a peep. And yet who is putting more pollutants into the air?

Frankly, if all vehicles were powered by a bio-diesel hybrid, I wouldn't give a damn what people drove. But the fact that these people continue to pollute my air, and use up a finite resource at a pace higher than normal, all the while getting tax credits for it just burns me no end:grr:

[iconoclastNYC]

112. I call Bullshit

They do try...they spend millions on commericials to create demand.

If they would recognize the harm a Hummer does to the environment they wouldn't market them at all and stop production.

[DainBramaged]

121. What about tanks and land mines?

I think they are even more harmful, yet our government endorses them. Shouldn't we be more concerned about how destructive they are to the earth?

[iconoclastNYC]

204. LOL.

Wow i'm convinced. Since we can't ban military equipment we best not worry about SUVs.

[DrunkenMaster]

120. STILL NOT ENOUGH

For one simple reason called "thermal inertia". FOSSIL FUEL USE MUST BE ELIMINATED. PERIOD.

[Renew Deal]

138. OK

Please let me know what I can use tomorrow that is 100% fossil fuel free tomorrow. My feet is not a satisfactory answer.

[0007]

122. Good for Toyota. One of the best vehicles on the market.

[Momgonepostal]

128. There sure are some bitter posts in this thread

The way I see it is this:

1) If you think they are ugly, don't buy one

2) If the size doesn't work for your family, don't buy one

3) If the cost doesn't work for your family, don't buy one

A lot of people are really happy about the auto industry's continued progress in fuel efficiency. Why try to pee on their parade by bring up your specific issues?

Neither the OP of the quoted article passed any judgements on whether any of us should go out and buy a Toyota Prius.

Personally, my family does not have the money to buy any new vehicle right now, and 2009 isn't looking good either, but I still think this Prius is wicked cool.

[Beaverhausen]

142. great post. Thank you

I got a Prius last year to replace my 13 year old civic with 158,000 miles on it. I love it, I have taken it on several road trips and it has behaved like a champ!

Why people want to dismiss any efforts to lessen our dependence on oil is beyond me.

[lectrobyte]

171. Same story here. I replaced my '94 with an '05 Prius. Drove it

all over the place, from NC to Indiana, Michigan, etc. I couldn't be happier and I'm getting 53 mpg. I figure I can live with it for at least 10 years. Much zippier than the car it replaced, and quiet and smooth. I don't feel especially smug about it, but folks do tend to invest a lot of their personality in their cars sometimes. If you think you need a Corvette or a Hummer, and can justify that basically on emotional grounds, then why not a Prius on the same basis? I like that it pollutes less, and the gee-whiz of the computerized AC and radio etc. was enough to seal the deal for me.

[Lorien]

150. But this should matter to anyone with a family:

http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_classics/aninconvenienttruth/

CO2 is a huge factor in climate change, and the Prius has lower emissions than any car on the road.

[Beaverhausen]

152. Lower emissions are a huge reason I bought one

and should always be factored in when people consider buying a car.

:hi:

[DainBramaged]

178. In 30 years we've gone from 15 to 50 mpg

Great progress, could be better all around. But because people own gas sippers is no reason for them to pee on the rest of us, especially the rest of us who want to buy a domestic instead of an import.

[trekbiker]

242. in 30 years you've gone from 15mpg to 18mpg...

post a pic of you in your 8 year old beater.. I need a good laugh

[Blue_Tires]

192. well said

car with better fuel mileage, although not for everyone, is a long overdue step in the right direction and should be applauded, along with continual technological advancement...

I've long been a defender of the big 2.5, but honestly, if it were still up to them, they would still be making cars that get 10 mpg and no emission controls, and telling everyone that the era of cheap gas will last another 1,000 years...and ironically, even in the present day, the offerings of a company like DCX (especially dodge) are MUCH heavier and get worse mileage than they have since the 70s

[Craig3410]

139. But it'll still cost too much to bring them to a mechanic,

and the parts are too expensive, and it falls apart too easily, and we live in the country and you need stop and go traffic to charge the battery.... :sarcasm:

At least that's the logic my mother uses.

[Lorien]

148. Big Oil has one hell of a disinformation campaign going, don't they?

I hear the same crap out of a number of SUV driving RWers I know, too.

CO2 emissions are the other big reason to go hybrid. Here's why: http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount_classics/aninconvenienttruth/

[Blue_Tires]

154. ttt n/t

[Clarkie1]

180. I'll make a note of that. May be my next car. n/t

[SmokingJacket]

191. I had planned never to buy a new car.

But if this happens, I will.

[sakabatou]

209. Kampai Toyota!

[DainBramaged]

212. Sure

トヨタはアメリカを憎む

[sakabatou]

243. .

それはアメリカを憎むか?

[DainBramaged]

244. --//''>

車の輸入はアメリカの労働者を傷つける

[sakabatou]

248. .

本当であるアメリカ車メーカーは悪い選択をしている。

[DainBramaged]

250. We will conquer again

ライトは私達の側面にある

[sakabatou]

254. That doesn't translate very well

"As for the light/write there are on our sides"

[B Calm]

213. Can you tow a boat with it?

[chopper]

249. nope.

is a substantial portion of your driving with a boat in tow?

if so, then it most definitely aint the car for you.

[ronnykmarshall]

229. Just in time for me to buy a new car.

I love my little Civic. I have has it for 6 years now and I figure in a couple of years it will be time to get a car. This will be perfect timing.

[corporate_mike]

237. Would that be 50MPG according to US standards?

The article is misleading. It says the current Prius gets 99MPG.

[lectrobyte]

241. What I get out of it is basically two things: 1) they are making it

even more fuel efficient and 2) they are going to cost more like a regular car. Wouldn't have thought this would go on for 200 posts, but there you go. Not sure how the Japanese fuel economy cycle compares to the U.S. one, but I suspect it is focused on stop/go. The current model Insight is rated at 60/66, and the Prius at 60/51 (city/highway mpg) here in the US.

[Deja Q]

252. It is a 'milestone'. It is not a 'barrier'.

It is not a big-ass brick wall with Mr. T and Governor Groper pushing from the opposite direction.

Journalists lost the ability to understand words. :crazy: