I hate to say this, but...

[tjwash]

...I am actually starting to believe the draft should be reinstated.

I have actually been thinking about this, since posts such as this one, and this one, have been popping up, not just here, but at several other message boards and blogs as well. Now to be fair, I do have to admit that the LA Times sampling only around 1100 people does not actually constitute a real "poll" in my opinion. It is, however, enough to make me seriously wonder, how they can find that high of a percentage in even a biased group, with a rigged question. Considering what has transpired the last two years in Iraq, and the scandals and lies that have come to light, I honestly thought, that they would have had a hard time finding even 3 people out of a hundred that would support another military invasion.

Bringing back the draft. It's an awful thought, damn it, and I am starting to despise myself a little for even thinking it, BUT, it just looks like the average American just does not care. The average American has zero clue what so ever, of what is going on beyond their own back yards, and it is actually moved past annoying, to downright frightening. It's just appearing, that without the political angst involved in everyone having the chance of losing a loved one, or being touched in some horrible way by all of this, that we will happily just keep going to war to keep gas prices low, and the top one-percenters pockets filled with gold. Worse yet, we are now at the point where the people in power, boldly even talk of pre-emptive nuclear strikes, on sovereign nations.

It is becoming painfully clear to me, that the next three months, are going to determine much about which direction, we as a culture are moving toward. Are we going to evolve as a people and a culture? That's what I thought we were going to do at one point. During the "peace and prosperity" years we enjoyed in the nineties, I actually thought that we could start to move toward contributing more positive changes to our society. I though that maybe, we may soon find a way to use all of the energy, research, time, and money, that we had dumped into building this over sized, and bloated military of ours, and channel it into creating something that was more of a benefit to humanity. Unfortunately, it appears that our dark, and imperialistic side wasn't gone back then, it was merely taking a little nap. It is looking more and more, that we are back to our historical "business as usual" persona that loves to preach war and vengeance in lieu of peace and understanding. Is this where we really are as a culture? And more importantly, is this where we are going to build our culture on from this point forward?

Seven years ago, I would have told you that you were crazy, if you said that we would be where we are today. It’s also hard to decide who bears more of the responsibility for it--these hypocritical, neo-con Kings and Queens of ours, or the toadies that ditto them, in the safety and overfed comfort of their neighborhoods, or their parents houses. You know who I am talking about. The loud mouthed, big talking, macho jerks. The ones who just love seeing people such as Chickenhawk Limbaugh; the same simpering coward whose family doctor got him a "pimple on his butt" 4F deferment so he didn’t have to fight and die in a war he had no problem having "lesser" individuals fight for him, on the cover of his "Limbaugh Letter" in US Army fatigues, four stars across his US Army helmet and collar, while waving a little American flag.

It could be, that the only way that people are going to wake up, is to actually see what is going on. I mean what is REALLY going on, and by doing something that no one has done since we started "spreading democracy" across the Middle East. Sacrifice. We need to take every single one of these macho, preening, alpha-male armchair warriors, who constantly sit in front of their televisions, drinking beer and choking on pretzels, celebrating the blood lust pandered by the unnatural grafting of the media and the Pentagon, and show them what the fuck it is REALLY like. It's called an attitude adjustment sonny-boy. Get used to it.

I can't see those obscene polls changing any other way.

[WI_DEM]

1. Many people including Charlie Rangal agree with you

it might be the only way to truly wake people up. If it doesn't affect them directly too many people are complacent. I'm not sure what I think but I see some pros in this argument.

[TahitiNut]

65. "Democracy is not a spectator sport."

As a Viet Nam veteran and draftee, I've been a strong advocate of Universal National Service for 35 years. As a truly liberal democrat, I can be nothing else. We have to have "skin in the game."

Let's be clear: I detest the military 'culture.' It's authoritarian, mind-numbing, frustrating, and dehumanizing. Nonetheless, I believe a Universal National Service obligation that includes a variety of military and civilian options is essential - even if it must be enacted during the current regime.

[Clark2008]

146. Isn't it supposed to be authoritarian, mind-numbing,

frustrating and dehumanizing?

I mean, for all the accolades about how the military will train you, help you pay for college and provide you a way out of poverty, the simple truth is that the military was formed to fight wars - to kill and be killed - and, if you have any hope of surviving, you have to be, well, "programmed."

I'm not arguing here - I'm just making a minor point about the reasons why it is what I agree with you that it is.

[TahitiNut]

149. Yes, it is necessary. The hypocrisy is the problem, as I see it.

Rarely to we get to delve into this productively on DU - since the 'bandwidth' encourages a depth-of-discussion akin to a light dew. Nonetheless ...

Military service necessarily involves surrendering individual civil liberties, conscientious contemplation, self-actualization, and our higher human potentials ... at least for a time. It is exactly this surrender which, I believe, deserves to be honored. When we fail to acknowledge these realities - usually under some obscene pretense that service involves developing one's human potential - we make it impossible to honor that which such service truly involves. We also make it impossible to effectively address the need to 'debrief' and 'de-indoctrinate' those returning to civilian life. This is abhorrent and tragic.

It is absolutely essential, in my view, that we assiduously regard military service as the surrender and sacrifice of one's own individual volition to that of the "body politic" - the political will of We The People. That's the core meaning inherent in the word "service." After all, what waiter, waitress, butler, or other service person imposes their will on those being served? Being "in service" is an act of faith. One need not be sectarian to have "faith."

Folks quibble about the degree of such a surrender to the will of those being served, arguing endlessly about culpability and responsibility. The fact of the matter is that we can never tolerate a military acting in it's own self interest - that's not service, that's militarism. Thus, it's fundamentally wrong - brain-damaged - to express any expectation that the military engage in mutiny or somehow step forward and "save us" from the predations of our elected government. That's the lament/expectation of children, cowards, or subjects - not free people in anything resembling a democracy.

[progressivebydesign]

I've been having the same feeling... sad, isn't it?

I have been wondering if reinstating the draft will be what it takes for some people to wake up and start REALLY thinking about these wars that Bush and the PNAC are engaging in. Just because Bush will be out of office in 2008 does not mean the PNAC is gone... they will just find another figureheaded egotistical moran (like McCain perhaps) to do their bidding in exchange for power. If the thought of your children or grandchildren being sent off to these unwinnable wars is what it would take for some REAL dialogue on our shoot-first policy of the PNAC and defense contractors, then so be it. Perhaps less would die in our wars if the draft was reinstated. Everyone feels so comfortable sending volunteers off to die.. it seems. WHen most of them signed up in peace time, thinking that they were simply getting money for college or useful job training. The reservists are being so abused right now...

[guidod]

52. HOW DARE YOU!!!!

"SO BE IT" WITH YOUR OWN KIDS!!!! If there were a draft, I guarantee you that a lot more kids would die than if there weren't. Our wonderful troops knew what they were getting into when they joined. Everyone that joins the military knows they could be sent off to war. Why don't you sign-up if you're so gung-ho?!

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

71. If Bush's daughters and nephews were in service

Don't you think he'd be a little more cautious?

We definitely don't want a Vietnam era draft with all the deferments available to the rich. It would have to be across the board with every kid, rich or poor, white or non-white, having an equal chance of being drafted.

BTW, I threw in the white or non-white since our military is over represented by minorities as well as poor people in general. If you want to have a PC hissy-fit over it, go ahead.

[guidod]

83. I'm not having a hissy-fit.

You're missing the point. Are you willing to USE the lives of our children to try and make him a little more cautious? That's sick. Our kids. includiing the Presidents kids, have nothing to do with what's happening today. Have you ever lived through a draft? Why should any kid, white or non-white as you say, be used as a pawn in the adults chess match?

[Breeze54]

127. Did they?

Are you so certain about that?
:shrug:
STOP LOSS comes to mind...the BACK DOOR DRAFT WAS NOT IN MY SON'S CONTRACT!!!
:grr:

[guidod]

156. You're right the back door draft was not

in your sons contract. The back door draft is wrong, what I am saying is that a full blown draft should never occur. There's a huge difference between a back door draft and a full blown draft. I hope your son is safe.

[progressivebydesign]

129. God.. what an asshole response to my post! how dare YOU? n/t

[guidod]

155. You're right and I apologize for

the mean response. I'm just getting very tired of people saying our kids should pay for our msitakes with their lives. They had nothing to do with this.

I think everybody should serve our country for 2 years after their schooling and before the age of 25. They don't have to be in the military but they have to serve their country in some manner. However, none of what I said can be structured whhile we're at war. It would have to be done during times of peace. It would certainly keep this country from going to wars by choce. I apologize to you again for my anger.

[NicRic]

148. Alot of people who support draft....

believe this would make it more fair ,so not only the poor minorities wwould be in our milatary ,due to the need for education and just a place to live and eat. they believe with a draft that a sentor or congressmans son or daughter could and would be drafted to fight along side with the proor. Iam not that informed on how the process works ,however even during veitnam when there was a draft ,did not many stilll find away to avoid serving ,without going to Canada ,those with politicial connections like gwb ,was able to avoid it with daddy making a phone call and whala ,gw was in the nationial guard ,and he could not even complete that gift of safty from front line fighting in Nam ! Even with a draft ,the rich and powerful will find away to keep their kids from dying in this rich mans oil war .I dont blame them ,I would do anything to keep my only son from dying in a war that was no needed ,now going off to fight hitler like danger in the world ,I would go myself .however no young American should lose their life to help the oil companies expand their hold on mid-east oil . Use that money to find alternate energy supplies , make it a agenda ,like flying to the moon was ,free our country from the hold on us ,theconstant need for oil has !

[savemefromdumbya]

120. throughout history the kings used battle fodder

they want an everlasting war so they can keep their junta in power?

[Ron Green]

2. I agree. I want my country to be defended by citizen-soldiers, not

mercenaries.

[guidod]

57. Leave our innocent children

alone and join-up! Grab an M-16 and get your butt over there!

[Ron Green]

82. Been there, done that (US Army, 1966-69, disabled vet.) And I have a son

who's draft age. More importantly, though, is the idea of how we as people are involved with our country's military. If all have to serve, regardless of wealth or connections, then we've pulled back from the idea of a privatized, Halliburton-operated, mercenary force. I'd much rather see the healthy dissent and debate we had within the ranks during Vietnam.

FTA!

[guidod]

87. Thanks for your service

and I've also been there done that (U.S. Navy 1966-1972, no combat duty) I'm truely sorry about your disability, were you wounded in Vietnam?

I'm not sure that all of our kids should be involved in our Country's military. I think there should be a 2 year mandatory service to the country and take place after their scholing but before the age of 25. I think this service would free up our military to do the job they're suposed to do.

No child should be forced to be in harms way because of what we did.

[Ron Green]

92. I'm with you on the idea of 2 years mandatory.

Whether or not it's combat duty would be something the system would have to work out. My hope is that we can regain the idea of citizenship and involvement rather than the consumerism by which we now relate to our society. Hopefully if ALL young people do a 2-year mandatory service of some sort, we as a nation will be more involved in the decisions made by our leaders, and will never again be fooled as in 2000 and 2004. What Bush and his evil masters want is not citizens, but consumers, and a Halliburton security force to bring us cheap oil, our drug of choice. If one of the bitter pills we must take for civic health and a more sustainable lifstyle is to involve every young person in national service, I'm all for it.

Thanks for your thanks. My tour was in Korea, and my injury was in a stateside training exercise.

[guidod]

93. Well said and I couldn't

agree with you more. You make a good case. :toast:

[Breeze54]

134. What "HalliBurdon Security Force"? LMFAO!!

Are you talking about the asshats that NEED OUR SOLDIER's as ESCORTS IN IRAQ??
BUT get paid five times more??
Or the 'Halliburden' asshat THIEFS that provide the 'sewer treated water' to our troops??
:shrug:
Just wondering....

[Ron Green]

165. Yeah, I'm probably talking about Blackwater or somebody like that.

In any case, a hired force that's easily controlled by private money and not accountable to the American public.

[Roaming]

95. As long as we can keep our military strong with volunteers,

I think it should stay a volunteer army. Soldiers who choose to be soldiers make better soldiers. And I know there are some people who believe we should not even have an army, but think about the scenario where we HAVE to fight to defend ourselves, where there is just no way out of it. With a draft, could we have so many people afraid to send their children to war that our country could be conquered?

[Ron Green]

97. It may be possible that draftees might be just as good at soldiering as

enlistees. An 18-year-old learns lots of things about himself when he first leaves home. The "gung-ho" volunteer, whose ideas about "killing enemies" may be stronger than those about serving his country, is NOT the kid I would want as the backbone of the armed forces.

I don't want war, I want peace. And I think that the more people are involved in service the LESS warlike we are likely to become. Remember, it's the combat veterans who know the real story, and are usually less likely to run into foolish adventures like the one AWOL boy has us in now.

[annabanana]

3. not to be snarky, guys, but...

How old are your kids? Mine are 17 and 19. I am not willing to sacrifice my boys on principle.

[Sydnie]

6. I am standing right next to you annabanana

My son is 18. They CAN'T have him ... not for this bastards purposes.

[0007]

53. You would deny your 18 year old of making his own choice.?

I agree there should be no war or no draft. But choice is a different story.

[Sydnie]

123. You know ... 18 for some is just a number

My son wouldn't be interested in the military at all, in the first place. Secondly, my son is very bright ... high IQ and all ... but not much common sense. Don't get me wrong, I love him more than I can express, but I am the first to admit that he has some issues where life choices are concerned. Makes wrong choices quite often. Going through a bad patch of same as we speak. It's a freaky age and hard enough to survive without real bullets flying at them.

When he is as mature as 18 implies, we'll talk again about letting him make this kind of life altering/possible life ending choice all on his own. He is not of the "old soul" cut.

It is a sad commentary, but some kids are more mature and able to handle these kinds of choices better than others of the same chronological age, IMHO.

[Breeze54]

136. Mine weren't! .... n/t

[tjwash]

7. Get as snarky as you want. My son is 25, and it pains me to no end...

...to even think along these lines.

But at some point you have to think What. The. Fuck. Will. It. Take. To . Wake. People. Up?

[sheelz]

29. Even if everyone woke up....

it wouldn't stop them. What could we possible do to stop this megalomaniac? Even if everyone took to the streets, it would get very bloody. Bush would still go ahead with his plans.

[ronnie624]

88. People will not be awakened

overnight simply by instituting a draft. The awakening that is required can only be achieved through education. Until we as a nation place more value on education U.S. Americans will be easily befuddled into supporting more bloodletting draft or no.

I believe those of us who are aware must resist our violent tendencies every step of the way. I will not enable the corporatists in their drive for dominance and profit.

[madmunchie]

33. My boy is in Iraq

and so are many others, sorry but I agree with the op. My boy isn't worth any more or any less than yours. That is the point.

[gardenista]

125. Praying for your boy, and I agree with you and the op.

Have felt that way for some time.

[madmunchie]

157. Thank you for your thoughtfulness!

It is hard to believe that he is in Iraq, but he is and I would never have guessed in a thousand years that he would be there. What a joke on me.

[Breeze54]

137. You have that right! So is mine...it's called BACK DOOR DRAFT! n/t

[madmunchie]

158. People get their ass in an uproar when its THEIR kid going to Iraq,

but the truth is, that thier kid isn't worth any more OR and LESS than mine. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY the OP is right. You can be against the war in Iraq all you want to be and you could voice that opinion, but until it is YOUR kid, you don't feel the gut wrenching sickness and outrage that people who have loved ones in Iraq right now feel. And when all people are face with that horrid feeling, THEN and probably only then will many take to the streets.

[seabeyond]

50. i have two boys, younger, but..... i want a draft, and my boys wont

go. either jail, or canada, mexico, el savadore, costa rica. more and more parents wont allow kids to go to draft, and that will end this foolishness of bush. country would revolt

[Ex Lion Tamer]

114. No way my kids are going . . .

unless they want to. If there's a draft and they don't want to go, I'll do everything in my power to get them away.

[genieroze]

122. I'm with you. I have always been against this war, let these Hitler Youth

types get off their daddies rich laps and enlist. Why should my kids fight for some rich warmonger. For a war I have always been against.

[Breeze54]

138. and who will protect the country? n/t

[seabeyond]

151. this isnt about protecting this country. what a bullshit statement

i hope that was in sarcasm. next you will be questioning my patriotism.

[genieroze]

121. My kids are 22, 20, 18.

[progressivebydesign]

130. It's not principle.. it's fairness.

It's not some posturing about brining about a draft.. it's about making it fair. It's about the public and government having to face down angry parents because of the wars they are promoting. The pre-emptive wars would stop if they were no longer able to use and abuse the reservists this way. I have children in the same age group... I'm just trying to figure what is so fucking fair about sending off a 15 year old married reservist who signed up years ago to defend his country AT HOME.. sent off to fight for years and years in an unjust war.

But.. Americans are too busy watching American Idol and being content that SOMEONE else is fighting the war for them.. so they dont have to worry their beautiful minds about it.

[Breeze54]

135. You will not have a choice. They are 'of age' to decide. ..n/t

[Iniquitous Bunny]

161. I'm not willing either.

If it comes down to it, I'm in a field where I could get a work Visa with relative ease and I'll do what it takes. Our boys are younger, but who knows where things will be in another 5-10 years? :(

I'm willing to bet the people who think the draft is a great idea don't have boys who'll die overseas if a draft actually takes place.

[smirkymonkey]

4. The problem is that it's the poor who will suffer disproportionately.

If only the draft, in actuality, made no exemptions for class or privilege, then I could see it as a potentially effective tool for waking people out of their complacency.

[ldf]

32. i agree. let's wait for the absolutely PERFECT solution

where absolutley NO ONE gets hurt.

screw this "do something before its too late" attitude.

keep our powder dry, pick our battles, wait for the right time.....

:sarcasm:

[smirkymonkey]

37. Very constructive comment.

:sarcasm:

[guidod]

56. Do you hear yourself talking?

You're willing to kill our children to wake people out of their complacency? Instead of asking our kids to die for us, why don't you enlist tomorrow?

[smirkymonkey]

96. Did you even read my post? I was saying that it's not a good

idea because it's the POOR who will suffer disproportionately. I think your beef is with the OP or ldf who seem to think more cannon fodder is the answer.

Try reading people's posts first before just going on the attack. Sheesh. :eyes:

[guidod]

103. You better believe I did.

I read both of your posts. "The problem is that it's the poor who will suffer disproportionately. If only the draft, in actuality, made no exemptions for class or privilege, then I could see it as a potentially effective tool for waking people out of their complacency". OUR CHILDRENS LIVES ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A EFFECTIVE TOOL TO YOU!?

My beef is with people like you. All you're thinking about is the COMPLACENCY of the parents of the children. Good idea, let's kill their kids so the adults can start thinking right and vote these idiots out of officce.

I don't know if you've ever faced a draft or not when you were 18, it doesn't sound like it. I faced one in the 60's and joined the Navy to stay off of the front lines. I spent 2 years in Guam supporting the fleet of ships that were in Vietnam. Many times I stood with my friends and asked each other why, why are we stuck here in Guam and why were some of our High School buddies dying in Vietnam because of something our parents did.

Try looking at this from the childrens point of view before you think about using them as a "potentially effective tool" to wake people up. :banghead:

[smirkymonkey]

115. I have no problem with little republican frat boys who SUPPORT the

war in Iraq going off to FIGHT the war in Iraq. You missed the point completely. Nobody wants to send "innocent little children" off to war.

The point I am trying to make is very simple: If anyone is so gung-ho about continuing the war in Iraq and they are over 18 years of age, then they should SIGN THE FUCK UP. Anybody who is against the war should be exempt from any kind of military service. I guarantee that if there was some way to enforce this - like a draft for "Young Republicans" and their ilk only, the support level for this fucking travesty of a "war" would drop precipitously.

[guidod]

116. You keep telling me

I missed the point. If I missed the point it's because you didn't give it. Go back up thread and look at your two posts #4 and #96. Not once did you say anything about the republican frat boys going off and fighting the war because they're gung-ho about continuing the war in Iraq. If you had I would have agreed with you. Nor did you say if you were against the war you should be exempt. Once again, I would have agreed with you. Go back up thread and read what you wrote and get back to me. Come on, honesty now.

[smirkymonkey]

160. Ok - you're right, I guess I knew what I meant but didn't express it

correctly. Sorry.

[Breeze54]

140. and my brothers thank you for thinking about them....n/t

[cynatnite]

5. draft, high gas prices, bombs dropping in Iran

I think it'll be a combination of factors that'll wake the public up...

but then if we have a complicit corporate media that continues to enable the WH, I just don't know.

[guidod]

58. It certainly shouldn"t be

the death of our children that is used to wake up others. Listen to yourself! Maybe you should throw your own life into your factors.

[cynatnite]

59. Good point

It does get frustrating at times.

[Redstone]

8. Fuck, no. Two reasons:

1) We wouldn't need NEAR as large a military as we have if we didn't go around starting pointless wars and pissing everyone else off so much all the time.

2) The rich fucks will still get out of the draft, just like before. There was NO more "citizen-soldier democracy at work" during the draft than there is now. Brush up on your history. Check the ethnicity of Viet Nam war dead.

PS: They're NOT drafting either of my kids. Fuck, no. You think I'm going to let them get drafted to have their lives thrown away in some pointless hellhole like Iraq, for nothing? Fuck, no.

Reinstating the draft will improve exactly nothing.

Redstone

[ColdWarVet]

9. I made a preemptive strike...

My oldest is already on year 2 of her enlistment. Turned her from a teenage brat with an attitude into a responsible young adult.

My father advocated mandatory military service when I was a kid. Didn't agree with him. I still don't. But it did me a world of good, as it did my family.

Flame away, I can take it.

[Bigmack]

24. No flame....

... just a statement.

I had a bunch of friends who got all that nifty "military makes responsible adults" stuff.

They also lost.... limbs and lives.

For nothing!

The military would be a great experience for young people. If they loved the discipline, they'd maybe even make it a career. If they hated the discipline, at least they'd know what they didn't want to do.

The only flaw in your thinking is that the military does not exist to make up for parental failures... it exists to fight wars. Immoral wars... pointless wars... all kinds of wars.

If we really think our young people are valuable, we don't piss away their lives like we did in Vietnam and Iraq.

The draft is involuntary servitude... slavery.... period.

If we can't fight wars with volunteers, maybe we shouldn't get involved in so many of these clusterfucks.

[madmunchie]

35. My father, son, ex-spouse were all in the military AND not

because of of parental failures. Serving in the military is an honorable thing to do. The problem is when the people at the top are making assinine decisions and are fucking crazy! THAT is the problem, not the military. My son spent 18 - 22 working, going to school and living abroard while many of his peers worked or went to college and did a lot of drinking and partying. Heck, they still are. My son stands heads above so many of his peers for his experience and I am proud of him.

[Bigmack]

51. I'm proud of ME, too...

but not because of what the Marine Corps taught me. Just the opposite. I'm proud I was able to put that shit behind me.

I don't know your kid - or what he did in the service - but, just so you know... I NEVER told my mother anything about what I did. I loved her and didn't want her to know that the stuff she (and the nuns) taught me went out the window after boot camp.

Maybe your son is doing the same.

[madmunchie]

64. My son wasn't crazy about the military

What I saw, as his mother, was his character cemented. His discipline, common sense, maturity and strength all firmly in place. I have always felt that the 18 - 22 year old time is one of the most critical for young men. My son was always a great kid, after the military he became a great man. I haven't always agreed with his decisions, but I respect what he does because what he does is always respectful. He received mechanical training in the Air Force and lived in Germany. He not only received excellent job training, but he lived abroad. He has said to me that while his job (in civilian life) at times was trying, he was grateful to have a job and to have the kind of job that he does. What 25 year old says that? When he was in the military, if he didn't want to go to his job, he had to go to the medical building to get checked out, so he didn't call in sick, he doesn't now either. There are so many things I could bring up and I could look at his 4 step brothers, none of whom went into the military and walked into well paying jobs and all who called in sick on a regular basis, bitched about their jobs, drank, and screwed around quite a bit.

My dad was a man of honor thru and thru, he was in the Air Force to. He was in for over 20 years. I know that there is no organization on earth that is perfect. Heck, if you want to be a priest, well we all know what can happen there. I just know that it isn't the military per se that is evil and corrupt. It is a lot of the individuals in the military and especially the people at the top. Right now with the people at the top, I wouldn't want my dog in the military serving any time.

[Breeze54]

139. Kudos!! n/t

[cynatnite]

25. I used to believe in mandatory military service...

not anymore.

Being a soldier did me a world of good. I matured quite a bit in those four years.

Some of my friends had no business being in the military. They were good people, but the military life just wasn't for them.

Some people and the military are incompatable and I think mandatory service would wind up harming the military as a whole.

[Redstone]

54. Do you kids a world of good to come home minus a leg, or in

a fucking box, won't it?

For nothing.

Redstone

[lostnfound]

74. But it's the luck of the draw, IMO.

Whether it will be an experience that turns a young soldier into "a responsible young adult" or into one of the shell-shocked, PTSD-suffering, chemical-exposed, aged-before-their-time shadows on the sidewalk. Even if it's a 90% / 10% split, it's a huge gamble.

What if she'd been assigned to Abu Ghraib? Or faced with other impossible choices between following orders or her deepest held values?

And why is it that the only major enterprise in our culture known for instilling discipline and a sense of purpose in our youth is one which engages in destruction, not construction?

It sure would be awesome if they created an equal force of young people tasked with rebuilding our nation's crumbling infrastructure, for example. Of equal size and equal funding... Haha. That'll never happen.

[Redstone]

80. Compulsory national serivce? Oh, yes, my kids would do that.

But I'll be God damned if they're going to get fed into the war machine. For nothing.

Redstone

[Raksha]

119. Good plan! I'd be in favor of the idea of reinstituting a draft

if the draftees were given the mission of rebuilding New Orleans. But I agree with you that it would never happen. I don't know what's wrong with this effing country, but we always seem willing to sacrifice lives and treasure for destruction, but NEVER for its opposite.

Re >>It sure would be awesome if they created an equal force of young people tasked with rebuilding our nation's crumbling infrastructure, for example. Of equal size and equal funding... Haha. That'll never happen.<<

[Breeze54]

141. They already did, it's called the National Guard, but they're in Iraq! n/t

[annabanana]

42. thank you. . . . . n/t

[Extend a Hand]

77. Exactly!!!! a draft won't prove a damn thing

It will give the terrorists in charge more poor kids for cannon fodder. A draft will prolong the oil wars. These guys have already proved they don't care about public opinion. Those with the resources to do so will get their kids out. My kid won't go. Never. FUCK NO.

[elehhhhna]

10. HELL NO. I don't trust these bastards with ANYTHING. PERIOD.

We need a militia, not a draft.

[sweetheart]

11. I'm for universal 1 year service

I think the swiss got it best. The national service is a way that all citizens
can bond beyond their class-heirarchy... and as it is mandatory of all persons,
nobody is above or below their social committment, and this is a great social
power in the country.

I don't believe in the draft, but 1 year mandatory service at a certain age.

[RagAss]

12. it won't be worth the blood in our streets...

[killbotfactory]

13. The Draft wouldn't be bad...

If it could only be used for DEFENDING our country, instead of starting shit around the world at the beheast of powerful business interests in this country.

Or if we let the draftees vote on whether or not we should go to war.

[mike_c]

14. never-- better to be a nation of blind sheep...

...than to force people to fight and die for a cause they do not believe in.

[liberalhistorian]

163. I completely understand and agree with

your point. The problem is, we are being killed as a country by such monumental apathy, indifference and ignorance to what is going on in Iraq and with our military actions. And the fact that FORTY EIGHT percent of people are so fucking stupid and blind as to actually think attacking Iran is a good idea, especially after the deliberate lies that got us into Iraq and especially considering the exact same thing is happening with the drum beat of war with Iran, is truly frightening beyond measure. The consequences of such an action will, frankly, kill us all as a nation. We need to wake the hell up before it's too late.

And people are free to resist the draft, too, as they did in Vietnam. I will be the first to get my son the hell out of the country if that does, in fact, happen, and even if I have to go to jail to protect him, and I know you will do the same with your daughter and her boyfriend.

I frankly think that, if a draft is, in fact, reinstated, Dim Son and company will implement it shortly after the 2006 elections, when there is nothing anyone can do about it for two more years. And the first people drafted should be his spoiled, selfish, bratty daughters, and the rest of the Bush cousins.

[driver8]

15. What?? Re-instating the draft so people wake up?? WTF?

Yeah, let's reinstate the draft so more innocent men and women can be slaughtered because of an illegal war that we shouldn't be in in the first place.

I am a veteran, but there is no fucking way my children will ever, ever serve in the armed forces while this shit is going on. Fuck Bush and his war.

[Redstone]

55. Mine either. See #8 upthread.

And I can do it, too. I have places I could send my kids where the fuckers would NEVER find them, thanks to the fact that Mrs R has family literally all around the world.

Redstone

[cboy4]

16. Giving this administration the draft is like giving a hand grenade to

a three year old to play with.

Oh, look at all of these soldiers we have now....let's see, now we can go ahead an invade this country and this country.....

I'm just saying.

[yngliberal]

17. I don't think so....

I am eighteen and I can promise you, I will not be going to fight in some hell hole for the bastards sitting in Washington, DC. They can kiss my ass. And to tell you the truth, many kids feel the same as me.

My dad is a Vietnam veteran and he said they would have to kill him before he let me go off somewhere to die for no reason. Many kids like myself thought about joining the service before this crazy bastard took over and if John Kerry had won, I would've went into the military. Not anymore.

[Bigmack]

26. Your old man...

... is a sweetheart.... saying he'd die to keep you out of war.

Not me.

I told my kid when he turned 18 that he could go ahead and sign up for the draft. I also told him that he never had to worry about being drafted.... they won't take you if you don't have a right big toe. He said he did have a right big toe. I told him that if they tried to take him, I'd shoot his toe off some night while he was asleep.

Dead serious.

Do anything to keep your kid out of the military until this country comes to its senses.

[guidod]

60. I was in the Navy during the 60's

for 6 years. I found Military service to be very honorable. Your dad is right on the mark, don't EVER let them draft you. Your dad, as I, know what the draft does to innocent families. Many families were destroyed during that time.

[leftstreet]

18. You overlooked something in the "poll"

"but only about 1 in 4 said they would support the use of U.S. ground troops in Iran."

:shrug:

Obviously these respondents assume The Cabal would just nuke 'em, limited airstrike 'em, or whatever.

[Dogmudgeon]

19. Fire in the gas tank

I'll ignore, for the moment, the idea that we're so morally and intellectually superior that we should be supporting political schemes as a way of punishing people who aren't as enlightened as we are.

There is a major problem with bringing back the draft now. It is called Iran.

If Bush gets access to a pool of 5-8 million young men and women instead of just 2 million volunteers, he will have enough cannon fodder to throw at Iran's Republican Guards. Bush, being guided by thoughts of whether he would win or lose rather than human considerations, would be more likely to commit this country to war. In a moment of impulsive anger -- a frequent occurrence for him, I hear -- he could launch a military strike that would guarantee us War Without End. Instead of having a joke of a situation he calls "wartime", we will have REAL wartime. We can then laugh our friends and loved ones home in their pine boxes, carefully hidden from the media.

Instead of having a shitty little occupation with 125,000 poorly-provisioned professional troops, we could have a good-old-fashioned patriotic flag-wavin' war involving well over one million conscripts, which would also allow the Military-Industrial Complex to simply fill out a deposit ticket and transfer all of our money into their bank accounts.

The war on Iraq is already a sloppy, sick, humiliating, shameful exercise in boneheaded imperial stupidity. Iran has much better military, political, material, social, and strategic muscle than did Iraq. Iran isn't nearly as powerful as the USA, but it IS powerful enough to make our invasion expensive and painful. The invasion would either be the world's second nuclear war, or involve the bloodiest invasion ever conducted on Planet Earth, turning Iran into a massive abattoir and setting every surviving Muslim hand against the United States of America, dedicating them to blood vengeance and our destruction -- forever.

Within ten years, between four and ten of our cities would be smoldering nuclear ruins, we would be bankrupt, a pariah nation unable to purchase oil, wheat, or cotton, unable to grow enough food for its people, with its population of 175 million (compare to 305 million as of this year) living hand-to-mouth, housed in tent cities because the banks repossessed most of the homes and the landlords kicked the rest of the people out of their apartments for non-payment of rent. The world's power brokers will have called in their American debts and demanded payment on their American investments. The UN would be drawing up plans for the division of the continental USA into a series of administrative Homelands. The biggest culture war would be the squabble over whether to adopt Chinese or Arabic as the world language.

America would be over.

It wouldn't be the rightful punishment of a lazy and immoral nation. It would be complete suicide.

--p!

[sheelz]

40. Spot on!

Thanks Pigwidgeon! wow:


Peace

[Daphne08]

20. I'm not sacrificing my sons for the skewed, misguided policies

of warmongering NeoConservative idealogues who have never seen war themselves!

You want to see Americans in the streets again? Let them start a draft and you will!

[sheelz]

21. Bush is not going to send ground troops to invade Iran...

You're supporting a draft because of a poll?!?! That's fucking crazy. Even Bush could come up with a better excuse for a draft, and that isn't saying much! May I suggest, you should ignore the polls like Bush does and keep innocent kids from an early brutal death.

[Cobalt Violet]

22. Notice how upset those with draft age children get?

That anger is exactly what is needed to reign these monsters in. That proves your point to me.


But only if the rich are not exluded.

[sheelz]

27. The rich kids won't be drafted.

I can't believe your promoting putting innocent children's lives in danger to prove a point.

[Cobalt Violet]

28. I'm not promoting anything of the kind. Stop twisting my words.

If people don't demand it stop, someone's innocent childen's lives will end. Why should the rich be excludes?

[sheelz]

30. Are you promoting the rich should not be excluded?

[Cobalt Violet]

31. If the rich don't go, no one should.

That's about as simple as I can explain it.

[sheelz]

36. I tend to think if the rich kids go then the Repubs would

really support Bush's "solution" for Iran.

[Extend a Hand]

79. Most people here are already protesting and working to end the war

The point is that a draft WILL PROLONG this war and allow for additional resources wars. It plays right into the neocon hands. Read the PNAC paper Rebuilding America's Defenses.

If there is a draft those with the resources to do so WILL GET THEIR KIDS OUT. They will get them out of the draft or out of the country.

[Lars39]

45. So which relative are you willing to sacrifice?

Come on, choose one. Or three or four.

[Breeze54]

142. Yup! Draft the Rich!! Feed the poor!! I'm with you on this!! n/t

[Boojatta]

23. Link

Proposed Procedure For A Military Draft

[guidod]

34. Do you honestly think a draft will wake people up?

You should "despise" yourself a lot for even having the idea of reinstating the draft! Have you ever experienced a draft or are you one of these chicken hawks that just sits back and toots your horn and waves a flag without a thought of the consequences?

How the hell do you know what is happening in Iran and why do you, so easily, buy into the same fear machine that got us into this mess in the first place? Why are you so ready to risk your own childs life because of the words of liars?

If you've been watching or reading the news of late I'm sure you've noticed that their words, over the past 5 years, are nothing but lies! Do we have to throw away more lives to prove this to be so?

I'm sure you love your child very much and want nothing but the best for him, but I guarantee you a draft would not be good for his health. It also wouldn't be a good way to treat other peoples children. I faced a draft in the 60's and believe me it's something this Country should never have to go through again.

You're right, the people in this current administration are a bunch of chicken hawks and greedy pricks. Please, don't let them take your 25 yer old child away from you.

[sheelz]

38. Great post guidod!

But you're making me :cry:

[guidod]

39. Here's a

:hug: There would be a billion more tears if there were a draft. :-(

[sheelz]

47. Thanks!

:hug:

Some people scare the hell outta me. There are consequesnces. Big ones! A draft would only lead to total death and destruction for all of us. People would start chanting--Nuke them! And Nuke Them! That's no awakening. :think:

[annabanana]

43. I remember that when there was a draft...

there was a death watch in the Senior year of High School...
("what's your number")
I never will accept the wrenching of kids, against their will, into the bloody maw of the biggest theft in the history of mankind..

The draft DID mobilize the kids.. but it did not end the war.

[tjwash]

70. So how do you propose to get everyone out in the street?

The reason I did the OP, is so people would get as steaming mad about this whole march to constant war that the military industrial complex has us on, as you are RIGHT NOW, because quite frankly, nothing else seems to be working.

Hell most people seem to be content to keep arguing about meaningless wedge issues such as "those damn Mexicans keep coming across the border"

Come on, I'm all ears. I.M. me with it, start a new post on it, whatever it may be, I would love to know, because all I see from you, and everyone else that thinks my idea sucks right now is just posturing, pissing, and moaning. You know, the NIMBY shit the cons always make fun of.

How do you propose we get the very people that keep enabling this corrupt administration, as pissed off as you are RIGHT NOW, and get them to see how fucked up this entire corrupt administration is? How can we get the to see how our military industrial complex has bent us over, and WILL keep us fighting forever, and ever, and that there is actually no end in sight. EVER. How can we get ma-and-pa nascar in the street alongside with us libs in protests of the same magnitude and size that helped end the Vietnam war?

Nothing huh? Yeah that's what I thought...

[driver8]

101. You want to send more innocent men and women to die in a war

that was a lie from the beginning? Your logic is that if more people die in war, the citizens will get angry and that will end the war and all the killing?

Hey, if I shoot myself in the head...I won't get cancer!!

Makes sense to me.

[guidod]

105. Threaten our children, good idea.

I've done several threads on this subject in the past. I always find it amazing when people like you post this shit and even dare to say one word that threatens our children. Let's hear some honesty from you for a change. Have you ever been in the military? Have you ever faced a draft? Do you have any children? Do you favor a draft? What do you propose we do to stop this fake war?

I, personally, don't know what will end this insanity that's going on in this country right now. I do know one thing, our children have nothing to do with this.

I would really like to hear your answers to the simple questions I asked you.

[sheelz]

107. The draft is not a solution!

I'm already steaming mad about this murderous administration and so is much of America. The magnitude of the Vietnam war protests did not end the war nor did it prevent a draft. Bush really doesn't care what ma-and-pa nascar think. He's a megalomaniac! A draft would lead to a blood bath and Bush would wank-off. Repukes would support nuking the ME instead of a draft. It would lead to the end of world.

As far as a solution--I don't have one. Altho, I would suggest one simple solution-- to end promotion of asinine pro-draft threads, such is this, and focus on a real solutions!

[AtomicKitten]

41. I have a 19-year-old son.

Forgive me if I can't read beyond your first statement; I'm sure you have posted a thoughtful piece.
I just can't deal with this with a boy of draft age.

[electron_blue]

44. You support sending people to war involuntarily? Then "they" have won.

[Lars39]

46. No. At this point, it would be enabling the PNACers.

[Marie26]

48. Intellectually, I agree with you

But I don't want to see my friends or family sent to the front lines.

[Ariana Celeste]

49. Absolutely disgusting.

I already have 1 family member out in Iraq. I have a really good friend who left for boot camp just a few days ago, and will very likely end up in Iraq someday.
Your draft would put my SO and my brothers at risk of having to go out there, too. And apparently your kid judging by your post upthread. Do you know anybody out there now? Do you have to fear for somebody every day, fear that they will come home in a body bag, fear that they will come home alive, but with serious issues, or maybe come home missing limbs?
Can you honestly say that you would be willing to spend every day in fear for your kid, wondering why you haven't gotten a letter in weeks. Wondering if the recent attack happened to involve your kid. Would you be willing to spend every day aching for your child to be back home? Just to make people see what you want them to see?

That just makes me sick inside. I know a man in Iraq; he's out there so someone's kid doesn't have to be.

:banghead:

[cry baby]

61. No, because the well-to-do will still get their kids out of harm's way.

The ones with no "connections" will be sent involuntarily to die for a cause they may not believe in.

Case in point - the shrub himself.

[guidod]

67. Is that the only reson?

[No Exit]

62. Do you have any draft-age sons?

If not, I'm afraid your credibility suffers somewhat, from where I sit.

Meanwhile, I am reminded of the movie "Sophie's Choice". Sophie was standing in a concentration camp line, holding her two small children, a boy and a girl. A German soldier with an especially cruel streak came up and said, "You are to choose one of your children. If you try to bring both of them with you, all of you will be killed." Sophie dissolved into panic, but eventually she whimpered, "Take my little girl." Her reasoning was that the boy, slightly older and larger, would be more likely to survive the hardships of the camp. At that point, we, the viewers, saw the scene in which the soldier carried away her screaming girl (about 2 years old) to be killed.

She knew, forever after, that she had committed a horrible act. There was a shadow over her life forever after.

I sure wouldn't have wanted to be poor Sophie.

[lostnfound]

72. OT: While I loved (or admired) that movie, that critical scene

has haunted me, makes me want to vomit, still, 20+ years later.

Really, there are times when I wish that filmmakers would decide that there are horrors enough in reality and would exercise some small restraint when it comes to making stuff up. Really it was psycho to have that in a blockbuster movie.

As psychotic as real life.

[baby_mouse]

63. I appreciate the sentiment, but can see no way of filtering the results

They might end up drafting nice, pleasant, sensible people instead.

How about they only draft boastful pricks?

[Finder]

66. Having my sons join ROTC...

since I do believe a draft will happen in the next decade. I do not think it will be because of the Middle East though...

South America is forming an interesting bloc at the moment.

[guidod]

68. Where did you come up with that crap?

[Finder]

69. What "crap"?

[guidod]

85. The crap that there will be a darft

in the next decade, and it will be because of South America not the Middle East. Where do you get your information?

It's nice to see your sons are in the ROTC and interested in serving their Country, as long as you didn't force them to. NOBODY should be forced to fight in a war, not your kids or the Presidents kids. Have you ever been through or seen a draft? If you have you should know exactly why there should never ever be a draft. I saw one in the 60's and it tore apart millions of people, I joined the Navy to stay off the front lines in Vietnam.

No High School kid should worry about dying because of the mistakes of their parents.

[Finder]

89. Agree on your last point...

ROTC is the best chance of avoiding the front lines in the event of a draft. I do not want a draft but it seems unavoidable.

As far as the comment on South America...have you been following the elections down there at all? I realize everyone is focusing on Iran at the moment but those of us who paid attention before and during the Iran/Contra bullshit know that all is not what it appears to be.

[guidod]

91. I disagree with your first point.

Right now I have both of my dogs in my chair with me and they're making it very difficult to respond. Okay....my brother was in the ROTC in the early 60's then joined the Army because he was about to be draqfted as soon as he graduated from High School. By joining he was able pick and choose what he wanted to do and he chose communications, which kept him off the front lines. He was stationed in Okanawa while I was in Guam and my other brother was in the Navy on a Destroyer doing WESPAC tours in Vietnam. My Mom and Dad had three kids, all Boys, and we all were over seas at the same time. When we got out we learned that it was illegal for them to do that to a family.

What I'm getting at is, during a draft, the military will do as they please unless you catch them. The ROTC is NOT a safe way of staying clear of a draft. Thousands and thousands of family's suffered during the draft in the 60's.

I've seen some of the elections in South America but haven't watched close enough to make any kind of judgment call. I did see that several country's have gone very liberal with their elections but I really would like some input from you on the dangers. I'm looking forward to your response.

[sheelz]

108. There are no "front lines" anymore.

Young men and women are getting blown to pieces while bringing supplies. Even the green zone isn't safe or in a neighboring country like Kuwait.

[Finder]

109. Agree, but I was not referring to Iraq. n/t

[sheelz]

111. I was using Iraq as an example--

in response to "ROTC is the best chance of avoiding the front lines in the event of a draft." The examples I stated could happen in any country we invade, occupy, liberate, or go to war with.
There are really no front lines in any war. It's just military strategist try to organize the chaos.

[Finder]

90. A few links...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4079505.stm

Representatives from 12 South American countries have signed an agreement to create a political and economic bloc modelled on the European Union.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060501/grandin

Even as the United States wages a war in the Persian Gulf that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice describes as a central front in an epic "generational struggle" in defense of Western values and freedoms, another geopolitical threat has been massing on its southern flank. Over the course of the past seven years, Latin America has seen the rebirth of nationalist and socialist political movements, movements that were long thought to have been dispatched by cold war death squads. Following Hugo Chávez's 1998 landslide victory in Venezuela, one country after another has turned left. Today, roughly 300 million of Latin America's 520 million citizens live under governments that either want to reform the Washington Consensus--a euphemism for the mix of punishing fiscal austerity, privatization and market liberalization that has produced staggering levels of poverty and inequality over the past three decades--or abolish it altogether and create a new, more equitable global economy.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20060413/cm_thenation/20060501cook;_ylt=A86.I2J80T5EEnwA6Rb9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

[Breeze54]

143. What?? You didn't see the draft in '03, '04, '05, ...?? n/t

[klook]

73. No draft, no war

Bring 'em all home now!

We should be fighting to get a truly defensive military force, as opposed to the aggressive pre-emptive military that the neocons' foreign policy has created. If the U.S. military was a defensive force, more people would find military service a desirable option.

[FredStembottom]

75. NO WAY IN HELL with MY draft-age kids!!!!!

Not for this insanity and evil!!!!

No one gets to make rhetorical points with the blood of my kids or any one elses!

[Strawman]

76. Compelling arguments on both sides

I think there is merit to the argument that a draft would make unnecessary wars politically impossible. If the more influential middle classes and upper classes had to put their own children on the line, they'd never allow these wars. That's a possibility.

The other possibility is that you'd just give the war machine more bodies, the extremely well to do rig the system to get their kids out of it and you just throw more middle class kids into the meat grinder. Those people in turn become tied to the cause of the war by blood. Some might oppose the senselessness of the war, but others would have a vested interest in promoting it so that their kids did not "die in vain." So the political effects of the draft are complex.

So I don't know. The current system is patently unfair. It preys upon the poor and it makes going to war politically easier. I believe that. But what scares me about a draft is if you had an administration like this one and they were able to withstand the political heat in a post reinstated draft world, they could really go apeshit with the war plans. Even more than now. Things that were previously logistically impossible would become possible. That's very scary.

Maybe the culture is different enough now than it was during Vietnam and the draft would serve as a check on military adventurism, but maybe it's really not.

[NNN0LHI]

78. Parents who are stupid (and there are plenty of them) will be glad...

...to send their kids off to die for idiot George. Draft or no draft.

The proof is that we still have kids joining up to die today.

Mine wouldn't. Because if one of my kids told me they were joining the military today to become part of Georges occupation force in Iraq I would disown them. They wouldn't be my kid no more.

Your idea will not work.

Don

[Breeze54]

144. ,,........nice sentiment there...n/t

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

81. To quote Chris Rock ...

I ain't fightin'.

[meganmonkey]

84. Guess who gives us the finger at our demonstrations?

DRAFT-AGE YOUNG MEN.

I demonstrate 5 days a week at rush hour. It's a pretty peace-friendly town, we get a handful of detractors every day, but only a select group actually give us the finger or shout swear words.

Literally 95% or more of the people who react this negatively to us are young men. They have no clue. Maybe mandatory service would learn 'em a thing or two :(

[Pavulon]

86. No

The military functions, well mostly, because people are not forced in. People may not enjoy the time in but no one I met blamed anyone for the fact that they were in the army.

People understood who was responsible for them being in the army, they agreed to the rules voluntarily. Drugs were a no go, people still smoked, some got caught. But they weren't forced to change their lives against their will.

The Draft would cause a multitude of problems. The primary one being people should not be forced into service against their will.

In the event of a real emergency a draft would not be needed.

[rman]

94. Reasons for the Draft

(the neocons know this, which is why they prefer 'voluntary' and/or career and/or privitized soldiers)


The short version: IF you go to war, you better don't go with people who have no qualms about killing people and/or go with people who are there only for the money. If 'ordinary people' feel there's no good reason for a particular war, you want to have those people in the army, lots of 'm, at every level. It's a good way to prevent war.


The longer version
(quoted from The Magistrate)

"The first is that conscript armies tend to reflect in their ranks the political views of the society at large. This is an important check against an armed force being used for usurpation and tyranny. In the twentieth century, there were instances where the refusal of conscripts to obey politicized officers prevented military coups from succeeding. A wholly volunteer force often becomes politically isolated from the views of the general public, and may come to reflect only the political views and aspirations of a particular segment of society or region of the country from which the recruits are predominantly drawn. Such a body, considering itself an elite more patriotic than the general run, is much more easily moved to act in a coup against a democratic government, when it is in the hands of political bodies it disagrees with and despises as not embodying the "true" spirit of the country, as its officers and riflemen conceive these to be. By the same token, in times of widespread popular disconsent, a conscript force is more likely to act in accord with the desires of the people than the government, and refuse to suppress the people, or even move to overthrow the government.

The second follows somewhat from the first, though it is a distinct consideration. It is more difficult to commit a conscript force to war and to maintain it at war, because much greater political resistance will be encountered if the venture does not enjoy a very widespread popularity among the people. This is an important check against a government's engaging in "wars of choice", as opposed to war forced upon it in the eyes of all. An all volunteer force can be more readily committed, because fewer citizens are involved in military service, because the soldiers are drawn from families and regions more likely to approve of martial ventures in the abstract, and because there is a widespread sentiment that volunteers have made their choice and must abide by its consequences in the pinch without complaint. Indeed, the ideal force for true "adventuring" by a government is a body on the lines of the French Foreign Legion, composed of persons who are not even citizens of the land they serve: no one in the country will give a damn what happens to them, and casualties suffered by them will have no political impact whatever.

A third consideration is that widespread military service serves as a sort of social leveller. It brings people from different social stations and different regions into close contact, and breaks down some of the natural isolating factors in society that make it easier for people to hold stereotypical views about those different than themselves. This can serve as a sort of political solvent, making more difficult the cultivation of social and regional rivalries that depend on a certain degree of ignorance about other people for their usefulness to political manipulators. It has in the past put some persons in the way of technical training and educational opportunity that has proved valuable to them in civil life that they might not otherwise have come upon.

A final consideration is that widespread military service diffuses among the people a real knowledge of military practices and caopabilities, and the true nature of military organization and operation. This is valuable in many ways. It is no accident that the worshipful attitude towards the military so widespread in our society today arose only some years after conscription ceased. If you had polled the population of the U.S. in the early sixties, well salted with former conscripts who knew the score, you would have found very few people responding that the military was a very competent organization worthy of great trust. The people today are often and easily deceived about military matters, because they do not know how the military machine operates: they imagine things can be done much more quickly, and much more precisely, than they really can be. This allows deceitful leaders to camouflage preparations for war, and the conduct of war, in ways that would be much more difficult if the experience of military matters was more widespread among the people.

"If you wish for peace, prepare for war."

[Ron Green]

98. Thank you.

This is what I have typed countless times here, and you say it so well. I'm just too lazy to do what you've done in this post.

Thanks.

:patriot: :applause: :yourock:

[guidod]

106. You're absolutely right.

I agree with all of your considerations. I think service for the government is something everyone should take to task. Structuring the service you speak of must be done during peace time and not in the middle of a war. When I say service to the country I don't necessarily mean military, but something that would work together with the military so that we would ALL work together for a common goal, peace and security. If it were to be done right now I think you would see another Vietnam. If it works in Israel I'm sure it would work here. It would de4initely bring all of us closer together and work very well as a deterance to war.

Your words are very thought out and worthy of a standing ovation. :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo: :applause: :woohoo:

[Cleita]

99. I think all suitable candidates that voted for Bush should be

drafted including the party girl Bush twins and all Bush cousins who are draftable. The rest of us shouldn't have to go fight in a war we don't believe in for a man we don't believe is a legitimate President.

[Anser]

100. Well thought out but....

You should know better by now that of course a draft wouldn't work the way you'd like it to. Pacifists who find a way to not be drafted will be thrown in prison or be on the run, while chicken hawks and their children will be able to get out of it without a problem and face no consequences.

And as to the "only if you are willing to send YOUR" kids type argument. Its OK, but what about "only if YOU are willing to go?"

Draft age "kids," believe it or not, have minds (complete with belief structures!) of their own.

A bunch of legislators and politicos practically all of which are well beyond draft age, should not tell me I have to go kill anyone.

And OP, I won't make an assumption, but are you of draft age? How about the posters of the topics that so convinced you? How about Randall?

[driver8]

102. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that "anyone who

supports a draft to provide more 'cannon fodder' for these war criminals is absolutely, f*cking insane."

I cannot believe that anyone in their right mind would condone sending more and more innocent men and women to the slaughter house known as Iraq (or Iran).

Jeesus Effin' Keeriste -- I've heard everything, now.

[guidod]

104. WELL SAID!!!

Not only f*cking insane, but everyone that is supporting a draft should be given an M-16 and shipped to the front lines in Iran or Afghanistan. After they get there let them worry about getting their own body armor. HOW DARE THEY PUT THEIR OWN LIVES AHEAD OF OUR CHILDRENS!!!!

[rman]

124. No draft specifically for these criminals' wars

But if the US army would have been a draft army, this war would probably not have taken place.

[progressivebydesign]

132. THAT'S NOT WHAT THE ORIGINAL POSTER SAID...

I should know better than to visit threads late at night when people are tanked. sheesh.

[driver8]

152. Excuse me? Tanked??!!

Have you ever heard the expression, "Don't assume..."?

I read the original post. The OP wanted to bring back the draft so that people would get angry and stand up against this administration and hopefully end the war. To me, this means providing more cannon fodder for them to have at their "disposal".

What, you think Shrub and company are not going to use fresh bodies if they are provided?

Or maybe you can enlighten us all on what the OP said.

[YouthInAsia]

110. We definitely need to reinstitute a draft. Thats the only

way to get the american ppl involved in this ridiculous war. There is not commitment by the american ppl towards this was like there was in WWII. No victory gardens, no war bonds, etc etc. The only ppl sacrificing for this war are the families of the soldiers. A draft would engage the emtire nation in the discussion and wactualy wake the out of touvh youth up. With a draft, we may actually get 500,000 ppl in the streets to protest this war. A draft would bring this war to a rapid end.

[sheelz]

112. Then go after their money.

People would be less supportive of war if they had to give up their money. In fact, some/most would rather give up their kids then their money. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Make it like-------95% of their money! That will wake them up.

[YouthInAsia]

113. well, with gas prices already over $3.00/gallon here in phila

maybe they will awaken soon. That'll hit em in their pockets. And summer hasnt even begun.

[guidod]

118. Good post sheelz!

[guidod]

117. We don't need to reinstate the draft.

You'll probably never see the American people committing to a war, like they did in WWII unless there are the same sort of conditions. Remember we were attacked before WWII, Pearl Harbor, and pulled into a World War. You would see a much different attitude if we are attacked, as you did in Afghanistan after the World Trade Ceter attacks. Most of Americans, 90 %, and most of the world were standing with President Bush after that attack. Unfortunately he used the WTC attacks as an excuse to go into Iraq, something the republicans wanted to do since 1998.

Reinstating the draft would cause another Vietnam, where 50 to 60 thousand Americans lost their lives. We don't need to kill our children to get American citizens to wake up and pay attention. Americans are paying attention and they're as mad as hell.

[Breeze54]

145. THERE ALREADY IS A DRAFT!! Ghheezz!! WAKE THE F**K UP!! n/t

[guidod]

150. NO THERE IS NOT A F**KING DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S VERY OBVIOUS YOU'VE NEVER SEEN A REAL DRAFT OR YOU WOULDN'T BE SHOWING YOUR IGNORANCE. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN THROUGH A REAL F**KING DRAFT????????

[Breeze54]

126. You may have a point.....

with so many 'STOP-LOSSED' National Guard coming back from Iraq and NOT re-enlisting;
IMHO?
I'd say you're all fucked come hurricane season...and any other disasters...
Good Luck...
:grr: :grr:

[guidod]

154. If you are so pissed off

as to what is happening with our National Guard and nobody re-enlisting, perhaps you should enlist. Please answer this, should there be an all out Draft?

[NMMNG]

128. In my opinion

Anybody who supports the draft should be the first to sign him/herself and his/her children up.

[progressivebydesign]

131. While many of your are becoming enraged...

my nice neighbor across the street.. the local police officer in his late 30's with a brand new baby and a toddler at home, was just pulled out of his job and sent overseas to Iraq. Seems he's been a reservist for years... and suddenly, because Rumsfeld wants to keep the political implications low, and the costs low, he is half a world away. Is that fair? Is it fair that no one seems to give a shit about the reservists and national guard that are being yanked out of their lives and sent overseas.. and being held over year after year over there because Rumsfeld KNOWS that people would go apeshit if he used the full military strength needed for what he's gotten us into? Do you think it's fair that the reservists, who signed up thinking they were part of a homeland defense military, are being sent over to be killed... or if they are simply injured their benefits are basically nothing because it's cheaper than paying long term military health benefits to regular injured troops?

[driver8]

153. It's not fair for anyone to have to go and fight this war. I feel

bad for your neighbor, believe me. I also feel bad for the men and women in the "regular army" and the Marines. I would also feel bad if someone's child was drafted and sent over there.

The war is a no-win situation no matter who is fighting it. Drafting more innocent people to be slaughtered is not the answer.

[TheBaldyMan]

133. I don't know how it is in american neighborhoods but here in the UK

it seems like everyone I know has someone whose family member or the son/daughter of a workmate is serving or has served in Iraq. It's been 3 years and everybody has had a turn. I heard someone that was in my ex-unit who was killed by an IED whilst driving his truck. I did my basic training with one of his relatives. These are not isolated cases that no-one has heard of. Do you know someone whose son or daughter is in the forces, then they will have been there and will be re-deployed there in the next two years. The idea has dawned already that this isn't a game and touches the lives of ordinary but very real people.

Don't believe me? Wait until the papers announce Prince Harry is posted to Basra commanding a light armoured reconnaisance troop. Maybe when the celeb mags start flying paparazzi into downtown Baghdad to get a snap of HRH the message might get through to the wilfully dense.

[WernhamHogg]

147. I believe

I believe that if it was announced that Jenna, Barbara, Jeb's kids and all the kids/grandkids of the Repukes who still support this war were going to be drafted first thing tomorrow, the war in Iraq would end TONIGHT and it would be a LONG time before some fake cowboy/fake "president" started another unjust war.

Just MO.

[fortyfeetunder]

159. You have a point

I was talking with someone about the lack of outrage on current events, and compared it to Vietnam...the answer was
1) no draft
2) no tax increases

Perhaps the escalating petrochemical price can take care of #2....

[liberalhistorian]

162. As the mother of a teenage son,

part of me wants to scream HELL FUCKING NO to ANY kind of draft or forced military service. But the rational, reasonable, intellectual side of me recognizes that one of the reasons people are so ho-hum about Iraq and any other possible military action is that, for the most part, it doesn't affect them or their children, families and friends. They don't have to worry about their children or relatives being drafted and sent into combat. Hence, the apathy and indifference.

The major impetus for the anti-war movement during Vietnam was, indeed, the existence of the draft. Young people and their families had to constantly worry about the threat of being drafted and sent into combat for a cause that they quickly realized was bogus and nothing more than political games. And they knew they'd be a pawn in those games, to satisfy the political ambitions of a few so-called "leaders." And many saw the well-off and middle class get out of the draft by going to college, then staying in school to obtain graduate degrees in order to avoid the draft. Those who didn't have the money for such a course of action were out of luck, and were drafted and sent to Vietnam in disproportionate numbers. And people paid far more attention to current events and what was happening with the war than they do now, precisely because of the draft and the threat that it posed for them and their families.

So, there's a part of me that, while I absolutely hate even thinking it, agrees that bringing back the draft may be just what is needed to kick the apathy and indifference and ignorance right out of American brains.

[Spinoza]

164. Back in the 60s we used to think

that advocates of the draft, advocates of (literal) involuntary slavery, people who--in their minds--believed passionately that they had good reasons to force young men to serve in the military against their own will---were SOB's. Now that I am the father of a 22 year old son---I still think so.