Am I the only one sick of the Duke rape scandal?

[serryjw]

How many unreported/non-prosecuted rapes happen everyday. They don't include an Ivy League school and racial overtones.

[rfranklin]

1. They are idiots for hiring strippers, the strippers are idiots for ...

stripping. They should all be sentenced to hard labor.

[cynatnite]

3. so why should the victim of a crime be sentenced to hard labor?

and why should the players before they go to trial?

I'm sick of the story, too. But thankfully, I'm a little more level-headed.

[Renew Deal]

72. Because it sounds like the only victims are the players.

There are many things wrong with this story. The biggest is that there is no evidence of sex. No DNA, no latex, no anything. Something about this story stinks.

[cynatnite]

75. Would you prefer it videotaped?

:eyes:

It's called vilifying the victim. The defense will continue to do it and corporate media will spread it.

Not all the evidence is out, either.

[Renew Deal]

78. I can't get over the DNA thing.

I have a hard time believing that 3 guys raped her and there is nothing there. Do you believe there is a possibility that this never happened?

[cynatnite]

80. I honestly don't know...

I wasn't there and I won't pass judgment on this woman or even the men involved until all the evidence is heard and the facts are laid out.

I'm angry that this woman is being accused of lying before anyone knows anything. She's the victim, but being treated like a criminal. That's what pisses me off.

[Renew Deal]

86. Are you just as angry

that those students are being treated like criminals before anyone knows anything?

[cynatnite]

89. No, I'm not

Women have been used as punching bags, sex slaves, and other types of degredation. Men have been in charge for a long time...well, pretty much since the beginning of time. It's hard to undo thousands of years of programming that gets passed down from generation to generation.

Even though I'm not angry about the men, I recognize the fact that they are innocent until proven guilty. The woman is the victim. I'm comfortable with this because I don't see the benefit to making a judgment before we know everything.

All we can do is have faith in the courts and hope justice is done. I may not even like the outcome, but until we know everything, I will not pass judgment on anyone.

[NaturalHigh]

98. So far, there is not one shred of proof...

that the players raped this woman. They have been accused of being rapists, racists, and "elitists" and have been harassed by simpletons who just assumed that this woman was telling the truth and that the DA was doing his job correctly. Women never lie? DAs never screw up?

The players are the victims here. The will be exonerated by the legal system, but there will always be people who will believe that they are guilty.

[Finder]

105. The players are not victims...

There is evidence of an assault(fingernails, contusions) and an eyewitness to at least the racial verbal assault.

Of course there could be alternate explanations but the team is not offering any self-defense scenarios at this point.

[NaturalHigh]

116. All of that "evidence" is easily planted...

and the police don't seem to put a lot of credibility in the "eyewitness" to the "racial verbal assault."

[cynatnite]

120. How do you know?

There hasn't even been a goddamn trial!!!!!! Why not wait and find her guilty after that? :eyes:

[cynatnite]

106. Why are you saying she is guilty before there is even a trial?

Judge much? Do you know ALL of the evidence? Why are you listening to corporate media?

[NaturalHigh]

115. Why are you saying the players are guilty before a trial?

Judge much? That's priceless coming from someone who is incensed that the woman isn't automatically believed but thinks the men are lying, raping bastards as soon as they are accused.

[cynatnite]

119. Find a post where I said that. n/t

[Occulus]

125. Done!

"Are you just as angry that those students are being treated like criminals before anyone knows anything?"

Response to Reply #86
89. No, I'm not

[cynatnite]

129. Uh, that doesn't say I said they were guilty

:eyes:

Geez, you're really stretching you know. I said I'm not angry at how those guys are being treated. Not even close.

[NaturalHigh]

130. Just paraphrasing what you said in Post #89.

When asked whether you were angry that the men were assumed to be guilty, you answered "No, I'm not. Women have been used as punching bags, sex slaves, and other types of degredation. Men have been in charge for a long time...well, pretty much since the beginning of time. It's hard to undo thousands of years of programming that gets passed down from generation to generation."

Okay then, because some men are bastards we all are. Never mind that false rape accusation DO happen. Sometimes they even get reported.

You went on to say that "Even though I'm not angry about the men, I recognize the fact that they are innocent until proven guilty. The woman is the victim."

Um, newsflash here - if the players are innocent,the woman in NOT the victim.

Again, flame away. I have work to do now, but I'll be back to rebut later.

[cynatnite]

131. Read post #79

I am perfectly comfortable with the thinking 'men are innocent until proven guilty' and 'the woman is the victim'.

I prefer to wait until there is a trial and all the evidence is laid out. I'm not going to say 'hey, the woman's a liar' based on the defense lawyer and corporate media.

It's useless to prejudge when so little is known...especially when this thing hasn't even been played out in the courts.

[NaturalHigh]

179. If the players are innocent, the woman is not the victim here.

The players are. You can bet that Nifong will whip this horse until it finally dies, and there will be no apology forthcoming from the DA's office when these guys are exonerated. They will be known as the raping, racist lacrosse players from now on, innocent or guilty.

[Rich Hunt]

126. don't forget

The courts and the police are often used to stigmatize political targets. I know a couple of sensitive guys who were 'fingered' for domestic violence when they did no such thing. This is not in the interests of those who want to protect REAL victims of domestic violence, not at all.

[KingFlorez]

82. There have been cases tried without DNA

DNA is not the sole proof that something happened

[hexola]

93. I doubt a Lacross stick has DNA (nt)

[Renew Deal]

155. Please provide a link

that says that she claims that she was raped with a lacrosse stick.

[hexola]

165. why should I?

It's speculation...suggesting a way she could have been raped and have no DNA evidence.

For the sake of formaulting an arugument we can make any assumption we want...be it based on fact or speculation...

[Renew Deal]

166. This has to be a joke.

And a very clever one.

[hexola]

167. So I cant speculate?

We cant say "what if" on DU?

Give me a break...

I dont have to have a link...plain and simple.

this is not a trial...I am not presenting evidence...

I can speculate endlessly...

[Renew Deal]

168. Sorry

I will fix it.

[LostinVA]

114. Women on here have been raped with a guy using a condom

And there's been no DNA. In almost 70% of rape cases, THERE IS NO DNA EVIDENCE.

She was beaten, the ER doctor and nurse say she was raped. I believe them.

Unbelievable. It's 2006, and there's still this stuff going on.

[Renew Deal]

158. It's unbelievable all right.

It's unbelievable that you're willing to throw these guys in jail without a trial. It's unbelievable that even though there is no DNA, no latex, no lubes, no nothing.

<snip>
"But Cheshire argues that even if the alleged attackers used a condom, it is likely there would have been some DNA evidence found suggesting that an assault took place. He said in this case, the report states there was no DNA to indicate that she had sex of any type recently.

"The experts will tell you that if there was a condom used, they would still be able to pick up DNA, latex, lubricant and all other types of things to show that — and that's not here," Cheshire said.

Legal analyst Mickey Sherman agrees. Sherman told The Early Show co-anchor Hannah Storm that "most experts will say that's not going to prevent an exchange of DNA."
<snip>

http://www.wboc.com/Global/story.asp?S=4754874&nav=MXEa

It's unbelievable that you're willing to throw these guys in jail even though there may be pictures that show her injuries prior to the reported rape.

"Two days ago defense attorneys for the Duke lacrosse players said they have time-stamped pictures which apparently call into question aspects of the alleged victim's account of the incident."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20060412/cm_rcp/is_the_duke_rape_story_unravel;_ylt=A86.I1E2gD1E9E4Blwj9wxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

Unbelievable. It's 2006, and there's still this stuff going on.

[LostinVA]

163. Yeah, you're right: unbelievable YOU'RE still saying this crap

in 2006. I never said I wanted the "guys" to go to jail: I want the rapists to go to jail. I want a trail. I want justice for the victim. YOU only want the vitim to be called a lying whore. 75% of all rapes have ZERO DNA evidence. Big fucking deal.

So, you're listening to then defense attorney spin... what experts? Not the experts I've been hearing. There is evidence an assault took place... or even sex... he's just stating there was no DNA evidence. Like 75% of all rape cases. Read what he says. This time slowly and with comprehension. See? Very good.

You have a great agenda, don't you? Whatever. IGNORE. I don't listen to people who spit on rape victims just to further their own weird agenda. Which you surely have. I'm tired of you people on these rape threads raping the victim again. It's sick.

I like a good debate, but I won't feed into someone intellectually masturbating to their own agenda, regardless of facts.

You can't even debate my words, that's what funny to me. You just make up stuff I didn't say, and use the Defense attorney's spin to "show me." It's pathetic, you know that. It amoks me sit here and laugh at the you banging your head against a wall. *giggle*

[Renew Deal]

164. You just changed your story.

"There is evidence an assault took place... or even sex..."

Wow, look at that addmission. Isn't there also evidence that she showed up at the party with bruises consistent with rape?

You can question my motives or claim that I have an "agenda" all you want. The difference between my an you is that you have picked sides already and I haven't.

Is there even a remote possibility that she was not raped at the Duke party?

[Beelzebud]

122. Was anyone ever charged with rape before DNA evidence?

[Caoimhe]

137. Apparently

if there's no DNA, the woman is a lying bitch, according to some on here. :eyes:

I seem to remember hearing about an email from one of the players talking about raping and killing a stripper. That doesn't sound like an innocent school boy to me.

[Renew Deal]

154. Apparently

no matter the evidence, the students are all rapists and should be jailed. :eyes:

The email you are referring to wasn't in regarding this incident. But don't let the facts get in your way.

[Caoimhe]

169. Innocent until proven guilty

applies here. But don't tell me this isn't disturbing, especially only hours after the alleged incident.

<snip>
-less than two hours after the alleged rape, McFadyen sent an e-mail saying he was planning an encore to "tonights (sic) show." The message, addressed "To whom it may concern," said, "however there will be no nudity."

"I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the(y) walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off," wrote McFadyen, a 6-foot-6, 225-pound Atlantic Coast Conference honor roll player who was one of five Duke players from the exclusive Delbarton School in Morristown, N.J., adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying. The e-mail was signed with McFadyen's jersey number, 41.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/05/national/main1476021.shtml

His parents must be so proud!

Amazing that it's okay to blame the victim but not the players, all prematurely. I will wait for the trial and see what comes down.

It's amazing the nasty tone that can be conveyed in a post, isn't it?

[LostinVA]

175. Yeah, implied tone can be amazing, considering it's just words on a page..

[Renew Deal]

153. Did anyone ever lie about rape before DNA evidence?

And some were exonerated when DNA testing was finally available.

"At the same time, DNA aids the search for truth by
exonerating the innocent. The criminal justice
system is not infallible, and this report documents
cases in which the search for truth took a tortuous
path. With the exception of one young man of
limited mental capacity, who pleaded guilty, the
individuals whose stories are told in the report were
convicted after jury trials and were sentenced to
long prison terms. They successfully challenged their
convictions, using DNA tests on existing evidence.
They had served, on average, 7 years in prison."

Which evil sexist said this? Janet Reno

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

Throw these guys in jail. Evidence be damned. Only 3 of the 46 did it, but we don't know which 3, so improson all 46. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

157. There is medical evidence consistent with rape in this case

The woman is not lying about being sexually assaulted.

[Renew Deal]

159. How do you know?

How do you know she is not lying?

Who has that medical evidence? You've seen it?

[LostinVA]

112. There IS evidence of rape -- where are you getting that???

Even the defense attorney didn't say that... per the DA, the ER doctor and nurse have stated she was RAPED.

[Renew Deal]

160. Prove it.

Post something that says that.

[LostinVA]

161. Prove it??? It's been all over the news!

The ER doctor and nurse found evidence consistent with rape. That is medical terminology saying per our exam, she has all the signs of being raped. The rape kit evidence report probably won't make the news until the trail. But she WAS raped. Understand? All of your crazy spinning won't and can't change that fact.

Geez... have your own opinion, that's a great thing for a person to have -- but have your own facts? Nope. And, that's what you're trying to do. Unless you want to say the ER staff are involved in some kind of cover-up....

You definitely AREN'T for "innocent until proven guilty," that's for sure.

And, you know what? Your posts have been annoying em for a long time... this sexist, anti-victim rant of yours is sickening to me... and I'm sure it is also sickening to any DU rape victims who are reading this (and, just to answer your unspoken question: no, I've never been raped, although I have been sexually assaulted in other ways.

IGNORE. Have fun spreading your poison to other people... because I'm thinking you like doing this... like dragging this woman through the filth a little more...

Educate yourself about rape and its victims.

[Renew Deal]

162. You can't prove it.

All you have to do is post a simple link. GO ahead and ignore the truth. It's easier than proving your point. Coward.

[jazzjunkysue]

14. I was deletted for similar language, and except for your sentencing,

I agree that both stripping and paying to see it are stupid.

Go ahead. Delete this, too.

Stripping degrades women, so, having a stance against it would be a liberal attitude, in my book. We didn't fight for equal rights to be used as objects of sex for drunken college boys.

Stripping is exploitation. Period.

Many states and countries call prostitution a victimless crime. So, is stripping a victimless crime, too?

If so, should we allow it? Regulate it? Require bodyguards? If she's a professional, shouldn't she have known about the inherant risks, and taken some kind of steps to insure her safety?

I was sick of it all as soon as it started.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

16. It's a job

You don't like it, don't do it.

You don't approve of it, that's your prerogative.

But, you know, you do end up labelling yourself as a perfect mysoginist. You do realize that, don't you? When your opinions are fashioned so as to impinge on the choices other women make, you're just as bad as the earliest Male Chauvinist Pig.

Just so you know that, and that might be why your post was once deleted.

Choices. We fought for them, and to hear someone try to denigrate whatever the hell a woman chooses just lets me know that that woman did so completely not get the point.

[hexola]

21. There are male strippers too...arent there...?

It really denigrates both sides...the stripper and the strippee IMO...no matter which way the sex is going...

[OldLeftieLawyer]

26. Yeah

It's a job.

Who the hell cares who picks what job? I find it insufferably stuffy.

[mondo joe]

101. Having OldLeftieLawyer back is like a Christmas gift in April.

Unexpected and completely delightful.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

109. Jeez..........

You just brought tears to my eyes.

Cut it out. I got this reputation to maintain.

Thanks a million, you sweetie. It's great to be back.

[Occulus]

132. None of the male stippers I know feel degraded by it.

The female strippers I've known actually enjoyed doing it. They made good money, too.

The only people who feel stripping is degrading are the people who feel it's degrading. The people actually doing it, I've found, don't feel that way about it at all. One guy I know is proud of how well he does it.

You're wrong, pure and simple.

[LostinVA]

141. I'm so glad for

The ignore button....

[cynatnite]

19. So what are you saying about this stripper?

I agree that prostitution and stripping exploits women, and there are women who do it freely of their own choice...especially stripping. I knew a stripper in CA and she didn't mind it at all. She made good money and had no problem showing off her body. Thing is, she wouldn't do private parties no matter how much money she was offered. She told me once that she was offered $5000 for a party. Still wouldn't do it.

Even if a woman chooses to strip or prostitute, no matter my feelings, they do not deserve to be raped. Period.

This case is another example that tells women...if your report it, you will be vilified by the press and public.

[LisaL]

23. No, they do not deserve to be raped. But is there any evidence

that there was any sex involved at all? How do three men gang rape one woman and not live a trace of their DNA anywhere on her?

[cynatnite]

25. Ejaculation is not a prerequisite for rape

plus, there is a hell of a lot we still don't know.

You're making the assumption that she is lying. The victim is the perpetrator.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

28. There does not need to be ejaculation

for DNA evidence to be left.

The penis gives up microscopic traces of semen all through intercourse, not only at ejaculation.

That's why "pulling out" has had such a FABULOUS record as a method of birth control. :sarcasm:

In this case, no traces were found. I really wonder how they're going to proceed with this one.

This is one of those matters that might never be fully known. Lots of them out there, folks.

[LisaL]

30. I have no clue how they are going to proceed either. I guess

we will have to wait and see. But there was more, a lot more evidence in Kobe's case-at least there is no doubt that actual sex was involved-and look how that ended up.

[cynatnite]

33. She dropped it because of screwup by the court...

and because she was being vilified in the press. Her family and friends were being ripped into as well.

I followed that and what happened to her was a crime...and I'm not talking about Kobe Bryant either.

The notion that it's assumed a woman is lying about something so traumatic and horrifying is disgusting. It makes me want to puke.

[LostinVA]

143. What they did to her was appalling -- they literally

followed her around the country, harassing her, making her leave jobs, etc. They called her a slut and a liar and a scammer... it made me sick. Did she write a book? Go all over TV to tell her story? Huh? No....

[cynatnite]

146. Yep

that really made me sick, too.

[LisaL]

29. And you are making the assumptions she does not lie.

You assume she is the actual victim. As far as I can tell, the evidence just does not add up.

[cynatnite]

32. What makes you think we're privy to all the evidence?

I don't say the victim is guilty right from the start...before there is a trial or even when we're not aware of all the evidence. There's a hell of a lot we don't know about this, but why make the assumption she is guilty.

She's getting vilified in the press and in the public based on what a defense attorney releases.

When women get treated like this why should any other woman report their rape?

[LisaL]

34. Would help if there was an actual rape to report, don't you think?

[cynatnite]

37. You've given women a reason not to report their rapes

How tragic and how fucking predictable.

[Lars39]

38. It was reported that she had injuries consistent with rape.

[Lex]

41. The doctor and trauma nurse and those who did the rape kit

said that there was injuries and trauma consistent with there being a sexual assault that night.

We don't know the details of what those medical records show yet.

Nifong says he is proceeding based on the medical evidence and the expert opinions of those who attended her at the hospital, as well as other evidence that has been recovered that hasn't been released yet.

Expect indictments on Monday is the latest news.

[genie_weenie]

36. Aren't you assuming the accused Men are guilty?

Please see my post #31 for things which have been brought up which cast doubt upon this woman's allegations.

The very terrible thing is yes, many women are raped and feel they have no chance of getting the men who assaulted them convicted, but that doesn't mean we should castrate these men before a grand jury even convenes!

[cynatnite]

42. I won't assume the woman is lying...she's still a victim

We don't know all the evidence and we don't know the details of exactly what happened. There is still other evidence besides the DNA.

No one should assume this woman is lying and no one should say these men are guilty either. You and others are passing judgment by what you hear from corporate media. How anyone can trust that amazes me.

Keep in mind, the more this woman continues to be vilified in the press and by the public, the less women will come forward to report their rapes.

[LisaL]

44. No, we don't know exactly what happened.

But of what I know, makes me doubt very much it happened as she said it did.

[cynatnite]

46. Before knowing the evidence and before a trial, you're assuming...

that the victim is the liar. :eyes:

You're a dem, right? Just want to make sure.

[LisaL]

49. Do you think there should be a correlation between someone

being a dem and accepting the allegations, or what?
Like, all the dems believe the woman, but all the repukes believe the men? Hah?

[LostinVA]

145. And, whomever did it, she was raped

Unless the ER doc and nurse are "in on it," too....

[genie_weenie]

47. Your most salient point is

that women, whichever way this goes, are going to be hurt by this case.

[cynatnite]

51. I think whenever a woman accuses a man or men...

of rape and it gets public attention, the tendency is to vilify her as a someone who screams rape, but lied.

That hurts women who do get raped. Why would they want to be raped over and over by the defense, corporate media, and the public? Why would they want to be called a liar, a whore..a slut? Why would they put themselves, their family and their friends through this kind of hell?

This is a very emotional issue for me and I feel very strongly about it. I hate, as strong as anyone can hate anything, the phrase 'alleged rape'. It's an assumption the woman is lying right from the start. She won't be believed before anyone knows anything.

Why on earth would any woman want to suffer that after already having suffered?

[LisaL]

57. Well, cases like this one aren't going to help anybody.

Sorry to say this, but it's just how it is.

[cynatnite]

61. What helps is for everyone to shutup and let this thing play out...

in the courts. That's my belief, but it'll never happen.

[LisaL]

63. Is it even going to get to court? I have my doubts.

[cynatnite]

68. We don't know. It's a wait and see...not pass judgment time n/t

[Lex]

43. No one has suggested the men be castrated.

I am suggesting that the victim shouldn't be vilified however---particularly when the medical people who attended her that night made reports that said her injuries were consistent with being sexually assaulted.

[LisaL]

45. Sorry, those tests are not conclusive. One can say

she had injuries consistent with rape. But not that she was definitely raped.

[cynatnite]

Oh, for crying out loud

:eyes:

'consistent with rape' is a medial phrase. No physician will say 'definitely raped' at any time.

Geez.

[LisaL]

50. And WTF is that? Because there is no test that could be 100%

certain she was raped.

[cynatnite]

55. So you're not going to believe the physicians and nurses?

Wow! That sounds like some of the talking heads that didn't believe Terry Schiavo doctors. :eyes:

[Lars39]

59. ...

lizzy didn't believe Terry Schiavo's doctors. :D

[cynatnite]

71. Interesting :) n/t

[LostinVA]

147. Is that who it is? They're on my

Ignore -- what a surpersie... yeah. Mrs. Schiavo's doctors lied, and Mr. Schizo has beat her into being brain dead, if I remember the many screeds from last year....

[bettyellen]

185. she believed bill frist and now the defense attorney

because they best know the medical condition of people they've never met. and they are totally impartial.
lizzy, you were duped on schiavo honey. don;t let it happen again.

[LisaL]

60. I do not doubt them that she had some injuries consistent

with rape. But what else can those injuries be consistent with? Since these tests are not definitive, it does not mean this woman was raped.
It just does not.

[cynatnite]

66. The only way to be 100% positive that Terry was a vegetable...

was to cut her brain open.

These people who examined her are professionals. They know what they are doing. They're very experienced in rape examiniations. Go talk with an ER doctor and they'll educate you.

I've worked in an ER. Physicians will say either the injuries are consistent with rape or they are not. They won't word it the way that satisfies you.

[LisaL]

76. In many rape cases, there is no injuries.

So, does it mean these women were not raped? No, it does not. Just as if a woman has injuries consistent with rape, it does not mean she was. Maybe that's why rape cases have such a low conviction rape-there is no medical test that can say for sure that a woman was raped. Sorry, there isn't.

[cynatnite]

79. Considering the vilification of women who are raped...

all the evidence in the world in many cases won't convict. It's mostly men doing the judging and mostly men who are more willing to believe the 'poor guy who was accused by a 'whore'. :sarcasm:

Let me tell you a story...not an uncommon one from what I've heard.

I have a good friend who was raped in the backseat of a car. She went with the guy willingly to his car. It was summer and we had all went to a party at the beach. This was when I lived in CA. The man raped her and by the time we found out, she was running from the car, screaming her head off without her bathing suit.

Alcohol had been involved, but no one was to the point of being drunk to not know what they were doing.

I took her to the hospital and stayed with her while she was examined. She cried so hard during it and I knew she was being traumatized again. The police took her statement. A few days later she had to meet with a detective at the police station. I took her to that as well.

I wasn't allowed to go in with her and waited in the hallway. When she came out an hour later, she was crying again and stormed out of the station. We got to the car and she told me how horribly the detective treated her. He accused her of lying. She wore a bathing suit and went with the guy. That was the sole justification of saying she lied. This was from a law enforcement official.

It didn't matter she had bruising in her pelvic area and it didn't matter her arms were bruised as well. It didn't matter that she told him no or that he locked the doors to try and keep her inside. None of it mattered.

Because she was so badly done by this one person, she had no reason to think anyone would believe her. So, she retracted everything she said and went to put the pieces of her life back together.

We heard a few years later that the guy was arrested after raping two other women.

You may say that I shouldn't let one experience cloud my judgment, but this isn't a single occurrence. With as many women who are raped in this country on a daily basis, situations like this happen very often. Do some research and you'll find out the statistics don't add up. There are far more women raped in this country than there are men who are convicted. My friend's story is one example of why.

[LisaL]

81. I have no doubt women are being raped on a daily basis.

Unfortunately cases like this one do not help the rape victims.

[noamnety]

187. There are NO cases that help the rape victims (nt)

[Lex]

67. But other evidence that DA has, that we don't know about yet,

combined with the medical reports can paint a picture of what happened that night.

[Lex]

56. Which is why we have jury that would decide what happened--

based on the evidence they will see and hear in its totality.

[genie_weenie]

52. That was hyperbole,

but they have been villified and their photos have been distributed at Duke on fliers calling them rapists.

What I've always held in this case is: the outcome is going to hurt women and I am stunned at the number of progressives who want blood in this case, extracted by the State. I have read more sympathy for convicted murders on threads.

edit: typo and to add post #64 as a possible scenario, which may or may not be reasonable.

Oh and to add thanks to all for the excellent, empassioned but very polite and cordial conversation about a terrible situation.

[cynatnite]

58. I do want justice...

I want justice for this woman and the men, both. I want justice after the process has run it's course. When there is a trial, all the evidence has been heard and a jury has come to it's decision is when it's time to come to a decision.

If she did lie, she'll be dealt with...as she should. But we don't know. Just like we don't know if these men are guilty. If they are found guilty, they should be punished. I'll never understand why that is so hard for some people. :shrug:

[Lex]

62. I think that many progressives in this case don't want blood

but are hoping that the victim in this case isn't forgotten in light of the fact that she's made accusations against those who quite privileged.

There are many aspects of the case that have been highlighted--class, race, gender, etc.

I hope that justice is served in this case, whatever the outcome may be. If the men are not guilty then I want that to come out certainly.

[LostinVA]

148. Thank you -- you worded it perfectly, Lex

[marions ghost]

171. because of the pattern of injustice

to women in rape cases, the tendency among concerned people (such as liberals) is to defend the victim's right to fair treatment under a flawed and antiquated system. It is rightly assumed by those who rush to defend the victim, that the rapist has the advantage.

Repeat--You are assuming a level playing field between rapist and victim. In cases of rape that are reported, "equal treatment under the law" does not exist in practice. Your's is a Pollyanna viewpoint.

Never mind the occupation of the victim here. It doesn't matter. The chances of a female Geek being raped walking home from the library alone is not low. The chances of any woman--eg. female DUers or their daughters --being raped at some point in their lives is unfortunately quite high.

Imagine if this was your daughter who was raped in a society historically dominated by men. You might get it then.

[KingFlorez]

83. And what makes you think the accused are not guilty?

It's obvious she was attacked

[genie_weenie]

99. "It's obvious she was attacked", Ahhh! But by Whom?

and the reason I believe they are not guilty is the US legal system. And my doubts about this case are in my post #31.

[cynatnite]

107. The US legal system hasn't even had a shot at this case

You've been using the corporate medial system to make your judgment.

[genie_weenie]

113. You are correct this case has been tried in the Media.

But, I would disagree with you that my judgement comes soley from the MSM.

[cynatnite]

117. I don't get where you are getting it or even why before there is a hearing

That's what boggles the mind. Here at DU, where so many progressives proclaim...innocent until proven guilty....

in this case...the victim is guilty before there is a trial.

Tell me how this makes sense. Maybe I'm just a stupid woman, too. Maybe I should just fucking shutup and not report it if I'm ever raped. From the responses I'm getting here, that's what it's starting to sound like.

Read post #79. That'll show you another reason why I should shutup.

[hexola]

121. lighten up...It's not a contest...

None of us are involved, and we are free to speculate and brainstorm as we like.

It's best to look at these things from all angles...

[cynatnite]

124. Sure, before there's a trial find the victim guilty

:eyes:

and I've got just as much right to tell people that she is still the victim and the men are innocent until she's proven guilty.

Oh, and I'll tell people to lighten up when they get pissed at georgie for starting a fucking war, for lying and a thousand of other injustices going on in this country.

[hexola]

128. your melodramatics mask you points...

seriously...go take a walk...

[cynatnite]

133. you sure hate the fact I'm right...

personal attack works best for you.

[hexola]

135. I thouroughly believe she was raped...

The media is reporting there will be a grand jury and indictments next week...

You are manufacturing your own outrage...

Your over the top attitude makes people defensive and you then portray that defensiveness as pointing to some hypothetical guilt of the victim.

[cynatnite]

139. No, I'm responding to those who are assuming she is lying

I am outraged by the treatment of this woman both in the corporate media and by those on this thread before all the facts are even out.

:eyes:

[genie_weenie]

134. I never typed 'you are a stupid woman' or 'just f*cking shutup'

So, I am a bit peeved, that you seek to make a sexist attack on me. Your post #79 highlights a horrible story and one that is not uncommon from what I have heard.

But, do you not see how my claiming the men are not guilty does not equate with the victim is lying?

What do you want me to think in this case? These men have been slandered all across the nation had their photos passed out on fliers calling them rapists. Are all men rapists? Period. Am I wrong in thinking it's *possible* she might be so messed up and accused someone who did not rape her? I posted another possible scenario on post #64. Is this out of the realm of believability?

Isn't the State still progressing on this case and seeking a trial? What more do you want?

[cynatnite]

138. And the victim hasn't been slandered at all?

To make assumptions about something we know so little about is presumptuous and judgmental.

I'm not willing to slam the victim or the men so early on.

[genie_weenie]

142. Yes the victim has been slandered

This case isn't about justice, since one can not get justice in the US only a cheap panacea which leaves a rancid, oily taste in the mouths of those who have come into contact with the legal system.

And I do know several things. Chief amongst them, a woman accused 3 men of raping her and 46 are suspect, so 43 men are innocent and being subjugated to the spotlight of the all powerful State. How's that?

[cynatnite]

144. Because there are a lot of facts we're not aware of...

I'm not going to cherry pick info, that may or may not be reliable, before there is even a hearing.

And I'm not going to take corporate media's word, either.

[genie_weenie]

151. You sound like Rumsfeld with his knowns, unknowns

known unknowns and unknown unknowns...

[cynatnite]

170. Nice, a personal attack...

Since that's the best you can do, it's time for me to step out of this discussion. Don't expect a reply.

[genie_weenie]

172. Whatever!!!! You consistently avoided any response

to my points and simply went off on your 'Everyone is attacking the victim' Mantra.

What I really like was your statements that we don't have enough info to determine this case, and then you determined she was attacked as though it was a fait accompli. Give me a break.

What I would have liked was a response which acknowledged the standard is not guilty and the State must prove what it alleges.

Why don't you read over my posts #31, #134, and #142? And then tell me where I am wrong? I don't know why I type this you've made up your mind. All men are potential rapists, right?

[jazzjunkysue]

181. I'm saying her remedy, going to court, may not prove to be very satisfyin

atisfying if she was indeed assaulted. She should have done as your CA friend does and kept it at the club.

[joeunderdog]

177. Sue, I stymied a self-proclaimed Feminist one time on a simple question.

She believed that prostitution s/b legalized-- progressive idea even today, but it was 20 y/a. She said that a woman has a right to use her body to earn a living just like an athlete and wondered why we should try to moralize it. But she also believed that Playboy and strip clubs degraded and objectified women, and contributed to violence directed towards them.

I asked the question: why is it worse to just look at them in a magazine or club than to look at them, feel them and penetrate them?


Curious...where are you on this point? Anyone else see a problematic dichotomy here?

[jazzjunkysue]

180. Rights and responsibilities

Of course, our system of laws make alot of foolish behavior legal, and that's as it should be. I don't know if legalizing stripping would even work, but it sure would probably ruin it for the customers. Is it really important enough for us to create a government ministry of burlesque? I think not.

I have no firm opinion about prostitution, either.

But the fact remains that if women didn't go door to door taking their clothes off for drunken college students without any kind of security measures, they wouldn't end up trying to get justice from our legal system. And besides, if she was assaulted, there really isn't any way the real damage can be undone. She and her family may find some satisfaction from jailing the culprits, it still won't undo the damage done to her.

Women should not go door to door. It's one thing to do this in a club with security around, and it's another to go door to door.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

73. It's an opinion.

Not everyone has to agree with you.

[genie_weenie]

77. Keep stripping!

If you make an decent wage and feel comfortable with your profession then do it! I think strippers should not be scorned so much, they are just women earning money by using their bodies, no different then pro athletes, or dancers or singers. There's a good deal of skill involved in being a stripper.

[TorchTheWitch]

95. I had no intention of stopping

Even though this shitheel and so many others that dislike it think I should. Fuck them. I don't go around calling people idiots or anything else for what they freely choose to do for a living however I feel about it personally for the simple reason that I have NO RIGHT to JUDGE other people for the choices they make to put food on the table and a roof over their head. Not in a million years would I pound nails on a hot tar roof no matter what you paid me, and not in a million years will I ever go back to growing roots at a desk 40+ hours a week pushing paper around and kissing the asses of people I can't stand and who are often a whole lot less intelligent than me (and especially not for the absurd pittance I got paid for it). If someone else does a job that would give me the weeblies to have to do myself even if I got paid a bucketload for it and they are happy and successful at it, then good for them... if they like it and are successful then I'm happy for them.

Don't get me wrong, this job is not for everyone and mostly because of the damned stereotyping of other people and the ridiculous notion that the human body is somehow evil and should be covered and closeted. It's a damned disgrace that in this country we are supposed to feel ashamed of our own bodies; that we've been trained to actually recoil at the human touch.

Actually, any dimwhitted drunken coked up dork can work as a stripper... only the successful ones are skilled (and thus walk away with most of the money). ;)

[readmoreoften]

92. you should be tombstoned. /nt

[LostinVA]

111. So... why is it the victim's fault?

She is a single mom working her way through college... retail or fast food is low pay and long hours, this way she can make more money and have time with her kids and studies. Or, do you mean strippers are trash and deserve what they get? Huh?

Regardless of who the rapists are, the woman was a victim of a CRIME. She was raped.

Nice non-liberal resposne.

[iamjoy]

188. Perhaps You'd Like It Better Elsewhere

like a country where they have the death penalty for rape - you know like the woman gets stoned for "letting herself" get raped.

[NorCalDem]

2. No

I know this is Duke and all, but let me know when the trials over. I don't need 24/7 coverage on ESPN and about 5/7 coverage on the cable news.

Let it go people. Us bantering about it at the water cooler is not going to effect the outcome of this situation in anyway, and by speculating we just look foolish.

as I've always said, "when you assume something, you make an ass out of 'u' and 'me'" :D (Get it?)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. Duke's not Ivy League,

and how they're gonna handle this is of no import to anyone except the parties involved.

As an old defense lawyer, though, I find the ancillary details interesting. Like, why did the coach resign so quickly? What about that 911 call? Why is Duke already releasing recruits from their letters of intent?

Ah, well, it beats reading George Will.

[serryjw]

6. Of course it is

and certainly their law school

[OldLeftieLawyer]

8. It is not

Check out the Ivy League schools = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

Amazing what people believe without knowing.

[serryjw]

11. Lets change my adjective to 'elite'!

satisfied? That wasn't the point of the post. If this was the University of MS it would not be getting the attention

[OldLeftieLawyer]

12. Ah,

a gracious "I stand corrected," mixed with just enough resentment at having been wrong that it renders anything in this post meaningless.

Ah, I love the smell of ............. never mind.

[serryjw]

13. Amazing how students i dentify Duke

as 'similar' to the old Ivy's..But you still missed to point of the OP!

http://www.studentsreview.com/compare.php3?adduid=803

[OldLeftieLawyer]

15. No, I didn't, and I spoke to it in my response to your OP

It's just that getting something so wrong when your point is so egregiously mischaracterized distracted from what your OP was about.

Hard to sell me on anything substantive if you're naked.

[MadMaddie]

5. I am sick of it.....but once again....it shows that racism is alive and

well...

I am curious as to how this would have turned out if the the stripper were white....

The dialog not only blames the victim but somehow her race has been thrown in the mix....Limpballs calling her a ho...(whould he have said that if she were white)

I also suspect that the University had grown weary of the Lacrosse team and their antics...and this was a way to dismantle the team....just a thought...

[LisaL]

17. I think the DA would not go forward with this case, if the victim

was white. There is no evidence of rape occurring, as far as I can tell.

[hexola]

18. ...compare to Natalee Halloway...

Intoxicated women in peril...it's taken nearly a year for people to accept that she may just been wasted on booze and pills...

[goclark]

20. If the stripper had been white

She would probably have her own Reality TV Show starting next week or replacing Nicole Richie to star with Paris "the elite darling lady" Hilton on television.

And, if the Team had been from a Historically Black College ~ well we know the answer to that one.

[LisaL]

22. Yes, everybody just adored the alleged victim in Kobe

Bryant's case.
:eyes:

[cynatnite]

123. They adored her so fucking much they crucified her in the press...

and she dropped the charges. Notice he did settle out of court with her on the civil case...hmm, interesting.

[KingFlorez]

84. I honestly think if the situation were reversed

And she was white and the players were black, people would be more inclined to believe her

[LostinVA]

176. I agree with that

[Kahuna]

7. No, you are not. Even Jerry Springer has been droning on and

on about it. :crazy:

[IsItJustMe]

9. The msm loves this garbage. God forbid if they ever did some real

investigative journalism. All sensation, no substance, 24/7, dumb down America. I can't stand watching the media anymore.

Like I want to know what the best juice is to drink. They spent an hour on that on CNN the other day.

[LostinVA]

149. I can understand being tired of it, but it isn't garbage

I think the case resonates with so many people because it has so many cultural flash points: rape, good girl-bad girl, racism, sexism, elitism, etc. Just take a look at the threads on DU.

[annabanana]

10. distraction du jour...

c'est ca.

[carolinalady]

24. God No........I was going to post the same thing earlier. n/t

[genie_weenie]

31. It's interesting people are sick of this case, now

that several things have come out which cast a huge question over the truth of the rape allegation.

- NO DNA from any of the 46 white players on the woman.
- First responders claim she was "passed out drunk".
- No mention of Duke players at the Hospital immediately after the woman was taken there.
- Pictures of the woman, purportedly showing bruises and signs of intoxication prior to the entertainment.
- Possible false emails sent by the DAs office from the account of one of the players in a fishing for evidence try.
- The prosecutor Nifong is up for re-election.

Funny, all the pre-judging of the Men as pampered or spoiled athletes, or as racists, vigils against them, passing out flyers with their pictures, cancellation of the season. All prior to a conviction or even a grand jury.

It's been interesting to read so-called progressives clamoring for the State to rush in and destroy the enemies of the people...

[Lex]

35. None of the rape-kit information or her hospital records from her stay

has been released, so we don't know what those records show.

Apparently the medical folks doing the rape kit and examining her said she had injuries and trauma to her body that were consistent with being sexually assaulted.

We haven't seen ANY of those medical reports, but Nifong said he is proceeding based on the medical reports, the opinion of the medical people involved, and the alleged victim's statements.

Many people have said that she might've been drugged with the date rape drug because she was nearly unresponsive when the police got there, but no smell of alcohol on her. I would imagine that the hospital tested her to see if she was drunk or had been drugged.

There is no DNA evidence recovered in around 75% of sexual assault cases.


Truth is, we don't have all the facts, the medical records, or any of that. We only have a small amount of information at this point.

[LisaL]

39. If there is no DNA evidence in 75 % of rape cases, it's probably

because the women wait before going to the police. This woman was examined soon after the alleged rape. Are you telling me you believe that she could have been raped by three men and not one of them left a trace of DNA on her? How believable is that? Let's go back to Kobe's-even though he didn't ejaculate, and other DNA was present in alleged victim-Kobe's DNA was found as well.
So, I don't buy that three men could have raped this woman and leave no DNA evidence behind.

[Lex]

48. I think it is pure conjecture that in 75% of rape cases, DNA

isn't recovered because the women wait before going to the police.

I do believe that a woman could be sexually assaulted in a number of ways that wouldn't necessarily leave DNA evidence on her body.


It will be up to the DA to get a conviction based on the evidence he does have, which we don't know about at this time. If he doesn't have that evidence, then there will be no conviction I guess and that would be a correct outcome.

[LisaL]

53. I am not exactly sure where there is no DNA

in 75 % of rape cases comes from. I heard it on TV in association with this case, but I have seen no link to any statistics on that.

[aikoaiko]

103. As I recall, the problem is most rape victims shower before reporting,

Apparently, not the case here.

[genie_weenie]

40. Is it Possible?

she was raped prior to her "performance" that evening? Are any of my points at all worrisome to you in this case or do you believe I am incorrect? (please note: the tone is not aggresive I would just like your opinion)

[Lex]

54. It is *possible* that she was raped before her performance that evening

and I guess any number of things are *possible.*

The DA will be building a case based on what is *reasonable* however.

Some possibilities are more reasonable than others. All possibilities don't equal reasonable doubt.

[genie_weenie]

64. So for a reasonable doubt scenario

her bodyguard, sick at not making 33% of her stripper money, rapes her prior to her show, she showers and arrives at the house drunk and with evidence a sexual assault had occurred. But, after passing out drunk and waking up in the hospital is afraid to implicate her bodyguard for fear he will kill her. After all, it's much easier to implicate a bunch of snot-nosed preppy college wanna be Nerd Hockey players.

Please note I don't know if this happened this may even be far-fetched but, there's too much we don't know as you have expertly pointed out. So, I am going to wait until the State PROVES their guilt before I denounce these men.

[Lex]

69. I will be interested in seeing what other evidence there may be

and the DA has suggested that indictments may be handed down on Monday.

[genie_weenie]

70. Thanks for the excellent, empassioned but very cordial conversation

about a terrible situation.

Peace.

[Lex]

74. It is a terrible situation

for everyone involved. Very sad.

It happened in my neighborhood.


Peace to you too, genie_weenie.

[Post]

65. Duke and Predatory Feminism?!?

This should be of interest to us all, for very different reasons. http://postanapology.blogspot.com/2006/04/duke-and-predatory-feminism.html#links

[LostinVA]

183. Geez... what a revolting "essay"

[Hidden Stillness]

85. Sick of the Male Media Attitude Toward These Crimes

I am sick of the disgusting treatment given to this and every other issue of this type, with an attitude that is a combination of vulgar leering and judgmental lecturing against the woman/victim. It is the treatment where an all-male panel lectures us on "what a serious charge rape is," and then they go back to telling rape jokes. It is only serious when the victim might win. No matter how many hours, days, weeks, they exploit the story, you never get the feeling that you were learning anything about the larger issue--as when they covered "their friend" O.J. Simpson, the woman-beating murderer, and never talked to workers at battered women's shelters, experts on violent rich male atheletes, etc., but always had time for Bob Costas and other sports males with favorable things to say about the rich famous male. The treatment of raped, murdered white women is always about whether or not they were drunk, and always encourages hateful attacks from our dear "liberal" male "friends" here and elsewhere. The entire media routine is less about covering an issue, than it is about males controlling the presentation of the information.

Many rapes leave no usable DNA, although ("odd" that people aren't mentioning this) there was DNA on the towel that she kept from the bathroom. Also, her false nails were ripped off; a clue. When I first heard that there was "no" DNA--media-speak--the first thing I thought was, "Oh God, no; don't let it be a false claim." I always fear that because males will make future actual victims pay a price for it. Then, finally later, they admitted that this was the criminal attorney team making these statements, unquestioned by male media, and I thought, "What the fuck is this?" This pre-trial smear against the victim's case is totally unchallenged, and being passed off as lab results! They trick you every time when they censor. I was reminded of a rapist I remember reading about years ago--early '90s or whenever DNA first started to be used; and this shows you how they follow the news--who changed the way the victims were attacked and suddenly no longer ejaculated into the victim, leaving evidence. Now, the attacker beat and raped the victim, but ejaculated outside. This apparently happened here, into the towel, but she got it.

I am sick of the depressing, corporate male media treatment of these attacks against women, exploiting and salivating over them, then lecturing anyone who supports them--an ugly combination. They don't even admit that rape is a hate crime against women, but now "convert" it to the male-acceptable racial angle. How horrible that Rush Limbaugh referred to the victom as a "ho." How much better when black males call women "bitches" and "hos."

[Lars39]

87. Excellent post, Hidden Stillness!

:yourock:

[LisaL]

88. She didn't keep any towels. I have no idea where you got this

information, but it's completely false.

[northzax]

152. the towel was seized when the search warrant was served, they say

imagine! someone took your TOWEL from your BATHROOM and found your DNA on it. wouldn't it be more suprising not to find your DNA on your towel in your bathroom?

[cynatnite]

90. So true! Well said! n/t

[NaturalHigh]

97. Why are you so angry?

If the players are exonerated (and nothing found so far is damning to them), then THEY are the victims here. Personally, I hope they sue this woman for everything she has and everything she earns in the future. You can bet that Nifong will never prosecute her for lying since he's staked his entire political future on this case.

There is no way her story is true. She didn't get raped and beaten by three guys and then not have any DNA evidence or latex or spermicide on her. This is a setup for reasons that we are aware of yet. This woman is lying.

There, I've said it. Flame away.

[cynatnite]

108. Yeah, gotta find HER guitly before the trial

:sarcasm:

[NaturalHigh]

118. She won't be on trial for anything.

No way the DA will prosecute her for lying.

[cynatnite]

127. You've already found her guilty...just as so many here have

they've listened to corporate media and the schill of a lawyer who couldn't wait to get this out in the press. Why do you think he's trying to discredit her?

[TheWraith]

174. Lighting is going to strike you dead.

After all the screaming and crowing the pro-prosecution people here on DU have done, after the piles of threads demanding immediate imprisonment for the entire group of athletes, after the guaranteed guilty verdict that was lovingly delivered by the media, NOW you're suddenly becoming a big fan of witholding judgement and scrutinizing allegations, now that the case appears to be falling apart? You have the gall to say that the attorney is a shill, and somehow being deceptive, by announcing that the state's own evidence could clear his clients?

[NaturalHigh]

178. I'm not on a jury...

and this woman isn't going to trial for anything. I'm just expressing my opinion, which so many have felt free to do when damning the players. Skip the trial, hang the bastards has been the dominant opinion here.

From the information I've seen, I think she is lying, but my opinion isn't a legal verdict.

[jazzjunkysue]

186. The only thing I'm sure she's guilty of is foolishness. She shouldn't go

door to door without a bouncer to protect her. People like me who don't immediately side with her don't necessarily think she's lying, either.

If she was harmed, by anyone, that indeed is a crime and I wish I could undo the damage. But the court is a really weak place to try and attempt any kind of remedy after the fact.

But until the whole story is revealed, it is equally biased to condemn her or the college team.

[0007]

136. Excellent post. It just goes to show that the "good old boy club"

is still alive and doing well. If this woman has nothing to hide, she should be able to obtain the best (pro bono) attorney money can buy that can break down these suckers down like a double barrel shotgun, put 'em in a corner and make pets out of them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. And what bothers me...

Is the near universal acceptance of the basic tenet of our legal system: "innocent until proven guilty" - unless the alleged crime is rape, in which case it is incumbent upon the guy(s) to prove he didn't rape anyone.

... and when it is reported that lab results do not support the allegations, it's obviously all because the lab reports (and those who report them) lie. The alternative is too big a threat to viewers the world-view to be acceptable.

Of course the defense attorneys are the ones who are disclosing the test reports, it's their job to protect the interests of their clients, which, I feel compelled to remind, are not "rapists" until the jury says so. Likewise, the status of victimhood.

There is too little information available to us to determine guilt, (and determining innocence isn't the legal systems' job - it's the default setting).

It is a demonstably false premise to believe that women are incapable of fabricating allegations, or that rape is a unique category of crime in this regard.

[genie_weenie]

150. Excellent reasoned post however,

some on this thread are going to attack you for "finding the woman guilty". Good points though! :thumbsup:

[leftstreet]

91. John Wayne was raped?!

[ms liberty]

94. No, I'm kinda sick of it too...at least of seeing it here at DU

Some DU'ers have immediately - like the day it happened! - jumped to the conclusion that she was telling the truth, that these guys were guilty. A smaller number have advocated their potential innocence. And some DU'ers are, like me, awaiting more facts before making a decision.

Some people have tried to make this a racial thing, as if that explains it all; some people have been all over the stripper aspect, both her being a stripper and them hiring a stripper.

I've said all along that she could be telling the truth or lying; that the guys could be telling the truth or lying. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE FACTS ARE AT THIS POINT. Just because things are being said in the news as fact does not make it so, and everyone here knows it.

I personally could care less about her being a stripper, if she wants to strip for a living, it's up to her, not me. If a bunch of guys want to watch a stripper, hey, it's up to them, not me. It's not my business. That's the thing about liberty: unless you're stepping on someone else's civil rights, or are a danger to society, what you do should be your own business.

There are some inconsistencies in the information we are hearing. I'd like to know about the phone call, where the girl called 911 about the guy "leaning against the wall" yelling at her and calling her a n*****. First she says she and her friend are walking by and it happened, then she said they're driving by. What does that mean, which is it? She said the guy was "leaning against the wall" when he yelled that at her: which wall? Does she mean the CAMPUS wall, which is across the (busy) street from the house? Or does she mean the retaining wall on the alley, which is on the other side of the alley from the house? From what I remember of that call, the description she gives sounds like she's talking about the campus wall across the street. This house is located on Buchanan Blvd, a pretty busy street, it is not a "side street". The campus wall is stone, about waist high, and encloses the east campus; but there is a large park-like area (with enormous magnolias!)with a running/walking track just inside the wall which is used by students, faculty, and residents of the neighborhoods. That 911 call was included in earlier reports as if it had a bearing on this case, but if the guy yelling the n word was leaning against the campus wall, he may not have had anything to do with any of the lacrosse players, he could have been anyone. Without more information, I don't see how this could be definitively connected to this case.

Also, that house is very small; if there were 40-46 guys in that house at one time there is no way every person in that house could have avioded knowing a rape was occurring/had occurred. They would have been packed in there like sardines in a can. 40-46 people keeping a secret? No, I find that part hard to believe. As Ben Franklin said, "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

That's just a couple of the questions I have about this; it's not all of them. As I said, I'm still keeping my mind open, awaiting more information. But with my questions, and the other things that have come out, I am beginning to feel more skepticism.

Don't get me wrong - if any of these guys are guilty of this crime, they need to be tried, convicted, and jailed. Whatever happened, it needs to be addressed. I see some posts here that want to call it a cover-up and other such nonsense; that lacks evidence and is a bit premature; it is unfair to Duke, to the ER staff at the hospital, and to the Durham police. A lot of the residents of Durham and the area work at the school and the hospital; a lot of those are African-Americans, and they work in a wide range of occupations at Duke University, at the hospital, and as City of Durham police officers.


BUT JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE RICH, ARROGANT PRICKS DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE RAPISTS; WE DON'T JAIL PEOPLE FOR BEING ASSHOLES. (I would, however, make an exception for any and all members of the current administration!)

I know I'll probably get flamed for this...

[LisaL]

189. Presumably, that first 911 call came from a second stripper, who

then drove the alleged victim to the parking lot of Kroger's. So, the 911 caller, if it was a second stripper, was not being honest when she said she was walking or driving by with her black girlfriend. She came from inside the house. Whoever that was, the 911 caller than drove the alleged victim to Kroger's parking lot. The alleged victim would not get out of the car, so the 911 caller asked the Kroger's guard to call 911 for the police to pick the alleged victim up. She told the Kroger's guard that she picked up the alleged victim in front of the lacrosse house, but that she did not know here before. I believe this was the same woman-who was the second stripper but did not want to admit she was a stripper.

[frustrated_lefty]

96. Personally, I am sick

of the blatant hunger displayed on this forum for a guilty verdict. Otherwise rational people are scoffing at DNA evidence (or the lack thereof). Maybe the guys are guilty. Maybe not.

Too many women are anxious to find these men guilty. Sorry you had such crappy experiences with guys, but this makes me less trustful of women in general.

[aikoaiko]

100. This case will show every everything good and bad about ...

... sex, violence, race relations, and sexual and racial discrimination.

Although these are incomparable types of victimization, I feel badly for the woman if she was raped and I feel badly for the accused men if it didn't.

We need cases like this to be inthe spotlight, I think, to reveal things about ourselves.

[daringthedevil]

102. I agree with you.

[Finder]

104. I am sick of the misinformation by the media...

for example, before the results came back, many said it was very difficult to isolate individual DNA from a sample containing up to 4 different individuals.(3 perp's and the victim's)This makes sense and is a common problem with gang rape cases.

Also, there was an eyewitness to at least a verbal assault with racial tones. There are also broken fingernails which were found in the bathroom. (I believe there was no DNA found under them which is what is being reported) The rape kit dna test is not completed(or released) at this time.

[TheWraith]

173. That's not exactly accurate.

1. They would have to have run the SAE kit to have something to compare the players DNA to, so they have processed the SAE kit.

2. Yes, it's difficult to isolate individual DNA, but that doesn't mean that the lab would return a clean slate negative. It just means that it would take more time to isolate the samples and run them.

3. The witness to the verbal confrontation is, currently, just a media report. We don't know if it's any more accurate than the reports that the players weren't cooperating with police, or the story that the first police officer to talk to the dancer reported her as being dead drunk but not in need of medical attention.

[Finder]

182. The witness was interviewed on TV...

He lives next door.

The DNA testing is not complete(from the kit). The only lab tests completed were the ones on the nails in which it appears no DNA was found.

[LostinVA]

184. Only the nails???

[ugarte]

110. Obviously you're not the only one...nt

[Chomp]

156. Sub Judice anyone?

Whatever happend to Sub Judice in the American Justice system?

This public bunfighting is absolute insanity.