Bushco turned a reflexive Clinton hater - into a "Clinton was the best

[salin]

president ever" believer.

When I met this person, any mention of Bill or Hillary Clinton was met with a reflexive frown, grown and cringe. A midwesterner, social conservative, who had fully accepted all of the rightwing spin of the last twenty or more years.

We barely ever talk politics - this person knows where I stand on things and that was that... and this person knew that to any rw talking point I would lightly debunk (never got combative).

Pulls me aside - this wasn't the quiet "I am mad at bush"... more significant in my mind. This person re describes for me why such an emotional and negative reaction was held per Clinton - it was the admitted "past infidelity" during the 1992 election, it was Hillary's "stand by your man" (words of this person) thing that this person found offensive. It was buying the 12 Reagan/Bush years of propaganda about Dems being big spenders compared to repubs (studying old budget proposals through the Reagan years - govt records, debunks this as the proposed Reagan budget ALWAYS had a biggest deficit number (significantly so) than did the budget of the Dem controlled congress. Seriously, this person had a visceral/emotional reaction whenever hearing reference to either of the Clintons.

Well while we have avoided talking politics, this person has been listening to current Clinton (Bill) speeches. Said this person... I find that I agree with what he says - I realize that what he stands for is what I believe... I now think he was the best president we have had. Described was flipping through tv channels and if CLinton was on (probably CSpan) giving a speech - the channel changing would stop. Biggest was this persons need to tell me, not just that the perspective had changed -but that to change this person (self-reportedly) had to overcome the bias that had been fueled for years.

According to this person - the GOP had narrowed so much under bush - to just guns, gays, and abortion - and while some of these things resonate with this person - it was stated that this person believed that there were many other important issues and that this narrowing (the perspective of this person of the GOP) was a very, very bad thing.

This is a very good person, but one who has tended to view politics in a very un-complex, one-dimensional way - a had bought into the GOP noise machine of the past 20 years, but never in a militant, combative way. This is in very red state - and in a part of a blue/purple community but from the redder part of that community. And it is interesting that this person has not only turned against bush and the GOP - but has been able to work through the spin and years of internal bias against Clinton - to completely realign views. For this person to state affirmatively that in this person's opinion "Clinton was one of our best presidents ever" was huge, and really took me aback.

While we have avoided most political discussions for the past four years, news stories periodically come up ... noticed some level of skepticism mixed with a desire to believe in good intents during the invasion of Iraq ... but the first big shift I noticed was during the Schaivo events. While this person attends an evangelical social-conservative church, the attempts at govt intrusion was deeply disturbing... as was the direction of where the GOP initially seemed to want to go (legislatively). I think the chipping away at long-held beliefs was a steady process from that time.

It was a very interesting conversation.

[Notoverit]

1. Ain't perspective grand?

[salin]

6. perspective is hard... when one remains acceptign one-liners

somewhere along the line - not only were one liners (eg Rush putdowns) rejected - but an openness to thinking came on... and now - most interstingly - a realignment - when this person stated the realization that the words of Clinton reflect this person's views on the world more than anyone else... huge leap forward towards viewing/thinking in terms of complex prolbems (which many rw consumers don't think about) needing complex answers.

[LostinVA]

2. That's like my Dad... the same thing

[salin]

7. such a big thing after years of buying into simple/knee jerk

thinking - to overcome that - to THINKING about it. Very big, eh?

[LostinVA]

18. I know! He still won't admit everything about *.... but the Clinton

thing shocked me... he always hated Clinton. He said to my Mom last Fall, "I wish Clinton could be reelected....." OMG.

[salin]

21. bingo

that points out that there is more critical thinking going on about POLICIES and beyond personalities and affiliations - THINKING about issues/policies is important - and then after doing so, finding a former hater into realligned with the thinking of Clintion (on issues/policies) - so very big. Why? This is deeper than developing a new reflexive/non-thinking reaction to yet another politician - but an openness to consider different opinions within politics.

btw, :hi:

[LostinVA]

27. And, my Dad, the conservative anti-pinko gay, said this last night

when I was talking to him on the phone. "That new guy in Italy sounds like he has some good ideas." Me: silence. Then,m I was like, "You know the dude is kinda a Leftie, right?" Dad: "Yeah."

OMG... could have knocked me over with a feather... almost literally.

[janx]

3. That is a critical thinker and a person with an open mind.

There are more around than our divided culture has led us to believe. More will surface.

[salin]

11. Five years ago, critical thinking was not the strong point (at least

in terms of politics), something has happened in the intervening years that have encouraged this person to apply their critical thinking skills (apparent in other areas) to this person's political thinking. Really transformational. I do think more will and have surfaced. I think that being able so shake off black/white binary thinking on issues/politics is a HUGE step towards being able to consider different types of political solutions to problems.

You hit the nail on the head - critical thinking - and its emergence among more. Sort of like a chunk of the population is shaking the sleep out of their eyes and starting to realize it is worth the time/energy to start questioning WHY things are as they are... leaving a great openness to the next natural question which is - so what shoud I/We do to begin changing how things are...

[janx]

20. The media have done a lot of damage in the last 20 years.

My colleagues and I who teach college writing are teaching students to learn the art of civil and logical argument, in which there are always more than two "sides" to any question and in which people of any perspective can always learn, even as they may initially disagree.

The students are very ready and receptive to the idea, though, and they well recognize how our popular culture has degraded in that respect. It's very encouraging.

[salin]

22. IMO, that is what is new.. and what wowed me in the conversation

that I had.

Not only an openness to reconsider preconcieved beliefs (which in and of itself, can be difficult), but an opennes to then consider other perspectives to the point that one CAN revise beliefs/stands etc. That has been woefully absent for far too long. Glad to hear that there is an openness to this type of critical thinking among college students.

[janx]

24. At a branch campus of a state university where I teach,

many of the students are rural, and a good number are religious.

But they are not stupid, and they're sick of the false dilemma sort of world view that the media have dished out for so many years.

I teach at another school that has a different kind of population (heavily tech), and they are downright starved for it. Those students want it very badly.

The fear factor and the us versus them mentality is not working anymore, thank God. People are tired of being insulted and divided.

[salin]

26. big point that you make...

the fear factor, the us vs. them - have lost their valence - in their absense, perhaps, one has to beginning questioning.

[MadMaddie]

4. I think this is happening more and more...

they are waking up from their slumber...

But they are also finding their independence again...free thinkers....one only has to listen to a speech by the Chimp and then listen to Clinton to realize the intelligence difference....

And the fact that the GOP wants to interfere in every Americans life...is really disturbing to many of those who are waking up....

I hope that when November comes that they vote their dissatisfaction and help us get rid of the goons....

[salin]

12. Here is to hoping

:toast: (per November).

[Indykatie]

5. Thanks for Posting

I do enjoy these conversion stories. I always thought that some Republican folks would come to miss the Clinton years. I just never thought it would take Bush so long to have that effect on them.

[salin]

14. Reviewing and rejecting YEARS of propoganda is hard...btw,

this is a local story to you (person in question is a resident of Indy) :D

[immoderate]

8. America is based on liberal ideas.

These people generally have to turn themselves inside out to buy the rw line. It's nice when they are able to shed their delusions. good for your friend, and you, whose patience undoubtedly contributed to his/her awakening.

--IMM

[against all enemies]

9. Which begs the question " Why is America so UnAmerican?"

[salin]

15. Nail hit on the head....

but I would add that it happened so gradually that many folks accepted the twisting inside/out per logic - it was easier to do so (expend so little energy) - I think it is very hard to shed those delusions, psychologically - for in the process how one views the world has to go upside down for a little while.

No idea whether or not I contributed, but the desire to detail not just the shift - but why this person thought the shift was significant (per getting over a reflexive dislike of CLinton - that had been held for more than a decade) suggests that perhaps I did have a sliver of a part of the shift :D

[unblock]

10. we need to show shrub and clinton speeches side by side

shrub has so dumbed down debate that it's a victory just to get through a speech without leaving any absolute proof of his insanity.

you hear him speak, then you hear clinton speak, you can't help but think DAMN i miss having an actual president!

even if you disagreed with clinton, at least he was an actual PRESIDENT, not some STUPID, OVERMEDICATED, SOCIOPATHIC SHITHEAD that people STILL insist on pretending is a great leader :wtf:

[salin]

17. Can you think of many media clips where you have seen this done?

of course not - bush is too protected/shielded. You are, imo, very correct.

[AtomicKitten]

13. gotta admire a hardliner willing to admit the failing of this president

and, yes, comparatively Bush is an epic turd next to Clinton.

[salin]

19. far bigger, for this person, that admitting a failure of bush.

This person HATED Clinton (greatly due to buying propoganda) - had to work through that hatred - long standing hatred... and comes out not just not liking bush - but revising long held views of Clinton - from "disgusting" to "best president".. due to realizing the policis/politics were more important than personality - and that in reality, for this person, what couldn't be heard at the time through the stoked hatred, was that the belief and vision espoused by Clintnon actually reflected/resonated wiht this person's personal views. Sad that this person could never get over the stoked (rush and rw media spin) while Clinton was Presdient - as in that this person (and many others) couldn't ever hear the messages/words of Clinton when they were spoken due to reflexive anger/hatred. But that now, bushco and the GOP has forced this person to fully work through their cognitive dissonance and completely reevaluate everying... and emerge willing to expend the energy to think critically about political issues... that seems significant to me.

[cynatnite]

16. I badmouthed Clinton when he first ran

:blush:

Called him all the rw names, too. :blush:

Then came the contract with America. I hated that so much, I finally started realizing how good of a president Clinton was.

I'm embarrassed by my behavior back then, but I'm more proud that I became a better person.

[salin]

23. It seems that to even some who applauded the Contract with America

that they are beginning to follow your path :D

[Alamom]

25. Thank you for posting. We're hearing this more and more.....n/t