I know I'm going to catch hell for this from you all...

[Squatch]

but after I heard that a Navy Lieutenant cried on the stand today at the Moussaoui trial, I was embarassed and pissed off.

She's an American military officer and she should know not to cry in front of the enemy like that. Now, the testimony of this Lt and the resultant derision by Moussaoui is all over the news.

"Hey, look...Al Qaeda makes the American military cry."

Go ahead...flame away.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Nobody gives a damn about what that evil wack job Moussaoui thinks.

And Al Qaeda hates us already, so who cares what they think, either?

And, most importantly, what's so wrong about a military officer behaving like a human being?

[Squatch]

4. An officer can cry all he/she wants...

...just not in the face of the enemy. It's not becoming of an officer.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. A bit harsh to criticize someone who's been through what that officer

went through unless you're 100% certain you wouldn't have broken down under the same circumstances. Military officers can and do cry. Fuck the macho crap. They are human beings and they get to express their emotions, even in front of a pathetic, lame-ass nutjob "enemy" like Moussaoui. You are suggesting that this officer's expression of genuine emotion is somehow shameful, and it's not.

Or is it just that she's a weak female? :sarcasm:

[Squatch]

22. The time to express yourself emotionally

is with your friends and family, not in front of the enemy.

Look, I wear the uniform daily. I like to think the leaders of this military I'm a part of don't cry in front of the enemy.

[cynatnite]

30. Crying is not a weakness

You see it as a weakness when it's only an emotion. Most people understand that.

It doesn't make a person less capable of putting on a uniform or picking up a gun when necessary.

Oh, before you speak more...I'm a woman and a vet. And I have had to pick up a gun.

[Squatch]

35. When shown in front of the enemy, it *is* perceived as weakness.

I serve with some women right now who I wouldn't hesitate to go to combat with. There are many men for whom I cannot say the same.

[cynatnite]

40. Perception is one thing...doing is another

They already think we're weak. One woman crying won't change that. And this woman would do her duty as she swore she would no matter what.

Most soldiers are like that...men and women both.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. "Perceived as weakness"?? That's your opinion.

[Squatch]

63. Hey, thanks for pointing out the obvious!

I have an opinion! Well, gollee-gee whiz...

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Squatch]

78. LOL. Funny.

"first tour"

[cynatnite]

26. Are you an officer? Are you military?

Have you suffered what she's suffered?

It's pretty goddamn easy for you to sit in your comfortable chair and pass judgment, isn't it?

Did you know pictures of troops serving in Iraq crying over the loss of their buddies have been plastered all over the Internet, newspapers and in TV. Are you going to sit there and fucking say that helps the terrorists????

Come on, answer that! I fucking dare you! :grr:

on edit: I read the post where you said you put on a uniform daily. It's not an excuse to bash someone for expressing their pain.

[Squatch]

31. Like I've said a couple times in this thread:

I wear the uniform on a daily basis.

My service record is not in question here. But, I have lost 2 very close friends in Iraq. I will cry with their families, but I sure as hell won't give the people who are intent on doing me harm the satisfaction of seeing me cry. Ever.

[cynatnite]

37. That's your choice...

you don't want to cry...don't. But it in no way diminishes a soldier's duty.

They may think she's weak, but give her a damn gun and you'll find a woman just as capable of fighting as a man.

This crap you're spewing is sexist.

[Squatch]

43. How so is this sexist?

The person on that stand was an officer. Officers should not show emotion in front of the enemy. She's an officer, first and foremost. I would be just as pissed if it were a man.

There are many women with whom I currently serve that I would not hesitate to go to war with. There are many men for whom I cannot say the same.

[cynatnite]

49. I don't buy any of what you're saying

you lost this argument by saying her crying in front of the enemy helps the terrorists. Your posts sounds a hell of lot like some of the male assholes I had to put up with when I was in.

[Squatch]

53. It's not an argument.

It's my own, personal feeling. I'm just expressing myself in a community of friends. Am I not allowed to do that?

[cynatnite]

57. Sure, but you're wrong. n/t

[guidod]

99. There shouldn't be any argument

because you're absolutely RIGHT Squatch.

[bahrbearian]

84. I buy what your saying.

[bdamomma]

25. what I read

about Moussaoui he showed no remorse, and had no regrets about 9/11, he and bush should get together.

[BlueJazz]

2. Well...She IS a Woman and maybe she was on her Period.

In other news:
A former DU member (who went by the name "BlueJazz")
was bludgeoned in his sleep last night by an angry pack of Women....

[bahrbearian]

5. "Good thing we didn't give them guns."

[BlueJazz]

13. was bludgeoned in his sleep last night by an angry pack of Women..

..carrying Guns.

..Actually, I've seen grown Men cry over nothing and have never thought anything about it.

[bahrbearian]

19. Every been pistol whiped in a pillow party?

s/p error

[BlueJazz]

36. No..but I have a feeling it wouldn't be very bright to have a

..pillow party with you.

:loveya:

[0007]

71. Some folks indeed get off with that kind of violence, LOL!!

[bahrbearian]

74. I joke .I joke

[KyndCulture]

14. Nice sexist post

[Iris]

34. I think it was a joke. n/t

[bahrbearian]

77. I joke .I joke

[cynatnite]

45. It was a joke. Did you read all of it? n/t

[bahrbearian]

81. I'm Joking.

[bahrbearian]

3. "Giving Aid and Comfort to the Enemy"?

[BuyingThyme]

6. Allergies.

[whistle]

7. She may be crying for reasons other than the obvious...

<snip>
Rumsfeld Rebuked By Retired Generals
Ex-Iraq Commander Calls for Resignation

By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 13, 2006; Page A01

The retired commander of key forces in Iraq called yesterday for Donald H. Rumsfeld to step down, joining several other former top military commanders who have harshly criticized the defense secretary's authoritarian style for making the military's job more difficult.

"I think we need a fresh start" at the top of the Pentagon, retired Army Maj. Gen. John Batiste, who commanded the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq in 2004-2005, said in an interview. "We need leadership up there that respects the military as they expect the military to respect them. And that leadership needs to understand teamwork."

Batiste noted that many of his peers feel the same way. "It speaks volumes that guys like me are speaking out from retirement about the leadership climate in the Department of Defense," he said earlier yesterday on CNN.
<more>

<link> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/12/AR2006041201114.html?referrer=emailarticle

[seabeyond]

8. grab your balls and spit. puff that chest..... oh oh oh

who the f* cares.

[Squatch]

10. I wear the uniform daily and I care how officers represent

themselves and the military.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. How old are you?

[Garbo 2004]

90. I think lying to the American public is worse than crying on the stand if

we're gonna talk about some officers' behavior.

[babylonsister]

9. Here's some grief:

it's a sham trial to divert attention from:
- this admin that is culpable because they never acknowledged the information they had prior to 9/11.
-the FAA got 60? e-mails from a federal agent who was trying to relate his fear that Moussaoui was involved in something.
Anyone who saw that tape cried (I refuse to see it, but heard about it).
How about considering the real fuck-ups involved instead of this Navy person expressing emotion?

Finally, this guy was in jail on 9/11. He's an arrogant asshole, granted, but how is he complicit?
Is he really?

[Blue_In_AK]

11. The US will be making a huge mistake

if they give Moussaoui the martyrdom he's so obviously after. Better to let him disappear into a prison somewhere for the rest of his life where he'll be forgotten. It should be obvious to anyone that he wants to be executed.

[redwitch]

15. I agree.

But he wouldn't last long in prison anyway.

[hatrack]

16. I agree - give him 3,000 consecutive life sentences and forget his name

Best thing for the twit.

[Squatch]

17. Agreed.

[pretzel4gore]

28. doesn't it matter that he's insane?

if a kitten poo'ed on a carpet, and someone beat the kitten for it, i would beat the bastard til he cried for mercy....i dunno about this moussaoui guy, but i recall reading he was obviously insane at time of the wtc disaster, and he's glommed onto the 911 disaster for some reason only his overheated brain can understand.....punishing the insane is like punishing an innocent, no different then beating up some hapless animal

[roody]

62. They will be sure to kill him

because he knows too much.

[redwitch]

12. Sorry but that's just dumb.

n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. There's no crying in baseball! errr... the Navy! n/t

[cynatnite]

21. Are you saying her crying on the stand helps the terrorists?????

I got two words for you! I'd say them, but I like the title of this post better. It shows what sort of person you are.

[Squatch]

23. What sort of person is that?

Please, do tell.

I know my opinion was not going to be popular, but that's just the way I feel.

[cynatnite]

27. You say she should cry in front of the enemy. Why?

Why can't she cry?

Does that make her less capable of picking up a gun and killing someone?

[Squatch]

32. She shouldn't cry in front of the enemy.

[cynatnite]

42. Bullshit. She cried on a witness stand in the US

Even if she cried in front of Osama himself, she'd probably still pick up a gun and kill the bastard. I think we can all agree on that.

[Squatch]

47. Which has since been carried in all the major news outlets.

[cynatnite]

54. And so have images of male soldiers crying over the loss of buddies

It's been on the internet, in print and on TV. Don't you think the terrorists have internet access?

It's okay when the guys (officers and enlisted alike) actually in Iraq cry over the loss of their buddies, but not for a woman on a witness stand in the US.

Hypocrisy to the max. :eyes:

[Squatch]

60. She was representing herself, as an officer, in the *presence*

of a confessed member of Al Qaeda.

How is her crying in front of the enemy the same as men or women expressing emotion about their losses to each other and their families?

[cynatnite]

64. Soldiers in Iraq have cried out on patrol right after their friend died

There are pictures all over the place. Haven't you seen them????

They did it in Irag, directly after an egagement. Pictures like these have been shown all ove rthe world. How can you ignore that, but point to a woman sitting on a witness stand in the US?

It boggles the mind.

[Marie26]

38. Why does she hate America? nt

[SPKrazy]

24. Moussaoui Is About To Be A Psychotic Sentenced To Death

He was too crazy for even al Queda!

The man is obviously mentally deranged, and too incompetent to be a danger locked up away from people.

[Horse with no Name]

29. I'll get flamed for this but

that's really stupid.
By the way, perhaps if a few more tears were shed by HUMANS in the military, the military wouldn't be saddled with the shame of Abu Ghraib.
Personally, I am glad for a change that someone in an accountable position gives a shit and doesn't mind showing it.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

44. The OP's basic premise is that crying is shameful

and if you are a military officer you should never let "the enemy" see you express emotion because that's a sign of weakness. And I just can't buy that. Also -- maybe one could argue that officers shouldn't be sobbing their eyes out on the battlefield, but this was a criminal trial in which witnesses were testifying about the impact of 9/11, to try to persuade a jury to execute "the enemy." So if this officer had just sat there stoically, bit her tongue and said, "Yeah, they killed some guys I knew," without letting any emotion show, what would have been the point of her testimony?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. Women don't cry on purpose.

I'm not going to sit here and try to defend someone from the military. I say that women in the military should be separate from males, and they should perhaps be the type that don't cry easily. However, as far as whether or not she cried at will, I doubt it. I've had the misfortune of being at work when shit broke loose on a project, and the sheer anger and stress caused my BODY to cry, try as I may to force it to stop. My body would not and did not stop. It caused me to cry. Men, I suspect, are different. There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, women tend to cry because their body is different, and it's not some pushbutton thingie. I think men think that women just bring on tears automatically to manipulate. That's bs.

[Squatch]

39. And, that's NOT what I'm insinuating

man or woman, emotion should not be shown in front of the enemy.

[fooj]

46. Thank you for your service.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. Then women can't be in the military, except for a few who are exceptions

Most women, compared to most men, are unable to hold back tears, because tears are just not something that are used for show. When I wept at work, my mind was racing and I was praying my body wouldn't fly into that teary crap. Why? Easy. Because I know that men despise tears, see it as a sign of weakness (which it is not, it's a sign of emotion, which is not an evil thing), and because men also equate it with manipulation (tho I have no F clue where they started thinking that).

I think women need to try to control their tears a bit, but men need to try and stop being frikkin' blocks of cement. The way men are raised worldwide, controlling their tears, is just wrong.

[cynatnite]

56. 'women need to try to control their tears a bit'

If that isn't sexist, I don't know what is.

When women cry it's considered weak. :eyes: Geez.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Hey I agree. I think men and women ALL need to cry.

I don't care if they're in the military or the circus. Crying is not a terminal disease. Men need to stop being raised like emotionless rocks. Tears are good.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

52. Why?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. I've seen grown serviceMEN cry for less....

...and were just as justified for showing their emotions as the Navy Lieutenant.

Just curious, but were you ever in the U. S. military?

[Squatch]

48. Yes. Currently active duty.

Army.

[madeline_con]

51. Yep, it's aiding and abetting, damn it!

:sarcasm:


"... he is convinced President Bush will free him ..." Proof he's looney tunes.

[Swamp Rat]

55. Crying openly can also be a sign of strength

:)

[Squatch]

65. Agreed 100%

[Swamp Rat]

70. Ahh!

I just downed a Liberty Ale! :beer: :toast:

[Squatch]

73. Brings tears to my eyes.

LOL

I'm enjoying Sierra Nevada's Summerfest right now. Have you had it?

[Swamp Rat]

83. Yep

and if you can get it, I recommend Abita's Fleur-de-lis Restoration Ale. :9

http://www.abita.com/party/restoration_ale.html

[Squatch]

86. I've seen it on the shelf, but haven't tried it yet.

But now that you've recommended it, I think I shall.

Dogfish Apricot IPA (Aprihop) was going for $9 a fourpack

It's still just barley, water, hops, and yeast, right?

[EFerrari]

59. What's shameful is that our so called "justice" system

is sentencing someone who is clearly schizophrenic and whose testimony was clearly coerced.

THAT'S SHAMEFUL.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. I agree, but then we live where the mentally retarded are executed. nt

[Redstone]

67. And you'll deserve the flaming. That was a REALLY stupid statement.

Redstone

[Twist_U_Up]

69. not her fault

http://www.freepressinternational.com/mc.html

VIDEO: MIND CONTROL
HAARP, MASS MIND CONTROL, TRAMA-BASED MIND CONTROL AND THE CIA MIND CONTROL PROGRAM MK-ULTRA

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

72. Expressing emotion isn't a sign of weakness; it's a sign of humanity.

And military people have as much need of humanity as anyone else.

[SofaKingLiberal]

76. Maybe if she was a sociopath,

like the pigs in this administration,that wouldn't have happened.

:shrug:

[Neil Lisst]

79. The whole thing is a passion play made for TV.

Grab a stick and take a whack at the designated al Qaeda whipping boy/pinata.

He's probably guilty of conspiracy. All this testimony is supposed to convince the jury to give him the death penalty, a jury that already had removed from the panel anyone who opposes the death penalty. How's that for a jury of your peers? Only people who won't have a problem pulling the trigger on the death penalty can get on the jury. THAT is what our justice system is really like - a chronically stacked deck in favor of the government unless the defendant is rich or famous.

[bluestateguy]

80. I don't see the big deal

I've been persistently amazed at how Moussaoui seems to publicly revel in the murder and mayham that took place on 9/11. He is one vile excuse for a human being.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Squatch]

87. So, what you're telling me is that

if I believed her behavior was becoming of an officer, I would have gotten more nominations?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. I Think It's Pretty Damn Clear What I'm Telling You.

Trivialize it all you wish, but the powerful point made is still valid nonetheless.

[Squatch]

89. Well, thanks!

Finally, somebody agrees with me.

[cynatnite]

91. What about this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=927911&mesg_id=928212

[Squatch]

92. What about this:

Major international news outlets report:

“I think it was disgusting for a military person” to cry, Moussaoui said of the testimony of Navy Lt. Nancy McKeown. “She is military, she should expect people at war with her to want to kill her.”

Asked if he was happy to hear her sobbing, he said, “Make my day.”

[cynatnite]

93. Thank you...you can't justify your position at all

You can't say a soldier in Iraq who cries over losing a buddy is helping the enemy by showing a 'perceived' weakness, but you can say it in regards to a female officer sitting in a courtroom in the US.

[Squatch]

95. I can perfectly "justify" my position

An officer, in uniform, has no business crying in the physical presence of the enemy.

[cynatnite]

97. Now, you're moving goal posts

no surprise there.

[Squatch]

98. I think my position has been pretty clear from the beginning.

It's just you who is having a hard time trying to understand it.

[cynatnite]

100. No, it's not okay for her to cry in the US on a witness stand...

but it's okay for men on the frontline and in battle to cry where their pictures are taken and beamed around the world. That's what's coming out through how you defend yourself. It's painfully obvious.

You either can't see your hypocrisy or refuse to see it.

[guidod]

101. cynthia, officers don't cry on

the witness stand, in front of the enemy or in front of troops beneath them. Get a clue, Squatch knows what he's talking about.

[Marie26]

96. Who cares what Moussaoui thinks?

Do you really care about a terrorist's opinion?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

94. Yes, As You Said, Somebody Agrees With You. His Name Is Moussaoui n/t

[apollo56]

85. Shame on you for even bring this up!

[Fenris]

102. Locking.

Do not post "flame bait" discussion topics. Please use good judgment when starting threads; inflammatory rhetoric does not normally lead to productive discussion.

Fenris
GD Moderator