Brave talk from the generals now, but.....

[Joe Fields]

We are hearing from retired generals lately about Rumsfeld's folly. Brave talk now, but where was their courage to speak truth to power when it counted most? When they were still commissioned, why didn't they speak up? To me it shows a lack of character and a tinge of cowardice to go along with a battle plan, or a lack of, knowing that it is doomed to failure and that all it will do is send young Americans to their death, while fomenting an insurgency that was destined to spiral out of control.

Not one of these (fine) officers were willing to stand up and tell the emperor that he was naked when it really counted.

[RB TexLa]

1. So what did they tell them?

I wasn't there so I don't know.

[dogday]

Yes one was at the beginning and he was

retired quite suddenly. The others gave advice, but needless to say that Rumsfield never took it.. But it is funny you think they should of all lost their jobs..

Shame on you for talking like that about our troops, it is not their fault Rumsfield and company would not even listen to them... Put the blame where it belongs.. On this administration!!!!

[Joe Fields]

4. Shame on me?

If they are so worried about their precious careers that they are willing to go along, in order to get along, then they deserve my scorn. They have been complicit in this entire mess. Shame on you, buddy.

[dogday]

8. So obviously you don't support the troops?

if you did, you would understand chain of command.. I bet you believe that it was just a few bad apples that caused the torture as well... Yes shame on you, it is that kind of thinking that could prolong this war and keep DR as SOD... Again Shame on you....

I say this as a Mom of a soldier in Iraq.... I want this war to end....

[Joe Fields]

13. I have so much respect for the troops, I doubt that you can

comprehend. I have so much respect for the men and women who wear the uniform that I believe they are our country's most prized asset, to be used in the most responsible of manner.

Let me turn this around. Do you think it is okay for our troops to be needlessly placed in harm's way by a bunch of idiots who haven't a clue as to what they are doing? Don't you think our soldiers are more valuable than that? Don't you think they deserve better than that?

Short answer, I respect our troops, but DO NOT SUPPORT THE MISSION, period.

[dogday]

15. Who is the ultimate authority as to how this war

is carried out? Donald Rumsfield... Why can't you accept that he would not take any advice from the Generals and one of those Generals was on the ground with the troops and the fighting..


THIS IS DONALD RUMSFIELD AND THIS ADMINISTRATION'S FAULT AND IF YOU RESPECT THE TROOPS, YOU WILL WORK FOR CHANGE.....

[Joe Fields]

24. You just made my point.

You said that if I respect the troops, then I would work for change.

If the Generals respected the troops, instead of playing the usual game of CYA, then maybe they could have affected a little change in poliucy. Maybe not. But only one that I know of did. It cost him, but at least he can look in the mirror every morning without shame.

It's one thing to advise. It is an entirely different matter to stand up for what you know to be folly.

[dogday]

26. The Generals are soldiers and troops too!!!!

General Eric Shinseki stood up and got booted, but I don't see you praising him one bit... They did tell Rumsfield.. For some reason you think Donald Rumsfield can do no wrong...

[Joe Fields]

29. Where did you get that crazy notion?

I said no such thing, and I don't know from where you pulled that erroneous assumption.

Rumsfeld is a war criminal, and the generals that went along with him are complicit in this folly.

[dogday]

31. You said nothing about Rumsfield but instead

choose to blame retired soldiers.. General Eric Shinseki who said at the beginning we needed at least 200,000 soldiers and guess what, they would not listen to him and he was relieved of duty--oh big surprise....

You want to do something constructive then put the blame where it really belongs on Rumsfield, Bush Cheney and all the blood thirsty right wingers who plotted this war from it's inception....

[malaise]

48. Not only that but

Rummy did not even attend the retiring ceremony for Shinseki. While the generals are late, the good news is that the army does not support these goons.

[Redstone]

35. He didn't say that.

Redstone

[dogday]

37. Did not say what

[Redstone]

39. That he thought Rumsfeld could do no wrong.

Redstone

[dogday]

41. I never said he said it, I said

he thinks it... Although he never said that which it correct, he stomps on these soldiers, rather then putting the blame where it belongs... He doesn't even consider that these soldiers could of given their suggestions to Rumsfield, only that they are the cowards for not standing up to Rumsfield, like that would matter, because Rumsfield does want he wants... By saying what he does, he does not apply the blame where it truly belongs, at Rumsfield's feet....

[Redstone]

53. Sorry, I'm invoking Redstone's Rule #3:

"Never argue with someone who has the same answer for every question."

See you later.

[dogday]

54. Take Care Redstone

My message will always be same..

It is this administration who is to blame for this war and the mess they have gotten us in..

:hi:

[cali]

30. You seem unable to grasp some very basic

stuff. When you're wholly absorbed within a culture, and focused or responsible for one piece of planning, it's very difficult to have a dispassionate view of the entire culture. In fact, it's extraordinarily rare for a person to be able to do that. History proves this over and over again. It doesn't mean these folks were cowards. BTW, you absolutely would NOT know about who spoke out up the chain of command.

[Joe Fields]

36. What you "assume" I know, or don't know could fill a stadium.

You have no earthly idea what I know, so please save your insults and scorn for people who deserve them.

You can make excuses for these people all you want, but what I DO know, is that while these people were covering their asses, in order to preserve their careers young men and women have been dying needlessly. You can twist my words any way to suit you, but what I am saying is that almost no one has had the courage to speak up and take a stand when it counted, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. And I know about general Shinzeki. That is at least one honorable leader, that I know of.

[dogday]

38. I have insulted nobody, on the other hand

you are insulting Soldiers and Veterans... I take that seriously....

[cali]

40. You can claim

that you know that these men were just covering their asses from now until doomsday. It's still mere conjecture, and not a fact. BTW, at least try and spell the name of the one general you deem honorable correctly. Shinseki.

[Joe Fields]

42. Here is a partial transcript, Cali....

from one of the generals you are so vigorously defending.

A partial transcript from a GMA interview between Diane Sawyer and retired general Batiste.


Transcript: Retired general says criticism of Rumsfeld not coordinated; 'This is about soldiers'

RAW STORY
Published: Friday April 14, 2006

The following transcript, from Good Morning America Friday, was acquired by RAW STORY.

MS. SAWYER: You have done an extraordinary thing, calling on Secretary Rumsfeld to step down. Why?

GEN. BATISTE: Diane, there's really two reasons. One is, leaders need to be held accountable. By that I mean, we went to war with a flawed plan. We certainly had the troops necessary to win the fight to take down Saddam Hussein, but we in no way considered the hard work to win the peace. There was 10 years of good, deliberate war planning by U.S. Central Command that was essentially ignored.
.................
MS. SAWYER: Is this a coordinated effort by all of the generals? Are there more to come?

GEN. BATISTE: Actually, Diane, it's not. I have not talked to any of the other five generals, other than last night on a show with Dave Grange and another. We have nothing to gain by this, absolutely nothing to gain by this. There's no political agenda at all. We've been loyal subordinates.

MS. SAWYER: But there are people --

GEN. BATISTE: This is all about --

MS. SAWYER: Excuse me --

GEN. BATISTE: This is all about soldiers.

MS. SAWYER: There are --

GEN. BATISTE: Service men and women and their families.

more at:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Transcript_Retired_ge..


Did you read the part where he said to Ms. Sawyer, "We've been loyal subordinates."?

As for my spelling, I totally understand if you want to pick on a typo to deflect my argument. After all, it is a common tactic of one who doesn't base their argument on fact.

[cali]

51. You're right, Joe

about the spelling correction. it was a cheap shot and I apologize for it. Ironically, you use cheap tactics when you call me on it, by asserting without any evidence to back it up, that I'm doing so because my argument isn't based on fact. It's easy to fall into these verbal games in on line discussions.

I'm sorry but your transcript doesn't bolster your argument. It was his job to be loyal while he was a subordinate, and picking that one phrase as evidence is just, well, cherry picking. General Batiste stepped down in November because he could no longer remain loyal to the Secretary or the Iraq war debacle. I think it's sad that you can't recognize that as an enormous step for someone who invested his life in the Military, and won that took sacrifice. Your view of this whole situation strikes me as very simplistic. People are human. They're flawed. They make mistakes. But to castigate them for not being perfectly heroic, as you envision heroism, is to miss what it is to be human.

You still haven't addressed the points I brought up in earlier posts.

[dogday]

17. They did not go along to get along

the make the suggestions to Rumsfied, he REFUSED to take them.. So it is all the Generals fault for not beating down Rumsfield and Co. when they would not even listen to the Generals???...

[dogday]

21. I have no Shame, I have been working

for the war's end since it's conception and since my Son is over there risking his life for all of us here, again I have no shame when it comes to this war and enlightening people as often as I can....

[Joe Fields]

27. I am sorry that your son is caught up in all of this, but it doesn't

excuse the general's in the roles that they have played in this mess.

[dogday]

28. Why won't you blame the head honcho of

all of this, Rumsfield... I find it really weird you lay no blame with him and his not listening to his commanders on the ground as they lied they were... I will accept your argument when you tell me why the top dog is not responsible for everything that has happened.....

I guess if they all physically jumped on Rumsfield and beat up on him, they might of gotten him to change his mind... This administration is the single blame for all the screw-ups in Iraq...

[Joe Fields]

32. Have I not called this "Rumsfeld's Folly" often enough for you?

I have written a mountain of scathing words for Donald Rumsfeld and Co., a subsidiary of Bushco. This particular thread is dealing with my disdain for the generals who are now speaking after they have retired. It is my opinion. You certainly don't share it. Let it lie.

[dogday]

34. I will not let it lie

I will continue to usurp your assumptions that you can even fault these soldiers who follow a chain of command rather than this administration.

[Joe Fields]

44. Usurp away. I'm done with your conversation.

[dogday]

46. I hope we can just agree to disagree

I have no hard feelings, I feel one way, you feel another.. Ok? :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

58. Let's re-focus on what really needs to happen?

We need Active Duty General Officers at the Pentagon to promptly RESIGN, then SPEAK OUT immediately regarding Rumsfeld's incompetence?

Both sides have a point. I forgot the 101st's two star General's name, but I can only have profound respect for the man who REFUSED to return and be granted a third star IF it meant working under Rumsfeld. That man did speak out and our horrid corporate media STILL shills for * stating, "But the Commander-In-Chief put out a statement of support."

The Chimperor has NEVER been denied. However, albeit they are not aware of it - RUMSFELD's ON THE ROPES!

NOW, if a continued number of Field Grade (Maj-Col) and General Officers RESIGN in protest and speak out, we can shed ourselves of the absolute worst Secretary of Defense this Country has ever had to suffer under?

RUMSFELD MUST GO! Not even Lord Pissypants could save him now IF ONLY more *GOOD* Officer (and senior enlisted) say with one clear voice, "SIR! NO SIR!"

Let's stop fighting with each other for our goal is the same? We need COMPETENT civilian leadership in the Pentagon. More than ANYTHING now we need to drop-kick the Neo-Con scum civilian leadership out of overseeing our military. We all know that all that they care for is EMPIRE, not the welfare of our beloved sons and daughters serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[mondo joe]

2. At least one of them was retired and lost a star BECAUSE he spoke up

back then.

I don't know about the others.

[ewagner]

3. That was my first impression also

but after thinking about it, if they had gone public at the time, they would have been court-martialed (like Gen Billy Mitchell) and probably disgraced into losing their credibility.

Also, after thinking about it, I understand the committment PROFESSIONAL military men have to their respective commands. They would never want to give up protecting the command in the face of combat because of their loyalty to their men.

It must have been a tough call.

[Joe Fields]

6. You are stating what most probably would have happened.

That's why they call it courage. If it were easy, with no percieved consequences then we would have been hearing from a great many, I would imagine.

The American people would forgive and even reward those who stood up when it counted. I have no respect for those that don't and are willing to allow our young men and women to continue to be blown to bits because of the cowardice of military leadership.

[cali]

5. You have a lot of nerve

and little knowledge. We don't know what these Generals said behind closed doors to Rumsfeld or anyone else above them. We don't know that they thought the plan was doomed to failure. Maybe they thought they could effect change for the better by staying. At least 1 was fired for speaking out. Batiste quit in November so he could speak out. I'm disgusted by the ease with which you condemn these guys who are speaking their consciousness.

[Joe Fields]

14. I do have a lot of nerve, and the right to speak my mind on the subject.

If they had objected while still serving, we would have heard about it.

Frankly, I'm disgusted by the apathy and the willingness of some people to defend these guys, when they had a chance to show some courage and speak out, but didn't, while our young men and women were being used and abused by them.

[SoCalDem]

50. and.... an officer at THAT level DOES have "power issues"

Generals do not like to give up what they perceive as the pinnacle of their successful career. Maybe they were not READY to retire, and thought that better judgment and public outcry would prevail.. Or maybe they "knew" that NOTHING THEY SAID would stop the impending train wreck. Maybe they actually thought that they might mitigate the damage by staying IN..

Maybe the Shinsecky demotion and firing was a shot across the bow, early on, to scare the rest into staying..and to follow orders and keep their mouths shut.

The initial phase of the "war" did not create all that many casualties, but as it wears on and on, maybe their consciences finally got the best of them..

I have not looked it up, but apparently they are republicans, so maybe more "active duty" guys might start speaking out..

[Bucky]

55. The last thing we want is a military that challenges civilian control

I've gotta disagree with the OP here. A system in which military brass feel unimpeded about challenged the authority and the political decisions of the civilian leadership is a system ready for a military coup. No sell here. Retired generals could and should speak up. In a republic, the military officers who are still in uniform should offer counsel in private, then shut up and follow every legal order issued. Anything less is a perversion of democracy.

[ShortnFiery]

60. Even if that civilian control uses PNAC goals as their guidebook? n/t

[blm]

7. More spoke up than you think - corporate media ignored their statements

just as they ignored the dozens of CIA analysts who said the WH was cooking the intel books on Iraq back in the fall of 2002 and throughout 2003.

Did you hear any news network discuss the analysis of those agents? Nope.

Just like they ignored all the generals and commanders who came out in support of Kerry and the many who switched their support from Bush to Kerry - media would not give their views airings while allowing Tommy Franks and other Bush loyalists as much airtime as the Bush campaign wanted.

[boobooday]

12. That's right

And those who spoke up in front of Congress were quickly mothballed (i.e. Shinseki).

[seabeyond]

9. they spoke up a couple years ago. in and out of military

they have been let go. they have been speaking up for a while. be informed. good stuff

[ms liberty]

10. If they had spoken out publicly, they would have lost their rank AND

been retired in disgrace; they could also have been prosecuted under military laws.

I have NO doubt that these men WERE expressing their opinions as much as possible, but it was behind closed doors, and UP the chain of command.

I'm okay with that, I do not blame them for not speaking out publicly.

Who I blame are the criminal war-mongering fascists in the * administration. They didn't listen to anyone who didn't agree with them. They still aren't.

This Iraq quagmire is Viet Nam redux; it also was a war micro-managed by the suits. I remember reading about a Time cover from the Nam era; it had either McNamara or Westmoreland on it, and it labeled Nam as McNamara's War, or Westmoreland's War, whichever one of them it was. I was a kid during Nam, so I don't actually remember the cover itself. I was reminded of it when I got my issue of Time right before the Iraq war, which had Rummy on the cover, and was titled "Rumsfeld's War." I showed my husband the cover that night and said to him then, "This is going to be another disaster, another Viet Nam." There was a syncronicity (sp??) that could not be ignored.

[atreides1]

22. Have you ever read the history....

of General Billy Mitchell, he voiced his opinion and even went public and against the orders of the
War Department. He was court-martialed for insubordination, found guilty, and suspended from active duty without pay for 5 years, he chose to resign instead. He spent the next ten years from 1926 to 1936 writing and preaching air power to all who would listen.


General Billy Mitchell is now considered one of the heroes of the USAF, and one of the leading proponents of US Air Power at the time.

That is courage, that is lack of fear, that is integrity. Perhaps these generals could have been more like Billy Mitchell.

[sendero]

11. I wonder..

... if this isn't a spontaneous effort to keep us from fucking up in Iran the way we have in Iraq.

[Joe Fields]

16. Could very well be. Maybe their voices now might do some good,

afterall. We can hope and pray anyway.

[jarab]

18. As originally concocted ...

It was very likely "assumed" that the top military brass would NEVER have an idiot for their Commander-in-Chief.
jmo
...O...

[AndyA]

19. Regardless of how you feel about the Generals now,

this does blow the "we'll pull out when the commanders on the ground in Iraq tell us it's time to pull out" theory. Obviously they've never listened to the commanders on the ground. This is just another lie being propagated upon the American populace.

This administration thinks it knows all, and that is very dangerous. You can't tell them they are wrong, they retaliate against you if you do. This is communism and/or Nazi Germany at its finest. Take your pick, either way the American people are the big losers.

Edit: Spelling.

[vanlassie]

20. TODAY SHOW" General says "We Need Accountability.."

The sixth general to be interviewed- this morning on the TODAY show said something very interesting. At the very end of the interview, he said: "We need accountability for "what happened five years ago."

....Now what exactly might that have been? I think it could have been a reference to 9-11. But that's just me.

Vanlassie

[RethugAssKicker]

23. I agree... but don't hold them totally responsible...

They were afraid of personal loss, such as being de-ranked ...etc..

I personally don't trust the military as much as many here.... and don't think they deserve any more "respect" than all the rest of us. Lets face it, all these guys are just doing their jobs!

[Raksha]

56. Yes, the generals would get de-ranked or retired,

as some of them did, and Rumsfeld went ahead and did what he wanted anyway.

[BlackHeart]

25. I hope all those generals are smart enough

to not all get on a plane together.

[librechik]

33. You don't know that. You only know that if they spoke up,

it didn't stop the war. Millions of us spoke out and it didn't stop the war. Do you now call us out because you think we didn't protest hard enough?

"The People" can do very little when leaders are determined. Even if they wear stars.

[Murdock]

43. Zinni Did..

Zinni saw the writing on the wall Loooong before the Iraq war and spoke out forcefully.

[Arugula Latte]

45. And Colin Powell not only did not speak out, he carried water for them.

That bastard KNEW what he was saying before the U.N. was, in his words, "bullshit," and yet he said it anyway. :grr:

[RethugAssKicker]

70. Yeah.. .I lost all respect for him then...

He was the one man!... .THE ONE MAN.. who possibly could have stopped this shit... and he joined the dark side in the name of misdirected duty and honor. FUCK HIM.

[spanone]

47. One of them did, I heard him speak of it on NPR yesterday.

I failed to get his name. He spoke up while in uniform and lost part of his pension, lost one of his stars and was forced to retire. Maybe this is why they didn't speak up while in uniform. This is A VERY PENAL ADMINISTRATION. VINDICTIVE. LOOK AT JOE WILSON!

[dogday]

49. Now don't you go and spread the truth!!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[leeroysphitz]

52. The military doesn't work that way...

If you are a general you have the option to comply with orders or resign, that's it. If you aren't a general then you shut up and do as your told. That's how armies work. It lets scumbag politicians get away, literally, with murder sometimes but it needs to be that way.

[Neil Lisst]

57. That is impossible, to expect them to speak out on active duty.

That is not how the military works. You voice your concerns inside the organization, and once you have your orders, you either get behind it or get out.

[ShortnFiery]

59. You're absolutely right ...

But they can promptly RESIGN, then speak out. I'd also like to hear the voices of some of the SENIOR ENLISTED?

Yes, while on Active Duty they cannot speak out, but these officers took their oath of office- to work under the Commander-in-Chief but THEY SERVE THE CONSTITUTION.

The continued RESIGNATION of General Officers en masse would be a profound show of patriotism. We must get these ghoul Neo-cons of Rummy's out of the Pentagon and other civilian leadership positions of the military. They continue to conduct these occupations "on the cheap" and our children are continuing to die because of their LORDING over the Military Leaders who know how to care for the troops while accomplishing the mission.

[Neil Lisst]

64. anyone who is not retired can be called back to active duty

Former soldiers who are still on inactive reserve time risk being called up and pulled back into the military. Even though an officer can resign, they can keep him for as long as he committed.

[ShortnFiery]

65. No, *Regular* Officers = most of the senior Leadership

Are required to RESIGN. They have served all their extra obligations and have no more - required service in the IRR.

Nope, the vast majority of General Officers (and many Senior Enlisted) don't have any more "service points" to work off.

They would be free to speak out after their UNQUALIFIED RESIGNATIONS are accepted and processed.

Not a problem - not at all. :hi:

[Neil Lisst]

66. sure they resign, but they can be required to fulfill their obligation

If they owe the military years, they can't simply "resign."

You're welcome.

As for general officers, well of course most are beyond the years needed to retire, but there was an issue earlier about other officers, non generals.

[ShortnFiery]

67. I prefaced that ... if you don't owe time, then YES you can

Simply RESIGN!

We're talking past each other buddy. :P

[Neil Lisst]

68. in that case, never mind

[tabasco]

61. They might have spoken up. I don't know.

You have a lot more freedom to express your opinion about your commander when you are out of the service.

These guys may have spoken up and been told "the decision is made." At that point they have to do their best to carry out any legal orders, whether they agree with it or not.

It's nice to see the former Commander of the 82nd Airborne speak out. I hear Fayetteville is turning blue.

[walldude]

62. Many Generals and other soldiers did speak out

and they were summarily fired or demoted. Anyone who disagreed with the assessment that the war would last 6 weeks to 6 months, cost 80 billion dollars and only take 125,000 soldiers was removed from the planning and operation of the war. Look at it this way, these are soldiers. Trained and built to follow orders. For them to speak out against the war is counter to their programming. If these guys are speaking out things are worse than we thought. Regardless of what the talking heads claim..

[KAT119]

63. I totally agree w/ YOU, Joe-in the Nuremburg Trials post WWII

ANYONE who said that they were "just following orders-just doing my job" etc. were GUARANTEED IMMEDIATE CONVICTION by the Judges as war criminals, and rightly so-they had other choices always available to them vs murder and devastation of countries etc.

[KerryOn]

69. Can't say as I blame them....

If they would have spoken up, they would have surly lost their entire retirement.