Foetuses 'cannot experience pain'

[DELUSIONAL]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4905892.stm

Foetuses cannot feel pain because it requires mental development that only occurs outside the womb, says a report in the British Medical Journal.

Dr Stuart Derbyshire, of the University of Birmingham, said a baby's actions and relationships with carers enabled it to process the subjectivity of pain.

Pro-life groups say foetuses respond to stimuli from 20 weeks.

He concludes that pathways in the brain needed to process pain responses and hormonal stress responses are in place by 26 weeks.

"Pain is something that comes from our experiences and develops due to stimulation and human interaction.

"It involves concepts such as location, feelings of unpleasantness and having the sensation of pain.


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[DS1]

1. I'm as pro-choice as they come, but I think that's a load of crap

They're saying that all those weeks of laying out the nervous system are for nothing until the moment the baby hits daylight?

No way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. I agree, this is counter-intuitive. n/t

[droidamus2]

4. Not quite

I think what they are trying to say is that because the fetus is not conscious in the same sense that a newborn is that the fetus does not recognize pain in the same way that a fully conscious person would. The nervous system may react to stimuli but the fetus doesn't 'feel pain' like you our I perceive pain. Are they right? Who knows. I'm sure some pro-birth group will come out with a study in the next week saying the fetus feels excruciating pain.

[DS1]

11. If that were true, babies would come out silent

No? A chemical reaction doesn't happen that fast unless it's directly infused in the blood. And if placentas and womb-fluids had that much of an effect, we have already found a way to roll it up and smoke it :smoke:

[kahleefornia]

15. like anesthesia?

When they put you "under" for an operation, you're still feeling all the pain (or, your nervous system is reacting to stimuli and sending messages to your brain about it). You're just not conscious of it.

[DS1]

16. No, I don't think that's how it works

chemicals block those signals at the source, the synapses.

[kahleefornia]

17. I don't know....

I saw a terrifying show on Discovery about "anesthesia awareness" - people who wake up during surgical procedures and are fully aware of everything, but can't move and so can't let anyone know there's a problem. They said they feel everything. They also discussed that there's a philisophical debate over the idea that some drugs can simply make you not remember an experience - so if you wake up, feel terrible pain, then go back under, and don't remember it happening - is that a problem or not?

I think there is a difference between anesthesia and analgesia - and that if you're going to be unconscious of pain, there's no reason to also medicate you to block that pain.

(and after seeing that show, I never want to have surgery ever again! aaghh!)

[DS1]

19. Either way, it's a chemical malfunction

either the chemicals stopped working, or never worked, at the source, or the chemicals stopped working at the brain. If it's in the blood then there's no telling what's going on since we're both not doctors.

The rest of the argument is moot.

[Maraya1969]

21. Babies do come out silent. It is only after they take their first breath

that they cry.

There have been cases of babies born without the ability to feel pain.
Apparently the nerve/brain connection is not intact. It is a horrible syndrome because the babies will hurt themselves and not know it.

[Skinner]

6. Agreed.

I am also extremely pro-choice. But this sould like crap to me too.

[DS1]

18. On the other hand

If this is a floater, and gets accepted, then it's fodder for anti-choicers who can then say that pro-choice liberal demoncrats (intended) are baby torturers, and that they are hypocritical to protest Abu Graihb!

Oh, and we kick puppies.

[darkmaestro019]

12. I'm with you. I don't know if fetuses at the stage at which

an abortion is permitted (currently, sometimes!) can experience pain as we'd understand it, but isn't the reverse of this argument what's being used to justify the ANESTHESIA free mutilation of babies' penises quite a few hours AFTER they hit daylight?

Which is it?

[miss_american_pie]

2. I don't think so

Why else do they cry during the heel pricks? And should docs go back to doing circumcisions without anasthesia?

This is not the way to go about insuring abortion rights.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. I attended my son's circumcision

He sure acted as if it hurt like hell.

To say that I doubt their conclusions is an understatement.

[darkmaestro019]

13. Teach me to scroll down, again. (sigh) (nt)

[Lance_Boyle]

24. fetuses do not undergo heel pricks

the neonatal heel prick experience of pain is consistent with this report's findings.

[htuttle]

5. I'm not sure what 'feeling pain' has to do with anything

All animals feel pain -- yet we eat them anyway. If 'feeling pain' was a criteria for the value of a life form, we'd all be Buddhist vegetarians. Although since some studies indicate that even plants feel a form of pain, I'm not sure what we could eat under that measure of 'being-ness'. Fallen fruit, maybe.

[wtmusic]

8. It's intended to assuage the guilt

of people who think late-term abortions are fine and dandy.

[VelmaD]

20. yeah...'cause we all know millions of women...

have late-term abortions just for the hell of it. :eyes:

[darkmaestro019]

14. Very good point. nt

[cali]

9. True or not true

(and it sounds like baloney to me) this makes for a lousy, terrible pro-choice argument. Clearly it doesn't apply to the bulk of a abortions, as some 90% are done in the first trimester. States can regulate abortion after the threshold of viability is crossed. Arguing that late term abortions are OK because the fetus doesn't feel pain is a losing prospect. Virtually no one favors late term abortions except for health of the mother and severe fetal anomalies.

[Igel]

10. Twiddle with definitions, and you can prove that

the sky is made out orange donkey dung reeking of attar.

Pain isn't physiological, but a result of consciousness and placing it in the proper psychological context. See, no pain. And fish don't feel pain, and many (all?) animals don't feel pain, and, gee, many adult humans also don't feel pain.

Or is it a more basic physiological stimulus response to signals coming from the right kinds of nerve cells? Gee, that means that many animals do feel pain, and even unconscious or severely retarded adult humans feel pain. (I'll leave aside the question if lower orders of animals feel pain as simply more terminological wrangling).

"Carer"?

[Maraya1969]

22. Humans experience pain different also. That is why the new some of

the new antidepressants help people with chronic pain. (See Depressionhurts.com )

When they talk about a "low threshold for pain" or a high one it really has a biological basis. Consider how a person can do amazing things with broken bones when under an extreme circumstance such as a physical threat - like running away from a bear. It it only after that person is safe that they feel the pain.

[jumpoffdaplanet]

23. It would be horribly cruel if pain was felt before birth

Otherwise, imagine the horrors of the pain felt has at birth itself. The pain of being pushed out through the birth canal.

Pro-birthers are cruel, wishing that pain is felt before birth.

[jmowreader]

25. The "pro-lifers" are probably correct on this one

I mean the part about the fetus needing to be 20 weeks old to be able to feel pain.

This is a double-edged sword for them, though; 20 weeks is five months--well within the second trimester, and into the timeframe where you need a damn good reason to get an abortion. It's perilously close to the "life and health of the mother or severe fetal abnormality" cutoff at 24 weeks.

Someone who's carrying a five-month-old pregnancy isn't talking to an abortion doctor, they're talking to me about decorating the baby's room.

And this is where the "pre-procedure notification" laws kinda fall flat on their face:

Doctor: "According to the laws of this state, I am required to give you information on 20-week-old unborn children in an attempt to dissuade you from procuring an abortion. In this binder you can see photos of 20-week-old unborn children. In this binder are ultrasounds of 20-week-old unborn children. This video you are about to see was taken with an intrauterine camera of a 20-week-old unborn child, and the sounds you are hearing are from 20-week-old unborn children. I must also inform you that 20-week-old unborn children suck their thumbs, kick their mothers, can feel pain, can survive outside the womb, enjoy listening to grand opera and programming computers, have a fine sense of style, and are completely qualified to be president of the United States."

Patient: "I've been pregnant a week. Tell me about my unborn child."

Doctor: "Your unborn child is about the size of the eraser on the end of a pencil. It hasn't formed organs, limbs or a head yet. It doesn't look human; in fact, it doesn't look like much of anything at all...which is why we tell you about 20-week-old unborn children in an attempt to pull your heartstrings instead of what you're carrying."

[DS1]

26. ___

:yourock: