George Bush was NOT A FIGHTER PILOT at all!

[benburch]

Most people, when hearing that Bush flew an F-102 in the TANG think that at least he had to develop some skills at combat flying, dogfighting, plotting interceptions, locking on and firing missiles...

NOPE

Bush flew the Convair F-102 "Delta Dagger". This was the world's first totally automatic fighter aircraft. The pilot was required to take off, land, climb to altitude, and fly in formation, but had to develop NO combat skills!

From the time the pilot, guided by ground controllers to the vicinity of the target, acquired the target on radar and engaged the flight electronics, to the time the aircraft had expended all of its missiles, he was totally a passenger. The electronics package would plot the intercept, fly the aircraft to the proper point, and fire the aircraft's compliment of guided missiles or unguided rockets, and do all of this while the pilot watched the show.

Bush is a fraud in more than his claim that he served honorably.

He does not deserve the title "fighter pilot".

[CatWoman]

1. he doesn't deserve the title "president" either.

[opihimoimoi]

6. He deserves SHIT cause thats all he gives us...BS

[Virginia Dare]

2. Bush is a fraud, that about sums it up...n/t

[npincus]

3. I thought he flew one of these:

[Lars39]

4. Wasn't it also an airplane that was going to be phased out soon?

[benburch]

15. Yes.

The bomber threat it was designed to address was no longer considered to be significant enough for a dedicated bomber-only interceptor.

[FogerRox]

35. Right- the 102 mission was to intercept Soviet Bombers coming over the

north pole.

Really good choice from his standpoint, as the plane would nerver be used in Nam. IIRC the F-16 was in the pipeline, and by 1976 the F-18 was flying at the Paris Airshow.

[boobooday]

5. Sounds just like the way he governs

The Pseudo-President.

[Cleita]

7. He didn't win the title of President either.n/t

[AndyA]

8. Fighter Pilot, President, CEO, brave, compassionate, Christian,

empathetic, American, caring, giving, concerned, loyal, honest...

There are so many titles and descriptions George Bush does not deserve.

And there are a few that he does deserve:

Fraud, liar, cheat, thief, coward, etc.

[fooj]

12. Treasonous, rat bastard is an imposter.

Peace.

[maveric]

9. Coulter on Real Time: "The TANG was the most dangerous unit...

in the US during that time..." <paraphrased> Something else about how they had crashes...

[Vickers]

37. Drunk fratboys lawndarting them into the Texas desert does not

qualify as "dangerous" but rather "expected."

He was no fighter pilot: you have to FIGHT to be a fighter pilot.

[Neil Lisst]

10. Most importantly, it was not used in Vietnam

so there was never any risk Bush would be sent

he could not fly any aircraft in use in Vietnam

[benburch]

17. There were no Tu-95 BEAR bombers in use in 'nam.

And this aircraft would have been just fodder for a MiG.

[Neil Lisst]

25. the Tu-95 Bear was a Soviet aircraft. what's your point?

I agree it would have been chewed up a MIG, but there was no possibility of that, since the aircraft wasn't being used in Vietnam.

[benburch]

27. The F-102 could only deal with Tu-95s and similar.

It was a heavy bomber interceptor and nothing else.

No Tu-95s in 'nam means that there was not even a ghost of a chance that Bush's aircraft could have been ordered there. The North Vietnamese had no heavy bombers.

[Neil Lisst]

31. I see. All I know is we considered the F 102 obsolete in 1969.

for war service

[benburch]

33. Yes.

Its electronics were aging, and the threat had changed.

[Neil Lisst]

46. I see. I agree. It was an aircraft designed for a decade earlier.

F-105 Thunderchief and B-52s were the two primary aircraft used in Vietnam to attack enemy positions. The F-111 got plenty of run, when it was not grounded. The F-102 was a minor, minor player in Vietnam, and most of those earlier in the war, not later.

My point is that Bush made sure he learned an aircraft that was not going to Vietnam, and he bailed before he could develop further piloting skills necessary to fly aircraft that were being used in combat.

He's always been a weasel.

[TahitiNut]

38. F-102A's were at Tan Son Nhut, Bien Hoa, and Da Nang thru December 1969.

While almost useless in the role, they flew a few close air support missions and a few missions over North Vietnam. They were designed for air-to-air combat. I seriously doubt Smirk ever flew in anything other than the TF-102A two-seater. There's no way that jackass would've been trusted alone in a multi-million-dollar machine, obsolete or not.

[benburch]

40. Damn, that had to get a lot of pilots killed! nt

[TahitiNut]

41. I don't think more than two or three were ever downed in 6 years.

:shrug: I think the VC got far more on the ground than ever fell out of the sky.

One reason to have them was for desk-jockeys to log air time - yes, we had those in 'Nam, too.

[Neil Lisst]

71. they were used BEFORE Bush was trained and qualified to fly them

but practically phased out entirely by the time he finished his training for the F 102.

Of the 8500 aircraft shot down or lost in Vietnam by the US, fewer than 20 were F 102.

By 1969, they were being used almost exclusively to teach, and that's where you saw them, doing "touch and go's" for pilots who were training.

[lisa58]

11. It's all the same...

...no matter what he does, that's how he does it.

Back in 2001 I remember reading (probably on Buzzflash) a woman's recount of protesting that #$%hole and she screamed as his car passed by, "Your life is a lie!" It made her feel better to say it and it makes me feel better to remember it.

[SoCalDem]

13. Aaaw, say it ain't so!..But he gets to keep the codpiece?? Right?

:)

[adriennui]

14. he's always been full of turd

there's not an honest bone in his body. most politicians are liars but he takes it to a new level.

[NightOwwl]

16. He doesn't deserve the title "human being."

Scumsucking coward, lying piece of shit, war-mongering sociopath is more like it.

[Bluesplayer]

44. please tell the secret service I said, "Hi."

[benburch]

55. Most of the Secret Service probably agree with that!

Their job is protecting the "president", not liking him.

[jrw14125]

18. after falling off segways, couches, bikes, steps, stages, etc...

... and THE WAGON!, DO YA'LL REALLY THINK HE'D SURVIVE 1 SECOND IN A DOGFIGHT? lmao!

[SoCalDem]

19. Hey.. the man has nerves of steel..shame on you..poetry in motion

BAD poetry, but poetry still..and very entertaining to look at..

[benburch]

21. I wish we had been able to find out.

We'd likely have been free of him.

[Earth_First]

20. He* was a drunk, womanizing cokehead in the 1970's

"Skills"


....HA!

[NI4NI]

24. On the bright side

the coward wasn't piloting an armed fighter jet drunk or hopped up on blow.

[benburch]

22. More on this aircraft here;

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f102.htm

[rniel]

23. But I thought he was like Maverik in Top Gun

darn...

I guess everything about the man is phony. I wonder if regular americans are finally catching on.

[Sapere aude]

26. The F-106 was like that also.

Most of us DUers could learn to fly the F-102 also.

[benburch]

28. F-106 was essentially an F-102 variant. nt

[benburch]

52. Just looked it up...

F-106 was even more automatic than the F-102!

[Lisa]

29. okay, everyone -- picture him swaggering around in his flightsuit ...

Got that image in your mind? Now, imagine him squeezing into the cockpit and actually trying to fly a plane.

* * *
Bill Minutaglio's "First Son, George W. Bush and the Bush Family Dynasty" (Random House, 1999

Evans said he'd love to go flying. At the airport he watched Bush stare at the controls, at the panel, and he realized that Bush-though not admitting it-had no idea how to fly the thing properly. After finally figuring out how to launch the plane, Bush pushed the Cessna hard down the runway. Evans screamed, "Give it some gas!" The Cessna's warning system was blinking and crackling. Bush tried to lift his craft fast, almost as if he were piloting a jet back in the Texas Air National Guard. The plane wobbled into the air, and the unsubtle maneuvering threatened to shove it into a stall. Now the rented plane was rattling in the sky over Midland

The endless petrochemical complexes, all the aluminum and steel and smoke stacks that pockmark the Permian Basin, were spiking up just below the aircraft. Bush nervously turned to Evans, put his hand on his knee and blurted in his self-mocking West Texas way, "Okay, Evvie, I’ve got it under control."

After more seemingly endless moments, he somehow got control of the plane again. He aimed the aircraft down, and the landing was as shaky and brutal as the takeoff. The plane careened off the runway and onto the desert. Evans sighed in relief. Then an unbelieving Evans braced himself as Bush suddenly and unexpectedly spun the plane and bounced back along the runway. Evans stared at Bush. He could see the fear and panic flooding his face.


http://www.seanet.com/~johnco/bush102.htm

[frylock]

57. i love this story!

I always post it when there's a discussion of junior's flying skills.

[SoCalDem]

30. How'd he do this?? Who flew the plane

SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Sun Sep-12-04 10:30 AM

Original message

Spring 1971: ........Bush uses F-102 to shuttle tropical plants from Fla



Spring 1971: Hired by Texas agricultural importer, Bush uses F-102 to shuttle tropical plants from Florida.



Whole timeline @

http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2003/01/ma_217...

[benburch]

32. Ordinary flying is not like combat flying.

Yes, he could take off and fly the aircraft. He could set a course and engage the autopilot to fly him there. (Poorly by all accounts.) But he had no combat flying skills at all. Hence, he was not a fighter pilot.

[SoCalDem]

34. But would HE be able to choose the course?? I have always thought

that if he DID this, it might have been a reason he got grounded (and the refusal to take a physical).. I can;t see TANG looking favorably on pilots taking the planes out for "personal reasons"..and just what WERE those plants, George?

[benburch]

36. Yes, you enter the data into the autopilot. nt

[benburch]

39. Now, there WAS a mode where the ground could fly the intercept.

So that you did not need to fly the aircraft at all after take-off.

I doubt that mode was available to TANG squadrons.

[TheBaldyMan]

67. It may have more to do with the fact that he couldn't fly to save

himself. The brass must have put him in an F106 because he was so clueless, he barely passed his aeronautical exams with a score of 25% the absolute minimum allowable. Surprising because the TANG was heavily oversubscribed and they could choose from the best candidates.

Did his duty and served honourably, my arse.

[AtomicKitten]

42. Plus he was grounded for failing to take the required physical exam

when drug testing became a standard part of the exam. However, considering the fact that the Bush operatives were so thorough in destroying his actual record, the fairy tale of him being a macho fighter pilot still hovers like a fart cloud above the heads of the sheep.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. And his refusal to take a physical coincides with the story that...

...he was having to perform community service in Houston, TX.

[chaumont58]

43. I saw a story about Bush flying a light plane

It was a story told by Donald Evans(if I remember right) on going up with Bush in a light plane. From the story, it seems to me that Bush has such pisspoor piloting skills that even walking near an airport is an act of foolishness and bravery for Bush, and anyone who flys with him. It is evident as to why Bush gave up flying.

[CottonBear]

45. I remember reading that story here on DU.

DimSon scared the shit out of his unfortunate passenger(s). :scared:

[benburch]

49. Some Freeptards still actually believe that he flew that S-3 Viking...

...to the "Mission Accomplished" photo up on the aircraft carrier.

They were waxing poetic at the time over how hard it is to "shoot the trap" on a carrier landing.

I wish to this day that he had decided to fly that aircraft. He'd be dead by his own hand. This war would be over. John Kerry would be President.

[CottonBear]

50. They believe that? Thy're stupider than I thought.

Good point about him actually flying and landing it. We'd have been done with him ages ago.

[benburch]

51. Hard for a mentally normal person to imagine how stupid they are.

And it's not just ignorance. Ignorance can be cured. Stupid goes right to the bone.

[stepnw1f]

66. Oh Man, That is So True

It's cognitive dissonance. A willful ignorance out of spite.

[chaumont58]

61. Never would have happened, even landing on a carrier, aboard

an airplane is a foolish stunt. I thought at the time, and think so now. Of course, Tweety got his panties all wet, just talking about it.

[Lisa]

62. the passenger was Donald Evans (who became Sec of Commerce)

Did Georgie give him the job because he knows where the bodies are buried, so to speak?

[frylock]

59. check it..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x932791#933065

[chaumont58]

60. That is exactly the story I was talking about

And I say it again. Bush is so without talent, that to even walk by an airport is an act of foolishness and bravery.

[Lisa]

63. not only that -- his own family members are reluctant to go with him

I have read other reports that Georgie deliberately stalled a plane while he was taking his younger brother (Marvin, I think) and some of the children he was supposed to be supervising at that inner-city Houston program, just to teach them a lesson (and show off). This is the same program he never helped out with again, after the year had elapsed.

And his sister Dorothy has said that she would rather go sailing with Neil, because Georgie does not have good control of the boat. I think she was also in the car when he was picked up for drunk driving in Maine?

[benburch]

64. Well, stalling a plane and recovering it isn't dangerous.

As long as you have altitude, and it is a properly designed aircraft, this should never be a problem. But you certainly could scare your passengers if you were an SOB.

[Lisa]

73. so much for "adult supervision", if Georgie's around!

Okay, so I'm a bad person -- there are some people I can think of whom I've secretly wanted to frighten into silence. (Can't, because I'd lose my job ... these days teachers can get a disciplinary hearing if they so much as yell at a kid to stop punching someone!) But I can see why someone who'd actually do it would have some SOB tendencies, as you say (plus the arrogance to believe that he'd never have to account for it). Considering the rumors that his dad made him do this volunteering thing as punishment in the first place, he'd have to be pretty cocky! But that's Bush, all over.

Besides, given the other flying stories in this thread, I would personally have some reservations about whether he had a 100% chance of getting back control over the plane. I'm siding with his sister Dorothy on this ... I'd rather not have Dubya at the yoke, tiller, wheel, or any other steering apparatus. Also, I would love to get Marvin drunk and find out what he really thinks about his brother -- cool, or a jerk?


"David Anderson was another PULL employee, two years older than Bush, and he especially liked the fact that Bush had made arrangements to take some of the PULL kids such as Jimmy up for their first airplane ride.

The day of the ride, Bush asked his sixteen-year-old brother, Marvin, to come along. One of the PULL kids started popping off, making noise, once they were up in the air. Bush stalled the engine for a second, and the passengers, scared to death, grew quiet." Minutaglio, Bill. First Son, George W. Bush and the Bush Family Dynasty, Random House, NY, 1999 Pg. 151,

[Kansas Wyatt]

48. Our Beloved Glorious Commander

Was bravely defending American airspace from a surprise Vietnamese air attack from Mexico. Our Dear Leader even saved a few of our boys on the ground, by sacrificing himself on booze, drugs, and prostitutes, to protect our fighting boys heading to battle. Oh, he gave so much of himself for his country. :puke: :sarcasm:

[alfredo]

53. My dad helped with the development of the

safety harness for that plane. He said it was so sturdy that the pilot's body would pass through it before it would break.

[benburch]

54. LOL! nt

I can imagine that as you would be in a missile, essentially, once you engaged the electronics. The G-forces would have been interesting, and they would not care if you blacked out.

[alfredo]

56. I seem to remember him speaking of receiving one harness

all covered in blood. He always had bizarre stories like that.

BTW, he owned an automobile upholstery shop. He did a lot of custom work and did a lot of bucket seats and harnesses for drag racers. Ed Hill's twin was one of his jobs.



He measured the bucket seat with his hands, then made the tuck and roll upholstery using nothing but the measurements he took with his hands. I saw him do it.



If you are talking about missiles, Eddie Hill's twin engine dragster would qualify.

[blm]

58. He also NEVER FINISHED because he was TOO SCARED OF LANDING.

Yet, the media portrays a guy who's scared of horses and landing planes as a big jet pilot rancher, while they tell people that Kerry was a lesser man ignoring that he can ride quarterhorses and do barrel rolls with a plane.

[benburch]

65. Looks like somebody felt the need to call me out over this.

I'll let you search for the posting yourself, though. DU rules.

[hamerfan]

68. He's a loser,

Ben, pay him no mind. His post has nothing to do with your well-spelled-out facts regarding the qualifications to be a fighter pilot.
dumpbush
PS... Love your posts! Especially in the Science forum. Made it over to the White Rose site for the first time yesterday. Will need more time to fully check it out (dialup here).

[benburch]

69. Dialup sucks.

Most of my content is 24kbps, so it will take about 45 minutes per hour of show to download stuff...

The good news is that you can do this automatically with iTunes and podcasting if you are willing to allow your computer to remain up overnight and connected.

[hamerfan]

74. It does suck,

especially when the outdated telephone lines/equipment here limit you to a max 28k.
Even better news. The town I live in is installing fiber to all residences. The trunk lines are in and they are now going house-to-house, comleting the installs. 5 meg up/down for $35/month. Being fiber it is neither distance sensitive nor traffic sensitive. Residences can get up to 30 meg and businesses up to 100 meg.
So by next month I'll be a regular at the White Rose. Thanks Ben!
dumpbush

[benburch]

76. EXCELLENT!

That ROCKS!

(And I pay $104 a month for 1.5 meg down, 768 up and I am jealous!)

[benburch]

70. His whole thing was based on...

the distinction between a fighter and an interceptor.

And there *is* a distinction, but an f-102 isn't really either. It is called an all-weather interceptor, because it does not require the pilot to see anything, being totally capable of completing its mission on RADAR. But to compare it to other interceptors is false because it was totally automated.

The Pilot is "spam in a can" for much of the combat mission, and the aircraft becomes a fully automated weapons delivery platform.

Yes, Bush needed to take off. Yes, Bush had to land. Neither of which is particularly difficult in this type. Delta aircraft have a lot of ground-effect "float" and so it is fairly hard to slam one down hard enough to collapse the landing gear, especially since the nose gear had been extensively re-enforced after early problems.

He mad the point that it was a dangerous aircraft. However;

Category A accidents per 100,000 flying hours per year, 1961-70:

F105 --18.3
F100 --14.4
F101 --13.2
F102 --9.9.

So.... It appears that it was about the safest thing you could fly! When you were actually flying it, of course, and it was not flying itself.

So, yes, I understand that an interceptor is a launch-fire-land profile aircraft that never contemplated dogfighting. THAT WAS THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE.

And the F-102 was even easier than your average Interceptor because it was wholly automated.

BUSH was NO FIGHTER PILOT.

[xxqqqzme]

72. I have never believed he ever solo-ed

I cannot believe he ever sat still long enough 2 take the test, let alone learn the math required by it.

[benburch]

75. I do know that the unit he flew with...

had several of the fairly rare dual control training versions of this a/c.