Greatest martyr, ever, to you?

[Guaranteed]

This is almost a blasphemous post. I realize this. To think that people could come up with a "greatest" martyr is just...well, it's stupid. It's ridiculous, although I overuse that word.

But, there have been so many who have fought for true justice. The vast, vast majority of them are not even infamous- which is okay, as long as the cause endures.

Those who we all readily recall would include:

Abraham Lincoln

Mahatma Gandhi

Robert F. Kennedy

Martin Luther King, Jr.

Malcolm X

Che Guevara

Jesus Christ



I leave it to you to add to this list, and remind us all of the most solemn sacrifice that humanity has made for the good of all.

Let their contribution be known.

[mr_hat]

1. Lowell George.

If you have to ask...

[Guaranteed]

2. For those who don't know, including me, what did he do? nt

[DIKB]

26. All due respect

not a martyr I'd say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowell_George

[mr_hat]

47. Eh. One man's martyr, another's mere tortured genius.

[Erika]

3. Bill Clinton

He made this world one world with his standing ovation at the U.N. He connected us with the rest of the world.

He made us a respected leader.

He was ruthlessly maligned by a small and rabid group of right wing fanatics.

[Guaranteed]

4. He was definitely well-loved, and still is. nt

[Starbucks Anarchist]

5. But in the end, he still won.

[Guaranteed]

7. He really did.

He could have been another FDR.

If it wasn't for the limit on presidential terms, he would be elected again even in 2008.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

12. Hell, he could be elected anywhere.

Everywhere he goes, people step over each other trying to get close to him.

Meanwhile, President Numbnuts can't even go to Canada without getting booed.

[Guaranteed]

13. You're right. He's an amazing man.

To be honest, I don't really like him that much, because he gave in to so much.

But, you're right. He is extremely well-loved, and he brought the world together.

To put it another way- 9/11, in my opinion, would NEVER, EVER have happened on his watch.

[BlooInBloo]

6. No one's said Jesus?

lol

Don't get me wrong - I don't go for the fairy tale - but a lot of others do... Surprised it isn't a primary option...

[Guaranteed]

8. No, I thought of him, but seriously forgot.

I'll edit right now. You're absolutely right.

On edit: And, possibly, as far as Western civilization is concerned, whether he was divine or not (and he wasn't, IMO), possibly the greatest martyr ever.

If you consider what he advocated, it seems as if everyone after him was just an echo.

It's what he said that matters.

[JI7]

9. not sure

does it have to be those killed ? i noticed someone else mentioned Clinton. but at a different level Mandela should probably be included as well if it includes those who were not killed or still alive.

[Guaranteed]

14. Yeah- I guess I really do mean those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

There have been so many great leaders- some died "in the line of duty," and some didn't.

Mandela is certainly one of the greatest- I really mean GREATEST- leaders of our time, or even the 20th century.

[BlooInBloo]

10. Obi Wan Kenobi!!!

:rofl:

[racaulk]

11. Rosa Parks and Harriet Tubman

Both true civil rights pioneers. :)

[lvx35]

15. The greatest martyrs to me...

are the completely nameless folks who were disappeared by Nazis or KGB trying to do the right thing. Huge respect. I toast to them whenever I drink.

[Guaranteed]

17. That's what felt so wrong to me about this post. That's why I wanted

people to name others, people that not everyone knows.

There are millions out there who have given EVERYTHING to the cause, yet we never know of them.

I'd just like to pay tribute to as many as we can, especially those noone has ever heard of.

[Marie26]

16. Joan of Arc. nt

[niyad]

18. margaret sanger

[Wetzelbill]

19. Paul Wellstone nt

[K-W]

20. The Haymarket Martyrs deserve a mention.

http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-1/497/497_08_MayDay.shtml

5 radical labor organizers legally executed after being arrested during the struggle for the 8 hour workday.

[RoyGBiv]

21. Of those ...

Martin Luther King, Jr., but only barely due to the manner of his death. He did not face it with any clear understanding that he was about to be killed.

I don't consider people like Kennedy or even Lincoln to be martyrs. Simply being assasinated doesn't qualify, imo. One has to have an understanding that the beliefs one holds and expresses openly *will* get you killed, probably by some legal process, by those in power. John Brown is more of a martyr than Lincoln is and in fact fits the traditional definition. His speech before the court that sentenced him to death shows the classic defiance of a martyr in the face of death.

[JI7]

23. you don't think that was the case with Lincoln ?

especially considering what he did pushed people to start a civil war ?

Kennedy is a special case since he was killed but not for the things he really stood for. i believe Sirhan Sirhan killed him because he was angry about Kennedy's position on Israel/Palestine issue.

[RoyGBiv]

27. Nope ...

He was in a theater, having a good time, actually trying to get away from the troubles of the world for a few moments, and not espousing any belief whatsoever at the moment of his death. He was never faced with a choice: continue espousing my belief or die. The man went to Richmond after it was taken, a bold move to be sure, but one undertaken without that imminent choice present. It was never a choice of "Go to Richmond, speak my mind, and die" or "Stay away from Richmond, keep my mouth shut, and live."

[Guaranteed]

30. Or King? Or even RFK? nt

[BlooInBloo]

25. Are you being sarcastic about MLK?

"He did not face it with any clear understanding that he was about to be killed."

You're kidding, right?

[RoyGBiv]

28. Well, let me ask you a question ...

Did MLK know he was about to die that day?

No, I'm not kidding. This is not a negative assessment of MLK, who did, in fact, die for his beliefs and the fact he was outspoken about them. I do consider him a martyr of a sort, but not on the same level as someone like John Brown or others like him.

John Brown was convicted in a court and sentence to death and could have, at any point, begged for mercy, outed his accomplices, and possibly received it. The Haymarket martyrs, mentioned above, were in a similar situation.

I'm very picky about the use of words, particularly those infused with such high status as that of "martyr." One who chooses to die rather than renounce a set of principles is more clearly a martyr in my mind than one who is suddenly assassinated for espousing those principles because there is no imminent choice involved. Perhaps this is a fine line, but I believe it is an important one.

[BlooInBloo]

29. Oh I get it. You're uselessly philistine about the matter...

Ok. No, he did not know the day, time, second, killer, conspirators, weapons, which artery was going to be severed, where the bullet would enter his body, what direction the bullet would come from, whether he'd be inhaling or exhaling at the time, or a number of other things.

My mistake. Because such detailed knoweldge is OBVIOUSLY required to order to be a martyr.

:sarcasm:

There are less fanciful versions of the story above which suffice to make the same point. I just like to spice it up.

[RoyGBiv]

31. Spare me ...

If you want to be "uselessly" confrontational about it, go ahead. I'm not playing such a childish game.

[TorchTheWitch]

34. I'd agree with that

I'm very picky about the use of words, particularly those infused with such high status as that of "martyr." One who chooses to die rather than renounce a set of principles is more clearly a martyr in my mind than one who is suddenly assassinated for espousing those principles because there is no imminent choice involved. Perhaps this is a fine line, but I believe it is an important one.

There should be a choice involved. Simply being assissinated for ones beliefs without knowing that one would die for those beliefs does not a martyr make in my mind. It's the knowing and carrying on anyway that crosses the line into martyrdom.

I would even go a step further and say that to me there need not even be any "cause" involved other than the protection of others. For example, to me, someone who throws themselves on a live granade in order to save the lives of those nearby would be a martyr... they know they are going to die, and their only "cause" is that of saving lives. I distinguish such an act as more than just heroic.

[deutsey]

36. I think after the FBI tried blackmailing him into killing himself

King had an awareness that he was marked. The night before his assassination I believe he was referring to this when he said he may not get to the promised land (the whole thing about a long life is nice, but sometimes you have to sacrifice your life for something more meaningful). Here's the quote:

"Well, I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn't matter with me now. Because I've been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He's allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the promised land. And I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about anything. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord."


Whether he knew he was going to be shot the following day is probably not the case, but this speech indicates to me that he must have known the crosshairs were fixing on him. The fact that he kept speaking out and pushing forward despite the blackmail threats and attacks on his life, speaks to the man's incredible courage.

[RoyGBiv]

38. I don't disagree

[sproutster]

40. Amen Sistah! :) I love MLK

[deutsey]

48. Archbishop Oscar Romero in El Salvador

Oscar Romero gave his last homily on March 24. Moments before a sharpshooter felled him, reflecting on scripture, he said, "One must not love oneself so much, as to avoid getting involved in the risks of life that history demands of us, and those that fend off danger will lose their lives." The homily, however, that sealed his fate took place the day before when he took the terrifying step of publicly confronting the military.

http://salt.claretianpubs.org/romero/romero.html

[cboy4]

22. My hero is that poor kid Matthew Shepard who died at the hands

of cowards because he was gay.

"Shortly after midnight on October 7, 1998, 21-year-old Shepard....was robbed, severely beaten, tied to a fence and left to die (near Laramie, Wyoming)..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard#The_attack

No human being deserved what he endured that night :(

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. Collectively, the twelve million +/- slaughtered in Hitler's camps...

and I'll throw a few more names out there, for the hell of it (more controversial choices, these).

John Brown

Sir Roger Casement

Ernesto 'Che' Guevara

Wilhelm Reich

Leon Trotsky

[dweller]

32. not burned yet

and everyday is a new day.


the only one i have to be better than, is the one i am at this moment.


the man in the mirror never blinks.
dp

[Lexingtonian]

33. not previously mentioned

Jan Hus
John Wycliffe
Claus von Stauffenberg
Etty Hillesum
Tecumseh
Socrates

[no_hypocrisy]

35. Father Mychal Judge.

The first official casualty recorded of September 11, 2001 was Mychal Judge, an elderly Franciscan priest who was killed after he had just administered the last rites to a fireman who had been struck by the body of a woman who had jumped from the towers. He was the chaplain of the New York City Fire Department.

He wore his Franciscan habit almost everywhere and rejoiced in his vow of poverty. As a priest he often sought out and confronted people who had been rebuffed by the harshness of other priests. His chief ministries were to the firemen of NYC, to recovering alcoholics in AA (himself being one), to people suffering from AIDS (he was gay), and to Franciscans preparing to make their solemn vows.

[sproutster]

41. Ooh thank you - I love remembering these people. beautiful man.

[kittenpants]

43. Thanks for reminding me of his story n/t

[Caretha]

37. My Grandmother

and my Mother too.....I swear! I'm convinced it's a trait in their genes.

[Time for change]

39. George McGovern

George McGovern spoke out against United States involvement in the Viet Nam War from the time he entered the Senate in 1963 until the United States withdrew from Viet Nam in 1973. McGovern was one of three or four U.S. Senators who opposed U.S. involvement in the early years of the war. He later said that it took more courage for him to speak out against the war as a junior Senator than it did for him to fly combat missions during World War II.

When he ran for the Presidency in 1972 his main campaign issue was U.S. withdrawal from Viet Nam. For that he was pilloried by the Republicans and by much of the national news media an anti-American “radical”. This resulted in a landslide loss (by about 20%) to Richard Nixon in the Presidential election, where McGovern carried only one state (Massachusetts).

But the fact of the matter is that in losing the Presidency, McGovern accomplished much more for our country than Richard Nixon did as President. For it was McGovern’s courageous and persistent opposition to the war that largely caused Nixon to run on a platform of ending the war. And although he didn’t end it as expeditiously as he said he would, it is almost certain that without McGovern’s aggressive anti-war campaign the Viet Nam War would have lasted much longer, with tens of thousands of additional deaths. So George McGovern may be radioactive to Democratic politicians today, but he is a hero nonetheless.

And today he is one of the foremost critics of the Iraq War.

[kittenpants]

42. MLK Jr. in my opinion n/t

[tatertop]

44. Rachel Corrie

She took the time to learn and rise above dumbamerica and then
acted on her conviction for a just cause.
That's as good as it gets.

[quaoar]

45. Dietrich Bonhoffer

[peacebuzzard]

46. all the above, plus, Chico Mendes

http://myhero.com/myhero/hero.asp?hero=c_mendes

[Reader Rabbit]

49. Ma Joad

I realize that she's a fictional character and that she didn't die during the course of Grapes of Wrath, but I just wanted to throw out the idea of lauding folk who live quietly and determinedly for a cause, and not just those who go out in a blaze of glory. Sometimes I think it takes a lot more strength and bravery to keep on plodding along in the background.

This is not meant to denigrate any of those listed above. Obviously these are people who deserve our admiration and respect. But to me Ma Joad epitomizes all the little people who work hard, keep things together, and make their own little patch a better place.

Does this make any sense at all?