HELP! THEY'RE KILLING MY SISTER!

[Th1onein]

The social work has contacted us regarding an ethics committee meeting with my sister's doctor. They have made up their mind. They are going to unplug my sister. She is cognizant and she has made it clear to us that she wants to live. They are saying that "the family members sometimes see things medical professionals don't." But, what they have done is just look at her on paper. They won't even go up to her room to talk to her.

Please, please, help me get this out on the blogs and into the media!

[MelissaB]

1. Do you have a link with more info?

I think I read a post by you before.

[Th1onein]

3. I don't know how to find a link....

Can someone do this? I have written about this before.

[converted_democrat]

7. Here are the links..

"HOSPITAL TO WITHHOLD LIFE SUPPORT! QUESTIONS ABOUT PROTESTING!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=738256

"UPDATE ON MY SISTER: PULLING THE PLUG"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=751913


edited for link titles..

[donco6]

33. I think your sister is dying of heart disease.

At least, that's what you said in the earlier post.

Who's supposed to be killing her?

[converted_democrat]

66. What are you talking about? I just posted the links, this isn't my

situation.. The poster didn't know how to find links of her earlier postings, so I did it for her..

[MelissaB]

8. Here's one:

Th1onein (1000+ posts) Sat Mar-25-06 11:52 AM
Original message
UPDATE ON MY SISTER: PULLING THE PLUG
To all of you who responded to my original post about the hospital wanting to pull the plug on my sister:

First of all, in Texas, we have the "Medical Futility" law, which Governor Bush signed into law in 1999. This law states that if doctors determine that it is medically futile to continue treating a person, as long as they go through a procedure involving the meeting of an ethics committee and that committee concurs with their belief in the futility of treating that person, they are not liable either criminally or civilly for discontinuing treatment for that patient.

Let me make this very clear to you all: If this ethics committee meets and they think that there is a medical futility, then even if the family disagrees or EVEN IF THE PATIENT IS RESPONSIVE AND DISAGREES, they can discontinue treatment. Period.

My sister is RESPONSIVE. She knows what is going on and she is able to communicate by eye blinks her wishes. She does not want to die.

But, according to the Texas medical futility law, that does not matter. They can discontinue treatment anyway.

What our family did was this: We threatened to picket the hospital. We contacted the Houston police and found that we are not required to have a permit to picket. Then we called the hospital and offered a deal, the day before the picketing was to begin: We would agree to delay the picket if the hospital would delay the meeting of the ethics committee and find another place for my sister to go, for long term treatment. The hospital agreed.

We are in the process of physically going to the places that the hospital found for her long term treatment, and seeing if they are nice enough for my sister to stay in. But, one last thing: If that ethics committee had met and determined medical futility applied in her case, the possibility of finding a place to take my sister would be NILL. She would have been unable to be moved and treatment would be discontinued and she would have died.

Keep all of this in mind if you have a loved one in a hospital in Houston. Stand up and be willing to fight for your loved one.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=751913

[SPKrazy]

51. Were You Unable To Find Another Place For Her?

Hospice?
Nursing home vent wing?

step down unit?

another state?

[Maine-ah]

2. kick for more info

[alfredo]

4. More info please. Is this health insurance driven?

Has she become too expensive for her HMO?

[Th1onein]

18. We have no lawyer, and YES her insurance is still paying

n/t

[alfredo]

84. But are they putting pressure on the hospital to

"pull the plug"?

[laruemtt]

5. do you have a lawyer?

can you contact a local hospice to see what your rights are?

[LA lady]

6. no info

We have no name, no city, no hospital, what do you want us to do????

[Th1onein]

21. My sister is in St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital in Houston, TX

Her name is Andrea Clark. She is 54 years old. She has a heart condition. She recently had surgery at St. Luke's and one of the valves of her heart is inflamed and not working correctly. She is being kept doped up on Fentanyl and can't often communicate, but when she does communicate, she makes it very clear that she wants to live. The doctors believe that she is terminal and that it is futile to care for her anymore, and despite the fact that she has made her wishes known, they want to withdraw life support anyway.

[dogday]

9. Which hospital in Houston is she in?????

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. :^( *hugs*

[DearAbby]

12. Kick for info

[mike_c]

11. with all due respect, it's unlikely that the ehics committee...

...is operating in a complete knowledge vacuum as your post suggests. What do your sister's doctors say? Do they agree that she is cognizant and responsive? They have undoubtedly advised the ethics committee about her condition. Can you move her to another facility?

Best of luck to you and your family.

[WilliamPitt]

17. It's Texas, dude

They unplug people when their care gets too expensive.

[stepnw1f]

22. No Fucking Way!?

really?

[MissB]

25. Was that sarcasm or true surprise?

You wouldn't be surprised to learn who originally signed the legislation. Then-gov George Bush.

Pro-life, my ass.

[stepnw1f]

32. These People are Sick

no I wasn't being sarcastic at all.

[rocktivity]

78. Meet the Ghost Of Baby Sun Hudson

Who Bush allowed to die while he rushed off to save Terri.

:(
rocknation

[WilliamPitt]

27. In case you aren't being sarcastic...

The next time you find yourself in a debate about Ms. Schiavo with a person who agrees with Bush and the Congressional majority on this, ask them about Sun Hudson. Hudson was born with a genetic disorder and was sustained by machines from the day of his birth. The Texas hospital housing him decided there was no point in sustaining his care, and Hudson was removed from his machines. He died at five months old.

This happened last week.

Five-month-old Sun Hudson was removed from his life-sustaining machines by a Texas law signed by then-Governor George W. Bush in 1999. The law allows patients deemed unsalvageable by the hospital to be removed from ventilators and other medical apparatus, with a ten-day window given to the families of the stricken to find another facility before the plug is pulled.

Sun Hudson was African-American, and neither Congress nor Mr. Bush came storming to his rescue before his death last week. Believe this: If Ms. Schiavo were an African American child, a Hispanic mother, an Iraqi wife, an Afghani grandmother, an American soldier suffering massive brain trauma from an explosion in Mosul, anyone from Darfur or the Congo, if she had been anything other than a white woman in a Fundamentalist-controlled state, we would have never, ever, heard of her.

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/9804

[stepnw1f]

38. No I wasn't Being Sarcastic

And thanks for the additional info. I am amazed that I still get so surprised... the Bush Family really is twisted.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. Will, aren't you in touch with Michael Moore in regard to Andy? Maybe

you could make Moore aware of this too?

[Generic Other]

57. I sent a link to this thread to Moore

Hope it helps.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

67. Thank you Generic Other! Hopefully he'll actually read it and help!

:hug:

[Pirate Smile]

71. That was what I was thinking too. Get Michael Moore involved. I'm

sure the hospital doesn't want that kind of publicity.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

86. I think if he shows up there with a film crew, the pressure will really be

on.

[Warpy]

55. Sun Hudson had reached the end of his life on a ventilator

and all he had to look forward to is slow suffocation as his rib cage collapsed his lungs as he grew.

Please don't assume you know about the case until you know the medical background.

Allowing nature to take its course in a hopeless case is not murder.

[mike_c]

41. c'mon Will-- I don't like the medical furtility law either, but...

...its intent is not to "unplug people when their care gets too expensive." It's meant to prevent continued futile long term maintainence-- in essence to provide exactly the sort of relief that I have written into my own living will: don't keep my body alive if my brain is dead.

The OP's sister's doctors MUST advise the ethics committee that she is NOT cognizant and responsive, as the OP suggests, or that she is inevitably terminal and there is no likelihood she will ever recover. As I said, I don't find this unreasonable and have left instructions to that effect with my own family. I don't like Texa's medical futility law because it DOES leave room for abuse, if doctors operate for the benefit of their profit driven corporate colleagues instead of for the benefit of patients, and because for-profit hospital "ethics committees" will inevitably consider economic arguments, which is why I asked whether the OP can transfer her to another facility and seek additional medical advice.

[salin]

44. but the insurance is still paying - so cost/expense from the hospital's

end shouldn't matter.

Wonder if the ins. co. is communicating something to the hospital that indicates the $ will dry up.

[bettyellen]

61. insurance companies or medicare reps are in constant contact with

all health care providers these days attempting to keep a lid on expenses.
anything expensive like this, where you stay at the facility- they check with the insurance first and stays are generally approved in small increments- there is continuous pressure to get the treatment over with and patient out somehow. they'll want to move her to hospice or a long term care facility and after a certain amount of time, terminate that coverage forcing the patient to spend down their assets and go on medicade.

[elehhhhna]

91. perhaps they want to get rid of their own mistakes.

[Th1onein]

26. They don't care, period.

I went to see her last weekend and the nurse asked us to leave so she could do some "evaluations." I asked my sister is she wanted us to come back in a little while, and she raised up off the pillow and shook her head. The nurse was standing right there, beside her. When we came back, my sister was so drugged on fentanyl she couldn't even focus her eyes and she didn't know that we were even there. I told the nurse who had been in the room with us, when Andrea shook her head yes, to please put on the chart that she had done that and the nurse refused to do it and even said she hadn't seen her do that.

This is absolutely crazy. It is a nightmare that they can do this to people. This is murder. Please, please, someone help us. Please get this on the blogs. Please get some attention for this. George Bush is responsible for the murder of my sister.

[mike_c]

50. you're suggesting that her doctors are conspiring to murder her....

Your family should get a lawyer, quickly.

[Rich Hunt]

72. there is a remarkable lack of humanity

....in the health care system. I experienced this first-hand in the hospital. I saw the apathy when my grandmother was in a nursing home, too.

I'm so sorry about this situation.

[leesa]

13. What were the names of the groups supporting the parents of the Schaivo

family. They are nuts, yes, but they have money and access to publicity and the Schaivo parents recently said they were going to continue their fight against what they felt was euthenasia...it might help you and help point the spotlight at Bush's awful law as well. I don't know which groups they were though. Anyone know?

Otherwise, if you truly believe she has a chance to live and wants to live, keep demanding meetings with the hospital ethics review board and be a real pain in the ass. If it's a county hospital go to the county board of supervisors, if state, contact the state.

[roguevalley]

16. more info, honey. :(

[dogday]

19. I dug up some info

Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation ~ 5562 Central Avenue ~ Suite 2 ~ St. Petersburg, FL 33707
Phone: [phone] ~ Email: [e-mail]

About The Foundation

The Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation, Inc., (TSSF) is a non-profit group dedicated to ensuring the rights of disabled, elderly and vulnerable citizens against care rationing, euthanasia and medical killing.

Incorporated in 2001 to fight for the life of Terri Schindler Schiavo, the clear focus of TSSF now and in the future is to help others avoid future tragedies that reflect what Terri endured.

Therefore, the TSSF has set a course to address the following two areas:

[KharmaTrain]

59. That's The Schindler Website

Hope you're away that's the site you found...the family of Terri who turned her last years into a circus and the life of her husband hell on earth. These aren't the type of people who can help.

[dogday]

80. I posted that information in response to another post

read the post above me, you would see why I posted the information in the first place..

[Jack Rabbit]

14. You are in Texas, right?

Pardon me for taking the liberty to look at your profile.

That's important to point out. There was a story about something like this last year during all the Schiavo hoopla, except that it involved an infant whose mother did not want it to die. The law in Texas gives the hospital the right to pull the plug under these circumstances.

If I recall correctly, the legislation was signed into law by then-Governor G. W. Bush.

One can certainly argue that in Bush's America, the culture of life is one in which artificial persons still have more rights than real people.

This law needs to be rewritten. The authority of whether the plug gets pulled should rest with the patient, if the patient is able to make that decision, or the family if the patient is not.

Meanwhile, we can feel the desperation and pain in your post. You are in or thoughts in your time of trial.

[bunkerbuster1]

68. Sun Hudson

That was the TX infant's name. (Will Pitt mentioned it upthread as well.)

[KarenS]

15. This is terrible and so very sad and wrong.

I really think you should contact Keith Olberman with your story.

I hope you can change the course of this,,,,

:hug:

on edit:
Anderson Cooper of CNN may be an additional choice to contact.

[dogday]

20. Start with calling KPRC news line and then

try to get hold of Marvin Zindler.. If you can post the hospital name, it would help, I will send your story out, but they need more facts....

[dogday]

23. Time To Call The Hospital Everyone Please !!!

St. Luke's Episcopal Health System | 6720 Bertner Avenue | Houston, TX | 77030 USA |



Telephone: [phone]

[donco6]

34. Wait up just a minute.

From the earlier posts, this woman is dying from heart disease. Who's supposed to be "killing her?"

[dogday]

39. Read the post....

The state wants to disconnect her against her wishes..

[Name removed]

49. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

81. this is a grieving family member dogday

i say this respectfully. personally have yet to meet a nurse that would ignore a patient raising body from pillow and communicating with family and heartlessly say they would refuse to put on chart what they saw and compound that by saying they never saw the patient do this.

a grieving and desperate family member.

schiavos family also insisted it was against her wishes.

i am not there, i do not know. just saying

[dogday]

85. These Hospitals deal in dough

that is the bottom line and why this law was enacted.. To declare this death sentence without even seeing the patient is absurd...

[seabeyond]

89. does this sound like something that happens?

that they would give a death sentence to a person, for the sake of money, no doctor, no anyone seeing this person..... just declare death to save money.

i am sorry, but i have not seen that world you have suggested. i see error, i see non perfection, but no.... i have never seen what you are suggesting.

[dogday]

92. Read the link below and you tell me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1698230&mesg_id=1698492

[skids]

46. Everyone is dying from something.

You start dying the day you are born.

But if you put someone in a room and starved them to death you'd still be killing them nonetheless.

[donco6]

53. She's dying of a disease.

Not by withholding treatment. They're disconnecting the extraordinary measures that are NOT contributing to any treatment, except to prolong suffering. I agree with the ethics committee.

[salin]

58. The whole idea of a living will - is to allow the patient a voice,

in either direction. When that voice is not allowed to be considered - that goes both directions as well.

A year ago - during the Schaivo situation - GOP representatives were preparing legislation that would prevent allowing folks to die (ala living wills). When public reaction turned on them per Schaivo that got dropped. But with the desired *by extreme right* pending theocracy - there would be no option to 'pull the plug' - and the wishes of the patient (per living will) would have no consequence.

[donco6]

62. A living will does NOT provide for interminable care.

When a patient is terminal, as is the case here, there is a point at which a doctor has to make an ethical consideration as to whether there is any action that constitutes "treatment". In this case, the ethics committee has already met and decided that - to further prolong her life - is flatly unethical. It's WRONG. It's AGAINST THE OATH. It is DOING HARM to the patient. There is no living will language that would supercede that.

[barbtries]

24. gimme a link

i'll blog it for you

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MelissaB]

36. THE INFO ASKED FOR IS ABOVE

I'm posting this to point people to it.

[roguevalley]

37. start going to nursing homes and hospices and get one to take

her. some people in your shoes in Texas did that and saved their dad. Do it honey and know we love ya.

[laruemtt]

42. seconding the suggestion for hospice

intervention. there must be several in the area. and get a lawyer. today.

[dogday]

45. Also think it is a good idea

I wish you and your sister the best...

[PetraPooh]

54. Thirding suggestion. It clearly says you have 10 days to find

alternative care for her. Why haven't you done this? Hospices would definitely be the right place for someone who is terminal.

[donco6]

56. Hospice will NOT provide the care she's wanting.

Hospice provides palliative and not prolonging care. This woman wants her sister on the respirator forever.

[PetraPooh]

60. So after she dies from the heart condition, still the respirator?

This doesn't seem like what is wanted. Reading through all the posts, it does seem this woman is terminal, just a matter of when and how; not IF.

[donco6]

65. Exactly.

There is no treatment being provided - in fact, hospice would be the BEST option, but her sister doesn't want her "unplugged" (i.e., taken off life support). Hospice does NOT provide life support. So this isn't what she's going to want.

I personally think the sister is wrong.

[Warpy]

29. You need a lawyer

You need the court to step in as her guardian.

Just be aware that the people who are telling you that it is hopeless have seen your sister and concluded that she is not responsive.

This is the Schiavo case all over again. However, getting a lawyer and having the court step in will delay the inevitable. If she has the capacity to respond to someone who is not a family member, then she will and the court will protect her.

[Th1onein]

64. YOU ARE WRONG! HAVE YOU READ MY POSTS AT ALL?

My sister is RESPONSIVE! She is not brain dead. If she were brain dead, I wouldn't have a problem with them withdrawing care. Not a problem at all. My sister is very frightened and is very aware of what is going on here.

This is nothing short of murder.

[SPKrazy]

69. Have You Been Trying To Transfer Her?

out of state even?

[mike_c]

70. is there any treatment for your sister's heart disease...?

A ventilator isn't treatment. Can she be cured, or at least treated to relieve her symptoms? If so, I'd REALLY suggest your family get a lawyer on this quickly. I presume her doctors' position is that she is inevitably terminal. Is that the case? Have you considered a hospice to ease her passing?

[BooScout]

30. Have you considered transferring....

...her out of state to another hospital? Do you have an attorney? If you don't, get one.

[medeak]

63. yes...transfer

have heard of this before...another facility may take her

[laruemtt]

31. is there any way you can get her

out of the hospital and out of the state? of course, then she'd be leaving against medical advice and that's it for insurance coverage.

[Maine-ah]

35. contacts for texas reps...

http://www.failureisimpossible.com/contactcongress/Texas_cong.htm

[Name removed]

43. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

47. You need to videotape her responding to your questions also, shaking her

head, nodding, etc., with date/time stamped video, so you can show it on the news etc. if need be.

[Cobalt Violet]

48. Maybe you can send Micheal Moore your healthcare horror story.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=193

At least it may expose this terrible situation.

[tsuki]

52. Call Randall Terry, Bill Frist, Mel Martinez, Fox News and everyone that

sat in front of Terri Schavio's nursing home. And tell the authorities that you are doing it.

[Blue Diadem]

73. You need a lawyer pronto

From what I understand there was a case in Texas of a man whose family was able to keep him alive by using the court system.

[abluelady]

74. What about Bill Frist

He sure wanted to keep Terry Schaivo alive. He believes in keeping people alive. I would call him as leader of the senate. How could he possibly turn down your plea?

[mike_c]

75. this should be locked....

It's really inappropriate to have this discussion on DU.

[bettyellen]

76. because people disagreed with your statements?

or found your attitude callous or understanding of TX law lacking?

[mike_c]

79. no, because it's a family medical issue that DUers can't advise on...

...and because it's stimulating numerous personal attacks.

on edit: chill.

[bettyellen]

82. there's a rule against seeking medical advice, not this sort of stuff.

so it should be shut down because people were accusing the OP of making stuff up and are ignorant of tx law?

[mike_c]

87. alright, if it's flinging baseless accusations you're interested in...

...I haven't seen you exhibiting much understanding of the TX medical futility law in this thread-- a lot of emotional response to the OP's understandably distraught perspective, but that's about it. Others have asked repeatedly for evidence of the rest of the family's views, for the doctor's views on the patient's prognosis, and whether there has been any effort to transfer her to another facility. Those questions have been ignored while the OP continues to whip the emotional frenzy up even higher. Something doesn't pass the smell test here.

[bettyellen]

90. i saw the prognosis here, i dunno how you missed it. you gotta look harder

and i know when someones in that bad of shape there is no point, let alone chance, another hospital will take them in. with a respiperator, you won't even get to a hospice.
it would be a very rare thing for a place to accept this transfer for two reasons, if insurance doesn't want to pay anymore, no one will take her, and mortality stats are hurt by any facility that will take her. i have met with enough hospital commitees to know everything they do approve has to be first approved by the insurance company, if not, they shove medicade forms in your face. like it or not, these decisions are financial before ethics comes in.
and if the patient is cognizant, what does any of the family's view have to do with it?
but if she's not, you are calling the OP a liar, therefore causing the flamefest. .

[ananda]

88. Sometimes it's just hard to..

.. let go. No one wants to die, nor do
we want to see a loved one die, especially
if she still has the ability to express love,
as Andrea Clark does.

This woman should not be forced to die if
she can still express her wishes not to, and
express love towards her family.

This case is not at all similar to Sciavo's or
Hudson's.

Sue

[PetraPooh]

83. I agree and add . . .

also because it is full of emotions and few facts. Many have reasonably asked about what has been done in the 10 day period, but no answers come. The only answers recieved relate to the patients apparent wishes, brief patient history, and the poster's emotional outcry for media coverage. Before supporting media coverage for a story like this, one should be able to have confidence that SOME other avenues have been pursued.

Edited to add: this was supposed to be in response to #104 not #101, my bad.

[Swamp Rat]

77. .

:hug:

[Moderator]

93. Locking.....

I am locking this thread. There is plenty
of good advice in this thread but I am afraid
that it is starting to go out of control.

To the OP: We hope that everything goes
well for you, your sister and your family.