Help: Gay People

[Jack_Dawson]

So I was in this bar last night talking to an otherwise nice enough girl when she mentions how she has "worship" tomorrow. Of course a couple of vodka tonics later I can't help myself and I say, "do you believe gay people are born that way, or they choose that lifestyle?" Of course she went on to tell me how it's a choice and of course I told her I highly doubt anyone would "choose" to get their ass kicked growing up and discriminated against their entire lives.

Then she breaks out that "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" and also confided that her brother is gay. I asked her how that went over in her family and apparently not very well (surprise!). Anyway she started quoting scripture "Man shall not lie down with man" or something (I was buzzed and can't really remember).

Then I'm watching this thing on HBO where Rosie O'Donnell organizes some gay cruise and they pull into Nassau, Bahamas and there are all these black folks holding signs quoting this scripture or that scripture and it seriously made me nauseated that people hate in the name of Jesus. Especially growing up Catholic where I was taught that Jesus loves everybody.

So my question is...next time I get into it (and there will be many next times) can someone give ME some scripture to throw back at these imbeciles? My first instinct is to punch them in the face but of course that's not very "Christian-like" so if any bible thumpers can give me some good ammo I'd appreciate it. Thx.

JD

[Dogmudgeon]

1. The First Stone thing

Works every time.

--p!

[marbuc]

7. Ah, but the "first stone" defense implies homosexuality is a sin.

which I would disagree with.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. I don't think it matters

When dealing with the ignorant, point out their ignorance, even obliquely. After all, it isn't you doing the judging, and you are under no obligation to judge homosexuality, adultery, or even mopery with intent to flout.

The "first stone" parable isn't about the "sinner", it's about the person who reads or hears it. If these people think gayness is a sin, so be it. Just make sure to remind them that their arrogance is also a sin. You can be certain that they'll be thinking about the nature of sin, and their own human stupidity, in very short order.

--p!

[Jigarotta]

9. yep, that's the one.

if I can tell a 'joke', hope I don't offend.

When Jesus spoke these words, 'You, without sin, cast the first stone'.
he gets one hurled at him right between the eyes, and says:

'Mother, sometimes you really piss me off.'

[ruggerson]

2. Ask her if she thinks if divorced people should be banned from remarrying

She will respond, of course not.

At which point, you can point out that Jesus forbade divorce, but never mentioned gays, so doesn't it make more sense to ban divorced people from a second marriage?

If we're going to follow the bible and all.

[Jack_Dawson]

5. I like that one...

Then how come that kooky bunch in Kansas is always saying "God hates fags" because the "Bible says so"

[MuseRider]

11. Cause they are kooky

no other reason.

[BrklynLiberal]

26. They are not merely kooky. They are criminally insane.

[marbuc]

13. I think you answered your own question

eom

[BR_Parkway]

27. Actually, Jesus said divorce and remarry was adultery, which is one

of the Big 10 No No's

[liberalhistorian]

3. You can tell them that the New Testament clearly

shows that Jesus was far more concerned that the poor, the sick, the elderly, and the needy were given help and compassion than he was about gays. The NT rarely discusses homosexuality except to refer to those who commit "sexual immorality", which doesn't specifically mention gays but likely refers to adultery, premarital sex, etc., also. Ask them what they did today to help those who needed it. That'll shock them into silence.

[Klukie]

57. So true, so very true.

I have this debate with the inlaws every few months or so. I can only hope to make them see their hypocrasy someday.

[land of the free]

66. great reply. here's what I use

I'm gonna refer to your suggestion, liberalhistorian, when I run into this topic again (and it often comes up when I discuss politics with conservative acquaintences and friends).

I've often used this reply, with success:

The bible tells me that it is God's duty to judge people, not mine. The bible tells me to live in Jesus' image, and that means I'm supposed to "love one another" as he has loved me/follow the "golden rule", etc.

I haven't had one Christian argue this point with me.

They often try to push the discussion toward "choice" and "sin" and even a suggestion of "mental illness" (WTF???), or an interpretation of bible verses. It's hard to not take their bait, as I find that BS extremely infuriating. I know there are ways to refute their points, but it ends up in my trying to reason with someone who may be completely immune to facts and reason. However, I just keep steering the conversation toward my point, and usually they change the subject. There doesn't seem to be anything they can nitpick in my argument, and I just keep referring to it as one of the key themes in the New Testament.

[converted_democrat]

4. It's not scripture, but I can tell you that Jesus never uttered a word

about gays, or abortion.. He never speaks of it in any of his sermons, or in any of his stories.. I would think if it was that big of a deal to him he would have made a point in taking a stance, or by preaching about it in one way or another..

[Hissyspit]

41. Yup.

[Warpy]

6. Judge not lest ye be judged

should do it.

Loving the sinner means just that, no exceptions, no conditions.

Hating the sin means not doing the sin. It doesn't mean hating sinners.

That's something a lot of religious types just never understand.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Just ask them these ten questions:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21-7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev. 1-9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination -- Lev. 11:10 -- it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality; I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
(Lev. 20:14)

[Jack_Dawson]

14. OMG are those for real?

No wonder I fell off the church wagon 19 years ago...

[marbuc]

16. On the merits of this post

I am nominating the thread for the "greatest page". Very well done, and quite funny.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Not original -- I found it someplace, don't remember where, kept it

for discussions just like this.

[Greyhound]

31. It is directly from President Bartlett in a scene in the 2nd or 3rd

season of West Wing. He excoriated a RW Fundie "radio personality", transparently based on Laura Schlessinger, for her anti-gay statements and subsequent hiding behind "scripture" to deflect responsibility for her heinous statements. It was one of the best scenes in the whole series.

[RB TexLa]

40. Yes it was, and right after he told her that everyone stands when

he enters the room.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I would say

Judge not lest ye be judged.

The passage she quoted, btw, was from Leviticus. It is really talking about sodomizing of prisoners of war, I believe-check with a Talmudic scholar to make sure. I have read somewhere that this is one interpretation. Anyway, also in Leviticus it says it is an abomination (same terminology as for gay sex) to wear clothes of mixed fibers or to eat meat and milk at the same meal. Might want to ask the gal if her church forbids eating cheeseburgers.

The other verses they love to quote come from Paul's letter to the Corinthians; it is quoted out of context, as the rest of that chapter talks about female prostitutes and sex in general getting in the way of one's spiritual development.

Finally, you may simply ask what words of Jesus Himself condemns gays. There aren't any.

[serryjw]

12. Did you ask her HOW she felt about her

her brother? Did SHE think he should not be happy? I have talked to thousands in the last 5 years and I believe that she is a lost cause and I stopped having these conversations. What they really believe is that "Jesus loves everyone" and it is the ACT of homosexuality that is a sin. First, no one's sex life is any ones elses business. Second, I don't think ANYONE should live a life with out love.

[marbuc]

24. Well, I think some people deserve a life without love

Dick Cheney heads my list.

[serryjw]

30. Dicky Cheney does LOVE

power, money and influence

[Olney Blue]

61. Which explains his inability to be an advocate for gay rights.

[Ezlivin]

15. Tell her to eat shit - it's BIBLICAL!

Ezekiel 4:12 - "And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with human excrement in their sight."

Fresh, hot, biblical shit cakes. That's what she should be eating. Unless she's already full of shit.....

[ruggerson]

18. "Fresh, hot, biblical shit cakes" - lol n/t

[nickyt]

22. Yeah, I'm so stealing it! (for what, I'm not quite sure yet!) Thanks ez!!

[kansasblue]

17. Luke 16:18 Mark 10:2-12 John 8:7

Luke 16:18
Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Mark 10:2-12:
And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to put her away." 5 But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. 11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."


John 8 7

"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."

[Ioo]

53. FIRST: Sin is sin, and god sees no diffrence in them.

So murder and thieft are the same degree of sin in the eyes of god...

When you try to argue what is going on in the bible, it is far better to point out all the faults of the person you are arguing with that they are not following in the bible.

Are they divorced? Are they females? Are they waring pants?

Once you can draw that they are breaking the "bible" then you can say something to the effect, "You seem to have your orn sins you should be dealing with, not pointing out others" I have done this a lot, I have made a few cry, and many just walk away. You have to know what the bible says if you are going to do it.

So I like Matt 19:9

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (Mat 19:9)

Another few good ones

Chicks can not wear pants, see Deuteronomy 22:5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

The bible states that Men can not have long hair, women can not dress like men, divoce is a sin, and so on...

[William769]

20. Just use the New Testament.

[kansasblue]

23. Agreed.. Christ is in the new testament.

[Lerkfish]

51. Be careful, though, Paul's letters are in the NT as well.

taken out of chronistic context, fundies use his timelocked social mores as gospel (forgive the pun).
If we followed Paul to the letter, no woman would have her hair cut or speak in church.

[Ms. Toad]

21. Here's a portion of the statement of my faith community

"We recognize that there are passages in the Bible that condemn promiscuous and idolatrous homosexual acts; but we find nothing that addresses the question of committed, loving, monogamous same-gender relationships. We have discovered that when we offer unconditional love it becomes easier for us to open ourselves to God's leadings and to have the courage to let go of our personal desires and idols and move into more faithful obedience to God. Our task is to learn how to love the way Jesus loved his disciples and asks us to love one another. We direct each other to the law God has written on each of our hearts.

Members of our Meeting know many same-gender couples that very clearly are married, including members of our own Meeting. They have made commitments to love and cherish each other in riches and in poverty, in sickness and in health, till by death they are parted. We see many of these couples raising children with love and wisdom, and we see the fruits of their obedience to God: "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things." (Gal 5:22 NRSV)"

http://clevelandfriendsmeeting.org/issue%20one.html

[marmar]

25. Is there some significance to "all these black folks" in the Bahamas?

Would it have been less offensive if it were "all these white folks" holding signs?

[rickrok66]

29. gays in the Bible

As others have said, she quoted from the Book of Leviticus in the Old Testament. Chapter 18 covers all sexual relations like it is not too cool to have sex with your brother' wife.

The Book of Leviticus was written as a rule book or a field manual for the priests of Levite. These rules were meant to show the Hebrews that they were chosen by God and distinguished from other tribes and cults at that time.

If you want to obey the book by the exact word, it doesn't outlaw lesbianism, just sex between men. So ask her if all lesbians have a special place in heaven.

Show her the rest of the book - like where is the Jubilee Year - it is supposed to happen every 50 years and all debts are erased and all prisoners are pardoned. The Catholic Church started this is the Middle Ages and it evolved into indulgences (days out of purgatory). I have brought that one up to fundies before and they cannot deal with it. There is a British group at Jubilee.org and try anglocatholicsocialism.org that uses that part of the Bible to work for social justice and erase the debt to the Third World.

Ask her about Lot and his daughters. After Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, Lot's daughters that they were the last people on earth so they got their father drunk and had sex with him so they could pregnant. Family values.

[ecstatic]

54. I was wondering the same thing

After all, Bahamas is a predominantly Black island, from my understanding. So isn't it more fitting (and less offensive) to just say all the Christian Bahamians were protesting? :shrug:

[Jack_Dawson]

58. Just painting a picture...

Hate in the name of Jesus cuts across racial lines

[kweerwolf]

32. One of my favorite responses to anti-gay Christians ...

... is from "An Open Letter to Reggie White" by Rev. William Sloane Coffin. It was Coffin who helped football player/preacher Reggie White see a different perspective and recant his earlier homophobic beliefs. Here's the text of his letter:

Dear Reggie White,

I've only heard good things about you, and nobody for a moment doubts your greatness as an athlete. But if your words to the (Wisconsin) legislature this week were accurately reported, I'm troubled, and in particular about what you said about homosexuality.

I write to you as one ordained minister to another. As the Bible is the founding document of every Christian church in the world, it can't be taken seriously enough. But if you take the Bible seriously, you can't take it literally - not all of it.

For instance, in the book of Leviticus, it is a "toevah" - an abomination - not only to eat bacon, sausage and ribs, it is sinful even to touch the skin of a dead pig. If you thought that insight valid today, would you be playing football?

Homosexuality is not a big issue for Biblical writers. In the 66 books of Scripture (71 if you're Roman Catholic), only seven verses refer to homosexual behavior. Some time ago, I picked up a pamphlet entitled "What did Jesus say about homosexuality?" Opening it, I came across two blank pages. Closing it, I read on the back, "That's right, nothing."

St. Paul thought all men were straight. He assumed all homosexual activity was done by heterosexuals.

This assumption is true as well of Old Testament writers, which means that all the Biblical passages used to flay gays and lesbians have really nothing whatsoever to say about constitutionally gay people in genuinely loving relationships.

As Christians, we don't honor the higher truth we find in Christ by ignoring truths found elsewhere. I'm impressed that the American Psychological Association does not consider homosexuality an illness, and that natural scientists have discovered homosexuality in mammals, birds and insects. Clearly, God is more comfortable with diversity than we are!
In my experience, a lot of people talk in the abstract about homosexuality being a sin, but without first-hand knowledge of gays and lesbians. Wouldn't it be better to talk with rather than about homosexuals?

I write you all this in large part because today the "gay agenda" has replaced the "communist threat" as the battering ram of reactionary politics. It grieves me to see you put your considerable muscle behind such a blunt instrument of prejudice.

We live in a land of great prejudice and you as an African American and I as a white man have had to overcome the differences we have invented about one another. It is urgent that men and women, gays and straights, do the same, for as James Baldwin described us, "Each of us, helplessly and forever contains the other - We are a part of each other."

--Rev. William Sloane Coffin, Lawrence University

[marbuc]

37. I didn't know Reggie White had recanted

Is there a published statement to this effect? I'm not doubting that it occured, but I'm pleasantly surprised.

[kweerwolf]

52. Here's a link to an MSNBC story about Reggie's later years ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6756065/

I had only known about Reggie through some of his homophobic statements and had a very low view of him. I was glad to hear he was moving away from his earlier positions and wish he would have lived longer to be a voice of reason who could have reached more people.

Here are a couple of statements from the article:

White began to question the whole structure of organized religion. He felt that the money he raised could have gone directly to help people who needed it rather than to paying munificent salaries to church leaders and building ostentatious buildings.

<snip>

Had he lived, he would have found that he needed to learn Greek, the language of much of the New Testament, as well. I have no doubt he would have learned that, too, if that was what it would take to complete his quest.

He learned a lot in the time he had. White has in the past couple of years said he greatly regrets the statements he made about homosexuals and about god directing him to sign with the Packers. He knows he made them out of ignorance only because he dared to challenge his own beliefs.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

48. Sadly, Reverend Coffin passed away very recently:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/hc-wscoffin0413.artapr13,0,4883266.story?coll=sfla-newsnation-front

[SmokingJacket]

33. "Love one another"

Book of John, over and fricking over again.

Like John 13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

[kevinbgoode]

34. Hon, when she pulls that Leviticus crap on you . . .

you compliment her first on the clothing of mixed threads she is wearing (also against Leviticus) and ask her if she's ever helped stone an adulterer or a child who talks back to an adult. Then you mention, quite casually, that you think the Leviticus verse she quoted is kinda funny...since it is obvious that a man cannot "lay" with a man in the same way that a man lays with a woman. Then, as you chuckle at how absurd that verse is, smile and ask if that means guys can't have any sleepovers growing up or share bunks at camp?

[kevinbgoode]

35. Oops...I almost forgot my favorite

I love to point out that since God made Man in his own image, and Man engaged in some kind of intercourse with Adam to create Eve (the old rib theory) . . .well, obviously God himself established the first homosexual act. . .hehehehehehehe. That usually makes their heads explode.

[Bill McBlueState]

36. fighting scripture with scripture?

Naw.

How about this: "We should make sure everyone has equal rights under the law, without regard to what some ancient book has to say. Under the Constitution, we have no other choice."

[OneBlueSky]

38. just ask one question: What did Jesus have to say about homosexuality? . .

Answer: Absolutely nothing . . .

[cynatnite]

39. Ask the person if they own any slaves...

When they say no, ask them why.

When they say because it's wrong...

explain that in the bible slavery is accepted.

If society can evolve to the point of outlawing slavery, why can't society evolve to accept homosexuality?

[NMMNG]

42. First off,

That "Love the sinner, hate the sin" garbage is not in the Bible. So the next time some smug fundie spews that to you ask them to quote the chapter and verse--they won't be able to.



As to actual scripture (I'm an atheist, not a Bible-thumper, but I know something about the book):

Leviticus 11
6 the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; 7 and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.


10 But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you. (Shellfish is an abomination-just like homosexuality :o )



1 Timothy 2
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.


Leviticus 19
19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.
(Those poly-cotton blends are sinful)




Deuteronomy 22

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. ....
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.





Exodus 21

15 "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.

17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.




Deuteronomy 13]/b]
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.



Genesis 17
14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.


Exodus 35
2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. 3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.


Leviticus 21
16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary.



Romans 16
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. (If only they would do this, for then we wouldn't have to put up with them)



There are plenty more, but I've gone on long enough for this post.





_____________________________________________________________________________________________________




Look what I came across. This might give some insight as to where the fundies get one of their staunchest, most obnoxious notions from:

1 Corinthians
15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment

Gah!

[cboy4]

43. I'm actually fascinated why you decided to ask her

about a controversial gay issue -- especially knowing she's a church lady! lol

I mean, I certainly admire your stance concerning gay people...and I don't know if you were interested in perhaps going out with her, but talk about a potential "deal-breaker" debating someone's personal religious views during your first conversation!! :)

[Jack_Dawson]

59. I knew I wasn't into her...

so that's why I fanned the flames. If she was super hot I might've shelved my reservations. :beer:

[cboy4]

60. LOL!

[Warren DeMontague]

44. I'm not gay, but I'll tell you one thing;

you need to find a cooler fucking bar to hang out in.

Fo Sho'.

[ima_sinnic]

45. ask how the person can worship a god who is a rapist

... a god who impregnates a virgin without her knowledge or consent is not the kind of god I admire.

Even when I was a little kid this myth did not sit well with me though I couldn't put my finger on the reason why, then.

Of course, it's nothing new in mythology--the Greek and Roman gods were great rapists and womanizers too.

[hedgehog]

67. Consent was given

Read the Magnificat.

[ima_sinnic]

72. oh, please summarize

I don't have time to read accounts of people "giving consent" to mythological beings.

[hedgehog]

73. I don't think so

I don't have time to discuss this with people who casually toss off insults without knowing anything about the subject.

[BigBearJohn]

46. There was an open letter to Dr. Laura about gays and the Bible. Here it is

"Dear Dr. Laura,


Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.


I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.


a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?


c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.


d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?


e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?


f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?


g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?


i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?


j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)


I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.


Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.


Your devoted disciple and adoring fan."

[undeterred]

47. The law of love transcends all else.

I used to be where she is now and I didn't think I was a hateful bigot. What changed me was actually becoming friends with a couple of gay people (1 man, 1 woman) who were patient enough to listen to my views and then share with me their own painful experiences of trying to be straight when they weren't. In the end it wasn't the friendships that changed me, but the loss of those friendships. Love the sinner hate the sin does not work, because the person still feels hated, condemned, unloved. I hurt these people. It was more than 15 years ago and I still regret it.

The true mark of a Christian is love. "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John 13:33-35) That is scripture, and that is the most important thing. It is not "love" to condemn or exclude homosexuals or deny their rights. I don't claim to have an explanation as to why people are gay or straight, but I know that as a Christian it is wrong for me to judge or condemn anyone else, and right for me to love and accept them. The law of love transcends all else.

I am now working to fight against the constitutional ban on gay marriage, because I think I can talk to Christians who think the way this girl does.

[knitter4democracy]

49. Chances are she's quoting St. Paul.

It's very simple: ask them what the two greatest commandments are. They know them but ignore them.

Jesus was asked by the Pharisees what the greatest commandment was, and he said that the greatest was the Schma (Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your body, and all your strength). He followed that up with the second greatest commandment: Love your neighbor as yourself. He was asked who our neighbors are, and he followed that up the parable of the Good Samaritan. (Matthew 22 and Luke 10:25-37)

Ask them who the Samaritans were in that day and age. Answer: they were the most reviled people by the Jews as former Jews who had mixed another religion in with the worship of God. They were hated and reviled as less than human. Jesus said that the Samaritan was their neighbor.

If Jesus were alive today, he'd tell that story using a gay married couple that's HIV+ with a couple of kids.

If they start spouting other stuff, just ask them if that overrides the second greatest commandment. They won't be able to answer that well. Just keep pressing them on it and asking what they're doing to the least of these, for many are those who will say to God, "Lord, Lord," who won't enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Oh, and asking them about the Seven Woes is usually good, too. (Matthew 23)

[Lerkfish]

50. there are very few scriptures relating to homosexuality in the new testame

and they exist not in christ's teachings but in Paul's letters. They refer mainly to a particular temple cult that may or may not have been largely based on homosexuality, which Paul says to avoid, but he says to avoid other heterosexual churches or doctrines as well. Paul was a strict one for reinforcing existing social mores of that time period...remember these were not necessarily intended to be part of a holy text but were instead letters written to various other churches and missionaries.
Paul also provides the other homosexual reference in the NT, where he says something like man is not meant to lie down with man. But keep in mind, he also said it was better to be completely celibate, and that women should never cut their hair. I think the problem with fundies is that they seem incapable of viewing scripture in chronistic context.

Probably your best response, if they are fundies, is to ask whether the old testament should be followed to the letter, or did Christ bring forth a new covenant? If they answer correctly, that the old law was meant to convict, but the new law was to forgive, then you are in good shape.
If, however, they insist everything, even the old testament must be read and enforced literally, then ask why they didn't go and have themselves stoned for touching their mother's hand while she was on her period.


:)

[Ioo]

55. Good list of Pro-Gay Bible and Shut-up scripture

Job 20:4-5
4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
5 That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the
hypocrite but for a moment?

Job 27:4
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.

Job 27:8
8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained,
when God taketh away his soul?

Prov 11:9
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through
knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Matt 7:1
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Luke 6:46
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luke 6:31
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.

Luke 6:36
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matt 5:43-44
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully
use you, and persecute you;

Matt 19:19
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.

Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luke 6:27
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them
which hate you,

John 13:34
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another;
as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Gal 5:14
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Thes 3:12
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward
another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

1Thes 4:8
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath
also given unto us his holy Spirit.

1 Pet 2:17
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

1 Pet 3:8
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another,
love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

I Jn 3:11
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we
should love one another.

I Jn 3:14
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love
the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

I Jn 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of
his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us
commandment.

I Jn 4:7
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one
that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

I Jn 4:11
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

I Jn 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God
dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

I Jn 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and
God in him.

I Jn 4:20
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he
love God whom he hath not seen?

[Jack_Dawson]

62. Awesome.

Thank you.

[BigBearJohn]

63. Superb! I sent this out to all my Christian friends. Thanks!

[Smarmie Doofus]

56. "Despite the Christian preaching of love for all,....

... even for one's enemies, the prevailing mentality down through the centuries penalized minorities and those who were in any way 'different.' "

from the Vatican "Commission on Religious Relations with the Jews", 1998.

It's not scripture, exactly, but if she has any neurons firing at all... and from the sound of it, that's in doubt, frankly..... she may come to question why she chooses to think the way she does.

If that doesn't work, get her a copy of "The Nature of Prejudice" by Gordon Allport, Harvard psychologist. Get the whole argument out of the scripture dealie and into an arena where it belongs.

[UDenver20]

64. Jesus Spoke about Gay People = ZERO times...

Except when he was talking about loving thy neighbor... when he was talking about everyone else, regardless of any sins.... Period.

The part about "Man lying down with man" is Leviticus.... Corinthians also speaks about homosexuality as well.... FOR CHRISTIANS (you know, the whole purpose of the New Testimant - and the whole focus of CHRISTIANITY)...) those people like to quote the old testiment a whole lot... BUT ONLY when it fits their objectives... Paul's letters to the Romans (1:26-28) mention homosexuality as well, but shit - he spoke about lying and cheating and adultury and blasphemy a whole lot more then he did about gay people...

[Jack_Dawson]

65. Thank you, Friend

I will put that in my Knowledge Folder.

These people make me crazy. To me itz no different than "Blacks belong in the back of the bus"

JD

[hedgehog]

68. I think Paul's mention of homosexuality also referred to

unequal relationships or exploitative ones such as a master and slave. It was closer to what we would call child molestation than a healthy gay life style. (I hate putting those two things in the same post, but I want to be clear that he was talking about one and not the other.)

[hedgehog]

70. If Jesus didn't have more to teach us, why did he send the

Paraclete (AKA Holy Spirit)? It's been two steps forward, one step back, but Christians have gradually learned to recognize that a lot of old customs were sinful including slavery, subjugation of women, racism, etc. Maybe now we're finally ready to recognize with the grace of God that homophobia is a sin?

[FredScuttle]

69. Ask her what she thinks of the life of Jesus of Nazareth

Grown man who hangs out solely with 12 other men and won't touch the one woman in the pack. He's a fanook!

[mopinko]

71. if they believe the old testament, but not the teachings of jesus

tell them that makes them jewish.
seriously, they jesus freaks that go around talking about the 10 commandments and leviticus, but ignore the beatitudes, and just about everything else that jesus says are the worst kind of morons.