Duke Rape Case: Facts and Theories

[ShaneGR]

Rape cases are difficult, because we all want rapists to go to jail, but that doesn't mean that a rape case is guilty until proven innocent either. Allegations of rape are SERIOUS, a conviction means long prison terms and lifelong "sexual offender" tags. Thousands of rape allegations have been found to be misguided (got the wrong guy). Rape is second only to murder in terms of heinous crimes in my opinion. It's a sick act. And should be punished whenever proven. I repeat, when proven.

But that's the thing, it has to be proven. Fortunately there are many ways to prove a rape occured. Eye-witnesses other than the victim, even those not involved but who may have seen the victim enter a room with other people. DNA and other Biological collection. The victims own recollection. Photographs of injuries sustained.

So a case has to be proven, and you have to look at the facts (At least reported as fact) as they come in.




FACTS:

Victim said several white Duke Lacrosse players, the victims is black, forced her into a bathroom and raped her during a party hosted by team members.

Alleged victim was taken to a hospital for rape kit upon questioning, she was picked up by police fairly quickly and presumably had not showered or bathed. Presumably I repeat, big question.

Every member of the Duke Lacrosse team submitted DNA samples to State Authorities EXCEPT for the lone black member of the team. All of the players tested negative for DNA found on the body of the victim during her rape kit examination.

Victim claimed bruises on her body were caused by Rape, but according to those associated with the defense teams, time stamped photos show the victim entering the home with abrasians to her legs.

Defense also says victim arrived at party extremely drunk. Victim is found passed out in someone elses car in a commercial parking lot an unknown distance from the party. Responding officer radios into HQ stating that he had found a passed out woman in a vehicle not belonging to the woman in the car. Officer offers his opion at this time that the woman is passed out from drinking alcohol without speaking to the woman. The call had originally been made by an employee of the business' parking lot. According to reports, neither the police or the hospital the victim is taken to perform a test for alcohol on the victim.

Victim has prior conviction for stealing car and leading police on chase. Victim is also charged with attempting to run over or hit an officer who has exited his vehicle during that past incident. She was highly intoxicated at that time.

Victim was an exotic dancer hired by a team member to perform at the party. This does NOT mean it's ok to rape exotic dancers, but it's a big part of the case, she was hired to perform erotic dancing, possibly lap dancing, at the party.

Victim arrived at party with another dancer, who claims she was called a racial slur (Presumably the N word), and said she feared for her safety and left the party without the victim. This second dancer was not assaulted.




Now, none of the above facts means that the victim was not raped that evening. But it does place serious doubt on whether the victim was raped by a Duke Lacrosse team member. This doesn not mean she was not though, just raises serious doubts. Based on what has been released to this point we could come to a number of theories.





Theories:

Victim was raped by Lacrosse Team members (Or mix of team and non-team) who all wore condoms and did not pass hair samples on to the victim. OR the victim inadvertanty destroyed the DNA of the team members on accident by cleaning herself. Upon leaving the scene of the crime being very confused, tired, injured, and in shock she staggered into a convenience stores parking lot and climbed into the first car she found and passed out. Victim may have also been drinking at the time, compounding her shock and confusion.

Victim was raped BEFORE she arrived at the party. Photos taken upon her entrance are said to indicate injury to her legs, she is also said to appear intoxicated upon her entrance. This might mean she was simply dazed from being raped before she showed up.

Victim was raped at the Lacrosse team party, but not my team members, she was raped by other people at the party. This hasn't been reported on, was this a team only party? Some white males (Victim states multiple aggressors) not affiliated with the team but friends of the team members? Entirely possible.

The victim and the second dancer arrived at the party extremely intoxicated and were not greeted warmly. They were threatened with racial slurs and possible physical violence. The victim and second dancer (Were they together all night or met before entering?) were so intimidated by their reception that they fled the scene seperately, but the victim was intercepted outside of the party by a group of men not present at the party they had already left and was forced into someone elses house. Because the victim may have been drinking heavily, she has trouble recalling the exact timeline.

The victim is a victim of alcoholism. She drinks on a regular basis and is very troubled when she drinks too much. She blacks out from her drinking sometimes, having no recollection or control over her actions during the times she has had too much to drink. The victim had been drinking for many hours the evening in question and it's possible under those circumstances that the victim has been falling down drunk and had injured herself from her falling. Victim and the second dancer were sent away by the party or those who hired them due to their appearance, race, or drinking too much upon their arrival.

Victim was found in someone elses car in a parking lot. It is entirely possible that the victim had too much to drink after a long night and simply passed out in the first car she could get into her. Victim has been previously convicted of stealing a car and possible vehicular assault on police officer after long car chase. Perhaps the victim panicked knowing this would be a second conviction involving her in someone elses car?




Combine any of those theories with any other theory and you could find the truth. But it's up to the defense in any case to defend their client. It's a fair system.

[Chomp]

1. I think

the most disturbing aspect of all this is how an on-going criminal investigition can allow itelf become the subejct of shopping mall gossip and blog hysteria.

What happened to the pinciple of sub judice in the American justice system? When the hell did someone decide that that was a bad idea? Where is the repect for habeus corpus? Innocent until proven guilty? Disclosure?

It renders any notion of a fair trial absolutley laughable.

[ShaneGR]

2. That's the problem in this case....

The DA hasn't released ANY information to date.

[BrownOak]

139. No information, just lots of speculation

The DA has stated in public that he is confident a rape occurred. He has stated in public that the team had put up a wall of silence because nobody was coming forward to testify that the dancer was raped in the house. Check out these comments:

"I would like to think that somebody who was not in the bathroom has the human decency to call up and say, 'What am I doing covering up for a bunch of hooligans?' " Nifong said. "I'd like to be able to think that there were some people in that house that were not involved in this and were as horrified by it as the rest of us are."

So no, the DA hasn't stepped up and released information - perhaps because all he has right now is the allegation from the accuser and the results of the medical exam - but he has been very vocal in stating that he believes the players are guilty.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

149. DOES ANYONE HAVE FACTS ON ALL THE DAILY RAPES IN IRAQ?

the republicans knew this wold happen when they sent our women into combat with convicted criminals because they're afraid of political repercussions if they start the draft! I've seen a few articles by BBC and other foreign news sources about US female GI's being raped by our own troops. does anyone have a current story?
http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,967838_1,00.jpg

[Always Learning]

163. Well, Pravda in the US

Well, this has been a bit of education on how DU works. Many messages deleted by a moderator (with a link to the rules) who leaves in such insight by BettyEllen as "Eat sh*t" (Post #122) and several others where she refers to those whose opinions differ from hers as "sh*t", "crap", and "eat sh*t" again. Yet I note that the posts that, quite rationally, note that she's "nuts" and that lurkers would probably favor other's opinions if they looked at everything objectively, well, those messages have been deleted. As a newcomer, I find it interesting and disconcerting. But, I'm guessing I will not be here long, voluntarily or otherwise. But, really, this type of censorship in favor of selected posters should be of concern. To ShaneGR, you did good to unbiased readers.

[Neil Lisst]

166. you're learning fast

here's how it works:

Those who think the team did it are allowed to be as rude as they want, because ... well, because they'll get mad if they don't get to.

But don't let anyone say any like comments to them, oh no! That would be against the rules.

You're learning quick. There are a handful of people here who specialize in turning a thread into a flame war, then alerting the moderators to do something about all the posters they have offended. If they can't sink it with nasty comments at other posters, they'll sink it by making it a flame war.

And that's why some progressives aren't progressives at all, they're dogmatics who adhere to a set of beliefs - theirs, and theirs alone.

[Marie26]

186. And

That's true in every thread, on every issue, on every side of every issue.

[Neil Lisst]

187. what I've observed

is that some posters who have what they would call far left values tend to attack other posters with namecalling

[Marie26]

188. yes really

GD is a flame-fest. Both sides will line up to yell at each other & the one that screams the loudest wins. Some pro-Duke people have posted incredibly inflammatory & rude comments on other threads that were allowed to stand. What gets deleted seems to depend mostly on who's moderating on that day. Whether it bothers you mostly depends on which side you are on. It just bothers you right now because you feel your "side" is the one being picked on. I like DU, but the moderation sometimes drives me nuts. And that's ALWAYS true.

ETA- since you've now changed your post. No kidding? Liberal posters will attack each other here with name-calling? You can observe that after about 5 minutes here. Some people will use flames & name-calling when facts or debate ends; and that is also true in every thread, on every issue, on every side of every issue. "Far-leftists" do it, "moderates" do it, even "DLC"ers do it; it's got less to do w/ideology & more to do w/personality.

[Neil Lisst]

189. shhhh, look like we're talking about something else

I start with the strong presumption that other posters are not racist, sexist, homophobic, corporatist xenophobes, and if they disagree with me, it's likely that isn't the reason.

I expect others to give that same consideration.

[Marie26]

190. Good luck with that!

That's a pretty good poilcy. I try to never call other posters names, because I don't know where people are coming from, & it's difficult to tell from a single post what someone's entire life philosophy is. It's a cheap shortcut sometimes to just insult someone rather than actually debating or engaging them. It's often sort of a way to quickly dismiss someone rather than listening to them. That said, however, sometimes posts truly are obviously sexist or racist. Should that not be called out? I don't know, it's a hard line to draw, but in general I agree that the best policy is to assume that people have good intentions, until proven otherwise. On any side, a little courtesy & respect can go a long way. (I wonder if we'll be deleted now? lol.)

[bettyellen]

5. as much as people complain about this on behalf of the team, their lawyers

are guiltiest of all. 90% of what i hear people quoting is the defense teams' spin.

[bettyellen]

3. why her prior scrapes with the law and not the teams?

why not give the percentage of falsely reported rapes (somewhere around 2%) instead of making it sound so common?
what about the news reports that the photos weren't time stamped accurately? and that most of the time (70-80%) there won't be DNA involved in prosecuting rapes, when you make it sound the opposite it true?
you do realise that most of your "facts" came from the players' defense team, right? and they are more guilty than anyone as trying this in the media- and wow it seems to be working too, if you are any indication.
so, i know you meant to be unbiased, but you're not doing so well.

[ShaneGR]

6. Ermmmm, I presented what has been reported....

You do realize all that would be needed for a quick arrest would be a picture lineup. "Could you identify you're attackers from this group of photographs??" You seem to think I'm "against" the victim when all I'm doing is pointing out what has been reported. And btw, I didn't just point out her "prior scrapes with the law." I wrote out a pretty detailed description of everything.

[bettyellen]

7. I also presented what's been reported. You seemed to be missing lots of

facts that don't make the boys look so good. It really deserved some correction.
You can correct your OP if you don't want to seem biased against the accuser. Because right now, it's pretty slanted.
as was this last comment.

[ShaneGR]

8. "The boys?"

Do you mean the Lacrosse team? They are men, and if some of them are guilty of rape, then they deserve to go to prison and be labeled for the rest of their lives, as I said. But that doesn't mean you ignore the facts as they come, blindly convicting anyone and everyone of rape whenever an accusation has taken place.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ShaneGR]

11. Uh, reread my post, I clearly state a number of theories

Including that she was raped in several different circumstances, but you still attack me because I raise even a little bit of doubt. I'm sorry I made a post wanting to talk about what has been reported. And btw, your first post mentioned an emphasis on the prior offenses vs the team, while I do not feel I did that, I have to point out that as of now I've yet to hear of any sexual or violent crime previously done by any member of the Duke Lacrosse team.

And for further clarification, I'm from Ohio and live in Florida and I attended Ohio State University not Duke. Worried you'll accuse me of "Duke" bias soon, lol.

[bettyellen]

13. you chose to leave out facts, and continue to leave them out... who said

anything about the theories? i could really give a rats ass for your theories.

but you are misrepresenting/ omitting plenty in that half assed "facts" list ,
and now it's obvious that it's not an accident.

[ShaneGR]

15. Ok, so you think some members of that team are guilty....

That's fine, why?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

26. just needed to disabuse you from the notion that you're being unbiased.

nothing about the theories, it's all about you ignoring FACTUAL INFORMATION.
gotit? reread my first post, ennumerating the relevant info you seem intent on trying to ignore.
:HI:

[ShaneGR]

31. Look, I'm not superman

I wrote about what I had seen, read, and heard concerning this case. I never attempted to "omit" things I had also heard. I didn't know specific %s of women who had claimed rape in certain circumstances who had actually been raped. Nor did I ever say I did in my post. And in my post I actually presented more than 1 theory (I'll bring it up since you HATE my theories) where the victim was actually raped. In fact, I repeatedly say over and over again that the victim may have been raped. Over and over again.

But you want to attack me about omitting and bias and then attack me for ignoring your posts which I clearly have not.

[bettyellen]

34. a simple correction is not an attack. you needed to learn some things

so i told you. you ignored what i said, i tried to bring the conversation back to the missing info.
and when you stack up what was omitted, it shows bias.
when you guess how common false reporting of rape is,it's incredibly irresponsible- you aree reporting myths that again, betray bias.
i'm sure you didn't intend to be biased, but you add it all up- and it is.

[Finder]

142. I believe in letting a jury decide, however, you...

have the Faux news version of facts not the actual facts.

[bettyellen]

148. the links he provided were from a site whose reporter has been on Fox

regarding this case.
i'm really pissed he had to go and say eat shit in the same post, because his links were total crap.

[kikiek]

16. One big fact missing is that victim had injuries consistent with her

story of a traumatic rape. No DNA only means they may have used condoms. Also the violent e mail one of the accused sent shows what he thinks of women in general in my opinion. Also it was pointed out that the prosecution doesn't want to reveal their case. Smart move I would say. Time will tell, and I agree with you.

[ShaneGR]

21. Ya, all I'm trying to point out is that no one really knows anything :-)

I went out of my way to point that out but the crazies still run in saying I'm biased against rape victims. Oh well.

[kikiek]

24. Some things are better said than in print. This is probably one such topic

Easy to be misread. I have to admit I was taken aback by your post.

[ShaneGR]

29. Hard to write about a rape accusation without someone freaking...

I personally know a woman who was raped. He knocked the hell out of her too. Her rape kit plus the photographs locked the guy up for 15 years in Ohio. He should have gotten 50 in my opinion. But that doesn't mean you lose all your objectivity, you have to at least talk it out with cases like this.

[bettyellen]

30. asking you to stick to the facts is freaking out?

if you're talking about me, i'm not upset at all.
just correcting you and trying to keep you focused on the facts. your OP is messed up and inaccurate.
i'm sorry you don;t care to make the needed corrections.

[kikiek]

40. At any rate you appear to have made up your mind about the case.

[bettyellen]

43. actually, not at all. but i think some very relevant things were omitted

and if the OP was unaware of them, well then the media coverage he's seen has been pretty biased.
i think the cops know a lot more than we do at this point, and that speculation is useless.

[kikiek]

44. I think the "men" have hired themselves some good lawyers who know

how to influence public opinion. From the way the information has been leaked they could be proteges of Karl. They know what they're doing.

[bettyellen]

57. i'd say you're right. and it's pretty interesting to see the half truths

kinda snowball. they lead people to make assumptions, and people are happy to oblige and assume away.
i'd say they are very talented lawyers.

[kikiek]

72. I absolutely despise blaming the victim. She was drunk, she was a dancer,

she had a record. Guess that means you're fair game for rapists. Just like the proposed SD law. Abortions allowed only if you're raped and a virgin and biblical. Everyone else has it coming.

[LisaL]

79. No, it just means there could be credibility problems.

Lets say she is telling her story and she was raped by three men in a bathroom (that's a pretty big assumption in itself, but I will assume it for the sake of the argument). Well, there are 46 lacrosse players. Does it matter to anyone which one did it, or what?
How has she identified anyone?
There is no DNA to support her identification.
THe DA claimed he needs to collect DNA from all 46 players because it will identify the suspects.
So, without the DNA, how is he going to identify the suspects?
Are you going to accept this woman's identification without question?
Even though she apparently was drunk/intoxicated/passed out just a short time later in Kroger's parking lot.
So, is there a need for the correct person to be charged with this rape? Or not? Does it matter which one actually did it?
And that is assuming that anyone actually did it.

[kikiek]

85. We don't know what the prosecution has. They aren't talking. Only

talking is trash from the defense and only purpose is to make you think there is credibility problems. It is obviously working.

[LisaL]

100. They aren't talking? The DA

has been giving interviews. Recently he was answering questions in the college attended by the alleged victim. And yet you claim the prosecution isn't talking? What gives?

[kikiek]

101. They have said they aren't going to give away their case.

[LisaL]

104. He was answering questions about this case.

Is that not giving away the case, or what?

[kikiek]

106. No it isn't. There is evidence. He has said it will come out when he

presents it to the grand jury. That is where it belongs.

[LisaL]

108. Aren't' the grand jury proceedings secret? How is it going to come

out then?
This guy had given so many interviews, I am amazed it's the defense you have a problem with.

[kikiek]

111. I believe in leveling the field out. You aren't going to convince me that

public opinion isn't sympathetic to the men involved despite the e mail the one guy wrote. Yea they're just good ole boys in over their heads with evil strippers. I think it reflects the whole teams attitude and they're misogynist creeps. Even if they can't pin this on any of them.

[BrownOak]

146. Really?????

Follow the public reactions to this case then.

Have you seen a rally for the alleged perpetrators?
How many editorials have you seen in support of the players? How many of those existed in the week between the time when the allegations hit the public and the time the defense lawyers first spoke for their clients?

How many people on this forum are convinced of their guilt?

How about you stating that it reflects the whole team's attitude... even those guys who weren't at the party?

[hexola]

105. I took that as local PR - not so much media posturing...

like the defense is doing.

I think the DA is letting them twist - let it all shake out.

[Finder]

143. Agree. n/t

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kikiek]

27. I would hate to have to count the number of women I know 1st hand

who have been raped. I bet I am not alone with this sickening statistic. I had one friend grabbed off the street while walking to her car. Taken and raped all night and finally released naked on a street. That was after the 2 rapists argued about whether to kill her or not. That was the most violent story of many. It is personal for us I think.

[BrownOak]

144. Facts, facts, facts...

why not give the percentage of falsely reported rapes (somewhere around 2%) instead of making it sound so common?

Does this statistic mean anything when you're dealing with a single case? Just because 98% of reported rapes result in convictions doesn't mean there's a 98% chance that this accusation is true. (And of course the inverse of that is that the stats of "thousand of reported rapes are false allegations" is meaningless when dealing with an individual case as well.)

what about the news reports that the photos weren't time stamped accurately?

I've yet to see these reports but it seems highly unlikely that they exist or if they do, if they relate to the photos that the defense is talking about. So far, they have only shown the photos to limited media outlets (in fact, the only one I know of so far is the Durham Herald Sun), but they have not released the photos to them. From what they claim, the time stamping has been verified independently and that they are relying on the data files attached to the photos, not the traditional time stamping that most are familiar with. However, if you have any links to those stories I would love to see them.

and that most of the time (70-80%) there won't be DNA involved in prosecuting rapes, when you make it sound the opposite it true?

Again, that's a misleading statistic. The relevant stat would be in how many rapes with a similar profile - a violent assault with multiple rapists in a closed environment and DNA swabs taken from the victim within 3 hours - result in any DNA evidence.

you do realise that most of your "facts" came from the players' defense team, right? and they are more guilty than anyone as trying this in the media- and wow it seems to be working too, if you are any indication.

The DA has come out and publicly stated that he's confident a rape occurred. He's come out and condemned the team members for not stepping forward to identify what he says are the guilty parties. He responded to every media request for the first two weeks of this investigation. This was all before the defense uttered one word to the press. If you think the defense is more guilty than anyone of trying this case in the press then you should realize that they have acted in response to the DA's overzealous use of the media to proclaim the players guilty in the face of an upcoming election.

As for your leak count - let's break it down

1. Victim's statement, released to the press through the search warrant that was not sealed. (Prosecution - 1, Defense - 0)
2. Results of the rape kit - see above (P - 2, D - 0)
3. DNA testing of the team - not attributed
4. Defense claims victim arrived at the party intoxicated (P-2, D-1)
5. Victim's prior charges - public record, media generated
6. Victim was a stripper - see 1 & 2 (P-3, D-1)
7. Racial slurs - see 1,2, & 6 (P-4, D-1)
8. Photos showing bruising - (P-4,D-2)

You can add to this the story reported on NBC17 yesterday that "an unnamed source close to the investigation" told the station that the victim "may have been drugged."

The defense is hardly the only party using the media on this one.

[mdmc]

4. theory

Three former Duke lacrosse playing drop outs raped her in the potty. They are not on the team. They did not give dna evidence. They dropped out and party with their boyz.

(I don't follow this - this is my guess)

[LisaL]

99. Great theory. But why does DA wants to indict lacrosse players

in this alleged rape?

[sam sarrha]

9. I have met several women at meetings who quit drinking because the woke up

in strange scary places absent their underwear... on several occations..

please remember that addiction is a behavior that you do repeatedly, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year.. decade after decade.. even though you know it will kill you the next time you do it..

alcoholic's usually start to get serious about considering it a problem after about 20 years of daily compulsive usage.

it is said that 1 in 8 are hopelessly addicted upon their first drink due to their genetic makeup.

i was trying to get a guy into rehab, but they kept telling him to go to detox first because he had not gone 24 hours sober before coming in. we are walking out of the building and he says..'24 hours without a drink..!!! dont those Assholes know us alcoholics dont take no F*cking Vacations..!!'

the problem is if they Cant go 24 hours they will probably go into DTs'.. which he was, and the paramedics cost money needed for the actual treatment. but detox is a hard place to get them into..

i basically blacked out on my first drink and came to about 30 years later.. when my second wife was telling me i needed to quit drinking or live somewhere else.. i remember the fog thinning and thinking..'i have heard that somewhere else'.. please understand that i Rarely got drunk.. i am hypoglycemic, but i maintained a a functional alcohol level.. after work..well,.. on the way home from work. I was listening to a Pema Chodron tape..'Whwn Things Fall Apart'..when i met a Tibetan Monk who introduced me to Mahayana Buddhism, after about 4 years of 3 meetings a week and regular meditation i had a Universal Revelation during a group meditation that Buddhism was like an A.A. Meeting for people addicted to conventional thought..

it was meditation that got me off alcohol.. Buddhism was like comming home after a long hard tragic voyage...

[genie_weenie]

12. Buddhism allowed me

to spit fire and stretch my arms and legs for devastating attacks upon my hated foe Ryu!

Sorry, I'm just joking. It is great and uplifting to read your personal journey of understanding and self-awareness. If only more people would turn to tending their own souls and stop trying to purify others.

Your post is touching and I think others might like to know more in depth (if you'd open yourself up that much), I would think about sharing it like in the Lounge for quiet discussion and reflection.

[sam sarrha]

18. it was a reflectio on the womans problems.. win or lose she is still in

trouble,.. she probably doesnt know what happened.

a girl at our college had a compulsive sex problem.. she had sex with a guy in a sleeping bag in the hall of a busy Dorm. some girls were trying to talk with her about 'her' and she said that she didnt really want to have sex with him there.. Dah.! and the other girls talked her into charging him with rape.. it ruined his life. she ment 'there' and it cascaded into something with a life of its own which she couldnt stop without shame and possably a serious fine and expulsion.. unfortunately for the guy it probably cost a quater million in lawyer fees and he cant get into a internet college now.

[LisaL]

14. For one, the other stripper does not say she left without the

alleged victim. The other stripper is presumably present in Kroger's parking lot. She is heard in the background telling the dispatcher that the alleged victim is fairly drunk.
The victim was not found in someone else's car in a parking lot. She is found in a car of a woman who claims to have been passing by the lacrosse house and claims she picked up a victim as she was walking by to the Kroger's guard. However, that woman is most likely the other stripper. That same woman probably made 911 call saying she and her girlfriend were walking by the lacrosse house and were called racial slurs.

[ShaneGR]

17. Hadn't heard that....

What I saw reported was that an employee of the store had alleged the victim to be fairly drunk. I haven't seen any reports of the other dancer being present when the victim was found in the car.

[LisaL]

20. The Kroger's guard calls 911 and says

that the victim is drunk/intoxicated. The voice of another woman (the owner of the car, presumably the second stripper) is clearly heard in the background. She is saying to the dispatcher that the alleged victim is fairly drunk and offers to explain the situation. THe dispatcher then says she does not want an explanation and offers to send the police car over there.
Later on, Kroger's guard gives an interview and says the owner of the car claimed to have picked the alleged victim as she was walking by the lacrosse house.
However, that same woman apparently called 911 and complained that she was called a racial slur as she and her black girlfriend were walking/driving by the lacrosse house. Most likely this woman is in fact the second stripper.

[ShaneGR]

25. Interesting...

But I always assumed the owner of the car was the reason for the police call in the first place. So if it was the second dancer, wouldn't she just push her friend/co-worker over and drive home? And when the original complaint was made by the other dancer then wouldnt she have mentioned the rape from the start? Guess I need to hear that recording. Did you hear it? I'm just wondering if it has been released publicly.

[LisaL]

37. Yes, I heard that recording. It had been played on Dan Abram's

show. The woman has not admitted to being the second dancer on either 911 calls. In the first call, she claims she was either walking or driving by the lacrosse house with her black girlfriend. In second call, she does not mention who she is because the dispatcher cut her off saying she does not need an explanation. Presumably, though, it's the second dancer who drove the alleged victim from the lacrosse house to the parking lot of Kroger's, not just some good samaritan. The two dancers were not friends. So the second dancer would not know where to take the alleged victim. As for the second dancer mentioning rape-the defense attorneys claim the second dancer does not think a rape took place. Again, that is coming from the defense, so I wouldn't know how much validity is in their statement, and what exactly does the second dancer say.

[ShaneGR]

45. That makes sense....

Second dancer doesnt know or doesnt think a rape took place so she doesn't mention it. But if she was with the victim the whole time (Makes sense, if she's with her in the parking lot I guess, she's a very credible witness to the whole thing. I swear I saw and read that she had left beforehand though.

[LisaL]

55. I have read that both women tried to leave soon after arriving,

but were asked to come back and did.
I do not think the second dancer left by herself, leaving the alleged victim there. Anyhow, there is a 911 call made by someone claiming to have been walking/driving by the lacrosse house-presumably that's a second dancer. There is also a woman in Kroger's parking lot, the owner of the car. I am pretty sure police know exactly who that woman is, because the police man came to pick out the alleged victim out of that woman's car.
The police also must know who the first 911 caller is.

[cynatnite]

28. Do you have a source for this?

"Thousands of rape allegations have been found to be misguided (got the wrong guy)."

I have heard of some, but never read anything saying 'thousands'. That's a hell of a statement.

[bettyellen]

32. i asked him to get the stat- i believe it's 2-2.5% at most... but he's not

concerned with accurracy as much as crock of shit theories.

[ShaneGR]

33. See post 31....

I clearly answered your claims about %s. No where in my post do I compare the % of women claiming rape to where the rape actually occured.

[bettyellen]

35. thousands of false claims....

ther's nothing factual about that part of your OP. your repeating a myth.
it is a very rare occurence by all stats, you do not present it as such.

[ShaneGR]

41. Thousands of False Rape Accusations....

I stand by that, yes, thousands of false rape accusation have taken place. And tens of thousands have been convicted for it.

I totally stand by that statement.

I just did a google, read this:

Rape is frequently described as a crime of violence, not of sex. Yet a woman 16-19 years old, the age of greatest sexual attractiveness, is more than 84 times more likely to be raped than a woman 50 or older.(1)


In a survey of 610 female college students who's average age was 19 years old, 39 percent said they had said no to sex when they meant yes, and 69 percent said they had said no when they meant maybe. Of sexually experienced women, 61 percent had engaged in token resistance.(2)


Of 556 accusations of rape examined in an Air Force study, 27 percent of the accusers admitted, either just before taking a polygraph test or after failing one, that they had lied.(3)


In a nine-year study of all resolved rape cases in a Midwestern U.S. city of 70,000, the accusers recanted their charges 41 percent of the time. The 41 percent figure does not include the other accusations that the police department recorded as unfounded, for which there was insufficient evidence to establish the assault.(4)


A survey of all the forcible rape complaints during a three-year period at two large Midwestern state universities found that 50 percent of the accusations were false. At each university, the complaints and investigations were the responsibility of a ranking female officer, and no complaint was declared false unless there was a recantation by the accuser. Fifty-three percent of the accusations were motivated by a need for an alibi; revenge was the motive for 44 percent.(5)


A third of DNA scans now routinely done in new rape investigations are nonmatches, according to a newsmagazine.(6)

About 9 percent of reported rapes are of males.(7)
There may be more rapes of men in prison than of women outside prison. One limited study found that 14 percent of the prison inmates in one institution said they had been raped or assaulted. If that figure applies to all jails and penal institutions, about one million males are raped behind bars each year.(8)


Of 204 male college students, 20 percent reported they had been the victims of coercive sex by a female since the age of 16; 23 percent said they had been unwillingly touched sexually by a female.(9)


In a survey of 507 male and 486 female college students, 63 percent of the males and 46 percent of the females said they had engaged in unwanted sexual intercourse. Furthermore, 6.5 percent of the males vs only 5.8 percent of the females said physical coercion had been employed to induce them to have unwanted sex. When kissing and petting were included as sexual activity, 98 percent of the women and 94 percent of the men said they had engaged in such activities but were unwilling.(10)


A survey of 930 gay males disclosed that 3.9 percent had been sexually assaulted by females.(11) Among homosexuals, 31 percent of lesbians and only 12 percent of gay males reported they were victims of forced sex by their current or most recent partners.(12)


Estimates on the prevalence of rape vary wildly. According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, there were 102,560 reported rapes or attempted rapes in 1990. The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that 130,000 women were victims of rape in 1990. A Harris poll sets the figure at 380,000 rapes or sexual assaults for 1993. According to a study by the National Victims Center, there were 683,000 completed forcible rapes in 1990. The Justice Department says that 8 percent of all American women will be victims of rape or attempted rape in their lifetime. The radical feminist legal scholar Catherine McKinnon, however, claims that "by conservative definition happens to almost half of all women at least once in their lives." Clearly, independent studies on the incidence and prevalence of rape are badly needed.(13)

...The Ms. Magazine Campus Project on Sexual Assault, directed by Mary Koss, the most extensive, most widely disseminated, and most frequently cited....


The Ms. study directed by Koss surveyed 6,159 students at 32 colleges. As Koss operationally defines the problem, 17 percent of the female college students in her study had been victims of rape (15 percent) or attempted rape (12 percent) an average of two times between the ages of 14 and 21....


There are several reasons for serious researchers to question the magnitude of sexual assault conveyed by the Ms. findings....When asked directly, 73 percent of the students whom Koss categorized as victims of rape did not think that they had been raped. This discrepancy is underscored by the subsequent behavior of a high proportion of identified victims, 42 percent of whom had sex again with the man who supposedly raped them. Of those categorized as victims of attempted rape, 35 percent later had sex with their purported offender....


As a guide to trends in sexual assaults...Bureau of Justice Statistics data show that rates of rape and attempted rape declined by about 30 percent between 1978 and 1988. As for recent experience, BJS findings reveal that 1.2 women in 1,000 over 12 years of age were victims of rape or attempted rape. This amounted to approximately 135,000 female victims in 1989. No trivial number, this annual figure translates into a lifetime prevalence rate of roughly 5 to 7 percent, which suggests that one woman out of 14 is likely to experience rape or attempted rape sometime in her life.(14)



REFERENCES


1)- U.S. Bureau of Criminal Justice Statistics. Criminal Victimization in the United State: 1987. Table 5, pp 18-19.


2)- Muehlenhard, Charlene L., and Hollabaugh, Lisa C. "Do Women Sometimes Say No When They Mean Yes? The Prevalence and Correlates of Women's Token Resistance to Sex." Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol. 54, No. 5 (1988), pp 872-879.


3)- McDowell, Charles P., Ph.D. "False Allegations." Forensic Science Digest, (publication of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations), Vol. 11, No. 4 (December 1985), p. 64.


4)- Kanin, Eugene J., Ph.D. "False Rape Allegations." Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1 (1994), pp 81-92.


5)- Kanin, Eugene J., Ph.D. "False Rape Allegations." Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No.1 (1994), pp 81-92.


6)- Krajick, Kevin. "Genetics in the Courtroom: Controversial DNA testing can clear a suspect." Newsweek, Jan. 11, 1993, p. 64.


7)- U.S. Bureau of Criminal Justice Statistics. Criminal Victimization in the United States: 1973-1978, p. 15.


8)- Wooden, Wayne S., and Parker, Jay. Men Behind Bars. New York: Plenum Press, 1982. The one million figure is based on the fact that about 8.6million males pass through jails and prisons each year, according to the Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics, 1990, Tables 6.33, 6.63, 6.89, and 6.90.


9)- Struckman-Johnson, Cindy, Ph.D., and Struckman-Johnson, David, Ph.D. "Men Pressured and Forced Into Sexual Experience." Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1 (1994), pp 93-114.


10)- Muehlenhard, Charlene L., and Cook, Stephen W. "Real Men Don't Say No: Do Men Have Sex When They Don't Want To?" Symposium, Miscommunication and Date Rape: Causes and Consequences, Society for the Scientific Study of Sex, 1986; also, by the same researchers, "Men's Self-Reports of Unwanted Sexual Activity." Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 24 (1988), pp 58-72.


11)- Hickson, Ford C. I.; Davies, Peter M., Ph.D.; Hunt, Andrew J.; Weatherburn, Peter; McManus, Thomas J.; and Coxon, Anthony P.M., Ph.D. "Gay Men as Victims of Nonconsensual Sex." Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 3 (1994).


12)- Waterman, Caroline K.; Dawson, Lori J.; and Bologna, Michael J. "Sexual Coercion in Gay Male and Lesbian Relationships: Predictors and Implications for Support Services." The Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 26, No. 1 (February 1989), pp 118-124.


13)- Sommers, Christina Hoff, Ph.D. Who Stole Feminism? How Women Have Betrayed Women. New York: Simon & Schuster (1994), pp 209-210.


14)- Gilbert, Neil. "Realities and Mythologies of Rape." Society, May/June 1992, pp 4-10.

[cynatnite]

42. Link please n/t

[bettyellen]

48. let's see, that's a mishmash of strung together quotes, no two paragraphs

from the same study or report, so there is no context. there are referneces to studies you can't even tell what the subject was. and many links to a single book.
much of it is really hard to put into context.. prison (man on man) rape? okaaaay.
Link please.
i just have to see who put this together.

[jazzjunkysue]

53. "No one makes false rape accusations?" This guy did. In today's paper

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060415/NEWS03/604150351&SearchID=73241684149380

Spring Valley man falsely reports rape
By SULAIMAN BEG
[e-mail]
THE JOURNAL NEWS

(Original publication: April 15, 2006)


SPRING VALLEY — A 20-year-old village man who claimed four black men robbed and raped him this week has been charged after police said he made up the story.

Village police charged Daniel Emerson Martinez-Salas of 138 Union Road Thursday night with falsely reporting an incident, a class A misdemeanor.

Detective Sgt. Steven Levy said police responded to a call of a distraught man on Kennedy Drive at 4 a.m. Wednesday and spotted Martinez-Salas sitting on the curb.

He told Officer Simone Fonvil that he had been raped by four black men behind Spring Valley High School, which is off Kennedy Drive.

[bettyellen]

76. OMIGOD this is a hilarious link!! thank you!!!! Nat Coalition of Free Men!

Welcome to the National Coalition of Free Men
National Coalition of Free Men (NCFM) is a non-profit educational & civil rights organization that looks at the ways sex discrimination affects men and boys. NCFM publishes "Transitions: Journal of Men's Perspectives" six times a year and sponsors various activities according to the interests of its volunteers.


http://www.ncfm.org/


your last lesson for tonight, OP... what you google, so can we. so, if you're embarrassed by the link, don't use it.
:rofl:

[Marie26]

96. Oops.

The source - http://www.ncfm.org/FACT1.HTM

[Neil Lisst]

84. thanks for providing a little sanity on this topic

I wouldn't be concerned about detractors, if I were you.

You give them highly foot-noted information, and they want it gift-wrapped.

The grim reality is that the claim of rape isn't always true. They like to claim it's 2%, but there's no support for that. It's a number that has been used by certain groups for 30 years, and it was pulled out of someone's ass in the 70s.

The trend is that the problem of false claims of rape are getting worse. I've read the data you posted, and quoted some of it at DU, but you can never convince those whose minds are made up as soon as someone says she was raped.

[cynatnite]

92. That fact has been supported by several studies and universities..

It's on par with other crimes falsly reported.

Links have been provided and sources sited in other posts.

[Neil Lisst]

97. It's bogus, and it's traced back to a 1970s source.

It's not the same as other crimes in false reporting, and that's clear to anyone who has read the data, but you should believe whatever floats your boat.

[cynatnite]

38. Can you talk your way out of this?

Your original post:
"Thousands of rape allegations have been found to be misguided (got the wrong guy)."


Post #31
"I didn't know specific %s of women who had claimed rape in certain circumstances who had actually been raped. Nor did I ever say I did in my post."

You lose.

:thumbsdown:

[ShaneGR]

47. See post 41....

I don't know about winning or losing, but I believe post 41 addresses your concerns.

[bettyellen]

51. Link please... I want to see why all this info is fourteen years old......

couldn't find anything more recent. i can't wait to see the source of this.
i know alot of it is inaccurate or misleading.

[ShaneGR]

68. Here's a thought

Google Rape False Accusation.....

It's at the top, I said I googled, and that's what I got.

[cynatnite]

78. You provided information with no link

Try mine. I used yahoo and typed 'rape statistics'. And I actually supplied links, too.

[cynatnite]

61. Um...that's what I'm asking a link for

:eyes:

Geez

[ShaneGR]

36. No, I didn't take the time to find internet links...

I just wrote about what I had seen on the television, read on the internet, and heard on the radio. I even mentioned (I just reread what I wrote) that these were facts as I'd seen reported. I've yet to see anyone really refute anything I wrote with the exception of a % question. But I never even mentioned %'s of anything. Really I just wanted a discussion about the case. It's an intersting case.

[cynatnite]

39. Sources...cite sources

You want to be credible here at DU. Cite sources. Otherwise, you won't get the time of day by those who won't forget that you state facts with nothing to back it up with.

[ShaneGR]

49. Hehe, time of day....

Maybe my post was meant to incite facts which may or may not point to guilt or innocence instead of the 20+ posts screaming about nothing. I didn't even realize there were so many until I went back and looked through either. Including a rant about defense attorneys from a poster in here, which I hadn't even read.

I was watching a report on MSNBC and started writing. At least I sparked a good debate, I thought that's what DU was for, debate.

[hexola]

52. You shouldn't have used the word "facts" in your subject line...

That's what sets some people off...

I know what you were shooting for...

[ShaneGR]

66. Ya, probably should have phrased it different

I was actually trying to start a discussion on it not some flame war. I thought I did make it clear I wasn't anti-woman or anti-rape victim.

[cynatnite]

59. Debate yes, but don't pull BS facts out of your butt n/t

[bloom]

64. You might as well be citing Rush Limbaugh and other such assholes

You wrote:

Thousands of False Rape Accusations....

I stand by that, yes, thousands of false rape accusation have taken place. And tens of thousands have been convicted for it.

I totally stand by that statement.

I just did a google, read this:

In a nine-year study of all resolved rape cases in a Midwestern U.S. city of 70,000, the accusers recanted their charges 41 percent of the time. The 41 percent figure does not include the other accusations that the police department recorded as unfounded, for which there was insufficient evidence to establish the assault.(4)


A survey of all the forcible rape complaints during a three-year period at two large Midwestern state universities found that 50 percent of the accusations were false. At each university, the complaints and investigations were the responsibility of a ranking female officer, and no complaint was declared false unless there was a recantation by the accuser. Fifty-three percent of the accusations were motivated by a need for an alibi; revenge was the motive for 44 percent.(5)

THE ONLY REASON THERE WOULD BE THOUSANDS OF FALSE RAPE ACCUSATIONS IS THAT ARE 1800+ FORCIBLE RAPES EVERY DAY IN THE US - SO IF YOU TAKE 2% OF THAT YOU WILL GET 1000'S OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEAR. 1800 X 365 = 657,000/YR - SO @ 2% YOU COULD GET 13000 FALSE CLAIMS FROM THAT. Where do you get the conviction statistics?

Look at the sites where these stats that you LOVE are from:

christianparty.net

National Coalition of Free Men

falserape.net

His Side with Glenn Sacks

www.fathersforlife.org

_______

You are siding with the misogynist assholes. If that is what you are - then you have found your group.

[ShaneGR]

67. I said thousands of false accusastions

I said that there had been thousands of false rape accusations, I wasn't lying or even being misleading. Thousands is thousands, and thousands isn't a small number when you consider how many of those thousands could go to prison anyways. Every case deserves a fair look. I think I made that clear in my post.

[bloom]

70. There is NO credibility in the sources you are citing.

[ShaneGR]

75. Well, they are for the most part acedemic journals....

Commonly cited by thousands of college students, when I quoted these types of journals (I was in politics not sexual behavior though) I never had a professor tell me they were unreliable.

[bloom]

82. You mean college students who are YOUNG REPUBLICANS???

or Fraternity guys and sports jock trying to pretend that rape is not the problem that it is.


YOU ARE PROMOTING THE RAPE CULTURE WITH THIS CRAP.

[cynatnite]

86. Actually, a lot of it came from RW blogs...

He knows how quick he'll get shot down by posting RW blogs here. LOL

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

98. the site is a hoot! if he can't find it, here it is the missing LINK......

i'm laughing too much to be rational. but you'd have to be a neandrathal to take this site seriously.....
i'm late to meet a friend for a beer, but i just had to share the link w/ you.
:hi:

http://www.ncfm.org/

and here's the doc they pulled together.

://www.ncfm.org/FACT1.HTM

[bloom]

103. That's pathetic.

I don't know why this thread is even up - if that sort of thing is the basis of his "thinking".

[cynatnite]

81. And that is not true

You just don't get it. 2% of 200,000 reported rapes per year is not thousands. Do the math. It's 2000 and in many studies they've taken in consideration some women retract their statements not because it's a lie, but out of fear, stigma and other issues.

And when you look at how many women are raped in this country, you will find the convictions are significantly smaller. They in no way add up.

I provided all of this in my post below citing statistics and their sources.

Please, go take a reading through these. The next time you make a statement of fact, back it up with proof.

[hexola]

46. "...facts as I'd seen reported...."

Not really facts...

"information as I'd seen reported" is more accurate...

Just look at the Natalee Halloway case to see how much BS can put on the air...

I agree, it's an interesting case...I think endless specuation and theorizing is completely appropriate.

[Marie26]

50. It's difficult to theorize

That's a good attempt at listing the facts in an unbiased way. My only quibble is that the majority of these facts are coming straight from the defense team, who is spinning information in a way that favors their clients. The DA is remaining silent. So, at this point any compilation of facts is going to be fairly lop-sided.

- You mention the victim's convictions, but not the fact that 15 lacrosse team members had been convicted of misdemeanors (mostly for disruptive behavior). Police have been called to the house 4 times.

- Four broken red fingernails were found where the victim was allegedly raped.

- Incredibly disturbing email sent out by a Duke lacrosse player 30 minutes after the alleged assault.

- Eye-witness accounts of shouts & racial slurs coming from the house.

I'm going to be humble enough to say that I have no idea what happened that night, and neither does anyone else here. The prosecutor will have to make his case before a jury, and that jury will know all the relevant facts in order to construct the correct theory of the case. Everything else is just speculation. My preference would be that the DA & defense both stay silent about this case to keep it from being tried in the media (Though it's too late for that now.)

Links for this info:
http://www.gambling911.com/033006news.html
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-0604060243apr06,1,887310.story
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/422787.html

[ShaneGR]

58. Aha!

Good info, man, this case is nuts. Maybe the people yelling at me for no links are correct, maybe we need a thread with a gigantic linkathon of info on this case! Would be fun!

[Marie26]

74. Maybe

I went ahead & added the links for that post to kick off the linkathon. Yeah, this case is nuts, because it's attracted so much media attention, & (IMO) the parties are using the media to influence popular opinion. That's why I think it's hard to get at the truth of what happened, no matter how "unbiased" you're attempting to be. It is important to try to sift out the spin from the facts, though. If you're really trying to collect all the facts, it would probably help to include the links to make sure it's coming from the mainstream news articles, instead of groups that might have a motive for twisting the facts.

[ShaneGR]

54. CHALLENGE.....

Since I've been a beat up in this thread, despite having brought up several theories including the actual rape of the victim, does anyone have any linkable material showing any actual evidence pointing to the guilt of the Lacrosse team or anyone associated with the Lacrosse team? Anything? I'd really like to see it.

[bettyellen]

60. sadly, you take enlightenment as being "beaten up"

perhaps you should educate yourself better next time if you're so sensitive about these things.

[ShaneGR]

71. Declining challenge?

All I asked for was any link pointing to some sort of guilt....

[Marie26]

77. Accepted

Try the links in my post above. I was assuming you were acting in good faith, but it seems pretty clear now that you had already made up your mind, based on the posts below. You can quote blogs, or men's rights sites, but they're all just doing the same thing we are - speculating.

[bettyellen]

87. sorry i was busy looking and laughing like hell at that "male rights" site

you linked.
omigod, i'm peeing in my pants.
funniest
link ever.

http://www.ncfm.org/


i'll check in sunday and see how you fared. that link deserves it's own thread though!
:rofl:

[cynatnite]

89. I saw that...

I didn't want to embarrass him. :rofl:

[Marie26]

93. Oh man

That's lame. Did you see the "Free William Hetherington" campaign? :eyes:

[cynatnite]

63. There are only the words of corporate media and defense lawyers...

of which I consider crap.

I won't pass judgment on anything until this case goes to trial. The woman is a victim of a crime and the Lacrosse team hasn't even been charged...yet.

Even if they are charged, it's best to wait until ALL the evidence has come to light.

[jazzjunkysue]

69. At least you didn't get deletted, like me.

I started doubting the story that this woman was "completely" innocent and didn't contribute to this crime, and was immediately deletted.

You got better treatment than I did.

I still say it's just plain stupid to go out to a drunken college party and take your clothes off without any security. I never said she deserved to be assaulted, but many DU'ers took my words to that conclusion on their own.

[cynatnite]

56. How 'bout these facts

Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
One in six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape, and 10% of sexual assault victims are men.
In 2003-2004, there were an average annual 204,370 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
Since 1993, rape/sexual assault has fallen by over 64%.



In 2004, there were 209,880 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assaults according to the 2004 National Crime Victimization Survey (pdf).

Of the average annual 204,370 victims in 2003-2004, about 65,510 were victims of completed rape, 43,440 were victims of attempted rape, and 95,420 were victims of sexual assault.

http://www.rainn.org/docs/statistics/ncvs2004.pdf?PHPSESSID=be8522797402b549ea293cbdfd3210d7

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/

Myth: Women often lie about rape or falsely accuse men of rape.
Fact: Statistical studies indicate false reports make up 2% or less of the reported cases of sexual assault. This figure is approximately the same for other types of crimes. Only 1 out of 10 rapes are actually reported. Rapes by someone the victim knows are the least likely to be reported.

http://www.rwu.edu/Campus+Life/Student+Services/Counseling+Center/Rape+Myths+and+Facts.htm

Rape is a significant problem on college campuses across the nation, where most victims are acquainted with their assailants. A major research study has shown that one in eight college women is the victim of rape during her college years, while one in four is the victim of an attempted rape. Most of the women (84 percent) knew the men who raped them and 57 percent were on dates. Ninety- five percent did not report the rape to officials; 42 percent of the victims told no one (Koss et al., 1987. "Scope of Rape." Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology). The effects of rape on these student victims can be devastating, creating emotional, trauma-related difficulties and, consequently, disrupting or ending their academic careers.

http://www.psu.edu/ur/NEWS/news/factlawaction.html

The FBI has stated that false reports of rape are no higher than false reports for other crimes. Such accusations account for only 2% of reported rapes. Rape is the most underreported of all crimes. Some data suggests that 80%-90% of rapes are never reported to the police.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cwg/archives/whiteribbon/myths.html

Only about 2% of all rape and related sex charges are determined to be false, the same percentage as for other felonies. Many cases are dropped because of insufficient evidence for conviction but this should not be confused with false reporting.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ProjectSafe/assault.html

[ShaneGR]

62. But none of that has anything to do with THIS case....

As I said before, I never mentioned %'s in my post. Even just 2% could be innocent. %s don't mean anything until you're announcing that only 1 in a few hundred thousand or millions could be capable of this crime based on our DNA evidence. Each case MUST be heard, and INDEPENDENTLY.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

88. Uh...that's a blog

no fact, but opinion.

and in no way backs up your assertion that 'thousands' of rapes are not rapes.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kikiek]

95. Funny it doesn't mention the disturbing and violent e mail sent by one

of the team members. The woman was drunk, but many of the accused have "minor" records of disorderly drunken behavior. Please tell me how is this biased for the woman.

[hexola]

91. Thanks - excellent collection of info! (nt)

[bettyellen]

122. aaawww, too bad he punctuated that info with a command to

"eat shit"

:rofl:

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

65. Well, for one, the DA can not point at the statistics and ask

for a conviction. He will need to show evidence against specific persons that proves beyond a reasonable doubt they committed this particular crime. He can't just say -rapists are horrible persons, rape is a horrible crime, so lets convict this one, two or three. I am not even sure how many people this woman has identified at this point. This DA needs to have evidence that this crime was committed, and he needs to have evidence against specific players.

[Igel]

171. Link that quibbles

with the 2% figure.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=555884

P. 34-35 discusses what the author could determine about the actual incidence of false complaints; 2%" from one 1975 source, but it's not a stat that's readily generalizable--although that's exactly what happened, as she points out. 8% are 'unfounded', from FBI sources, but she points out that 'unfounded' doesn't mean 'false'. Final conclusion: No good empirical study or empirical evidence on which to base an assertion, at least as of 8/04.

It's far and away not the first case of a number being offered and because it's an important figure to know it gets picked up by sources far and wide as absolute truth applying where it was never originally intended to apply. After it's accepted as true, it no longer needs to be footnoted. At least this one is based on an actual reported incidence.

I have no reason to think that Prof. Anderson has an anti-victim stance, but somebody with easier access to legal databases might want to see if that particular quibble set off a firestorm of protest.

What use anybody wants to make of the lack of a good number, with ~8% being the maximum upper bound (and the real number likely being rather lower) is up to 'anybody'.

[ShaneGR]

102. LINKATHON!

Earlier I requested links in the favor of the prosecution, none were provided. So I thought I'd post one contained in another link I'd provided:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke4.html

It mentions an Adam, Matt, and Brent. Who's got a listing of the Duke players???

[ShaneGR]

107. O.O, I gotz a JUICY LINK!

http://www.gambling911.com/033006news.html

Not exactly the best source though, gambling site. But Lacrosse is a sport that can be gambled on!

[LisaL]

109. I don't have the whole roster.

But the team had one Bret, one Breck, three Matts and one Adam. However, police also made claims that players used fake names or numbers. So, please, don't just assume those are even the alleged rapists.
http://www.gambling911.com/033006Dnews.html

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hexola]

118. here here!!!

I agree 100% - some people clearly have an axe to grind well beyond this case...

[bettyellen]

119. asking for facts to be noted is being objective.

getting them from that sad as web site, free men whatever, is not.
go look and report back.
:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. Definitely A Confusing Case, And Not Sure If The Rape Was Real Or Not.

You listed a pretty good synopsis of what has transpired so far, and upon reading it agree that it is a messed up case that is impossible to draw true conclusions from just yet. I'm thinking the prosecutors do in fact have some better evidence they have not presented yet, and lord knows they better if they want this case to hold any water at all. The DNA tests coming back clean was a huge boost for the defense and the alleged victim also does have some credibility issues, though lord knows credibility doesn't affect nor undermine the potential for one to be raped. If she was raped, then I hope to hell that the prosecutors have the goods and put whatever scumbags did it away for a hell of a long time.

[kikiek]

113. Now here is a bandwagon I can jump on. Good way to end it.

[LisaL]

114. What goods could they possibly have?

In the absence of DNA?
And with players not talking?
All I see them having is a testimony of the woman.
If anyone else has any ideas, do share them.

[hexola]

116. Could they have her DNA on a foreign object? (nt)

[LisaL]

125. Defense claimed her DNA was not found in the bathroom.

However, the prosecution also had run DNA tests in a private lab, and never revealed those results.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. Honestly? No Idea. That's Why This Case Is Probably Dead In The Water.

[Kingshakabobo]

120. If it turns out that it was her stripper partner that made the.........

"racial slur" 911 call that will cinch it for me. This case is looking more and more like a half-assed attempt at extortion after a strip-job gone wrong.

I'm sorry, but her past criminal record does have some bearing here. We're not talking about speeding tickets. Her stripping-cab stealing- drunken- attempted cop running over certainly raises questions about her credibility.

[LisaL]

124. And it also suggest she doesn't hold her liquor very well.

[BrownOak]

150. Well, here you go...

"Defense attorneys say they can prove the other dancer inside the house is the same person who claimed she was just passing by on a 911 call -- a claim verified by WRAL."

http://www.wral.com/news/8542111/detail.html

[Neil Lisst]

121. the facts we know so far suggest she was not raped by the athletes

No DNA from any of the players on her body really makes a conviction very unlikely in this case.

That, added with the timeline from then until the hospital make this case one that will probably go away as soon as the election is over.

[LisaL]

123. Apparently the DA doesn't think so.

Apparently, he plans to indict two players tomorrow. Why two, and not three? She could only ID two alleged rapists? And she was drunk/intoxicated/passed out just a short time later? Just her ID alone would give any reasonable person a reasonable doubt, IMO.

[Neil Lisst]

126. my guess is he's going to use the DNA on the towel to indict the two

The DA has way overtalked the case, probably because he has an election soon and the black community and women's groups are on high alert. They're watching him.

He has to at least look like he's going to prosecute the case if he hopes to make it past the election, and this one is his first.

The effort by police to make an end run to roust players and their rooms shows the DA is desperate for some kind of corrobating evidence. The story she is alleged to have told simply does not fit the DNA report.

And I have never heard anyone explain when and why she changed clothes.

[LisaL]

127. I guess we will find out soon enough.

I don't know about the clothes, but if she had made an ID, why did the DA ask for a court order forcing all 46 players to submit their DNA for tests? He must not trust her ID, or what? Why ask all 46, when there should have been three suspects only.

[Neil Lisst]

128. the DA fully expected to have incriminating DNA found on her

According to the affidavit filed by the police in support of the request for the search warrant, she said she was raped orally, anally, and vaginally, by all three, for 30 minutes. She also said they beat and choked her. Difficult to fathom how that could all happen and no DNA be transferred, not a pubic hair.

The DA seems to be playing for time, and figuring he has to indict someone or kiss the election goodbye. DNA found on the towel gives him something to hang his hat on.

[LisaL]

129. Wouldn't rape kit show right away if she had any semen in her?

I really don't know what this DA expected, and how he plans to proceed with this.

[Neil Lisst]

130. the rape kit would show if there was semen in her

I'm not sure what the timeline was from the time she left the house until the rape kit, but I believe it was around 3-6 hours. It seems the critical time that is somewhat in issue is about 12:40 AM to an hour or so later.

Recall that the police were not going to file a report OR take her to the hospital.

[LisaL]

175. If they did find DNA in her, why doesn't the DA looks for the

"real rapist", the one who left his DNA?
And if they didn't find any DNA in her, WTF were they trying to match all those 46 samples to?

[TorchTheWitch]

133. She probably cleaned up

After being raped, the first instinct is to wash. Since it supposedly took place in a bathroom, it would be damned difficult to leave with running water and soap right there in front of you. DNA was found on a bathroom towell which tells me that if she was raped, she did some cleaning up of herself. Four of her broken fake fingernails were also found in the bathroom, which indicates some kind of a struggle. Her examination was entirely consistant with forced sex. DNA evidence doesn't show up in one third of tests... if they used condoms, that statistic may be significantly more than one third. The DA was a flaming fool to be making claims that DNA evidence would be found on her.

[Neil Lisst]

134. I don't believe the fingernails support that theory

They did not appear to have come off during a struggle. If they had, they'd have some DNA. I heard a report on TV that said the fingernails were lined up, and that when she came out of the bathroom, her nails were freshly polished. Supposedly, there's some photographic evidence of that.

[Finder]

145. They were broken and consistent with a struggle.

Lack of DNA would be explained by scratching at clothing rather than skin.

[Neil Lisst]

152. They were not consistent with a struggle.

Sorry, but that's more wishful thinking on the part of those who can't accept she lied about happened.

[bettyellen]

147. feh, it's much harder to scratch with fakes. their edges are rounded

and very dull compared to the real thing. they don't even satisfy if you have an itch, unfortunately.
and the whole easy to break off thing- that totally depends on what kind. there's no way anyone can say. some are harder, some would fly right off. if people knew the first thing about fake nails, they'd know it's idiotic that people would even speculate.

[Neil Lisst]

151. feh, there's certainly no shortage

of "experts" here on things like the nature of fake nails, and the DNA they can or cannot show.

I think I'll stick with people who use science instead of opinion to reach evidentiary conclusions.

[bettyellen]

155. LOL i've seemn first hand- literally the diffference in fake VS

real in scratching during consensual field tests.
just trying to explain , they actually do not function the same as real nails. that's a false assumption.
and they can be much much harder or easier to break off. it depends on the type, as well as other factors.
so specualting on scratching or breaking is not scientific, it's wild speculation.

[Neil Lisst]

157. her story doesn't hold up, and her polishing her nails nails it

A rational explanation is that she broke a nail during her performance, went into the bathroom, took the other nails off and applied nail polish, possibly preparatory for her next appointment or job.

That's consistent with the nail polish allegedly shown in the photos and on the house stairway when she left.

[bettyellen]

159. i have no idea where the nail polishing story comes from

or the photos. last i heard about the photos was that the time stamping was not accurate as originally claimed.
is this more from the defense lawyers? can you link a source for these details?

only press ons could be taken off without an ordeal, meaning for acrylics you'd need a serious struggle or tools chemicals + time. so gels or acrylic would be really easier to tell what happened with either way. they are also incredibly dull at the tips.
pressons can fall off if you scratch your nose.

[BrownOak]

160. Trading links

I'll give you the link for the nail polishing if you can give me the link for the time stamping not being accurate.

http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-724585.html

[Neil Lisst]

164. thanks for posting the link to that thorough article

That's the timeline, the event line, and the nail polish involvement to which I made reference.

Also, she was wearing different clothes when she left the house from when she was found in the parking lot. She had to have changed in that time period. In the car? At another event? What happened during the missing times?

[bettyellen]

167. actually that was something i saw here, and it was from a tv show

some morning program. anyway that's why i was asking about it, and not claiming to have, info.

and the nail polish source is, bingo, the defense lawyers again. to keep it in context.
at least it's not the poor men need rights site or the pro defense Fox new analysis that are linked on this thread. i have never seen such sad ass llinks in my life, to be honest.

but there's so little out there that is unbiased, right?

[LisaL]

162. The time stamping is accurate. The photos show one guy

wearing a watch, and time matches.

[Neil Lisst]

165. That's my understanding, too.

The photos give a wealth of information, all of which appears to refute her claim and support the players. She was clearly down on the floor and showing cuts and bruises before she ever had the time to be raped.

The photos and lack of DNA on the woman will likely result in either no charges or charges that get dismissed eventually.

I'm concerned that the only crime here may be filing a false report.

[LisaL]

177. And Mr. Nifong, the DA, does not want to see them.

Gee, I wonder why.
"Defense attorneys said they offered to show the pictures to District Attorney Mike Nifong, but he declined to see them.

"As I understand the exchange, as it was reported to me, the DA is not interested in a discussion about our evidence," said defense attorney Bob Ekstrand.

Just as defense attorneys have said Nifong has not seen their evidence, they don't know what happened after police drove the accuser away.

"Something happened in the interim to cause her to be admitted into the hospital later that morning," Ekstrand said. "And we should be very interested to know what it was.""
http://www.wral.com/news/8751211/detail.html

[Neil Lisst]

178. that's unheard of - declining to look at evidence

I think the DA is doing that so he can go before the grand jury and if they ask "are there any photos?" he can say "I don't have any."

[LisaL]

179. I know. It boggles the mind. He is about to indict people

tomorrow, and he is refusing to look at evidence. Does it look to anyone that this guy is on the up and up?
Or what?
I mean, there are photos of the party in which the alleged victim was supposedly raped, and he does not want to see them?
Is that how our criminal justice system supposed to work?

[Neil Lisst]

180. this DA is in a vise, and he has community expectations to meet

he's trying to please the black community and women's groups, and that means indicting someone.

He figures to indict two, make them explain how their DNA got on the towel, and see who he can squeeze.

If this were Law & Order, they would be bringing the VIC in to go over the time lines in her story, and ask the questions any reasonable person would want asked.

[LisaL]

135. It was not her DNA on the towel.

This case seems to have more holes in it than fishnet stockings.
There is DA running his mouth saying DNA will identify suspects-well, it didn't.
Her supposedly torn off nails do not have any DNA on them belonging to any lacrosse players either.
There is photographic evidence indicating she tried to get back in after she left, to get her belongings back (according to the defense). I suppose after a gang rape, all one can do is try to get back to the rapist's house to retrieve their shoe? There is also that second stripper that was in the house with her. What was the second stripper doing during this vicious gang rape? But hey, if the DA is not bothered by any of this and thinks he can charge someone, why should any of us question this evidence, I guess.

[TorchTheWitch]

131. Costumes

Strippers don't strip out of their street clothes. You go to a gig in your street clothes, change into your costume, perform, and change back into your street clothes to leave. She may have been raped after she changed into her costume and changed back into her street clothes to leave afterward. Changing clothes is a non-issue... we all do that.

[Neil Lisst]

132. she was wearing the same thing when she left that she wore there

and reportedly, it was not torn or harmed.

That means some time after she left the house she changed into the other garment. We don't know when or why she changed into it, or what she did for the next hour.

[aikoaiko]

136. Her identity is all over the place online now too.

Its only a matter of time before someone posts her 2002 car theft/chase arrest record. I foresee it on smokinggun in 4.....3.....2......


Still, just because its ambiguous right now i withhold judgment and wait to hear more vetted "facts".

[rpannier]

137. Very thoughtful

I coomend you for pointing out facts and theories and for not getting really emotional either way.
It gives the reader (me) the opportunity to see the situation a variety of ways.
Thanks.

[aikoaiko]

138. FWIW: Heres a link to the the search warrant.

It gets interesting on page four so I started it there.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke4.html

[1932]

140. none of those "facts"are facts. They're all allegations.

It will take a trial to sort facts from allegations, and then give weight to alegations,

You won't be able to do that here.

Btw. if we could trust the media and defense lawyers to tell the truth, we wouldn't need trials.

[Neil Lisst]

153. the Search Warrant does show facts.

It shows what the police SAY she told them. It's a fact that the police swore that they took the statement from her and that it contained the statements they allege, which include her description of the crime.

If either she or the police vary from their story at trial, they will be cross examined harshly for trying to do so. She's stuck with the story that is told in that search warrant, and so is the DA.

The DA is stuck with bad facts regarding how she told the police the story and how the DNA evidence came out. The DNA evidence proves it did not happen as she alleged. Anyone who thinks any jury will believe her story, given the lack of DNA, the photos, the timeline, the 911 call, the change of wardrobe, and the lack of concern of the first responders - well, they're just not familiar with how cases get resolved.

This one couldn't even win a preponderence standard, muchless the much higher reasonable doubt standard.

The DA may indict, and he may keep peddling this bicycle through the election, but the case is dangling in the wind.

[Marie26]

154. It is very easy to get

an indictment from a grand jury (regardless of evidence). If the DA truly doesn't have any other evidence, I hope he'd be able to just drop the case. But this has become so publicized that I'm a little worried he may indict (or not) for political reasons. However, everything I've seen of this DA so far seems to show that he truly cared about this woman's allegations, & is trying to do the right thing here. I hope & trust that he will do the right thing, whatever that is.

[Neil Lisst]

156. yes, he can get an indictment simply by giving them the evidence he wants

The things he omits to show the grand jury could the evidence that tends to exculpate the players. He could give them all the evidence and let them decide. The indictment simply means there's sufficient evidence to support the prosecution's point of view.

DAs who have to run for office are POLITICIANS, and they're as likely as any defense attorney to shill for their side, to scuff the facts, and to give out slightly skewed information.

I don't have much confidence in the DA, simply because I think he's done a terrible job so far.

[Marie26]

185. He's in an impossible position

right now. Whatever he does, he is going to be criticized & slammed by somebody. I respect that he took these allegations seriously, and took on a powerful, wealthy school. So often, these kinds of incidents are just winked at or ignored. So, I do think he had good intentions here. But right now, it's starting to look like the case is dissolving around him. Still, we don't have all the evidence & there may be other evidence or witnesses we're unaware of. We'll just have to wait & see how this all turns out.

[1932]

181. Allegations to support a search warrant merely need to meet probable cause

standard. At trial, they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

The police wouldn't have even flushed out those facts at that stage to their fullest extent. Once they had probable cause, they would have executed the warrant.

I still say we won't know the facts until the trial and I think that it's borderline absurd to make the claims made in the OP.

[Neil Lisst]

182. They're still "facts" for purposes of cross examination by defense.

It has evidentiary value. It will be a basis for cross examination at trial, and the officer will have to explain his statements and how they could possibly be true.

She told a story to police, and the defense will be able to call those witnesses and say "she told you ..." and use the facts alleged in the affidavit to cross examine the police who made the allegation.

The DNA results (or non results) already bust out the case she told officers. There's no way the facts he alleged she told him could be true, and defense counsel will hang these inconsistencies all over the police and her.

[1932]

183. So what does the search warrant say that she said?

[Neil Lisst]

184. I posted a link somewhere here to smoking gun. It's there.

The problem is she is alleged to have said three guys raped her for 30 minutes, anally, vaginally, and orally, and beat and choked her, too.

The lack of any player's DNA on her, of any kind, seems to suggest her story isn't right.

here's page 4 from the probable cause affidavit for the search warrant:

[1932]

191. And the trial will address that.

Perhaps there's a good reason she didn't have DNA on her.

[Finder]

141. A few of your facts are incorrect...

lots of bullshit speculation.

[Francine Frensky]

158. Why would white boys request black strippers??

Just curious if there was some kind of ritual or hazing involved in any way.

Also, do men who watch strippers put on condoms before the show? I'm not male and just guessing here, but it seems logical that to avoid the mess and public embarrassment of "comeing" in your pants, especially if you're 18 or 19 and easily excited, a condom would be a reasonable caution

[LisaL]

161. They did not request black strippers.

[Francine Frensky]

168. So were they mad when black strippers arrived?

and that's how the whole thing turned ugly?

[BrownOak]

169. Well, according to them...

...or their attorneys, they were mad when the strippers only danced for 4 minutes. That's when things turned ugly.

[LisaL]

176. According to the players, both strippers locked themselves

in the bathroom. The players tried to get them to come out by slipping money under the door.
Now, that sounds real violent to me.
Not.

[Catchawave]

170. This bothers me more:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2229080&mesg_id=2229080

[sendero]

172. I have no opinion..

... on what happened or did not happen, but I LAUGH OUT LOUD at the very notion that it is possible to know an accurate percentage of false rape claims.

HELLO - you think there is some automagic truth discerner out there that after the trial goes "hey wait, this guy's not guilty"?

No, if you are convicted of rape you are guilty. And when I look at the overall integrity of our justice system I have zero confidence in any particular outcome unless the evidence was very strong. Lots of cases are decided on lies, emotion, racism, spin and disinformation, put into play by both the prosecution and the defense.

There is NO WAY TO KNOW how many people are in jail at this very moment for crimes they did not commit. NO WAY AT ALL.

[Marie26]

173. Likewise,

there is no way to know how many accused that were found "not guilty" were actually guilty of the crime. "Not guilty" doesn't mean innocent, it just means that the prosecution was unable to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

[sendero]

174. True..

... and there is no doubt that the guilty go free, probably a lot.