Dammit, I have yard work to do. But Lou is going to talk about another

[CatWoman]

attempt at getting him fired from CNN.

GET ME OFF THIS DAMN COMPUTER :)

[MissB]

1. No, you must stay and give us details.

[CatWoman]

2. A hispanic group is asking AOL to fire Lou Dobbs

the guy leading the group may run for Congress.

Saying Lou is "anti-immigration", and hates immigrants.

He refuses to be interviewed by CNN.

[blm]

4. Sounds like a Rovian front to attack Lou from anoher angle.

How long has the "group" existed? That's usually a telltale sign if they're actually another GOP operation.

[CatWoman]

6. that's a good question......

I wish I could give more info, but I've got 4 cats vying for my attention.

:hi:

they must be hungry :D

[ShortnFiery]

39. It won't work ... it's part of an elaborate waltz to keep wages low :P

[neuvocat]

3. Get Tivo.

Tivo is your friend.

[TahitiNut]

5. Folks who can't argue the issue on the merits attack messengers ...

... with name-calling and attempts to have them canned. I guess I don't have much sympathy with the epithet-flinging folks when I'm in agreement with Dobbs: It's the cheap-labor employers - the same corporatist predators who screw these people in Mexico's neo-colonial economic system!

See http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/110
and http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/198
and http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/189

[EFerrari]

27. I'm so happy to hear this. Please enlighten us

as to how posting post after post dissing brown workers impacts their felon employers.

All ears here, having shed you strawman. :hi:

[TahitiNut]

31. "Please enlighten us" is the mob rhetoric of bullies and cowards.

It's lacking in civility. Implying that anyone with whom you disagree is "dissing brown workers" is insulting.

I can very well understand how one's passions might make it difficult to maintain an objective and calm demeanor. But, sheesh!!!

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

32. Thank you, oh Censor of Rhetoric!

lol

Let's review: You've called me a bully and a coward. Do you have anything of substance to offer?

I'm all ears.

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

33. After you say "You are wasting your time" I seriously doubt ...

... you're "all ears." When I invest over 30 minutes composing a civil and informative post and receive that kind of dismissive and insulting crap, such a claim is laughable ... and pitiful.

[EFerrari]

34. Ad hominem, predictable. nt/

[TahitiNut]

36. I strongly recommend ...

Rarely have I ever seen the term ad hominem more inappropriately used. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

37. Peace. I'm not here to upset you.

Nor am I here to be punked by you.

"such a claim is laughable ... and pitiful."

[NorthernSpy]

54. having taken note of your contributions to this thread, among others...

... I strongly suspect that for many people, whatever tolerant impulses they may still have toward the illegals will exist more in spite of your customary rhetoric than because of it.

:think:

[EFerrari]

7. Catwoman, you know I'm a Latina and have read my ranting.

Make that shrill, obnoxious ranting.

Would this have anything to do with his racist memes, lol, or is it just the thought of the day?

I can't watch him. If I kill our teevee, there will be hell to pay.

[CatWoman]

8. I don't find his rhetoric "racist"

he is for secure borders, and holding corporations accountable.

I don't see anything racist about that.

[TahitiNut]

9. Nor do I.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

14. It adds up. Claims of how much undocumented workers

are costing -- even though not 9.9 of 10 on DU know what the balance sheet really is. If anyone does.

As if anyone in this government could make a budget or keep the books. Right now, it's estimated that undocumented workers put in 6 billion dollars a year into the SS fund that they will never collect on. But, forget that.

Those ridiculous accusations of how many jobs "illegals" are "stealing" from Americans -- even though if the playing field were leveled -- i.e, if wages were standardized, who do YOU think would be hired in most places?

And don't forget -- we MUST secure our borders against those Al Qaida nannys and gardeners. We NEED secure borders because the threat of al Qaida is so immanent. :rofl:

No, there's no xenophobia at work here. None. Whatsoever.

edit/ sorry, I should just hide these threads

[cornermouse]

17. Undocumented means illegal, correct?

[EFerrari]

Yes, as in the Republican meme "Law and order" =

segregation.

[cornermouse]

21. Come on now.

You know that illegal isn't the same as segregation.

And I don't think that observing the law is a purely republican belief either.

I understand desperation and the fact that some of them come because they are desperate. That doesn't give them the right to break the law in order to come here.

[EFerrari]

25. By the same logic, you can't teach black people to read

and women shouldn't own property (including themselves).

I'm here. Where are the rest of you? "Come on" my bald headed granny.

I don't understand why you all don't make common cause with other workers.

I don't understand why you all don't understand that hungry people will try to feed their families.

I don't understand why you all fall into the rightwing talking points.

I don't understand why you all don't see that making common cause with undocumented workers will only fuck the coporations that buy our politicians.

I don't understand why it's so much easier to blame the victms. Us AND them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Bravo woman!!

I concur 1000%.

Sure wish I could answer your questions.

[joemurphy]

26. If you were dirt poor and your kids were hungry,

what would you do? Jean Valjean was a lawbreaker in Les Miserables. Was Javert right to hound him for years because his stealing a loaf of bread was illegal?

[cornermouse]

38. What makes you think I haven't been dirt poor?

Its been a while, but I've missed meals to make sure my kids had enough to eat.

[Cleita]

45. No it doesn't.

It means that they don't have the right documents that allow them to work. A person can be here legally like a student but not have the visa that allows them to work while they are here. What's illegal is for employers to hire undocumented workers.

[TahitiNut]

29. While I suppose I'm wasting my time ...

... I'll try to shed some light on a couple of points.

First and foremost, just because Cocker Spanials bark does not mean that everything that barks is a Cocker Spaniel. (Let's also note, in passing, that there's a difference between racism and xenophobia.) More to the point, just because a racist (or xenophobe) wants to halt illegal immigration (and impose draconian penalties) doesn't mean that all people who want to halt illegal immigration are racists (or xenophobes). Whatever Lou Dobbs' motives might be, I happen to agree with him on a number of points: (1) Employers of 'undocumented workers' must be prosecuted and penalized and (2) The borders must be controlled/secured if ANY immigration laws (or customs laws) of any kind are to be meaningful.


Now, about that "6 billion dollars a year" -- You're referring to the Earnings Suspense File (ESF) which currently stands at about $520 billion. Social Security taxes collected under an account for which the name on the account doesn't match the name on the payroll are held in the ESF. This money is NOT available to pay current recipients of Social Security! (That, by the way, is the ONLY legitimate use of Social Security contributions!!) The General Accounting Office has issued several reports over the years regarding the ESF, which now contains over 250 million records, the vast majority coming from from industries such as "eating and drinking establishments and construction," and that, "a small portion of employers also account for a disproportionate number of ESF reports."

Every employer submitting Social Security collections for which such mismatches occur gets a formal notice from the Social Security Administration, soliciting a correction to the account information. Approximately 3,000 employers (out of many millions) constitute the vast majority of such notices, each with over 200 such notices. Even though it's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain that these are (knowing) employers of 'undocumented workers,' current laws prevent the use of this information to identify and prosecute them! (How's that for a Catch-22?)

Now, even though those funds cannot be used to pay Social Security benefits, they can be loaned out to to federal government. Thus, the ESF is Treasury notes - financing the debt and accumulating interest. These funds are NOT credited to a legimimate owner of the SSN.

OK ... that takes care of a brief description of that "6 billion dollars a year." It's a subject I'm familiar with, so let's please not pretend that my difference of opinion is based on some kind of ignorance of this issue. It's not. OK?


For an overview of the economic/jobs impact, for now I merely point to Paul Krugman's columns at http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032706O.shtml and http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040106G.shtml. A very important question must be: "Just how much of any industry's workforce can we have that doesn't have the right to vote??" Let's not forget that people disenfranchised from voting include ex-felons, particularly in the South and along our southern border. When they're not only prohibited from voting but are also unable to file a complaint with OSHA, or the Labor Department, just what does that mean about working conditions in this country?


I've made my position clear before. It's stated at http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/110


My grandparents and granduncle and grandaunt were Norwegian immigrants. My ex-fiancee was a Japanese immigrant, first on an H1B then a permanent resident (green card). I am neither a racist nor xenophobic. (There's no way I should even be required to say that!!) I am in favor of COMPLETELY DECOUPLING a worker's 'right' to reside in the United States from their employment. I oppose both H1B visas and illegal immigration, no matter where the person is from or what their ethnicity!! The very last thing I want is anyone who's afraid of being deported if they compain about unfair labor practices!! "Guest workers"?? Bullshit!

[EFerrari]

30. You are wasting your time.n/t

[nonconformist]

43. I think I love you.

There, I said it. :loveya:

[TahitiNut]

46. .

:blush: :hug:

[CatWoman]

47. hey!!! I saw him first!!!

:)

[TahitiNut]

48. Absolutely nothin' can ever separate me from my favorite melon licker.

(er... I mean 'liqueur.') :hide: :evilgrin:

:hug: :loveya: :yourock:

[CatWoman]

50. !

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

10. No -- that's cool. The part about Mexicans spreading

infectious diseases, not so cool. Especially with no credible source.

[CatWoman]

11. I haven't heard him say anything like that

please, tell me more.

[EFerrari]

15. About 10 days ago and I'll have to ask for a link.

He said undocumented workers were spreading TB, I think -- but I could be wrong on the disease.

It's just depressing. There are real ways we should be thinking about this and then he needs to kick "those dirty people will infect us" into the mix.

Let me see if I can find it or ask for it from all the DUers that have pm'd me about it.

:(

[EFerrari]

16. I've posted an OP asking -- and wait, there's more!

You know that outbreak of mumps in the midwest -- hate radio has also attributed THAT to Mexicans.

I'll ask for a source there, too, because when I read it, it was too depressing to really take in. :(

I can't listen to those broadcasts. But maybe some DUer with a stronger stomach than I have will weigh in.

[cornermouse]

18. You shouldn't listen to hate radio.

Raises your blood pressure, upsets your stomach, makes you angry for the rest of the day.

[EFerrari]

19. I can't! But I read the reports that DUers post. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I heard that!

I haven't turned him on since. In fact, I was going to stay away from this thread until I saw your name.

[retread]

12. I find his rhetoric xenophobic and it makes me cringe.

[joemurphy]

13. Not so much racist as divisive and non-pragmatic

Lou purports to handle immigration in a two-step fashion. First, he's for securing the border. (His way of doing it is a fence and more Border Patrol people. He's kind of easy on vigilantes too. Lou likes Minutemen). Then, he claims, we "deal with the illegals that are here". Lou never really says what "dealing with them" means. One thing's clear. He's opposed to an "amnesty". He says tonight he doesn't understand the need for any urgency to legalize the undocumented aliens that are inside the country. So keeping them disenfranchised, without drivers licenses, uninsured, and unable to live normal lives is OK with Lou.

I also hate Lou's interviewing style and his "polls" which are only a tad short of being moronic. Some love the guy. I find him an opportunist making a daily living kicking illegals. Tonight he's smarming up to Kyle and Cornyn, two of the most benighted of the prize group of Neanderthals that people the Republican Senate. Lou makes me spew. You that love him can have him.

[retread]

20. Please see link below.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=589

[joemurphy]

24. Good read. Lou's straight-talking honest journalism in action. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

35. Dobbs is pretty slick

He uses these same basic shtick as Rush Limbaugh uses and some liberals just eat it up. I don't get it?

After reading the list of thugs at the link you provided that Dobbs has featured on his show I don't see how anyone, much less liberals, would follow Dobbs to the bathroom.

But they do.

Don

[EFerrari]

42. Oh no! There you are, "playing the race card" -- apparently

what we do when we point out the incipient bigotry that permeates this debate. The brown people! :sarcasm:

I think I have half of DU on ignore. And I've been so upset, I bet half of DU has *me* on ignore.

You know something, every single Hispanic person I know has experienced racism. I can say that without any qualification. It's just a feature of our lives.

And it just grieves me because I'm an idiot that will still expect people to do better even as the fallout descends on my house. I believe in people. In their basic decency.

I still have to believe: We can do better. We can recognize that this is a Labor challenge. Those beautiful brown people, mis hermanos, are Labor. They are ready to be organized. The very second that that decision is made, the corporate fuckers that manipulate us all are out of business.

Well, Don, I've been irritating everyone for a couple of weeks. I guess I don't need to do that any more.

Thanks,
Beth

[AbbyR]

53. Y'know, I'm still trying to decide how I feel about the whole issue

On the one hand, I live in a heavily Hispanic area (just did a neat feature story on a Hispanic mom and dad who had triplets.) and I don't think I've met one Hispanic person since I've been here who isn't hard-working and totally dedicated to family, church and schools. On family night at the schools, we end up with more parents than children because each child has both parents and one or more grandparents in attendance.

The children I've worked with are beautifully behaved, obviously very much loved and cared for. They are the nicest kids I've ever met, and I'd still be teaching if I could teach an ESL class.

A teacher here, who is legal, is now without her husband because he went back to Mexico for his mother's funeral and now can't get back in legally. We are bombarding our representatives about that one.

Having said all of that, I'm still not sure I want open borders and total amnesty for illegals. I think a child who is here should be able to go to school, and if someone is hungry, he or she should be fed. I will never want to deny a hungry child food, or any child an education, but we simply can't take everyone into this country, can we?


As I said, I'm very torn on this issue and will have to learn more before I do anything more than ramble, as I have here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

52. I don't get it either

You are so right to compare him to rush.

[Hekate]

44. I've had to give up watching Lou since he got so stupid about immigrants

Can't really think of a better word than stupid, and racist will only get me flamed -- but you know, ol' Lou has gone off the deep end on the subject. And I'm an Irish-American.

Building an Iron Curtain will not help. Didn't work for the USSR, won't work for the US. And man oh man would it make the land of the free and the home of the brave look imprisoned and cowardly.

Pounding his desk with his shoe because people on marches DARE to wave the flag of their country of origin (or their parents' country of origin) does nothing to raise the level of discourse. Every ethnic pride parade in the history of the nation has people nostalgically carrying the flags of other countries. Before this, we mostly took that as as affirmation of our "melting pot" myth, not a sign of disloyalty.

We've got problems with our immigrant policies, but they are created in the capitals and boardrooms far from the fields and dusty migrant trails.

So Lou Dobbs, who for a time was every DUer's favorite conservative because of his "outsourcing of the middle class" series, has taken a turn for the ugly by demonizing immigrants, whether undocumented or not.

Anyhow, sfexpat, I think you and I are in agreement on this.

Hekate

[EFerrari]

22. Here's a link to what "Americans" are saying. There a ref to LD

is about 5 posts down.

http://www.alipac.us/article-topic-36.html

And here's to his own words, although I don't know it that's the report I remember:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0603/28/acd.02.html

It's ugly.

[w8liftinglady]

23. lol..me,too!

[EFerrari]

28. Catwoman, I'm sorry for screwing up your thread.

I really am.

On edit: I effen give up trying to show that these poor working brown families are being scapegoated.

There's nothing that I can say to this board that isn't met with fear. And I don't blame us/DU. The Thuggery has tried to scare the cr@P! outta us for the last 5 years.

peace,
Beth

[CatWoman]

40. Dont worry about it, Beth

:hug:

[EFerrari]

41. I am sorry, I should stay offa these threads.

It hits home and grown ups need to learn to deal with that.

Thank you.