TRUE PATRIOTS RARELY TAKE THE MOST POPULAR POSITION

[Jeffersons Ghost]

In a technical sense, whether a person is a patriot or not, depends on who you ask. For example, if every person in the Muslim world took part in a survey, Bin Laden would likely emerge as the most popular patriot on Earth.

To me, however, popularity has little in common with true patriotism. Defending traditional values at personal risk is certainly a consideration. I remember not long after 9/11, when a lone Senator stood to defend the Constitution in the face of tremendous adversity. After hearing of his actions, I realized that there are still a few patriots around, even in DC. but Russ Feingold did not inspire this thread.

While right-wingers will certainly argue the point, I find Jane Fonda, very patriotic. She was on the verge of a brilliant acting career, when she gave it all up for her values and became instrumental in ending a "police action" in South-East Asia. I saw her picture during a short blurb on CNN, as she released a statement that she regretted not taking a stronger anti-war position on Iraq. According to her comments, Ms. Fonda, labeled "Hanoi Jane" during 'Nam, believes her reputation might cause the war to last longer if she is more vocal. Certainly the publicity would benefit her personally but once again, she bites the bullet, so that fewer soldiers will taste one in another wasteful meaningless conflict that could more accurately be described as police action.

[Redstone]

1. She wasn't "instrumental" in jack shit. Her grandstanding actually hurt

the antiwar movement.

Redstone

[Jeffersons Ghost]

4. SMLE WHEN YOU SAY THAT RIGHT-WING REMARK

THIS GUN COULD GO OFF ANY MINUTE

[Terran1212]

11. When people act on what they believe is truth

They are always acting for democracy and for peace and against war.

When so few like Fonda do it it may seem to "hurt," but it's the right thing for everyone to do.

[Jigarotta]

17. doing the right thing always hurts

someone.
sometimes it's yourself.

I admire Fonda for what she thought was the right thing to do. She wasn't a slackass, that's what counts.

[Terran1212]

19. More people should do what they believe; then it becomes less hurtful

[Jigarotta]

22. in my small circle

I'm as popular as Jane.
:)
It's lonely, but somewhat gratifying in a way.

[Terran1212]

25. ^_^

[Jeffersons Ghost]

41. I know the feeling

I live in Alabama and I can't stand to go to bars anymore because I run into Vietnam heros who clain they served in the Green Barets or Seals. If you ever meet a real Seal, in person, you never get a chicken-hawk liar confussed with those critters.

Me, I never served in combat and I doubt that chick would have spit on me, had she known I was one of the guys tracking those soviet subs everyone was so scared of back then.

Yes, it's often lonely when you're doing the right thing in a world of hate, prejudice and fear.

[bryant69]

2. Good luck with this one

I'm not sure refurbishing Jane Fonda's reputation is possible, even among this crowd.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jeffersons Ghost]

7. certainly not amoung "this crowd."

I have no intention of attempting to refurbish her reputation here or anywhere else. As you see from the other two posts "this crowd" isn't as far left as one might think.

Jane Fonda tells it all tomorrow on Larry King Live.

i just heard it.

[ShortnFiery]

3. Oh gosh, Please forgive Jeffersons Ghost former military members ...

For he/she knows not what he/she is doing - fire in the hole!!!

Seriously, many family members and former combat vets can't even stand the mention of her name. She went to NORTH Vietnam which was, in the kindest assessment ==> UNCOOL!

With many men being held as POWs and others who had lost buddies and family members ... well, the thought of a fellow American "mixing with" what was enemy forces - she'll not ever be forgiven by some.

I forgive her. Yes, IMO, going to NORTH Vietnam was not Patriotic by any stretch of the imagination. However, as far as I'm aware, every other anti-war endeavor Jane Fonda was part of seems fully understandable, if not commendable given the turbulent times.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

5. YES PLEASE FORGIVE A VIETNAM WAR VET THAT WAS SPIT ON

By sanctimonious punks that had no idea how that felt, since, although in uniform, I didn't support the war. Where dd you serve ShortnFiery?

[ShortnFiery]

6. I had family members serve in Vietnam - combat OPS.

The mere mention of her name sets them off. It's emotional and it goes to the core of their being. Imagine being a POW at the time she was in North Vietnam?

Hey, I'm not saying that it is justified, only that it is real.

And my tongue-in-cheek comment is that IMO, the majority of Vietnam Combat vets and their families do not have a positive image of Jane Fonda. Many will not ever forgive her.

No, forgiveness is golden - we should all forgive, but it's not going to happen just because we will it to be so.

:-)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. that is more reasonable and less sanctimonious ShortnFiery

it's also quite true. I've met POWS in the past. Being spit on by some chick in an airport was troubling but pales in comparison to the price those patriots paid.

[Redstone]

10. Nobody got spit on in any airports. That's an Urban Legend.

Redstone

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

18. All RIGHTY, then! The second time I've been accused of being a freeper

in one night! It's a new record!

Don't know me very well, do you? It'd have been damn tough for me to have been in An Loc in 1972 if I was 12 years old now, wouldn't it?

Redstone

[Jeffersons Ghost]

45. know you and your experiences at least as well as you know me and mine

you're right, very few at DU know each other personally. That's why it's absurd to make broad sweeping statements about another's experiences.

[Heidi]

47. If you say it happened to you, I believe you.

But a 1971 Harris poll conducted for the Veterans Administration found over 90 percent of Vietnam veterans reporting a friendly homecoming.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/30/debunking_a_spitting_image/

[ShortnFiery]

12. There was NO difference "in content" of both my messages

above. I'm just relating the situation as I see it JG. I make these statements with no sanctimony and my purpose is to give you a differing opinion of someone who was a Family Member of a Combat Veteran.

Remember, you are the one who holds her up as a heroine. I respect her efforts but harbor no such sentiment. That does not make me sanctimonious, only genuinely human ... one who's life experiences have been much different than yours during the Vietnam War.

[Redstone]

9. You said it well. Well, indeed.

As vehemently opposed as some or all of us might be to this idiocy in Iraq (and there is likely none more vehemently opposed to it than I am), I'd not look favorably upon any American celebrity who went to Iraq and helped manufacture IEDs to kill American soldiers.

You posted well, and made a good point.

Redstone

[Jeffersons Ghost]

16. you called me a liar on something that happened to me and hurt me deeply

go get a life, instead of living an urban legend, redstone arsenal.

[Redstone]

20. So you'll stalk me through my answers to other people, then?

Be my guest.

Redstone

[Lerkfish]

13. you were actually, physically spit upon?

by Jane Fonda or anyone else?

I'm honestly curious. I"m 47, and I've have never run into anyone who can honestly say they were spit on as vets. oh, they mean it metaphorically, or they heard their friend of a cousin of theirs got spit, but I never honest to god met anyone at all who claims they themselves were physically spit upon.
When and where did this happen, and what were the circumstances?

thanks in advance.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

21. well now you have and if you'd listened to the news in the early '70s

you'd have heard of it more. once it gets a little publicity some fool feels the need to go out and do it!! I'm so glad to have all these experts to show me how it was back then.

[ShortnFiery]

23. Excuse me ...

I don't believe that I'm alone in NOT comprehending the point of this thread? OK, you believe Jane Fonda is a patriot and you claim to be a Vietnam Veteran?

Why the animosity?

You do understand why many vets do not share your view?

Live and let live?

Let's live in "today's world" and do what we can to stop this insane build up of the war machine?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

26. i'm about sick of idiots attempting to attack my credibility

and I'll waste no more words to prove who and what I am to people who never did anything but support a bunch of DC draft-dodgers.

[Lerkfish]

28. oh, ok, then, I guess you told us the truth becaused you refused to

give us any details.

works for me.

[ShortnFiery]

29. OK, then I'll take that as a "no" ?

:rofl:

[Lerkfish]

27. excuse me, I WAS there back then.

and I stand by my statement, I've never run into an actual person who claims to have been spit on.

by the by, you've not told the circumstances, when and where this event occurred.

I would think this would be firm in your memory, the name of the airport, were you returning from vietnam, that sort of thing, you know, the year and all that.

shouldn't be too hard to come up with.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

30. it's always the liars who are quckest to accuse another of lying

it justifies their actions. I will not bandy words with fools. Nothing I say would prove anything to you. Why waste my tme defending myself to those I have no respect for?

[Lerkfish]

32. exactly what did I lie about?

I'm 47. I was alive during vietnam. I watched a lot of tv and had a cousin up for the draft, I was very politically aware.

where have I lied? All I did was ask for some details about when you got spit on...how this equals a lie is beyond me.

oh, and btw, a quick google search on "spit" and "vietnam vets" comes up with a lot of interesting sites here's some reading for you...

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

Although Nexis overflows with references to protesters gobbing on Vietnam vets, and Bob Greene's 1989 book Homecoming: When the Soldiers Returned From Vietnam counts 63 examples of protester spitting, Jerry Lembcke argues that the story is bunk in his 1998 book The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam (click here to buy it). Lembcke, a professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam vet, investigated hundreds of news accounts of antiwar activists spitting on vets. But every time he pushed for more evidence or corroboration from a witness, the story collapsed--the actual person who was spat on turned out to be a friend of a friend. Or somebody's uncle. He writes that he never met anybody who convinced him that any such clash took place.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Did_protesters_spit_050803.htm

The editorial writer may be forgiven for a youthful memory, especially in light of today's propaganda that spawns Vietnam-era myths. The statement must be corrected, however, because it retains the impression that Vietnam vets were abused by protesters.

I served honorably in the U.S. Navy from 1962-1966. A few years later, I joined thousands of other vets in the antiwar movement who ardently supported the rights of those blacks, Hispanics and poor whites who were disproportionately drafted into the military.

Meanwhile, wealthy white boys like the current resident of the White House used family connections to find cushy spots in the National Guard; or they evaded military service altogether like Vice-President Dick Cheney. It's also important to note that "the peace movement" included anyone -- genuine peace activists, lunatics and provocateurs -- who spoke and acted in its name.

The vast majority of protesters, however, shared great sympathy and solidarity with American soldiers in the field, in the protest lines and in the halls of Congress where hundreds of vets threw their medals back to the government that spawned such human misery upon themselves and the peoples of Vietnam.

http://structureoflies.blogspot.com/2004/08/who-spit-on-vietnam-vets-not-anti-war.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. Heh. Keep digging.

Right now, your credibility is in the "if he tells you 2+2=4, check with a calculator" level.

Year and location. Is it THAT hard?

[mondo joe]

15. I wonder how you arrived at "rarely".

I don't believe patriotism is linked to popularity - so I don't believe it corresponds to popularity one way or the other.

I wonder how you arrived at the rate of "rarely".

[Jeffersons Ghost]

24. any coward can act patriotic when it's popular

while many patriots in history are indeed popular today, men like George Washington weren't popular when they crossed the Delaware. I doubt his men loved him when frostbite took ther bare feet.

[Redstone]

31. Well, they wouldn't have continued to follow him despite the frostbite

if he wasn't "popular," would they?

But they did, didn't they?

So, tell me: If you consider Jane Fonda to have been a patriot back then, posing on an AA gun emplacement that was there to shoot down American airplanes, would you consider a current celebrity to be a patriot if they went to Iraq and posed with people making IEDs, or were photographed helping them make the IEDs?

I'm interested in your perspective on this question.

Redstone

[Jeffersons Ghost]

34. I didn't think she was patriotic back then

She reminded me of the chick that spit at my uniform back then but tonight my heart was changed, until I heard a promo a little later about a damn interview she is taking part in on Larry King. That pissed me off and, had I heard it before, we wouldn't be talking now.

On another note, I have nothing to prove to ANYONE at DU or anywhere else, especially reich-wingers.

Jane Fonda's actcions are indicative of attitudes in '73 when I got my wake-up call about narrow-minded fools who judge first and ask questions later.

like a favorite group of mine, before you question WHO I am, prover WHO you are. Tell me. who are you? How will you fell when I accuse you of lying? On second thought, perhaps some of you have proven who you are already with your posts on this thread.

[Redstone]

35. Who am I? Nobody. Just a guy who was wounded in combat, that's all.

And I already told you where and when. Take that as you wish, and be it as it may. And that "favorite group of yours" is welcome to do the same.

Two words: 1) Counseling. 2) Sleep.

Redstone

[Jeffersons Ghost]

37. prove it!

prove what you write beyond he shadow of a doubt! Unlike you, I have enough class not to call you a liar. While talk is cheap, typing questionable information in on a thread is much cheaper.

[Redstone]

38. No. I have scars that say I have to prove nothing to you. Or anyone.

The dead visit me in my dreams every night. They're all the proof that I need.

Remember my advice: 1) Counseling. 2) Sleep.

Redstone

[Jeffersons Ghost]

39. well you damn sure don't have the market cornered on "scars."

and you've proven nothing!

[Redstone]

40. End of conversation.

Redstone

[mondo joe]

33. I believe you have failed to address my question.

While many patriots are unpopular, how does it follow that they are mostly unpopular?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

36. I will do this:

I'll save everyone who reads this the trouble of reading back to the OP to see how you're twisting my words once again.

WHERE DO I SAY "they are mostly unpopular?"

In a technical sense, whether a person is a patriot or not, depends on who you ask. For example, if every person in the Muslim world took part in a survey, Bin Laden would likely emerge as the most popular patriot on Earth.

To me, however, popularity has little in common with true patriotism. Defending traditional values at personal risk is certainly a consideration. I remember not long after 9/11, when a lone Senator stood to defend the Constitution in the face of tremendous adversity. After hearing of his actions, I realized that there are still a few patriots around, even in DC. but Russ Feingold did not inspire this thread.

While right-wingers will certainly argue the point, I find Jane Fonda, very patriotic. She was on the verge of a brilliant acting career, when she gave it all up for her values and became instrumental in ending a "police action" in South-East Asia. I saw her picture during a short blurb on CNN, as she released a statement that she regretted not taking a stronger anti-war position on Iraq. According to her comments, Ms. Fonda, labeled "Hanoi Jane" during 'Nam, believes her reputation might cause the war to last longer if she is more vocal. Certainly the publicity would benefit her personally but once again, she bites the bullet, so that fewer soldiers will taste one in another wasteful meaningless conflict that could more accurately be described as police action.

ALL THAT I SAY RELATING TO THIS IS: "To me, however, popularity has little in common with true patriotism."

[ShortnFiery]

43. Understood JG, and your point is well taken ...

Albeit I don't share your perspective, I also don't question that your beliefs are genuine. Believe it or not, I was not fully aware how important this issue / point is to you. Now, I'm getting a better impression. I'm sorry for being glib earlier - nothing personal. :hi: :-)

[KyuzoGator]

42. By your rationale, Bush supporters are "true patriots"...

...being as how they are now in a very unpopular position (34% last I checked).

[Jeffersons Ghost]

44. they are patriots according to them

but, no, I don't put forth the notion that anyone supporting an unpopular cause is patriotic. Perhaps go re-read the OP.