Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted - alternate version

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I think it looked like we needed a thread that did not start out assuming that the people on the Grand Jury were mindless bots who could not process information for themselves and that the players are innocent regardless of any evidence to the contrary. While an indictment is not a conviction - it isn't "nothing", either.

Please DO NOT combine with the thread that assumes there was no rape. Thanks.


Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

DURHAM, N.C. -- Courthouse sources tell WRAL that a grand jury has returned sealed indictments against two Duke University men's lacrosse players in connection with an exotic dancer's allegations that she was raped.

Because the grand jury meets in a closed session not open to the public, it is not known which members of the lacrosse team were indicted. Defense attorneys, who have said they expected indictments Monday, said they do not know who was charged. That information will not be made public until arrests are made in the case. When arrests will be made is unclear.

Typically, the grand jury, comprised of 18 anonymous citizens, is presented evidence by the lead investigator and only hears the prosecution's side of the case. In this situation, jurors likely heard the alleged victim's statement, saw the hospital report and perhaps viewed pictures of possible injuries.

http://www.wral.com/news/8764906/detail.html

more versions:

http://news.google.com/news?client=safari&rls=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&percentage_served=100&tab=wn&ncl=http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7003215195&hl=en

[Mend]

1. I believe she was raped but I doubt she will get justice. eom

[bloom]

5. It doesn't look good

when you have people around here posting "the story" and they are only posting what the Defense Attorney says.

I have some hope that a jury that has the evidence will actually consider both sides - and that something will come of it. I think the deck is stacked against the victim, though.

[Jigarotta]

7. hahahahahahah! Justice?

it left with the gold train, federal reserve thingie, JKF, conductor Bush has the dead mans brake. ooo, feel safe?

it's always been unjust. and we all know it. not specifying this case alone.
You KNOW there's no true justice. Façade.

[MrModerate]

2. Hard to tell, but on balance . . .

Grand juries usually get it right when they see the smoke and infer fire. From what I've seen of the prosecutor, he didn't seem to be the sort of publicity hound who'd do this for yuks or his 15 minutes. Especially given that if this is a frivolous prosecution, he's ruined.

But, we. don't. know.

[bloom]

3. Blog link:

http://justice4twosisters.blogspot.com/

Links to various news stories about this, etc.

[smtpgirl]

4. So the Duke LAX players beat out for the news

What about the Lady TERPS, so much better that this BS


FUCK DUKE

String 'em up, I know lax players

[timber84]

33. Please do tell, I can't wait to hear you describe my 16 yeard old son.

[FredScuttle]

6. The difference between this news and the DNA results

is that you won't find posters who have supported the victim obnoxiously demanding apologies from those who support the players. This is far from over.

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8. It's pretty interesting when you consider

the reaction of the board to Grand Jury indictments by Fitzgerald. You would think that Libby was convicted already.

Not so with this case.

I expect that there are quite a few people who wouldn't even admit that the woman was raped even upon a conviction (since the Defense attorney will deny it).

It's good to have the case handed down by the Grand Jury - instead of it being just the decision of the DA.

[bloom]

9. "What bothers me about Duke"

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-bothers-me-about-duke.html

"It didn't hit me until mid-bagel today, why I didn't like the way the Duke story was being spun. Forget race for a minute, because if you don't think that couldn't have been a blonde hair, blue-eyed freshman girl, you're kidding yourselves. It may have been in the past. But she might just be at a different school, with a large therapy bill.

This is about women...."

[noamnety]

26. He makes a good point

and one I haven't heard discussed much. He's right - if a person showed up at my doorstep with severe injuries, bruises, swollen eye, etc. the last thing on my mind would be to take photos of them, then have them come in to entertain me. Aside from the fact that I am personally repulsed by the whole strip club scene, I can't fathom finding an injured beaten person to be a turn on, or thinking that they would add to a party atmosphere, in any way.

[Dogmudgeon]

10. It's a tough case

It requires the level of maturity to understand that both the presumption of innocence of the accused and support for the victim can be exercised. That's a tough state of mind and legal functioning to achieve.

I still say we should make the effort.

--p!

[bloom]

11. I would think

that a grand jury indictment might put and end to the nonsense about there not being a case and the idea that some have that it is the woman who is guilty - of lying.

So presumption of innocence or not. I think just about anybody who has read anything about this - is making one presumption or another. That either there was a rape or not. And those who think that there wasn't are not giving the woman the benefit of presumption of innocence.


Of course - I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a rape took place. And to figure that whomever is accused is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. One could assume they might have charged the wrong people - and those charged certainly have a right to a defense - instead of assuming that there was no rape. (I don't think that alleged rapists have a right to an offense).

[killbotfactory]

16. Strange isn't it?

I think just about anybody who has read anything about this - That either there was a rape or not. And those who think that there wasn't are not giving the woman the benefit of presumption of innocence.

The people who scream the loudest that the Duke players our innocent until proven guilty, are the first to denounce the woman as a liar and demand apologies.

I don't think anyone has enough information to make an definitive decision on this case, since the trial hasn't even started, although we can make certain guesses. And I don't think anyone who thinks the men are guilty would want the accused punished without a fair trial first. This is a message board, not a friggin' court of law.

[bloom]

29. "This is a message board, not a friggin' court of law."

Exactly.

And another thing I was thinking about is that these cases end up being "The State" vs. So & So.

"The State" is us. If people didn't think that there was a case worth pursuing - then no cases would ever come up. It is pretty annoying having people trying to suggest (esp. before the indictments and arrests) that NOBODY should be thinking that those guys could have committed a crime. THAT is exactly the thinking that gets too many of these cases dismissed.

The idea that supporting the victim and expecting charges to be filed is somehow detrimental to the victim (as some people have suggested) just sounds nuts to me.

And I don't remember seeing anybody defending any other alleged criminals like people do rapists. It's pretty weird.

[bloom]

12. "Two arrests made in Duke lacrosse case"

Duke University lacrosse players Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty were charged today with first degree forcible rape, first degree sexual offense and kidnapping in connection with a reported rape at a Duke lacrosse party, according to George Naylor, director of the Durham County Jail.

Bond was set for each player at $400,000, Naylor said.

Seligmann, a sophomore from Essex Fells, N.J., and Finnerty, a sophomore from Garden City, N.Y., emerged from a sheriff's deputy vehicle and were led, handcuffed, into the magistrate's office at 4:54 a.m. today.

Just after 7 a.m., Seligmann and another man left the jail and ran to a Ford Explorer with New Jersey license plates. They pulled onto Pettigrew Street and went to the traffic light at Pettigrew and Mangum streets. They stopped at a red light, waited for traffic to clear, and then turned left, running the red light....

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/429871.html

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13. "Finnerty charged with assault in D.C."

"Collin Finnerty, one of two Duke University lacrosse players charged in the reported rape of a dancer at a March 13 party, has been arrested before....

According to court records, Finnerty and two former Chaminade teammates attacked a man who was driving by The Georgetown Inn on Wisconsin Avenue in the early hours of Nov. 5, "busting his lip and bruising his chin."

The man said that he told them to stop "calling him gay and ... derogatory names."

Finnerty, who entered a diversion program, was ordered to perform 25 hours of community service in Washington by fall, said his attorney, Stephen J. McCool. If he performs the service and avoids new arrests, the assault charges will be dropped, McCool said."

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/429880.html

[gkhouston]

34. well, he blew it on the "avoiding new arrests" part

so will he be charged with assault in the DC case after all?

[Spike from MN]

22. Sounds like the victim was drugged.

Here's a snippet of an interview with the other stripper:

The woman said she arrived thinking that she would be dancing at a bachelor party of 15 people. She was not expecting a party of lacrosse players, many of whom she said were in a drunken stupor. The woman said she was infuriated to learn that some players photographed her dancing.

The accuser did not appear to be on drugs or to have been drinking when she arrived, the second dancer said. She was "absolutely fine and in control of herself."

When the accuser left, less than an hour after she arrived, she was incoherent and stumbling, the second dancer said.

"She couldn't really walk on her own," the woman said. "She really couldn't get her thoughts together enough to answer any questions. ... She was a different person than I met at the beginning."

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/429871.html

I'm no expert but I don't see how someone can go from being apparently sober to being "incoherent and stumbling" in the course of an hour unless there were drugs involved, like maybe a date rape drug. That fact that the police officer reported she was "just passed out drunk" yet the medical exam didn't mention her being drunk could also supoort the theory that she was drugged. I don't know how much time elapsed between the police officer's report and the medical exam but I doubt it was enough time to sober up if she really was that drunk. Sounds more likely to me that she was drugged and the drugs wore off. I don't know if she was tested for drugs during the medical exam but it will be interesting to see how this pans out.

[bloom]

23. That's what it sounds like to me too.

Some people seem(ed) to be trying to make out that the woman being passed out afterwards exonerated the men. That doesn't make any sense to me.


I think they are grasping at straws.

[Spike from MN]

24. Everyone knows that if she was drunk

it wasn't rape. :sarcasm: Make that double sarcasm. :sarcasm:

That's right up there with:
   If a woman is wearing a short skirt, she's "asking for it."
   If a woman is sporting any cleavage, she shouldn't even remotely consider pressing charges.

I'd add the sarcasm tags for that but a.) it's not necessary and b.) it's only half-sarcasm because these are just the types of arguments the defense will use in cases like this. And people will believe them.

The first I heard of the second stripper's story was in the article you linked. (Thanks for that BTW.) Granted, I watch very little TV but even with what little I watch, I did see the coverage of the police officer's statement regarding the victim being passed out drunk. Did they mention the second stripper's story on the TV news and I missed it (which is very possible) or is her story being ignored by the MSM? Just wondering.

[bloom]

27. I don't actually watch MSM - corporate media - much

so I don't even know what their take on it is - other than what is quoted by someone else.

[genie_weenie]

14. Why are only 2 indicted?

What happened to the third? She accused 3 players, right?

"While an indictment is not a conviction - it isn't "nothing", either." That's a real razor's edge your dancing on here, because the default setting on our legal system is supposed to be Innocent until the State proves your guilt. Not like the State knows anything about Justice, though...

Of course, the real problem is the damage this has done to other victims of sexual assault who will not come forward.

[bloom]

15. My guess

is that they only have the evidence to go to trial against two. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a third. It just means that there isn't enough evidence - positive identification or whatever.

It really doesn't make sense to say that there is no reason to think that these two did anything - or else why not have trials against random people picked off the street.

There has to be "probable cause" to begin with - and then we move up to "beyond a reasonable doubt" after that. (Not beyond ALL doubt as someone around here seemed to think).

[genie_weenie]

17. Sure, I think the DA can make a case

but, the only evidence I know about is the victim's statement and the medical report that she was raped.

And the US has too long of a history of picking people up based on flimsy or non-existent evidence.

And both the State and the Defense have gone to the media to try this case, most likely, because each feels it will aid them, not out of a sense of indignation.

Remember Nifong was raging at the temerity of the 46 players in hiring counsel, I mean why should they do that? There's no reason not to prostrate oneself at the foot of your master (The State) unless you've got something to hide...

[bloom]

18. "raging at the temerity"

I am curious to know what he actually said.

I was wondering how weird it seemed - them all having the SAME attorney. (I don't know how usual or not that is). Seems like that would make it more likely that they would create a story together - than if they had separate attorneys. Seems like it makes it easier to "obstruct justice".

[DelawareValleyDem]

19. Third indictment may happen soon

DURHAM, N.C. - Two Duke University lacrosse players were arrested early Tuesday on charges of raping and kidnapping a stripper hired to dance at an off-campus party, and the district attorney said he hopes to charge a third person soon.


The indictments, unsealed Tuesday, did not indicate what possible evidence or arguments led the grand jury Monday to indict Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, both 20. District Attorney Mike Nifong would not discuss the evidence.

"It had been my hope to charge all three of the assailants at the same time, but the evidence available to me at this moment does not permit that," Nifong said. "Investigation into the identity of the third assailant will continue in the hope that he can also be identified with certainty."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060418/ap_on_sp_co_ne/duke_lacrosse

edit to remove extraneous data

[Alcibiades]

36. That's not evidence that the victim is lying

Maybe Nifong has not got enough evidence to indict him. Yet.

Or he may be cooperating.

Either way, the default setting should be that they are innocent until proven guilty, but it should not be the default setting that the victim must, for some reason, be lying.

I expect that, when justice is rendered in this case, it will encourage other victims to come forward. That is what the victim in this case cited as her reason for coming forward.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

20. I'll say to you

exactly what I've been saying to the people who assumed that the woman was lying: wait and see.

It's not possible to be sure either way on the evidence available in the media. It's none of our business. Nothing we say here, on either side, will make any difference to anyone, except to make things worse. No matter who's telling the truth, the lives of all those involved have already been blighted. The coverage of this case will discourage other women from coming forwards, even if the players are convicted.

All in all, the whole story is a sorry mess that has been seized on by the media because scandal sells. Don't make it any worse; wait and let the jury do their job.

[bloom]

21. It's also been seized on by many sports fans

who just can't stand to think that their heroes could be convicted of anything. Just like the Kobe Bryant case.

Like how dare any woman expect to see justice against such "gods" as them.

That's the notion that I would like challenged. And the idea that the sports guys have so much to lose - but the victim does not.

[genie_weenie]

25. I think you're wrong about the "many sports fans"

Several books detailing out the crimes of Sports Stars were printed in the 90s. And the whole NBA dress code issue was in large part to the dropping attendance and revenue for the NBA (the brawl in Detroit in Nov 2004 is still a open sore in many sports fans minds)

Pros and Cons : The Criminals Who Play in the NFL, if I knew how to hyperlink it I would but here's this link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446524034/sr=8-2/qid=1145382098/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-8404655-5238356?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Out of Bounds : Inside the NBA's Culture of Rape, Violence, and Crime
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00076F0DY/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/104-6722899-3915123?%5Fencoding=UTF8

So, I take issue with your notion that sports fans are willing to turn a blind eye to the egregious crimes of those they idolize.

[bloom]

28. Around here - quite a few of the most aggressive defenders

of the alleged rapists have had sports avatars - so that seems like a clue.

[timber84]

32. ohh please I bet you assume all those posters are men too

what an awful stereotype.

[bloom]

30. "She may have been slipped a date-rape drug in a mixed drink..."

(I must have missed this - I'm posting it here because I don't want to start a new thread about it)

Exclusive: Accuser in Duke Rape Case May Have Been Drugged

UPDATED: 2:39 pm EDT April 15, 2006

DURHAM, N.C. -- An unnamed source close to the investigation of a reported rape near the Duke University campus has told NBC 17 News that someone might have drugged the accuser the night she claims three lacrosse members raped her.

"She may have been slipped a date-rape drug in a mixed drink she was given by one of the lacrosse players shortly after she arrived,” the source told NBC 17 late Friday.

"Her condition is said to have changed dramatically in a short period of time, from being completely sober on arrival to passing out on the floor in a short period of time."

Also:

"But attorneys also noted that three people at the party aren't on the lacrosse team, and none of them have submitted DNA samples to authorities for testing."

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8694922/detail.html

[rd_kent]

31. Looks like one of the boys can PROVE he didnt do it.

So for all you out there screaming for heads to roll over the "alleged" rape, the prosecutor may have indicted the wrong guy.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1

Apparently, he has an airtight alibi.

[WI_DEM]

35. That story, if true, would certainly be compelling evidence for the

defense. I wonder what the prosecution has?

[Alcibiades]

37. If it's the same lad

Perhaps he lent his ATM card to someone else.