Republicans are sick freaks: Purity Ball = girl version of NAMBLA?

[BlooInBloo]

Young girls dressing up like prom, basically to go on a date with their dad, dance with him and other dads, and in the end promise daddy to not give it up until they're married.

Check out the site behind Digby's post - it's freaky - looks like what I would expect "NAMGLA" to look like, if there were such an organization.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_digbysblog_archive.html#114537999061146139

Even if it's innocent and not incestuous, (a) it gives that strong impression, and (b) it's still sick for daughters (but NOT sons of course) to do this.

[JuniperLea]

1. Well, to be fair...

This is a very old tradition and it really is the first time I've ever seen an evil light shone on it.

I know a couple of dad's who take their daughters to the father dinner dance every year at a couple of well-heeled old school clubs every year. I've always thought of it as a cute old tradition.


Edited to say... the purity oath seems a bit, erm, Puritan. To each his own. There are still people who believe this way and, to be perfectly honest, it's their right.


I'm pretty stinking "live and let live". People tend to forget that in order to have the right to their own beliefs, they have to let other people have their own as well.

[bryant69]

4. That was my reaction to this as well.

Just shows the way the world has changed I suppose.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bryant69]

16. I am childless

But you right i am a sick bastard who should be ashamed himself, and I'm one step away from child raping incest. It was observant of you to notice that and courageous of you to point it out. Frankly DU needs more people like you, people who aren't afraid to suggest that people are potential child molesters. DU is a little too prim and prissy and "genteel." So it's a breath of fresh air to see someone like you willing to go all out in pursuit of your beliefs.

I salute you stanwyck!

Bryant

[stanwyck]

24. thanks! n/t

[JuniperLea]

25. lol!

[JVS]

166. What the hell happened?

[NYCGirl]

28. Isn't that what "giving the bride away" at a wedding is all about? NT

[JuniperLea]

37. Yep, exactly

Hey, I was a virgin when I married. I don't regret it. It's not for everyone. That's why we have this thing we hold so dearly... it's called freedom of choice. Don't ever let anyone take that away from you!

[stanwyck]

47. modern couples

don't include that part of the old-fashioned ceremony. That went away with the Wedding March.
I didn't include in my marriage and that was a LONG time ago.

[NYCGirl]

53. I guess I know lots of old-fashioned folks here in little old prudish

Manhattan.

[stanwyck]

67. no doubt

I guess I'm just lucky.

[NYCGirl]

76. And you know, even though all of the couples I've known who've married

fairly recently have been living together for years, the bride still wants her dad to "give her away". It makes the Dad happy, makes him feel special, and doesn't hurt anyone. I guess I'm just lucky that way.

[JuniperLea]

95. lol!

Yes, as puritan as Manhattan is, there is still some freedom of choice;)

[DaDeacon]

80. Really a close friend of mine got married last week

and his wife WANTED to be given away by her father and they had a barefoot march to a DJ mixed version of the wedding march. Modern has nothing to do with it.

[Katherine Brengle]

113. I think that like any tradition, for many it has lost its meaning and is

just a nice gesture of love between a parent and child.

I chose not to do it at my wedding, and I do find it completely creepy, but that is because I happen to see it in its historical light when most people clearly do not.

[stanwyck]

141. Did the "giving away" include

Dad verifying her chastity? Was she guaranteed intact merchandise? No chips or scratches? I can't believe you're defending this creepy Dad/Daughter "purity" ceremony involving little girls dressed up as Daddy's date. And the subject is keeping little Susie "unbroken" until Daddy can hand her over to her new owner.
I have this Twilight Zone feeling that DU has been invaded by Islamic fundamentalists. Is that what has happened?

[JuniperLea]

158. Actually, there are customs that include verification of virginity

There is a European custom of the wedding pillow... it's placed under the woman on the wedding night so when her virgin hymen bleeds, there's the proof. Another custom... if the woman is not a virgin, the husband cuts his hand and bleeds on the pillow so his wife will not be embarrassed... the blood-stained pillow is presented to her father.

There is also the tradition of the chivaree... your best buds hang around outside your bedroom window on your wedding night, serenading, making a lot of noise... a sort of teasing. This might piss some folks off... but it's a harmless tradition and people have the right.

[Inland]

125. Just as much as the white bridal gown is. IOW, not really. nt

[kerry-is-my-prez]

144. Scary - I sort of agree with them - it gave me the creeps too.

n/t

[TAPat]

5. But do they make them swear to remain

virgins until they give themselves as "wedding presents" to their husbands?

[JuniperLea]

7. That gave me pause... see my edit to post above...

Edited to say... the purity oath seems a bit, erm, Puritan. To each his own. There are still people who believe this way and, to be perfectly honest, it's their right.


I'm pretty stinking "live and let live". People tend to forget that in order to have the right to their own beliefs, they have to let other people have their own as well.

[JuniperLea]

29. Very Victorian, isn't it?

It's their right. They aren't saying the little girl has to be raped repeatedly by her father until her husband gets to take over. This is old fashioned, yes. But it's people's rights to choose. They can believe in God, Buddah, The Flying Spaghetti Monster... beliefs are choices.

If we go around taking choices away from people, we have to expect that we shouldn't have them either. It's called live and let live. It's a very liberal point of view, actually.

To call someone stupid or creepy because of their beliefs is not nice.

[Scout]

112. taking choices away from people

seems to me that the one whose choice is being taken away is the GIRL who is forced to swear an oath that she may or may not be able to understand, and may not be ready to keep if she does understand it. But there she is in front of daddy and those other people, and if she DOESN'T take the oath what will happen?

If the girl really does understand and freely choose to remain a virgin until marriage, I'm sure the oath is unnecessary anyway, so why bother?

[JuniperLea]

99. Is there a law against pre-marital virginity

I was a virgin when I got married and my husband was ultra thankful for the "gift"... if that's what you choose to call it.

[Katherine Brengle]

115. Aww...

that's sweet.

I think the part that creeps people out is promising one's father that one will remain a virgin until marriage--also, that there is no such tradition or social requirement for males, which is completely ridiculous.

Part of me thinks it would be nice if everyone waited, but it shouldn't be required of anyone as an expectation of another--that's not healthy.

[JuniperLea]

119. You are right... it may not be healthy

And there is a double standard, without questions.

My point is all about individual rights, parental rights, etc.

I don't think young kids should be tattooed either, yet it is tradition in Samoa and other island nations... It's their right and I support their right... even if I think it stinks.

There's a little old Catholic woman down the street that was taught that gays were an abomination. I don't agree with her, but it was part of her upbringing and she has the right to keep true to her strict Catholic heritage. I think it's bogus, but it's part of her choice and her right. Now, if she were to go around hurting gays because of this, that is where the line is drawn.

[REP]

150. As I'm Sure You Were Thankful for Your Husband's Virginity

I'm sure you were worth waiting for.

[JuniperLea]

159. Yes, I was

On both counts:)

We grew up together in that way. Rare.

[stanwyck]

8. Cute old tradition?

Yikes. Like other "cute old traditions"...condoning domestic abuse, denying women the vote, equal pay, and equal access to higher education?
Why is a woman's sexuality still considered a "gift" that Daddy protects until he can "give" her to her husband?
Sometimes "live and let live" means some people aren't living all that well. Lots of sins are smoothed over with that kind of Pollyanna attitude.

[bryant69]

12. Jumping to the big gun right away, eh?

"Condoning Domestic Abuse." Yeah that's probably what he or she meant.

Bryant

[stanwyck]

17. what do you expect

from the mentality that expouses Daddy "giving" the daughter to her husband? And then the new owner gets to do what he will with his new possession.
American Taliban. Right here at DU.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stanwyck]

27. Did you even read the article?

Look at how young those girls are...and Daddy is already making "purity" an issue?
These girls are the focus of a sexually themed ceremony...and they're not even in puberty?
And how are you disguising the females as chattel issue? The daughters are a gift from Dad to Husband. (read the article).
How 18th century is that?
You think this is normal behavior for a father? In 2006?

[JuniperLea]

33. Yes I read it

And it is very Victorian, for sure. Still, there are hundreds of thousands of Jews and Christians who believe women should be virgins when they are married. The traditional wedding ceremony supports the belief... white dressed virgin and all. Yes, I think it is normal behavior for a father in 2006... for some, not all. It's a choice you see. Some women keep themselves a virgin until they are married! Shocking! Get used to it. Chattel? Good grief.

You want to take away choice? Then be prepared to have a few of yours taken away as well.

You are clearly too closed minded to grasp the idea of choice.

[Lindacooks]

39. Wow, you sure have something invested in this.

Do you feel the same way about boys remaining virgins until they are married?

[bryant69]

42. I'm not going to speak for anybody else

But in my belief it's exactly the same thing. Males and females should remain virgins.

The double standard that has existed through the decades is an evil thing, through and through.

But everybody is entitled to their own beliefs.

[JuniperLea]

49. Glad you get it

I'm sure I'm coming off as some sort of loon to those with minds so closed they cannot see another point of view.

All I'm saying is there are certain rights that people have, parents have, men and women have. We should support individual rights, not condem them just because we don't share the belief.

[BeTheChange]

111. Heaven forbid..

anyone advocate restraint. ;)

I dont think you sound like a loon.

[tigereye]

212. parents don't actually have the right

to force adolescents of a certain age not to be sexually active. What, is the chastity belt next? It would be better if teens weren't sexually active too young, but there are a variety of ways to support positive choices, as well as sensible ones - i.e., education, positive activities, sports, birth control, what have you.

Should I be waiting for you to defend abstinence - only education and the banning of birth control next?

Sorry, but your argument makes me cringe for some reason. The words "choice" and "another point of view" just don't sound true to me.

[JuniperLea]

214. You are kidding, right?

No one human being can FORCE another to do anything! They can teach, cajole, instruct, yada yada yada... but you cannot force. Parents absolutely DO have the right to INSIST that their children not have sex until they are adults! Furthermore, any parent that doesn't take that seriously and who doesn't talk to their kids about such things are feeding them to the lions! Regardless of the outcome or the decision, those communications MUST happen. To leave a kid to their own devices is JUST WRONG! Now THAT is child abuse! What, are you kidding? It's the fact that parents shirk their responsibilities that has caused so much social strife to begin with! The thought that you think children have the means and maturity to judge certain things for themselves scares the living hell out of me! Yes, there are a variety of ways to support positive choices and these parents have exercised their rights and are taking care of the situation as they see fit.

I find it creepy too! Shit! But what I find even creepier is your stringing together such things as my supporting abstinence and banning birth control! That freaks me out! How you ever got that is beyond me!


All I'm saying is that these people have the right. If you want to take that right away from them, then you are no better than anyone else who wants to impose their own beliefs on everyone else.

[tigereye]

215. no, some of them are mature enough to have sex when

they are 16. It's quite common in Europe for teens to be allowed to have boyfriends or girlfriends over to sleep in their bedrooms, whether we agree with it or not. Parents can't really force adolescents to do anything- and I don't know if they can INSIST that their kids not have sex. How is that going to happen? They have to raise them to make reasonable choices. I have seen a lot of teens in my work who definitely need more supports and limits, but some of them are mature enough to make their own choices and many parents will support that in the hopes that they will be sensible. That's part of maturity.

You said, "the thought that you think children have the means and maturity to judge certain things for themselves scares the living hell out of me!"

I don't understand why it scares you so much. There are some adolescents who do have the means and maturity. Parents give them the limits and tools to make those right choices and at some point, they will.

I wasn't kidding. Some aspects of your argument devolve into a very controlling place that makes me very uncomfortable.

[JuniperLea]

219. You nailed it

And our views are not that far apart...

Right. It is very common in Europe for kids to have sex at 16. It's a cultural thing. That's exactly what I'm saying. This purity deal is a cultural thing for these people too. It is a choice, a tradition and a right. How would it fly if someone decided to force, by law, virginity on everyone until they were 21? That would go over like a led zeppelin for sure!

I fully support the parents you talk about who support their kids and feel those kids are mature enough to deal. That is the perfect scenario from my POV. But that is my POV... and it also happens to be my choice as to how I raised my kids. That's my right and I'll be dammed if anyone is going to take that away from me. Likewise, it is the right of these parents to teach their children what they want to teach them. Clearly they hold this virginity thing so high that they have these ceremonies to support that belief. Whether or not the kid holds true to their vow is quite another thing. All I'm saying is that these parents are well within their rights.

Your statement was all inclusive... that's why it scared me. No two kids are alike and I think we both get that.

Your reaction is understandable. Clearly you were not raised in a culture that was anything like what these people are in... neither have I! I find it way creepy! But when I approach this without emotion, on a purely intellectual basis, the only conclusion I can come to is that this is their right. Their kids, their right. Hell, I freaked out when I first saw little baby girls with pierced ears! EW! MUTILATION!!! And to be honest, I think circumcision is mutilation too! I did have my two sons circumcized... I was in my 20's... I would never do such a thing now. My daughter got her ears pierced when she was 12 and after much begging... just like I did. Honestly, I still think it's mutilation and I cannot think to hard about the holes in my own ear lobes or I freak out! HA!

[tigereye]

221. sorry

there are a lot of sexist arguments traveling around here, lately. And that gets up the nose of this old-school feminist. :)

[JuniperLea]

223. I hear ya, sis...

I've been accused of a lot lately myself. I'm all for women's rights... but mainly, I'm all for human rights.

I hate the thought of abortion... grosses me out and makes me sadder than hell. But I'll fight to the death to keep that a right for women. That's pretty much how I feel about a lot of things. We can't force our elevated awareness on anyone:)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

224. Parents in This Country Can Certainly Insist

Barring slumber parties when we were younger, my father AND my mother never allowed (and would never have allowed) any of us to have overnight visitors. No way, no how. It was their house, so of course they can insist. Parents can also set curfews and try to keep tabs on their kids' whereabouts at all times.

I don't know many parents here in America who would allow such things. Perhaps we Americans are not as liberal on this as Europeans, but we're not as liberal on MANY issues as Europeans are.

Obviously, parents who are strict about this will still have to deal with their kids doing the things that kids often do, whether it's sneaking out or leaving home like a bat out of hell at age 18, or whatever. But to argue they don't have the RIGHT to raise their kids in this fashion is ridiculous, IMO. Clearly they have that right.

DTH

[tigereye]

230. all I'm saying is that you really can't FORCE it -

you give them the tools, you set the limits, you support good choices, you can even demand, but you aren't in their body or their head. That's all I'm saying.

I've seen many kids in my work who have become pregnant indirectly from lack of parental support or love, but also many kids who had so much "don't do this" ( or the assumption that they will have sex and get pregnant, so that parents over-react in some way and achieve the opposite result), and both can have a poor effect. It's a delicate balance, sometimes.

You have to teach them to make good decisions and let them be independent, depending on their maturity level. I know moms who have kept jars of condoms on a dresser for their sons, and the message is, if you are going to have sex, be smart.

[JuniperLea]

48. I have no particular feelings about the subject except

That I am a staunch supporter of a persons rights. A parent's rights to teach their children whatever moral or religious value they see fit.


If we start taking those rights away from people, we will soon find ourselves in the same situation.


I may not agree with a person's beliefs, but I will defend to the death their right to have those beliefs.

[BeTheChange]

110. Daddy is making purity an issue?

Are you fucking kidding me? Have you flipped on a television recently or walked through a Juniors department for girls? Do this.. why dont you walk through the juniors department and then take a stroll over to the Misses.. Let me know if the clothes get skankier the older you get. They dont.

There is nothing wrong with ascribing to the idea that you would like to keep your virginity for your husband or your wife. If it is done with a healthy understanding of reality and for the right reasons it is awesome that people can keep from lugging sexual baggage into their relationships with them like alot of us do.

American Taliban? Holy crap, Drama.

[JVS]

168. Evidently the advice to "be honest" with kids about sex when they start...

asking questions only applies in cases where the parents don't want to tell their kids that they think refraining is best.

[JuniperLea]

20. Oh.Good.God

Those things can hardly be compared to a father's wish that his daughter remain a virgin until she is married! That being said, I think saving virginity until marriage is a cute old tradition too. One which is supported by many Judeo-Christian religions.

You are freaking out over nothing, imho. You act as if the girl is swearing only to have sex with daddy until she is married!

It's not for you to judge if "people aren't living all that well"... each person has their own individual right to make that call.

If the man were raping his daughter, I'd say damn well it's sick and twisted. If he were physically abusing her in any way, I'd say the same thing. Attempting to instill an old custom (virginity until marriage) is not abusive.

[stanwyck]

31. well, where's the ceremony with the sons?

odd that the father/son virginity ceremony isn't mentioned. Just the sweet, little girls all dressed up and out for the day with Daddy.
Do you have the info on the father/son "purity" ceremony? I'm guessing it doesn't exist.
Face it. You're on the side of a very sexist, archaic anarchronism here. Bail now and quit defending this silliness.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stanwyck]

36. Just answer

where is the father/son "purity" ceremony?
We're waiting.
(and you're the one with the child molestor fixation. I never mentioned anything like that..I do want you to address the female as chattel issue.)
You're not.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stanwyck]

44. just answer the questions

this is all about Daddy and daughter. Please post the link with the Daddy and son purity ceremony.
Talk to the daughter as chattel issue.
Quit doing the Bushian "straw man" argument. "Some people say..child molestor" (?) I didn't.
Take out the emotion and discuss the concerns.
I'm asking you about the daughter as possession issue and the failure to include the boys.
Talk to the issues.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stanwyck]

62. I regret hurting your feelings

with the "no daughters" remark. That was cruel.
Peace.

[bryant69]

68. Yeah, right.

I'll take that with a grain of salt, since you didn't respond to the substance of what I wrote at all, but simply want to pretend that the real story here is that I'm too sensitive.

I don't give a shit about you hurting my feelings and neither should you - if you are right keep arguing - if you have made a mistake, acknowledge that.

[stanwyck]

72. No. I stand by what I've said

women aren't chattel. We're not possessions. Our sexuality is our own. Not our father's. We're not gifts to be passed around from our father to our husband.
And daughters should not be singled out from sons for special virginity ceremonies, especially at an age when they're just learning long division.

[bryant69]

74. What did I say that conflicts with that?

When specifically did I argue that Woman are Chattel? When did I argue that your sexuality belongs to your father? Point me to the place and I will apologize.

[bryant69]

103. Silence

To be expected I suppose.

[JuniperLea]

108. Indeed

Fully expected.

This boils down to some very basic things. If these rights are to hold true for one, they must hold true for all. It's the live and let live liberal way. If a person can't get behind that, they really aren't all that liberal.

[tkmorris]

83. I normally stay out of these

And I am sure that I'll regret posting this, but I am compelled to.

I don't think your sexuality is your own if you are a child. Now please note that I am NOT saying a girl child is somehow the "possesion" of her father but I do believe that parents have an interest, no scratch that a RESPONSIBILITY to monitor and control their childs sexual behaviors. I realize that I am not toeing the Liberal line here but the fact is that we HAVE gotten far too permissive as a society in this regard.

[JuniperLea]

98. Oh, but you are speaking as a true liberal!

It's all about the live and let live. No two people are exactly alike and we should all support our individual rights to our individual beliefs. Period.

Yes, parental responsibility. I agree. And every parent has the right to raise their child as they see fit, within the law.


There is no law against remaining a virgin until marriage. There is no law against a person believing this is the right thing to do.

It's a choice. We should all be free to make our own choices. Period. Once we start allowing others to dictate to us, we lose.

[BeTheChange]

116. Oh no you didnt...

;) Great post. It would be awesome if more parents would be parents instead of buddies. Maybe I could buy my 15 year old little sister in law an outfit for Christmas that didnt show the crack of her ass, her hip bones and the majority of her breasts.. oh, and that didnt come with a thong.

[JuniperLea]

51. You have no history or tradition to stand on with that one

Give it up.


Maybe you should avoid weddings too... all those virginal white dresses... the father giving his daughter away... what rubbish!

:sarcasm:

[stanwyck]

57. the weddings I attend

don't have all that old-fashioned, old world tripe. Does anyone still do that? I mean, outside of the Mormons and the fundamentalists?

[MelliMel]

63. It's not your family, so why do you care?

Do you have something against people espousing anything traditional? And yes, many people still are traditional in some areas, not just Mormons. I am an Orthodox Jew. My husband and I do not even hold hands in public.


Once again, it's not you, it's not your family, so why are you so upset by it?

[stanwyck]

66. it's the female as chattel aspect

which I, and others (see the other posters) find repulsive. Not all of us were raised to think of women as gifts to be given by our fathers to our husbands -- intact. Like vessels. That is repulsive to us.
And we're speaking out with our objections.
Same as you.

[MelliMel]

71. I do not view my daughter as chattel

nor do I view my sons this way. They have all been told, "no sex before marriage". Why that offends you I have no idea.

[stanwyck]

77. I'm not offended by that.

I'm offended by the girls being singled out for purity ceremonies. I'm offended by the fathers giving the girls as gifts to their husbands. I'm offended by the dominion of the father over his daughter's sexuality.
I'm offended by a daughter not being recognized as a separate entity, capable of having her own life. Including a sexual life.
Parents don't own children. They're not possessions. They're not pets.

[MelliMel]

79. My children do not have a sexual life.

And it is my right to instruct them not to. Sorry if you don't like it. It's your right not to, and I am thankful that's all you can do is complain.

[stanwyck]

134. Actually, they do

we're sexual creatures. And even small children experience sexual thoughts and feelings. You're not in control of their thoughts or their physical feelings -- much as you might try. They're separate from you. And even as small children, they're beginning their sexual life. Obviously, it's not the same as adults. Don't you remember your early sexual awakenings? Your crushes and dreams? Take Psychology 101. This is basic. A child doesn't transform into a sexual being overnight. It's a process.
Also...what exactly do you mean by..my children do not have a sexual life. And it is my right to instruct them not to."
They don't have...what you're instructing them not to? You're going to confuse them with instructing them to not have what you say they don't have.
Talk to a child development specialist. Talk to your rabbi. Your children were born sexual beings. That doesn't mean sexual interaction. You're their parent. Not their owner. Just saying "they do not" doesn't make it so. They are separate from you. Read, listen, learn. You'll be better able to guide and counsel your children by opening your mind.
Sex is not dirty or shameful. It's nature. We're animals. We're sexual. Mom and Dad acting as authoritarian control freaks doesn't change what we are.
Good luck.

[MelliMel]

148. No one said sex is dirty or shameful.

As an Orthodox Jew, I know sex is a beautiful thing. And I hope my children experience it. When they are married. I do not consider it a beautiful thing to screw anything and everything that comes along.

You told me to talk to my rabbi? LMAO. Sorry, my rabbi wouldn't say, "Oh...encourage your children to explore their sexuality whenever they please!". We aren't hedonists. And if you are, that is good for you. It's not for us.

I am sorry that it bothers you so much that some people exercise a little self restraint.

[JuniperLea]

163. All the more reason to catch them young

And teach them a few things...

[JuniperLea]

206. You speak out of both sides of your mouth...

You agree that children begin having sexual thoughts early in life yet you admonish parents who are trying to instill their religious moral beliefs in their young children.

You need to make up your mind.


I suppose you hate Catholics and the Amish too... we are so lucky to have omnipotent "deciders" such as yourself to tell us what is right. I'm quite surprised you allow religion at all. And quite frankly, you should think about burning a few of those churches down. :sarcasm:

[PassingFair]

139. What will you do if/when...

your teenage child has sex?

Just curious.

[MelliMel]

149. As I said in another post

I wouldn't disown them. I probably wouldn't know as they would not flaunt it. Not when they know we would be opposed to it. My kids are respectful, which is in short supply among today's youth.

[JuniperLea]

114. So, I suppose you think children should just be allowed to run wild?

Make all their own decisions? That parents have no right to teach their kids anything?

Do you think they are literally being offered as gift? You can't see the symbolism here? You don't think a father has the right to tell his daughter that until she is an adult and can make a decision on her own, she is not to have sex?

Parents are responsible for their children. It is a lack of responsibility by parents that has led to us having so many juvenile delinquents. Which do you prefer? Responsible parents for the most part raise responsible children/adults. Where is the problem? Do you think it is responsible for a child to have sex? Do you think it's responsible for a parent to allow a child to have sex?

I don't get it. You can't have it both ways.

[stanwyck]

138. You either didn't read the article, or you're unable

to understand why so many of us are creeped out by it. This is not Dad teaching his daughter. This is Dad as guardian of his daughter's virginity. Dad is keeper of her hymen. He hands her over to her husband. She is chattel. (look it up -- she's merchandise, property). And, for me, this is just too similar to Islamic fundamentalism's treatment of women. You may be fine with that. I'm not.

[loudsue]

154. A dad is a parent. EQUAL and different from the mother.

A dad carries one set of weights and wings to give a child. A mother carries another set of weights and wings to give a child.

The "dads" taking their daughters to this parentally instructional gathering, if you want to be gender neutral, should be a parent taking their daughter to the gathering.

Why do you creep out a bunch of DADS who are spending time with their kid, and honoring her, and teaching her to honor HERSELF, like it's some sort of perversion?

More dads need to stop and notice that daughters learn to honor themselves as WOMEN by the way their DADS relate to them, the same as sons learn to honor themselves as MEN by the way their MOMS relate to them. Daughters learn how to be a FEMALE PARTNER AND MOTHER from their mothers. And sons learn how to be a MALE PARTNER AND (caring) FATHER from their fathers.

From their mothers AND their fathers, all kids grow up to learn how to behave honorably in society and in their work, and how to most effectively use their brains and skills for their futures.

And when the time comes, there is usually a rite of passage when the youngsters are sent out on their own. Often, it's a marriage ceremony.

Most kids aren't going to make it to the alter with their virginity in tact, even if they wanted to for their own personal reasons. If they at least have the support of their parents to help them get there, it can be a lot easier for them.

But like many have said on this thread....it's all about people making choices for their kids while they have the authority and responsibility to do that, and hoping the kids can take it from there when the time comes.

:kick::kick::kick:

[JuniperLea]

160. Great post!

Whew!

Yes, our children will begin making choices for themselves when they are adults. Until then, it is our RESPONSIBILITY to attempt to instill some self respect.

Kids DO have sexual feelings when they are very young... many people think it's a good thing to offer some guidance in that regard. I don't see a problem with that at all.

[JuniperLea]

157. I read it and I understand

And I do understand why it is creepy to many. Clearly you are not paying attention to what I've said. It is your right to be creeped out by this, just as it is the right of the people involved to continue this tradition.

Please, I understand the term "chattel" without resorting to research, thank you very much.

My main point here, which you have managed to ignore completely, is that if you continue to have thoughts about another's cultural practices as being "wrong", then you must accept that kind of thinking toward yourself and your beliefs.

A father's protection of his daughter's virginity has roots in Judaism and Christianity. Deal. It's their right.

We all need to be open to other cultures and learn to live and let live. You have no idea how these girls feel about this tradition. It is entirely possible that it makes a girl feel special to have their parent care so much. Discipline makes kids feel important, worthy and safe.

If he were having sex with his own daughter... yes, that is illegal and wrong. If he were forcing some surgery or mutilation on her, that would also be wrong. You have no idea how the girls feel. It is entirely possible that they would be offended by your accusations.

Like I said, as an example, I personally think it is wrong to tattoo or pierce the skin of a young child, yet it is the custom of many countries. It's not my place to judge that.

[JuniperLea]

100. There is something to be said for tradition

I applaud you for keeping yours. It is seriously touching my heart right now.

The brave, the few, the open-minded, liberal, traditionalist!


Live and let live.

[MelliMel]

104. Exactly. :-)

I thought liberals were supposed to be about live and let live. I guess some have their own litmus test. If you are at all for traditional values, you are somehow backward.

[JuniperLea]

106. And they would be the first to scream foul

If someone else were to say their way of thinking or their beliefs were anything but perfect.

You reap what you sow...

[JuniperLea]

92. Yes, some do

Some don't. It's a choice. Nothing is forced... that's why it's called choice.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JuniperLea]

107. And people wonder why their choices are being taken away

Everyone has the right to raise their child as they see fit, providing they don't break any laws.

The way this person sounds, he/she wants to outlaw virginity before marriage!

It's a choice. God gave us free will and no one has the right to take that away. You hear so many screaming about being pro-choice when it comes to abortion, yet they won't cut anyone else some slack when those people want to keep their own choices open.

Makes no sense to me. And it sure doesn't sound like a valid liberal stance.


Live and let live... as long as you aren't raping, killing, beating or stealing... simple, really.

If you can't live and let other live, than you can't expect that right for yourself.

[Inland]

123. Nobody gives a shit about boys and their virginity.

Except the boys, and that's mostly to get rid of it. Nothing new about that.

[JuniperLea]

35. It's your right to have those thoughts

You might think some traditions archaic... that is your right.

And it's every woman's right to save themselves, remain a virgin until they are married. That is their right.

[stanwyck]

43. And the sons?

still no mention of the father/son "purity" ceremonies. The father "giving" the son to the wife, intact.
Of course a woman has the right over her own sexuality - virginity. That's our point.
Look at the picture. That's DADDY with his daughter at the virginity ceremony. Daddy is involved. And you're talking about "her" rights.
So..why is Daddy there?

[JuniperLea]

45. Daddy, as a parent

Has the right to teach his daughter any moral value he sees fit. Be it religious or personal. His right. Period.

[stanwyck]

52. Any?

Any moral value he sees fit? So, if his religion, or "personal" belief is that his daughter is his domain, sexually, that's OK?
You're giving Daddy total authority -- complete -- over his daughter. You said "any moral value - religious or personal - he sees fit.
That should please the defense attorneys.
(we had an ugly case here in Atlanta where a local church was encouraging the male parishioners to sexually initiate the pre-pubescent girls - and beat them - as part of their "personal and religious" beliefts. They should have had your counsel. Our jury convicted them of rape and abuse.)

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stanwyck]

59. just answer the questions

that's all.
Enough hyperbole.
Talk to the issues.

[MelliMel]

69. Enough hyperbole? LOL.

You seem to be doing well with it yourself.

I'll answer.

Yes, it is my right and my husband's right to instruct our children as we see fit. And that includes no sex before marriage. Would we disown them if they did anyway? No, but it is likely we wouldn't find out as they wouldn't flaunt it.

[JuniperLea]

94. Here you go

Any moral value he sees fit?

-Yes. That is a parent's right.

So, if his religion, or "personal" belief is that his daughter is his domain, sexually, that's OK?

-Yes. Any parent has the right to dictate their daughters lack of sex before they are married.


You're giving Daddy total authority -- complete -- over his daughter.

-That is what parenting is for!


You said "any moral value - religious or personal - he sees fit.

-Yes.

That should please the defense attorneys.

-That is really silly. Of course I mean "within the law"! I have never suggested otherwise. Get your mind out of the gutter.


(we had an ugly case here in Atlanta where a local church was encouraging the male parishioners to sexually initiate the pre-pubescent girls - and beat them - as part of their "personal and religious" beliefts. They should have had your counsel. Our jury convicted them of rape and abuse.)

-And rightfully so. Rape and beatings are against the law, fcol! My, but you can twist and stretch!


Last time I checked, it was still well within the law for a parent to teach a child, male or female, that they should remain "pure" or "a virgin" until they wed. And further, it is well within the law to remain such until you are married.

No laws broken; parental rights intact.

You have a problem with that?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. Isn't it a bit of a stretch...

to go from a sexist double standard (which it is) to child molestation (which it isn't)?

[Katherine Brengle]

117. Honestly, I would think this was cool IF the parent attending was Mommy--

Mothers should be instilling values in their daughters regarding sexuality and what it means to be a woman. Then it would be about bonding as women, and about sisterhood and the building of a lifelong mother-daughter relationship based on open communication about sexuality and relationships and about supporting each other in these things.

I think that our society puts waaaaaaaaaaaay too much emphasis on fatherly influence in matters of female sexuality.

Either mothers should do these things with their daughters, or both parents should be involved--this should have nothing do with men, even fathers.

[Nicole]

118. There are purity balls for sons

Here's a link for you.

http://www.belvoir.army.mil/news.asp?id=truelovewaits

It's for mothers and sons.


Monique Endriss places a purity ring on her son Justin's finger during the Purity Ball ceremony.
Photos by Donnie Biggs

[Inland]

128. Blue, right? nt

[JVS]

169. Oh shit! There goes that argument!

[rockymountaindem]

73. Look, people can do whatever they want as long as nobody gets hurt

And from this article (yes I read it) it doesn't look like anybody is getting hurt. To infer that things like this lead directly and invariably to child abuse will win you the gold medal in jumping to conclusions.

Condeming this out of hand makes you as judgemental as people like Pat Robertson.

[OzarkDem]

217. Discussing your sex life with Dad?

I don't think so. That's unhealthy for a dad to have such preoccupation with discussing his adolescent daughter's sex life, let alone parading her around like a virgin trophy. I'm sure most girls are really uncomfortable with this, but don't want to offend their dads.

I'm sure the young girls are more comfortable discussing these issues with their mother or another female relative.

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. That is just... creepy. Very, very creepy. n/t

:scared:

[Left Is Write]

75. That's the impression I was left with also.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a girl deciding to remain a virgin until she marries, if that's what she wants to do.

Somehow, though, making an oath to her father about that leaves me with an ooky feeling.

[TAPat]

3. I'm speechless....

almost.
:wtf: is that crap?
Sick freaks indeed! :mad:

[mrcheerful]

6. The really funny thing abut it are those that do take the oaths

end up doing anal and oral sex at an earlier age. Theres a study out there that showed why the religious rights ideal about virginity oaths have shown that to be true. Bill Mahar had it on his HBO show last season. He stated things have changed since he was a kid, back then it was hard to get a girl to give hand jobs, today kids are having porn sex.

[shoelace414]

10. Kids with Virginity oaths wait longer before their first sexual experience

but they are less likley to use bith control when they do.

[stanwyck]

11. And they get pregnant

My very unscientific study based on my experience and that of my two children is that the children who go through all these "promise ceremonies" and vows of celibacy end up...young mothers and fathers. They fail to get the practical information they need to prevent pregnancy. And, as humans have done since the beginning of existence, they have sex.

[MuseRider]

9. My dad used a baseball bat

and it didn't work any better than this will. :shrug:

[kitkat65]

14. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's based on the concept of

women as chattel to be traded upon agreement/contract of marriage. Women as objects - fuck that.

[stanwyck]

19. Hey, we've got takers

right here at DU who think this is "cute".
(I'm so hoping they don't have daughters....)

[JuniperLea]

26. It's none of your business

But my daughter is 21, intelligent, beautiful, and fully able to make up her own mind.


I have family who are Fundies... yeah, I know. Still, that is their choice. I have a cousin who is a Christian missionary and she chose to remain a virgin until she was married. She has been married for nearly 20 years and they are very happy. Her sister was a virgin when married too. They both went to a Christian marriage counseling deal and had nothing but praise for it. It's their right.





If we cannot support a person's right to choice, we are doomed. If we cannot support a person's right to choose on this issue, then how can we expect others to leave us alone when we want to keep choices open... like abortion for instance.


You can't step on the toes of other people, damn them for their beliefs and choices, then expect them to keep their hands off your choices. What's good for the goose and all that.

[stanwyck]

34. This isn't about "right to choose"

this is about very young girls (look at the picture/read the article) who aren't choosing. Daddy is. And the girl is being treated like a possession that is given from Daddy to Husband. You're not talking to that issue. Which is understandable. It's damn creepy.
And speaking of "what's good for the goose"...when does Daddy take his SON to the purity ceremony?
Post that article.

[JuniperLea]

41. Now you are scraping the bottom of the barrel

Has there every been a tradition like that? Historically? No. Don't be silly and ask for something that never existed.


You are right in that the girls currently cannot make such decisions. But clearly, those young ladies aren't near the age when they should be concerned with sex. Some day they will be old enough to make those decisions. But just like religious decisions in a family, the parents decide what religion if any a child will learn.


Sticking metal rods through one's skin is creepy to me, but there are people in the world who do this for religious reasons. Are you saying they shouldn't be allowed to do that too?

[stanwyck]

55. OK. I give up

go ahead and encourage Daddy's dominion over his daughter's sexuality. Take the little girl in the Sunday dress to a virginity ceremony.
Encourage her to think of herself as Daddy's gift to her future husband.
Such thinking makes me sad beyond belief.

[JuniperLea]

58. And that is your right

just as it's the father's right to try and influence his daughter.

What is wrong with being a virgin when you get married?

[BlooInBloo]

21. ROFL! But, um, that's ALL there is to it!

lol - which parts of it do you like?

EDIT: It's the very essence of male-owned female sexuality.

[novalib]

15. Ewwwwww......

Talk about creepy!

A bunch of slimy old men with cute little girls.

I do wonder when the fathers talk to their sons about not them remaining virgins until they get married.

[NoPasaran]

61. Those "slimy old men" are the girls' fathers

Would they be just as slimy if they were coaching their daughters' soccer teams?

[stanwyck]

64. Coaching your daughter's soccer team

and taking her to a purity ceremony which expouses giving her intact to her future husband -- from daddy/owner to husband/owner are hardly the same.
We're concerned with continuing the female as chattel idea with these girls.
It seems bizarre in this century.

[NoPasaran]

89. Virginity, while (seemingly) uncommon, shouldn't rate as "bizarre"

[JuniperLea]

101. Good call! n/t

[stanwyck]

132. You missed the point

possibly intentionally. Clearly, I was referring to treating females as chattel as bizarre. And equally bizarre is the support here at DU for women being traded from Daddy to Husband.,..guaranteed "intact".
Virginity is not bizarre. 18th Century treatment of women as property...bizarre.

[OzarkDem]

216. Agree

The issue is the control exerted over these girls by their fathers, to an unnatural degree.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. Traffic in women...this is just "quality control" for the traffic in women

Nothing new, however despicable it is.

[enid602]

23. Can you say . . .

Jon-Benet?

[MsTryska]

78. dude! i was so thinking that when i watched

the clips of this on Now.


i got that same icky feeling as i did when i saw jon-benet's pictures.


i can't quite put my finger on what squicks me out, i think it's subtle sexualizing/fetishizing of young girls with hair done up and the makeup on, being Daddy's "Date".

[Taverner]

30. This is sick indeed

I don't know if the comparison to NAMBLA is aprapos, but it is nonetheless sick.

The RW is totally batshit insane...

[proud patriot]

40. extremely creepy to me

x(

[ShaneGR]

46. I don't have any right to judge these peoples beliefs....

Just as they have no right to tell me how I should live my life. We can't go around complaining evangelicals are telling us how we should live our lives and then do the same thing to other people we don't agree with.

[The Stranger]

50. It's the JUNIOR ANTI-SEX LEAGUE!

George Orwell, you are a genius.

There were even organizations such as the Junior Anti-Sex League, which advocated complete celibacy for both sexes. All children were to be begotten by artificial insemination (artsem, it was called in Newspeak) and brought up in public institutions. This, Winston was aware, was not meant altogether seriously, but somehow it fitted in with the general ideology of the Party. The Party was trying to kill the sex instinct, or, if it could not be killed, then to distort it and dirty it. He did not know why this was so, but it seemed natural that it should be so. And as far as the women were concerned, the Party's efforts were largely successful.

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/6/

[MsTryska]

84. and one step away from HandMaid's Tale....nt

nt

[MsTryska]

65. I actually saw soem footage from this ball on PBS's NOW

last week.


I was very creeped out by it. All these girls dressed up as their father's dates standing in front of their fathers and pledging this oath not to spread their legs. i was quite distrubed by it.


and not because it was a father/daughter dance. I've seen those before. this one just had a strange vibe to it.

[stanwyck]

70. strange vibe indeed

and yet, even here at old liberal DU, we have plenty who find this appealing.

[MsTryska]

81. well - i don't know that they find it appealing exactly...

but they aren't as distrubed by it as you and I, but then perhaps they didn't see the same things we saw.

I don't know if you saw the NOW piece, but it jsut gave me a bad feeling in my stomach.

I think because these were girls dressed as women, playing the part of Dad's Date, and then verbally en masse, promising to let no man have them.


Of course in many cultures females are expected to be virgins until they are married. But as far as I've ever known, the status of that virginity and how it gets to stay in place is womenfolk's domain - not Dad's. (until the virginity is gone - then it become's Dad's problem.)

[tatertop]

87. That NOW piece made my skin crawl!

very creepy indeed

[MsTryska]

90. I'm so glad I'm not the only one!

it just had a very strange vibe - much like the pictures someone below posted.


can you explain the quality that bothered you so much? i'm having a tough time verbalizing it - but it just gave me a "that ain't right at all" feeling.

[tatertop]

145. A combination of misogyny, incest, and a morbid religious jingoism

I absolutely cannot believe people here are defending any part of this.
It is anti-human. These fuckers are over controlling child abusers.

[alfredo]

82. Not the kind of dance I remember. There's no booze

no fights and no knickers down/dress up at the local parking place.

[jmowreader]

85. This isn't as bad as the "other" purity ceremonies

In the "other" purity ceremonies, the tendency is to load the kid in the car, take him/her to church, take them into a room full of people like the preacher and the youth minister, and present them with this purity pledge. Without informing the child why they're going to church.

There's nothing wrong with staying a virgin until marriage. There's everything wrong with coupling these pledges with abstinence-only sex ed...because the problem with only teaching people to stay virgins until marriage is that at some point in time, you're probably going to get married.

[MsTryska]

91. I actually have less of a problem with that.

you've got a room full of other people, you have a mixed crowd, hopefully mom is involved too, and everybody celebrate the fact that you've been shanghai'd and forced to take a purity pledge at the megachurch.


to me, leaving Mom at home, and going to a Dance as Daddy's Date where you are dressed like a grownup and pledge to him and god that you'll never have sex is infinitely more distrubing.

[jmowreader]

194. The 'shanghai' factor is what disturbs me

If you go to the dance as daddy's date, you know up front what the deal is...they're calling it the Purity Prom or some damn thing. (Except for the Purity Pledge, this isn't much different from the debutante balls girls have gone to for...well, basically forever.) And if you don't wanna go, you can always trump up some reason not to.

The other thing...it's all subterfuge.

Let's pretend this happened to you: that mom and dad took you to church, brought you into a room with the minister in it, and pulled out the Pledge of Purity. There's lots of reasons not to sign such a thing...but what are you going to do? "Uhh...Mom...I better not sign this thing, I'm not exactly 'pure.' Let's see...(daughter begins to recite very long list of sex acts she participated in)...you think God might get a little upset if I swear to remain 'pure' when I'm having sex every weekend?"

[Avalon Sparks]

88. I personally don't agree with this...

Something about it does rub me the wrong way. It does seem like a complete double standard. People marry much later these days, most will not wait until marriage to try sex. This just seems like a total head trip/guilt trip type of thing.



Is the white balloon photo setting suppose to symbolize the uterus??? WTF

[HughBeaumont]

131. I have a photo for this supercreepy display -

OK, can I get an EW from the congregation? Tradition this - if I had a daughter (have a stepson), I'm not going to force her to make some unrealistic promise this early in life, especially not in a creeptastic ceremony such as this. She shouldn't be THINKING about shit like this so early (yes, I HAVE seen the movie Thirteen (ecch) and YES, my head isn't buried in the sand) and now it's drilled in her, which will more than likely cause her to make mistakes rather than learn from other people's screw-ups.

Just raise them right, identify their problems since it's not like any one of us haven't been around that same block and bought the T-Shirt, and let them know you love them and share in their interests. This whole ceremony is unnecessary and further strengthens neo-dominionist traditions of control over the female. I would NEVER subject a girl so young as the ones pictured here to this weirdness.

[laundry_queen]

93. Something about that isn't quite right.

First of all, those girls are SO young. Omg, they look to be my dd's age (8). I would be livid if dh did this with her. It's just so creepy!
What happened to discussing sex with our kids, talking about it, telling them the truth about it. That's what my parents did. Nothing was taboo. And while I didn't remain a virgin until I was married, I did wait until I was an adult, which was a lot longer than any of the friends I had (most of which lost their virginity by the time they were 14) whose parents didn't tell them anything.
I also discuss things with my dd. We work it into conversation all the time, answer her questions truthfully and don't do 'big talks'. To me, that is far more sensible.
I remember writing a 'contract' with my parents about smoking, drinking and drugs when I was 11 (through the school). Talk about a useless contract. Children have no idea what is to come in the teen years - life changes so rapidly. I don't know of anyone in my class who stuck with that particular contract.

Nevermind all the sexist connotations this carries...

[kevinbgoode]

96. I had the same initial reaction

and if it's such an old tradition, it would be reminiscent of when children were regarded as property and the fathers would participate in arranging their marriage partners.

Coming from evangelicals, it's highly suspect to me - after all, they do seem to have an inordinate number of reports of child sexual abuse. . .I don't know why, but we sure see a lot of those reports.

[baby_mouse]

97. Ugh!

What do these fathers think their daughters ARE?

[Zorra]

102. It is highly unethical, if not immoral, to force girls this age into

making promises they may not want to keep when they become more independent of their parents.

Shame on these men for their lack of judgment and responsibility.

[Inland]

127. One would hope that Daddy Dearest doesn't throw it back in her face

or if he does, she says, "Dad, I love you, but I was seven years old. Not much that I said when I was seven really mattered. I wanted to be a ballerina too. I hope you aren't too disappointed, but really, don't tell me that I made a solemn vow. Love you, Jimmy says hi."

[SmokingJacket]

105. Why are they even thinking about "purity" at seven??

Sorry: yuck.

Daddy IS NOT equivalent to Future Lover. The connection should not be made.

[geniph]

109. I have no problem with the girls choosing to remain virgin

(or the boys), nor do I have a problem with the parents wishing their children to not engage in premarital sex. I think it's unrealistic and rather archaic (not to mention pointless), but if that's their belief, more power to 'em. What I do have a problem with is some of the underlying messages of having a big, dressed-up, formal DATE with DADDY to pledge your virginity TO DADDY. I don't think Daddy has any business talking to little Brittany/Ashlee/Jessica about her hymen or lack of same. If BOTH parents want to request such a pledge, sure. But there's something so very ... ewwwwwww ... about the whole quasi-marital ceremonial aspect of this. It just sets off every anti-incest red flag I have.

I feel the same way about boys pledging their virginity to Mommy. It just should not be the opposite-sex parent, in my opinion. Pubescent children are often a bit confused in their initial orientation toward the opposite-sex parent anyway; why confuse that issue still further?

The whole thing makes me gag. And it isn't the desire of the parents for their children not to engage in premarital sex that bothers me. It's the SEXUALIZATION of the whole thing that bothers me. A lot.

[WoodrowFan]

130. well put geniph

it's not the parents telling kids that they believe premartial sex is wrong, it's the fetishization of a young girl's virginity by her father that gives me the willies....

[MsTryska]

156. You, Geniph and SmokingJacket have totally

and succinctly verbalized all the ick i feel and was unable to put into words.


thank you all!

[WinkyDink]

120. The CREEPY part obviously is the EMPHASIS on the DAUGHTER'S

SEX LIFE. Did Joe Simpson think of this one??

Get your own life, Pops!!

[Jigarotta]

121. the pledges here: o, skin crawling creepy!

girls as young as 7 say this?:
"I pledge to remain sexually pure...until the day I give myself as a wedding gift to my husband. ... I know that God requires this of me.. that he loves me. and that he will reward me for my faithfulness."

And this is what Daddy says in turn:
"I, (daughter’s name)’s father, choose before God to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity. I will be pure in my own life as a man, husband and father. I will be a man of integrity and accountability as I lead, guide and pray over my daughter and as the high priest in my home. This covering will be used by God to influence generations to come. "

high priest in his home? wtf?
THESE 'DADS' ARE SLIMEY FRICKEN INSANE!
this has got Nothing to do with others people choice of preferring virginity or teaching that to their children as some hear are saying. That is just normal regular home talk. BUT THIS RITUAL IS JUST THIS SIDE OF INCESTUOUS.

Can't you smell the ugliness of it all?

::shakes head::

[mrcheerful]

124. Welcome to the brave new world of the RW fundies. Next it will be selling

the child for a bride price. Here we come back to 1201 when men were men and women were property.

[Jigarotta]

135. some here are defending this kind of thing...

as a parents right to 'educate' their kids on sexuality?

oh my, no, it's not that. This is S•I•C•K

[progressivebydesign]

137. God will reward them with (most likely) an unsuitable sexual match.

But they won't know that until their chastity key has been handed over from Daddy.

[highplainsdem]

211. They choose to "cover" their daughters? Don't they know this definition

of "cover"?

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/cover

"copulate with a female, used especially of horses"

It's the 14th of the verb definitions there, but the third verb definition in an old Webster's I just checked, which said the word is used especially of "stallions."

I simply can't believe that many of the men taking the oath to "cover" their daughters were unaware of the sexual meaning of the word. And that choice of wording, when so many completely innocuous alternatives were available, makes this seem even sicker.

[Inland]

122. I'm kinda creeped out by the public ceremony of it.

I mean, I don't mind virginity, I don't mind a father and a daughter discussing it, I don't even mind extracting a promise to remain one if it's that important to the father.

But I'm missing the reason it's done in a room full of others. Something is being affirmed, something about a public role of fathers' vs daughters and their right to that sort of committment.

After all, there's a reason why they are that young. Mostly because a twelve year old would rather die than be a part of it, and that sort of ruins the whole picture of patriarchy.

[Initech]

126. Anyone remember the "Motherboy" episode of Arrested Development?

This sounds like a real-life version of Motherboy but in reverse. :popcorn:

[Rex]

129. They're just kids! Ewwww!

Little 7 year old girls telling daddy, in public, they will not let a boy pop their cherry! Yuck! Sick!

[Ilsa]

133. Great. Virginity = high priority; silver-ring-thing = high priority;

protecting girls from STD's and cervical cancer = low priority; access to health care and birth control = low priority.

What a stupid bunch of fucks. No wonder only the roaches and horseshoe crabs will be left.

[stepnw1f]

136. Fucking Weird

I see this as a control issue, based in paranoia. And how humiliating for these kids...

Parental overboard

[sendero]

140. And statistics prove...

... that the promise is worth a bucket of warm spit. These people have some serious issues.

[stanwyck]

143. Thank you!

I've been under attack here by way too many DUers (?) who are defending this Old World Daddy's Little Girl sickness. Wanting your daughter to remain a virgin, fine. We all have our cultural beliefs and personal ethics and morals. But having this purity ceremony with little (and they're so young!) girls out on a date, all dolled up, with Daddy so he can assert his dominion over the daughter's chastity and "safeguard" her hymen for future delivery of the prize little heifer to her new owner -- the lucky husband -- is just beyond understanding. Women as chattel. An Old World concept that some DUers just can't leave behind. Centuries later.

[tatertop]

146. This must have been Freak Out With Frank Zappa Day

You are way more patient than I.

[DemExpat]

151. I find it very creepy too, inappropriate for such young girls.

I talked to my teens a lot about indiscriminate sex, birth control, etc., (I'm their Mom) but that was heart to heart - this parading out and sexual pledging at such an early age is a sham and sick substitute for good parenting IMHO.

:puke:

DemEx

[Jigarotta]

165. I couldn't believe some of the flack you got here.

head shaking amazing.
glad you stood up.

[stanwyck]

176. The American Taliban at work

girls are the property of Dad to be sold as intact merchandise. Not surprising that one of our brethren immediately thought "Jon-Benet". Yes. Dad way too immersed in his little girl's sexuality.
And the Moms here who are aiding and abetting.
Sickening.
I don't think many of these posters either took the time or were able to understand the original post. They keep transforming what this ceremony is into something more benign.
I worry for their daughters. I wish they had parents who valued them for more than their being a "present" to a husband as an intact vessel.
Heaven forbid these girls decide they don't want to marry.
I guess they'll be outcasts.

[Jigarotta]

178. Daddies looking after your cherry, lil girl...

always thinking about it. Lets group up all the other Dads that think so, in one party, with all the little cherries.

That's the message I got from the original story.

vomitus extremus.

and I'm not so sure about this virgin thing at all. What if your husband/wife ends up being a lousy lover that you didn't have a chance to test drive?

[stanwyck]

180. These fathers are doing such a disservice

to these very young girls...look at the photos!(they're little girls). And already they're involved in a ceremony which is about their most private body part. And Dad is involved.
I hope the parents are saving money for therapy.

[JuniperLea]

187. I'm sorry you were never close enough to talk to your daddy...

... about such things. Personally, I asked him where babied came from when I was six, when my mom was pregnant with a younger sibling. He tried to give me just a little information so as not to "freak me out"... but I pressed forward asking more and more questions... and he felt he couldn't lie to me. I finally got the whole story out of him and we have been able to discuss such things openly ever since. I have always talked openly to my kids about sex too. They were pretty damn precocious and asked a lot of questions just like I did... and like my father, I chose not to lie to them, not even by omission. We are very close and there is not a thing they feel they have to keep from me. They have all graduated high school and have all gone to college... two are still in college. I don't see a problem with being open and honest with a kid.

Frankly I find it quite disturbing that you can't see another person's POV or even consider that there are cultures, traditions and belief systems that you are not always going to agree with. That is pretty damn narrow and hardly liberal.

[stanwyck]

191. I think you've confused liberalism

with apathy. Yes, there are cultures and traditions greatly different from those prevailing in America. Girls in Africa are sexually mutilated. I oppose that practice. Women in the Middle East are killed by their family in "honor" killings. I oppose that practice. American men travel to Thailand and Cambodia on "cruises" advertised in our country in order to have sex with girls and boys under the age of 10. I oppose that practice.
Maybe you don't. You're "live and let live."
I have standards. Consider that narrow if you like.
And my wonderful father and I continue to be close. Imagine that. And yet he never dragged me to a "purity" ceremony when I was 7 all dressed up in a prom dress (and made up! -- who is the lipstick for?) as his date so he could publicly swear to guard my most personal body part.
But then a man who taught public school for over 40 years no doubt had better sense. He was interested in sending his daughters to college. Not selling them as vessels.
No. I can't see your point of view. Not on this.
You agree with the article as posted. For those of us who oppose women as chattel, your view is archaic and disrespectful of women.
I'm not "live and let live." That's not liberalism. That's hedonism. That's ancient Rome. But, then, women were slaves then, too. Fitting time and philosophy for your views.

[JuniperLea]

204. You can't pay attention to save your life, can you?

I oppose all of those things too and have clearly stated such repeatedly in this thread. No one is forcing you or anyone else to participate in this ceremony. And as I've said numerous times, yes, it is kinda creepy. But that is not for us to judge. They aren't mutilating these girls.

You haven't paid enough attention to know what my views are! You are so hysterical and stuck in your rut of misunderstanding, you are completely clueless to what I've said, repeatedly, ad nauseum, and you are arguing points that I have already spoken out about! And you have the nerve to judge me after ignoring the fact that I've said many of the same things you have said!

Read. And quit putting words in my mouth!


No one is forcing you to believe as these people do. All I am saying is that it is their right to do this. They are not mutilating... yet you are acting as if they were!


Would you like to see laws passed preventing this purity ball? That is one question I would like to hear you answer.

[Jigarotta]

197. what you said and what the OP is about, are light years away...

do you not understand?

[JuniperLea]

205. If you think I'm wrong, can you explain?

Can you explain to me why these people should not be allowed to practice their religious faith?

Do you think that laws should be passed preventing a parent from ceremonial personification of a belief they hold dear?

I, too, think the whole thing is pretty creepy. But I was raised differently and I can't imagine doing anything like that. My point is, there is such a thing as freedom of religion. These people are not mutilating, raping or anything close. Do you think the Amish, who hold similar beliefs and ceremonies, should be admonished as well? Where do we draw the line? If we impinge on someone's freedom of religion, what's next? Freedom of speech? Freedom of the press? Is the Constitution just some piece of paper?

[Jigarotta]

208. some things, no matter how 'faithful' are just wrong.

there are many practices under the cover of religion that are abhorent and I consider this particular ritual to be that.

[JuniperLea]

209. You didn't address my question whatsoever

All you did was give an opinion. This is not mutilation, this is not rape, this is something that probably 90% of all world religions hold as sacred... virginity at the time of marriage. It is not their right to mutilate, or rape, but it is their right to further a religious belief.

I think it abhorrent to worship the bearded cloud man and fear hell. So I don't. That is my right. Other people have rights too and they can worship the bearded cloud man or the flying spaghetti monster. That is their right. Period.

[progressivebydesign]

142. As a parent of a teen girl, I can't imagine her discussing that..

..with her Dad without dying of total and complete embarrassment. I just find that whole story to be scary. I hate how SOME people her have jumped onto one or two posters with that holier than thou shit about not judging... it's creepy.. creepy.. creepy.

Yeah.. I know all the Donahue-ian posts here.. 'don't judge! don't judge!', but man.. that is some creepy shit. And.. we have a right to comment on ANYTHING, we do! That's our right. It's how humans express themselves, it's how we fine tune our own values, by looking at the values of others.

I think daddy/daughter dances are charming. Promising your daddy you'll remain a virgin at some freakin' ceremony is CREEPY. Kids who make abstinence promises rarely keep them... and usually have sex without birth control because they are SO traumatized by the idea that they are letting everyone down, and thru ignorance of birth control methods.

I frankly don't care if my daughter's have sex before their married. Once they're 18 who the hell am I to tell them what to do with their bodies? You can only let them know about how some decisions can change your life forever, and how to make good decisions, and keep communication open with them. Reminds me of a relative that is getting married this spring. She's 19 as is her boyfriend. They are devoutly born-again. They should not be getting married. they are not ready.. not even close. They are getting married because her family is so religious and has drummed it into her psyche that she can't have sex until marriage... Do you know how many couples who are far too young to get married DO get married because they just want to finally have sex? Sounds trite, but it's true. I'd much rather have a sexually active 22 year old who is working on getting a degree and setting up a secure and healthy life, than an 18 year old dying to get married so they can have sex.

[Bucky]

175. I'm not questioning your right to comment on this. I'm disagreeing.

I haven't read this yet, but I can tell you as a dad of a Girl Scout I took my daughter to a couple of "swinging with my dad" dances and it brought us closer together. Dismissing all the participants as sick (as some posters are in this thread) is ignorant, judgmental, and strikes me as coming from a much more puritanical mindset. I don't see anything being sexualized about the dad-daughter dance. I'm not a fan of the virginity pledge being offered to the dad--I think waiting is a value that the whole family ought to encourage and share together. So it's patriarchal, but it's hardly perverted.

[mitchum]

147. It's simple (and sick)...women = chattel

[HughBeaumont]

152. EW EW EW EW FREAKING EWWWWW!!

Creeeeeepiest. Photo. Ever.

[kineneb]

164. Uck.

What a disgusting smile. That guy should not be allowed around children. Period. The photos here make me think of the FLDS child brides. Ewww.

[paparush]

185. The dress? or the Guy? :-)

[HughBeaumont]

189. More the guy's creepy leer and bad shiny suit.

It's like the Aphex Twin grin -

[HughBeaumont]

153. And tell me THIS shit isn't creeptacular:

Um, can someone please explain to me WHY a girl THAT DAMNED YOUNG is reciting a purity oath to this mustachioed fucking creep of a dad who has WAAAAAAYY too much vested interest in his daughter's . . .

You know, I can't even say it. Photos like this literally make my skin crawl. Tell me there ISN'T something incredibly wrong and borderline illegal subjecting a child that young to this puritanical nonsense.

[Bucky]

173. You are so off base here.

I see a picture of a dad and a daughter having a great time together. Some day that girl will go on real dates and she ought to be socialized into thinking any guy (or girl) is going to treat her with all the same respect that her father treats her with. I did one of these dances when my kid was in Girl Scouts (except we didn't do the virginity pledge).

This is a dad taking out time to make his girl feel special and loved. There's nothing sexual going on here. I don't see how you can possibly get "mustachioed fucking creep of a dad who has WAAAAAAYY too much vested interest in his daughter's..." out of this. I just don't think you know anything about what this dance was about.

[HughBeaumont]

186. SHE CAN'T BE ANY MORE THAN SEVEN!!!!

Give me a damned break, this is done in the presence of dozens of other dads, placing more pressure on this worthless "vow" and reinforcing the idea of the daughter's chastity as a proud papa's trophy rather than by her own choice. I'm sorry, but I'm looking at a creep who's placing his 19th century neo-dominionist patriarchal interests over the proper upbringing of his daughter. It's far too much about insecure male control over the female. Women are treated as property and in this case, that outdated concept is being instilled way too young with a promise that's going to be worth a plug nickel once said promisee grows apart from the parents (often times purposely).

In college I took a course on sexual roles and mores; plain and simple, you DON'T introduce this kind of subject matter, let alone package it in the form of a prom (designed to be that special moment, all the while not getting that it's all about the male's need for a pure princess to call his own), to girls THAT young. Sexual education should be gradually introduced to the child at the appropriate age and maturity levels. Seven-year-old girls sure as hell aren't thinking of themselves as "wedding gifts" at that age to be presented to their husband (who most likely will NOT go the same route as his bride did).

They also should not be introduced to the idea of the possibility of intercourse for pleasure at that age, ESPECIALLY in front of other creepy fundie men and their daughters. I cannot in all honesty see how you can defend this practice. I couldn't even IMAGINE bringing this subject up to my son at seven, the very idea makes my SKIN get chiggers. I will only talk to him about it IF HE ASKS; which, as a curious boy, he has. Also, it NEVER gets brought up in the company of other people; I mean, wouldn't that just be embarrassing for BOTH parties?

Since he's seen the "growing up" video at school, I consider this method appropriate for his maturity level and will not place unneeded pressure on him to maintain his chastity, since . . . well, since he's TEN and doesn't CARE about that sort of thing at that age. This whole purity prom thing is stomach churning, disgusting and let's be blunt, ABUSIVE.

[OzarkDem]

229. Baloney

This girl is too young to be talking about having sex, especially with her father. That's inappropriate and unhealthy.

[foreverdem]

155. Very creepy

These little girls are way too young to even understand what they are reciting. And any dad who would want his daughter to do something like this at such a young age, or have that much interest in his daughter's future sex life seems a bit unnatural.

[JuniperLea]

161. They are counseled...

And statistically, children are having sex earlier and earlier. When I was a kid, we thought it weird that a 16-year-old was having sex. Now, kids are having sex at 10 or 12! I think getting a jump on the situation is a good thing, really.

It's an assumption that the girl doesn't understand.


A lot of things seem unnatural when we study the cultures and traditions of others. It's their right to continue with their traditions, and it's your right to think of them as unnatural. It's called live and let live... the liberal way, really.

[politicat]

162. Sorry... but my father's rights over MY body ended when he stopped

supporting me.

When I was 12. If he had expected me to remain chaste and pure until marriage, he probably should have been there, being part of my life and making it possible for my mother to make the bills on her own, rather than down at the track or the lotto parlor.

It's a two way street - fathers who respect their daughters and care for them will get far better behavior and compliance than fathers who don't, and father who don' trespect and care for their daughters don't deserve to get promises of any sort from their daughters.

(As it happens, I'm perfectly content with the sexual decisions I made, decisions that kept me from having an unwanted pregnancy, an STD or any negative consequences, but those decisions were made for MYSELF, not for some asshat who grudgingly supported me for a few years before getting bored with the parenthood thing.)

[JVS]

167. Last time I checked Nambla wasn't about chastity pledges

[kerry-is-my-prez]

170. These said that 80% of the girls have sex within 18 mths.

[Bucky]

171. I totally disagree. I think it's a great message to girls

I'm not sure I'd tie the dance-date with dad to the virginity pledge--that's a bit patriarchal for me. This should be a family value reinforced by all family members, not just the dad. But it's still a nice thing to encourage in young girls. I also like the idea of dads-n-daughters dance. When my daughter was a girl scout we had a couple of sponsored dances like this and it was a lot of fun and a great bonding moment--nothing sick about it. So don't be so puritanical. Dancing is fun and brings families closer together.

[stanwyck]

174. Again. Read the article. This dance-date IS

tied to virginity AND to Dad "giving" his chattel to her future husband "intact". You're sugarcoating what the original post is about with a Girl Scout dance.
So...if you "totally disagree" then you're endorsing the idea that these girls belong to their fathers and their worth is weighed by their intact hymens -- which are the province of their fathers and future husbands.
And the majority of us find that creepy.

[Bucky]

177. I'll thank you not to misrepresent me and tell me what I mean

So... if you "totally disagree" then you're endorsing the idea that these girls belong to their fathers and their worth is weighed by their intact hymens -- which are the province of their fathers and future husbands.

Friend, you have no idea what I meant. What I wrote included "I'm not sure I'd tie the dance-date with dad to the virginity pledge--that's a bit patriarchal for me. This should be a family value reinforced by all family members, not just the dad." How you get from there to me saying girls are their fathers' property is beyond me and frankly beyond logic. I was in fact saying the exact opposite. Sorry that I'm not goose-stepping with the reactionaries on this one.

[stanwyck]

179. Then why did you

"totally disagree" with those of us opposing the ceremony and say "it's a great message for girls"?
The ceremony is about Dad being the gatekeeper for his daughter's (his very young daughter...) chastity. Read the article. And you stated to those of us who oppose this, you "totally disagree"...which means...you AGREE with the original post's article. And you think it's a great message.
You then backed off from your own statements with your "I'm not sure I'd tie the dance-date, etc..."
So. You don't REALLY "totally agree".
Which is a good sign.

[gollygee]

172. I would have been grossed out if my dad had asked me

to promise him to remain a virgin till I got married.

I can't imagine that even occuring to him. Or him not thinking it was super creepy too if someone suggested it.

[Iris]

200. yeah, one thing I don't want my dad knowing about - my sex life.

Of course, I'm pretty certain he doesn't want to know anything about it either.

[stanwyck]

181. And, as we can see, it's not just the Republicans

(as stated in the original thread) who are sick freaks. I can't tell you how incredibly disheartened I am by so many posts supporting this Dad as the keeper of Daughter's hymen ceremony. The daughter is a vessel who is given from one man to another. Her worth is measured by her ability to remain intact.
Why not a ceremony connecting Dad with Daughter's intellectual development?
But no. This ceremony is about her "purity". Her (not the son, of course) future "gift" to her husband.
(she's a little girl and already we're talking sex and marriage. Not college or career. Marriage talk with 8 yr. olds).
And this is 2006.
And these are posts from liberals.
No wonder we haven't had a female president.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

183. This Ceremony Is NOT for Me, and It IS a Bit Creepy

That said, unlike you, I am NOT about to label folks whose sincere religious beliefs drive them to functions like these (and as you can see in this very thread, there are both father-daughter and mother-son purity balls) as "sick freaks" or, even worse, wanna-be or actual child molesters.

You are taking an extreme position using inflammatory rhetoric. Accordingly, you should not be surprised when people disagree with you about it.

And by the way, you are not the arbiter of who a Democrat is, or who a liberal is.

DTH

[stanwyck]

195. Fortunately

I have plenty of company.
Read all the posts here.
I'm not alone in feeling having Daddy as the keeper of his daughter's hymen is totally inappropriate. And, quite frankly, I'm surprised to find people who consider themselves liberals to be so enamored of viewing daughters as chattel who need their Daddy's protection of their private sexual organs.
If that's extreme. Fine.
I'm glad to be on the opposite pole from the Rev. Falwell and Islamic fundamentalists on this one.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

201. You're About the Only One Labeling Them Child Molesters

And when people go too extreme the other way, they're just about as bad as the right-wingers.

And by the way...

And, quite frankly, I'm surprised to find people who consider themselves liberals to be so enamored of viewing daughters as chattel who need their Daddy's protection of their private sexual organs.

...that is one of the biggest straw men that I have ever seen. No one is arguing what you claim they are arguing.

DTH

[JuniperLea]

184. Who died and made you the culture police anyway?

Can't you just agree to disagree? Does everyone have to agree with you and follow your rules in order for you to be happy? What is wrong with holding a few traditions? You yourself said that kids are having sexual thoughts at that age, yet you find it abhorrent that a parent would attempt some guidance in that area?

Yes, it's 2006. And some of us still want to remain a virgin until we are married. Shocking! And none of your goddamn business if the truth be known. And what people care to teach their children is none of your concern either.

You aren't a liberal... you can't stand that people have other cultures, traditions or beliefs. You want everyone to be cut from YOUR cookie cutter.

Life isn't like that, nor should it be. Deal.

[stanwyck]

193. You accept all traditions, then?

all? Mutilation of the clitoris? There's a tradition. Honor killings? In favor of them? Child slavery?
Most people have some frame of reference for their ethics and morals.
Being liberal doesn't mean not having standards. And mine include respecting our daughters. I'm for a ceremony where Dad places his guardianship over his daughter's intellectual development. Not her hymen.
If "what people teach their kids is none of my concern" then do you want the folks next door teaching their kids to make bombs? Torture animals? Use the playground for target practice?
I could care less if people want to remain virgins until they're married.
I just don't think Daddy should be taking his 7 yr. old daughter to the prom as his date so he can talk to her about her private sexual parts.
Read Hugh's post.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

202. More Straw Men

You are attempting to compare physical mutilation and murder and terrorism, with a creepy but physically harmless event that is apparently based on sincere religious conviction.

Your posts reek of hysteria.

DTH

[JuniperLea]

207. Am I wrong, DoveTurnedHawk?

Am I not speaking of Constitutional rights here? I'm so confused by the fact that some of these people can't get the point I'm trying to make! You seem to grasp it...

To me, these posters want to take away another's freedom of religion. I'm against that. If these people were mutilating or raping these girls, that would be quite another issue. But that is not the case.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

225. I Know What You Mean

It's a topic about parenting, religion AND sexuality, any ONE of which can spark a big brouhaha, here and elsewhere. Witness just about any thread on spanking, circumcision, Islam, Christianity, or teenage sex.

Some people go to extremes, but most people in America are somewhere in the broad middle. We definitely get more extremes here, however.

DTH

[JuniperLea]

227. Thanks

I just don't want anyone to tell me what to do... and I don't want to be put in handcuffs when I put out offerings of tobacco and corn in my backyard! The only way I can see to keep my rights is to support the rights of others.

:)

[JuniperLea]

203. You haven't been paying attention at all... no wonder you are confused

I think you are beyond hysterical on this to the point you cannot get the point!

I have mentioned such things... mutilation, etc., and stated quite clearly that you are acting as if this is what these people are doing!




Hugh has never been a virgin woman. And the arguments he gives are purely subjective.


I'm betting you hate the Amish too, and wish to see laws prohibiting them from practicing their religious rights.


If you want to do away with the right to freedom of religion, you must not give a flying rat's ass about the freedom of speech and the freedom of the press either. Hell, you must think that the Constitution is just some stupid piece of paper!

[HughBeaumont]

188. I'm a male parent of a ten year old boy, and I'm with you 100%

This is creep-fookin' nausea-inducing disgusting. Just more insecure males asserting their control over their trophy progenies in a batshit-weird prom designed as a package that their princess will cherish, all the while not questioning the very incorrect and ineffective premise behind it all.

Has ANYone here taken a sexual roles class or at least read a book or watched a special on it? One of the things they teach you is the proper way to introduce sexual education to children, which is GRADUALLY and comprehensively according to maturity level. Placing pressure on children to be chaste until marriage as early as seven is painfully inappropriate, and as studies show, ineffective and discriminatory.

Should anyone be introducing the idea, which in all likelihood hasn't even been thought of by the young child, of pre-marital intercourse to small CHILDREN? Think about that. Then there's the puritanical practice of absolute control over the female child's development, but not as much emphasis on that of the male child. Real Robertsonish, if you ask me.

You know what else? From personal experience, this whole huge moment of "deflowering" that the girl or boy is saving theirselves up for is about as wonderful and beautiful as receiving a dog turd in a box, to be quite honest. I felt awkward, clumsy and not at all aroused during it. I was continually apologetic and demanded that she tell me to stop should this hurt her in any way or if she wasn't ready. I felt sick and queasy and sad and extremely guilty afterwards, and I'm quite positive she felt the same way.

Yeah, what a big night THAT'S gonna be: one really painful, unenjoyable and anti-climactic action. Aren't you glad you saved up for THAT? I would NEVER EVER want to go through that again and would hardly consider this "present" a gift to ANYone. On edit, I'm ALSO glad I got this out of the way, and would definitely not want this sort of thing to have happened on my wedding night. Shouldn't your honeymoon be enjoyable and not painful for the woman and incredibly awkward for BOTH parties?

[stanwyck]

192. Hugh. My hero

absolutely brilliant post.
I hope people read and learn.
We have some folks here who are scaring me.
Thanks for taking the time.
Again. A wonderful post.

[HughBeaumont]

196. Thank you. I think it's about

. . . asking oneself: is this idea or methodology appropriate? This is NOT appropriate, not progressive and far less effective than simply fostering your child's intelligence and decision making process. The recitation of those oaths are the worst: telling the girl from a young age "you are not equal, you are property meant to be passed from me to your husband, and you cannot be trusted to make your own choices in life".

[Tari]

213. In their minds, they being the males in power & the women/girls they've

"trained", are not supposed to enjoy it. That is dirty & sinful. There's some passage in the bible about childbirth being painful & it's some sort of punishment. These twisted men go to their mistresses for the "fun" sex.

[baby_mouse]

182. What IS this?

???

[NoodleyAppendage]

190. Here's a choice photo of a "couple" in NO DANGER of impurity.

Yikes!

[Jigarotta]

198. yah, Yikes, what a nerd looking guy. nt

[HughBeaumont]

199. Didn't bolo ties go out of business with Chess King?

[JuniperLea]

210. Pure opinion...

Some people get off on that look;)

[newspeak]

218. this thread is quite nauseating to me, literally nauseating

so those of us who have been molested as little girls, where do we fit in? I have at least five women friends who have been sexually molested at a young age with many scars. Some molested by their self-righteous fathers. There is nothing wrong with a father and daughter dance, but the purity thing is freaking me out!!!! I should have never come to this thread because I'm emotionally very disturbed by the discussion. It took me a long time to even have an older man touch me and even longer not to feel "soiled." I have taught both my daughter and son to respect their bodies and that no one has the right to touch them without their consent. Their body and sexuality are their own. My hubby and I didn't preach abstinence, but did ingrain responsibility for their actions and accepting the consequences--and a dose of love, that we would always be there for them. This is a free country and this group will do what they want, but it is disturbing for me.

[JuniperLea]

220. I'm so sorry

What a god-awful experience. I've never been raped, and I cannot even know what you've been through. Your perspective is very different from mine because of that.

You did nothing wrong! It's not hard to understand why you feel as you do about this situation and this discussion! Good God! You are so very brave to even read through this thing! Seriously, I'm near tears here thinking how you must feel! Scratch that... they are flowing now. I'm empathetic to a fault. I can very easily put myself into other people's shoes. I'll not pretend I know exactly how you feel, but I can empathize.

No one is saying that women absolutely MUST remain virgins until they are married! No one is even saying that is the right thing to do! All I'm saying is that these people have the right to teach their children as they see fit. Period!

All that being said, I completely agree with the way you raised your kids in this regard. It is exactly the way I raised my own.

This group is not forcing their beliefs on anyone but their own children. People posting here act as if they are having this idea forced upon them. That is wrong. It is short sighted, selfish and IMHO damn stupid.

I'm sorry. I really am.



:hug:

[newspeak]

222. it is the "purity" thing

a couple of my friends were raised Mormon (body is a temple, undergarments) you know the whole "purity" thing, but my one friend and her sister were molested by the father---my other friend, same religion, molested by her father. There are good Mormons, heck my hubby's aunt and uncle are the best people and are Mormons--but some men must have a certain perception of females to do such things to their daughters. Again, I say I'm not against a father and daughter dance, but the "purity" thing goes too far. And, as I said before, this is a free country and what others do (as long as they are not hurting others) is up to them. If girls are making purity oaths at seven and eight, I hope these fathers don't expect them to honor them when they get older. Because some fathers may be greatly disappointed--things happen and people make choices.

[JuniperLea]

226. Awful!

Too gross to think about being molested like that. Horrid. Not all religious people are like that... in fact, no matter how you want to draw the social lines, no matter how you want to group people, there's an asshole and a pervert and a sick mofo in every group.

I was raised total Fundie... Assembly of freaking God Fundie. I was totally into it! I sang in two choirs, had my own music ministry, the whole enchilada. Then the pastor had an affair with a married woman in the church and his wife tried to kill herself when she heard. Then some of the elders tried to tell my my music came from the Devil because it had a rock and roll and sometimes a blues bend to it. Nice, huh? Still, there are a lot of people in that church that were just plain great people. The experience really changed the way I thought about religion. All that being said, I still support the rights of people to belong to an organized religion. I'm still very spiritual, but religious things tend to freak me out.

[phrenzy]

228. Promise Breakers

Oh I'm certain that, once they turn 18, there are no shortage of guys out there that will break right through that superficial "vow" that daddy forced them to take.

It reminds me of this line I heard from "that 70s show" - which I swear I've never watched in my life, I just stumbled on it and laughed at this line:

"Man, I love catholic school chicks... they don't know what NOT to do!"

So true.