Those of you that are quick to blame the victim or consider rape to be sex

[KitchenWitch]

Come back and talk to me after YOU have been raped.

That is all.

[southernleftylady]

1. I agree.. and i would like to add to those who said abortion should be ..

onlyin cases of rape or incest...
how would you make a victim prove it?
how many rapes and incest cases arent reported..
and how many of you knew you were preggo right after it happened?
i cant stand that responce...
its all or none ...

[cain_7777]

74. and I agree with you...

Most rapes aren't reported, and even when they are it is met with skepticism and racism like in the case of the Duke rape. This country has devolved since Bush stole office; racism has grown and morals have eroded because of the christian right. As to your question about how a woman must prove she was a victim of rape to recieve an abortion if she didn't report it; the christian fundamentalists trying to pass this garbage know the statistics, and are banking on that so only a small handful can actually recieve an abotion. The majority of women who did not report it and can't prove they were raped are SOL.

[mmonk]

2. I haven't checked the threads concerning the Duke

scandal, but are people really doing that here?

[supernova]

3. Yep.

Sad to see on a progressive board.

[KitchenWitch]

5. Yes they are

It has been downright ugly.

I have gotten truly sick to my stomach on a number of occasions.

[rodeodance]

17. i try to ignore.

[KitchenWitch]

18. Yes, the little red x has become my friend.

[DELUSIONAL]

77. good thing that god invented the ignore button!

I use it often.

[Cerridwen]

86. god....or Elad, as the case may be...

:D

[AllieB]

8. It frightens me that Democrats or progressives could have such attitudes

but they are coming out in droves on the Duke threads.

[LostinVA]

97. I'm thinking most are actually neither... and maybe never were

[AllieB]

145. Good point

I haven't seen such hate toward victims, except on right-wing message boards.

[LostinVA]

157. Me neither -- and many of the posts cross the line

in my opinion, from heated discussion to out-and-out nasty flaming.

[OzarkDem]

295. Not all DU'ers

I think threads like these bring out the Repub trolls.

[nonconformist]

36. Me either, and I'm damn glad I haven't

if people are blaming the victim.

[LostinVA]

95. And, not just one or two

Alot... and they are saying some really, really nasty stuff. Rape=sex. Rape is a fetish like porn. It's the woman's fault for "dressing like a slut" and teasing a roomful of "horny young men." Woman's lib causes rape. etectecetc.... Hundreds of posts... some are very disturbing, because it's rather obvious people are trying to actually JUSTIFY rape... a very frightening and creepy mindset.

[TankLV]

304. I haven't seen any of that.

But plenty of people condemning the accused and automatically believing the alleged victum without knowing all the answers.

That's all I see.

If your allegations are true, that is truly sickening.

But I have decided not to venture in those threads at least for the time being.

Too many assumptions all around by EVERYONE.

[alcibiades_mystery]

4. It is absolutely amazing

I actually saw someone on these boards suggest that good-looking people couldn't be rapists, since they wouldn't be "hard up" for sex. It is absolutely astounding.

That said, I am always dismayed when something like "personal experience" is used an an argumentative trump. Many of these issues don't require personal experience for argumentation, and the suggestion that they do borders on gnosticism.

[KitchenWitch]

7. I agree with you, mostly

However, the ones that are quick to blame the victim in most cases have not been victimized themselves.

[mmonk]

9. Glad I've steered away

from those threads. I come here for information and informed opinion as well as like minds.

[KitchenWitch]

12. I have not steered away

and I have been very sorry about it.

:hi:

[Thtwudbeme]

16. Alex Kelly was good looking. Hell, Ted Bundy wasn't bad looking

(oddly though, in his young photos he kinda looked like GWB)

[LostinVA]

111. Ted Bundy was quite handsome as a young man

[Quakerfriend]

6. Thank you for saying this, KW. And, thank god for DNA to prove

,or disprove, a rape.

It's my belief that perhaps as much as 50% of ALL women are raped, at some point in their lives.

I say this as one of six sisters and after having had many close friends, roommates and etc. tell me of their own experiences over the years.

[Divernan]

19. No DNA found if rapists used condoms.

Prosecutors in Duke case are saying that there is other proof that rape occurred, even though no DNA matches found. I would think that might be tearing, bruising, evidence of physical violence.

[KitchenWitch]

22. There would also be no DNA evidence if...

for example, one used a foreign object, such as a broom to penetrate the victim.

[TheMadMonk]

40. I once did some back of the envelope calculations...

...and came up with a figure in the vicinity of 90 odd percent for sexual assaults in general at sometime during a woman's lifetime and that was using the figures for reported assaults. Using the estimate that only 1 in 4 assualts are ever reported that figure climbs to better than 95%.

This of course is all assaults from a drunken grope to Bilal Skaff's delightful (not) efforts to improve race relations.

[LostinVA]

112. I agree with your 95%

I always say I've been sexually assaulted, but not raped... what woman hasn't??? Precious few, unfortunately.

[helderheid]

69. Every woman in my family has been raped at least once - hi Friend

[AirmensMom]

10. You said it, KW!

:applause: :yourock:

[Oversea Visitor]

11. There is no point

trying to talk to a man when he is thinking with his dick.

[mmonk]

13. I think rape is about

power and control maybe with some violence issues with that person as well. Not so much about sexual attraction.

[KitchenWitch]

14. THANK YOU!

:applause:

[Oversea Visitor]

27. I read the arguement

here between Duer about sex and rape
The act of rape is not sex

I am a man
But the act of rape got nothing to do with sex

It depends on how one view sex
My view that it is more than just physical activity to acheive orgasm by participants
There is also the satisfaction of the spirit, the soul ... and much more

However when one view sex
as a physical action to satisfied one own physical urge then it is up to them. No different here from a dog or animal.

So when one say rape is sex then I just say the person is thinking about anumal need nothing more but the satisfaction of his/her animal need.

I cannot somehow seeing a dog and a bitch going at it and call that sex.
So therefore I am one of those people who will never equal rape as sex.

The arguement here therefore is very subective depending on how one view the word sex

Having say all this I enjoy sex
So how can I degrade myself to calling a rape sex..... it is total disgusting.
Hence my statements of no point talking to a man who is thinking with his dick
The unspoken words are brains heart soul etc.....

[mmonk]

30. I'm a man

that has been very attracted to women but forcing myself on one is not in any way a sexual urge. There's something else going on. Maybe it comes from the brain stem or the animal brain, but I can assure you it's not sexual as far as sexual attraction goes. Look at rape victims and they don't fit a pattern. The victim can be a child (male or female), an 80 year old, etc.. That's why blaming the victim for looking sexy or because they are a stripper or escort always is ridiculous.

[Oversea Visitor]

33. Agree

Rape ugly thing even animal got courtship ritual. Rapists hence worst then animal..... x(

[mmonk]

35. You got it.

At least animals are going on instinct alone.

[LostinVA]

114. Rape doesn't have anything to do with a need,e tc.

Animals have sex, rape isn't sex, although animals do have non consensual sex.

Rape really has nothing to do with sex.

[raccoon]

42. I think that's true the majority of the time.

I also think for some rapists (who would never think of themselves as rapists) they are intertwined--they like sex with some power and control involved.

Or they think "she just needed some persuasion."

[mmonk]

44. Which dovetails with my point

something else is going on (whether subconsciously or not).

[bloom]

105. The thing of it is - just because there may be

some rapists who confuse rape as a form of "sex" - does not make it so. And people who agree with rapists should know that they are legitimizing psychopaths.

Some rapists apparently are in deep denial and see nothing wrong in using a knife to "have sex" - and others readily admit that the rape was all about control, power and trying to hurt women.

[raccoon]

121. I agree.

"some rapists who confuse rape as a form of "sex" - does not make it so."

[LostinVA]

118. Rape isn't sex, no matter what the rapist says, they are never intertwined

Rape is the weapon that is used in a violent act of control and degradation. No feelings of thought of sex is involved.

[LostinVA]

113. It has nothing to do with his penis

And everything to do with being a sociopath. Rape isn't sex...

[William769]

15. I myself would never blame the victim.

But I always go after the aggressor for the death penalty.

[Atman]

23. Killing people is always a good solution!

:eyes:

I'm sure some people will completely misread this as some sort of "support" for rape. After all, this is DU. But please...the death penalty? Note, I didn't say the death penalty for rape, I'm saying the death penalty? period.

How on earth do you justify killing another person? What does it accomplish? It hasn't stopped war criminals, murderers, rapists, child molesters, anybody, ever. Yet your answer to deal with the issue of violence against women is to kill people????

*yikes!*

[William769]

25. Actually it's quite simple, you just throw the switch.

Some people don't deserve to be on this earth.

ON EDIT It's just one "war criminals, murderers, rapists, child molesters" that we have to deal with.

[femmedem]

318. I'm going to gently ask

if that is always what the victim would want? In my case, friends offered to find the perp and break his legs, etc. I begged them not to. The rape showed me what a terrifying capacity for violence people have. I was horrified to learn that my dear friends had the same capacity. I didn't want anyone hurting anyone on my behalf. I didn't want to add to the violence in the world.

If I'm ever raped again, I wouldn't be able to tell my husband, because I know he'd be out for blood.

[Thtwudbeme]

20. The Duke threads have freaked me out

I don't know if those boys that were arrested are guilty or not because there hasn't been a trial yet--but, I do know that the DUers picking up bits from the defense attorney and spouting them as "facts" to "prove" their innocence is the ugliest thing I have ever seen on this board-ever. Even the anti-abortion people didn't get this damned ugly.

I don't get it. There are a couple of people here that I swear had to be at the party, or related to the arrested kids. The passion in the posts is just bizarre as hell.

[LostinVA]

120. Or have been at similar parties -- that's what I think

Seriously. It is truly frightening me... seeing this level of..... abnormal functioning on here.

[Iris]

137. I totally agree. In fact, I 'm probably going to duck out of here for a

while. I frequently take breaks from this place, but I'm considering a permanent one.

Yesterday, there was an extremely long thread about "being moderate" with lots and lots of people climbing on board.

Add that to the "what's wrong with 7 year olds going to a dance dressed like a little bride and making a virginity pledge" - well, I used to come here in search of more enlightened attitudes, but those have all but disappeared at this point.

[Jade Fox]

293. I do think are some men who...

have quite a bit of guilt about rape because they have come uncomfortably close to doing it, knowing about it and doing nothing, or fantasizing about it.

I agree that the posts about this on DU have been very disturbing. I've avoided them for the most part.

[LaurenG]

21. Hi KW

it happened to me when I was 16. I never reported it because I was afraid and felt as if I had done something wrong. The way that these cases are handled I probably still would not report it if it happened again. It's devastating, demeaning and traumatic.

I still have a difficult time with attention from men and do not trust them when or if I feel they are "checking me out".

It turns a happy care free person into someone else and the trust at least for me has never returned. Strangers who are men are to be kept at a distance at all times. It turns into a life long endeavor to develop trust.

People are insensitive because they don't think about how it would feel to be violently penetrated by a nasty, smelly, ogre who hits you and threatens to blow your head off if you fight. I agree, those who are not supportive of the victim should keep silent, it's hard enough as it is.

[KitchenWitch]

24. Thank you for sharing that with us.

You have tremendous courage and strength.

:hug:

[Mad_Dem_X]

48. You are so brave for sharing that

I've never been raped (knock wood), so I can only imagine what someone must go through, and having to live with that the rest of your life can't be easy. :hug:

[Shine]

93. I am sorry that happened to you, OhioBlues.

:hug: Thanks for your Courage in telling the story. Breaking the silence is a big part of the healing...

[dr.strangelove]

132. I am so glad you have overcome, and I hope you continue to heal

You are incredibly brave to be able to post about that crime. Thank you for sharing your experience. I truly believe that people like you who share your stories give strenth and courage to others will help other victims know that one can survive these terrible crimes, though the damage is very real. You are obviously a strong woman. I hope your healing process continues.

[harlinchi]

26. I came in to deride you for making such a statement!

I couldn't believe folks here would do that in any numbers at all. I haven't visited the threads you all mention but I did read the comments posted so far. I am sorry to find that, once again, I'm wrong; some folks do believe as KitchenWitch asserts. All I can say is that there are some good guys in the world. I hope all of y'all who seek one find one. I hope all of y'all who have one recognize the fact. As women achieve higher and higher positions of power in larger numbers, this kind of attitude must decline, for the sake of the men as well as for the women.

[KitchenWitch]

28. I am married to one of the good men!

I am glad you came into this thread!

[harlinchi]

162. I hope he feels as lucky as you do!

I'm sure it wasn't luck, exactly. I'm sure it took some judgment on your (and his) part, as well.

[wryter2000]

89. Of course there are good guys in the world

There are some good guys in this thread. IMHO, it does all the many good men in the world a disservice to suggest that raping is a "guy thing" or that all men defend rapists.

[dr.strangelove]

133. Well said

I like to think I am one of you "good guys"

[dogday]

29. These are the same ones who yell "Rule Of Law"

when it came to Cynthia McKinney, but have a charge of rape and suddenly the police are incapable of making any type of decisions and rule of law goes out the window.. They can't have it both ways...

[izzybeans]

31. Rape is an act of violence that shows how twisted the

double standard about sexuality is. It's where all the attempts to repress female sexuality come home to roost. It functions to replace pleasure with fear and then blame them for this fear and the source of this fear. That's why rape is both an act of dominance and sexuality. Sex by brute force and/or submission. The men who rape, and most of them are not the violent stranger hiding in the dark, may not have power in their mind while pressuring their "date"; but their act of sexual coercion is an act of domination because this relationship is not a partnership. It has become the "I'm gonna get mine whether you like it or not" situation. That is the essence of any form of power. When people wield power they are performing a task with an explicit intent of doing something other than mere domination. Such as profit-seeking in the economy, sex-seeking becomes an act of power and domination in this -situation. That's why the last person to recognize oppression is the oppressor. Evil looks in the mirror and finds virtue; the dominated know it is merely a carnival mirror, but they can only convince them through protracted struggles. The lacrosse player thinks "but she was just a stripper", the stripper says "but I'm also human."

But that is not the only twist. Victims of such acts are then made to feel remorse for setting off the "uncontrollable" male; as if they have to be gatekeepers to their own repression; locking them into a passive relationship with sexuality. What could I have done to prevent it? The only reason that matters is because check mate has already been won. I will resign myself to a lifetime of defensiveness and fear, and for objective reasons (once again check mate).

My wife is a partial victim, she fought off her attacker. The experience was enough to completely change her. We have had to work together to build a partnership "in bed". She had to relearn (or learn for the first time) pleasure and walk away from the fear created by that brief encounter she had in high school (the person went around claiming she was a lesbian because she refused to be pressured). And I had to relearn what it meant to be a "lover" because my ideas of partnership assumed "the past is behind us". That's how power operates via sex; two presumed equals will not be operating on equal grounds because of this. It took me a while to recognize that fact. We still deal with it; but she is no longer alone and silent about it; and I no longer take that for granted.

The tale of the stripper and the lacrosse player should be seen as an ideal typical situation of rape. Uber-masculine college boys and uber-feminine dancers, where masculinity is defined by winning the game, and femininity is defined by the seduction of the "gatekeeper". The stripper may operate economic power over the male by entrancing him in his own desires; but that came crashing down in an instant. This woman will never be the same and that is a shame. Nobody deserves to live with that kind of fear. Not my wife and not "some stripper", who has other elements of her biography to point out that are more meaningful, such as "college student", "daughter", her name, etc.

Anyway that's where I am with this.

[KitchenWitch]

32. Thank you!

Your wife is a fortunate woman for being partnered with such a sensitive and enlightened man.

[izzybeans]

34. I really appreciate your comments.

and the Op is a much needed conversation, a continuous one.

[KitchenWitch]

37. Yes it is

I had to make it a separate thread, since it would have been lost in all the Dook threads.

[izzybeans]

38. To true.

I applaud you and I'll be back in to read the rest of the comments for the sake of knowing what other responses will be.

Thank you for this.

[raccoon]

47. Great post, especially your first paragraph.

" the "I'm gonna get mine whether you like it or not" situation "

A lot of the time date rape is like that.

edited to remove "nt."

[Mad_Dem_X]

49. Excellent post!!! n/t

[lukasahero]

53. What a wonderful post

Thank you for sharing this.

Your wife is lucky to have a man who is willing to learn and try to understand her perspective.

"And I had to relearn what it meant to be a "lover" because my ideas of partnership assumed "the past is behind us"." This is an incredible insight/admission - true courage runs here.

[cally]

59. Thanks for this post and to KW, thanks

The Duke threads have been the worst I've ever seen on DU. I've been relieved at the number of men who are enlightened and have entered the threads chastizing some of the posters.

I love your phrase: "gatekeepers to their own repression." So true.

[fleabert]

88. Your wife has good taste.

thank for a wonderfully insightful and intelligent post.

[genie_weenie]

39. Those who blame the victim are completely wrong.

But, what strikes me as odd is the rush to have the State destroy those who have been accused. I saw more compassion for the convicted murderer Stanley 'Tookie' Williams, then for the 3accused, not convicted Duke players and none for the innocent 43 Duke players who found themselves slandered and chided for hiring attorneys.

And I agree with those who find it as abhorrent that the State should have th power to put to death those it should be serving. But, it's been interesting to see those calling for the case to be proved before sentencing have been rounded thrashed for attacking the victim.

[KitchenWitch]

41. This thread was more commentary on folks equating acts of Rape

with acts of sex, and the propensity to blame the victim. "She was a stripper" "she was dressed provocatively", etc.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty, and honestly I have no idea whether the Duke LaCrosse players are guilty or not. That being said, obviously the Grand Jury believes there is enough evidence to support going to trial. Whether there is enough evidence to surmount any reasonable doubt has yet to be determined.

[genie_weenie]

43. KW, I don't demean myself to call

those "She was a stripper" "she was dressed provocatively", "she had it coming" arguments because they are not. And I think you would be better served by not trying to convince those persons.

But, this case has been tried in the Media, and the media love it!

I hope the prosecution has a good case, because if not, this is going to have more legs than the Tawana Brawley incident due to the internets.

Edit: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1

Here is a link to the alibi for one of the accused.

[TheMadMonk]

65. It may be a sad comentary on the human condition, but...

to at least some extent the first two are are contrubutory factors. However, they are IN NO WAY excuses for rape.

Any sex industry worker who operates without proper security arangements is taking a huge risk. They many not be "asking for it" in the sense that the phrase is often used to defend the indefensible. However, placing themselves in positions of great risk (and I susspect that working for sporting teams comes close to topping the list) without adequate protections is essentially contributory negligence. It does not make what was (or is) done to the victim any less wrong, but it does help explain how they came to be victims. This is not a judgemnt on the profession, simply on the unsafe way it is sometimes (often?) practiced.

One might not blame a person who wanders the darkest paths of Central Park wearing Armani and Gucci whilst talking on a $1000 cell phone for being mugged, however, virually everyone would agree with anyone who commented on their idiocy. Yet anyone who dares make similar comments about a rape victim are somehow themselves "asking for it" and deserve all the flack that flies their way.


Rape is a horrible, horrible act. So horrible that surely it behooves those who are at greatest risk to take every reasonable precaution to avoid becoming vitims themselves.

It is another sad comentary on the human condition, that victims who place themselves in positions of risk, dilute the defences of victims who contributed not at all to their assaults.

[Mandate My Ass]

103. We are only responsible for our own actions, not a rapists

"taking every reasonable precaution" places the responsibility for the rape squarely on the victim's shoulders, unless your narrow, subjective criteria are met.

Rape is a crime because it's not sex, it's a nonconsensual dehumanizing assault. As one counsellor told me afterwards, it doesn't matter if you were drunk and dancing down a crowded street naked, nobody can use that as an excuse to rape you.

[latebloomer]

158. No, they can't use that as an excuse to rape you

But if you dance down the street naked you are a damned idiot. And you are not taking care of yourself, you're not protecting yourself, and you need to be sat down and told some basic truths about the world as it is, not how we wish it could be.

Yes, work on raising people's consciousness, changing laws, but in the meantime, take care of yourself!

[bloom]

110. We are all "at risk"

Statistically - at least - just by being alive - and many women and children are attacked at home - doing nothing. Sleeping.

The putting yourself "at risk" argument does legitimize rapists - whether you want it to or not.

Someone could suggest that all women stay away from Fraternity houses and Sports team players - does that then make it "understandable" if they are raped when they don't? Some people have argued that. It's nonsense. It's the men who have to be held responsible.

[lukasahero]

139. Please check out the results

to this poll. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=964818&mesg_id=964818

Specifically at the 36 votes from women who were raped by an aquaintence or family member. What "position of risk" did these women place themselves in? Are you suggesting that we should not trust our fathers, our brothers, our husbands? Should women not have male friends? Should we be escorted by family members on dates?

It is a fallacy to continue to speak of rape in terms of women putting themselves at risk. The truly sad commentary is that women are at risk for simply being women. According to the results of at least this one poll, walking naked down a dark city street puts us at no greater risk than being alive.

[TheMadMonk]

254. If they CHOSE to remain in an ongoing abusive situation then...

...yes they did probably contribute at least as little. If the attack comes like a bolt out of the blue then, as a rule, no they didn't.

I DO NOT define "at risk behaviour" as comin' within sniffin' distance of a dick. So please don't say things that imply that I do. IF THAT is the best you can do in a debate then hie thee off to Free Republic where such techniques are more welcome.

MMA: you might want to check your words since in your reply to me you have managed to agree with what you dishonestly claim is what I have said. (You too can hie off to FR too if that is the standard of your debating technique.)

I place the responsibility for rape squarely and solely on the shoulders of the rapist(s) and no one else. Got it everyone?

A victim MAY sometimes stupidy, or naively contibute to creating a situation which leads to their being raped. However, the person ultimately and solely responsible for the act of rape is the rapist.

Bloom: Legitimate or not, it is a defense that will be used and unfortunately there is a very high likelyhood that it will be enough to scotch "Beyond all reasonable doubt." particularly if the victims is a sex worker. Thus sex workers for their own safety (and the safety of their colleagues) need to take every reasonable precaution when plying their trade. AND if the worst does happen, they stand a reasonable chance of seeing justice done.

(edited for bad tag)

[Cats Against Frist]

45. Is there no "gray area" here?

For crying out loud -- I have yet to see one person come out and say that the victim bears the ONLY responsibility for this particular Duke rape.

I am of the opinion that the rapists were, obviously, the persons responsible for this rape, and should go to jail, have their balls lopped off -- whatever. That said, I also feel that this third-wave feminist bullshit is a steaming crock, and that people who provide warm bodies to the sex industry are a danger to women -- and not only a physical danger, but an emotional danger, a self-esteem danger and a "why the fuck is some dude paying to 'talk' to a stripper, when he probably has a lonely and neglected wife at home," danger.

I'm not against all pornography, and not against sex, either. The sex industry, however is largely about serving the sexual "id" of the male species. How anyone can stretch this out to be "empowering for women," blows my fucking mind. I think that's exactly backwards.

So -- no -- I don't believe that this woman "deserved" what she got -- and she was a victim, a long time ago, when she decided to sell her body to male titillation culture. That said, I'm not going to be moved to shed a tear for women who put all women in danger -- and that doesn't just include strippers, but any woman who perpetuates the narrative of sexual dehumanization and objectification.

On edit: and b) as far as rape being about sex or power -- I used to believe that it was only about power, as well, but some astute DU poster put me in my place about that, a long time ago. I don't know where he or she is, now -- but it seems that it is a combination of both. And usually, only the people who are arguing it is both have any facts to back them up.

[greyl]

75. Yes, a huge gray area.

However, a few are unwilling to even consider that possibility for one reason or another.
There was a Berkeley study a couple years ago that revealed that one identifiable difference between liberals and conservatives, is that liberals are more comfortable with ambiguity and that conservatives tend to categorize concepts in black and white fashion:

Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:

* Fear and aggression
* Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
* Uncertainty avoidance
* Need for cognitive closure
* Terror management
________________________________________________________________________________

This intolerance of ambiguity can lead people to cling to the familiar, to arrive at premature conclusions, and to impose simplistic cliches and stereotypes, the researchers advised.
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

I bring that up as some counterpoint to those who launch ad hominems ('you're not a real progressive' or worse) against others who would simply like to see any evidence for the common yet extreme claim that rape never has anything to do with sex. www.nononsenseselfdefense.de/german/bonding_process.html

Given the subject matter, it's not surprising that the discussions can become very heated, but it's troubling that some enter the discussions heated and unreasonable at the onset.

[mmonk]

91. A nude woman dancing in front of me

or on my arm has never enticed me to the idea of raping her. That being said, there are some sick people out there, especially people associated with "rape" scenario pornography.

[Cats Against Frist]

98. Well, that's my point

Rape, whether we like it, or not, has been eroticized. And sub-dom has been eroticized through BDSM. Power and sex and eroticism are so inextricably bound up, that it makes zero sense to proclaim that rape is "only this," or "only that."

And I don't think that all males will want to rape a nude woman dancing in front of them. I do believe, however, that most of the narratives that affect pornography, and by virtue of that, our own view of our sexualities and the sex industry are pro-male, pro-domination, pro-objectification and pro-dehumanization. I think that women who provide their bodies for that narrative perpetuate the eroticization of rape, the eroticization of power/dominance, provide outlets to many males who should be focusing on their wives and children, create body image disturbances in females -- the list goes on, really.

[mmonk]

100. I agree

except I don't want to offend anyone here in the sex related industry that doesn't contribute to the normalization of rape as sex theme. When I was young, I had a few friends who were strippers.

[TorchTheWitch]

143. HAHAHAHAHA!

create body image disturbances in females

Well shame on me if the sight of my fit attractive body gives some out of shape woman a complex. Of course it's all MY fault that my shapely fit self gives some woman bad feelings about her own body! I should be ashamed to look the way I do, and immediately wear baggy clothing at all times in public to hide what may give some low self esteemed woman body image issues. Naturally it's just impossible that her low self image is HER fucking problem.

Hand me a burka immediately.

And give one to Tyra Banks while your at it. God knows it's all HER fault that low self esteemed woman can't stand the sight of themselves in lingerie.

I can immediately see that you've never set foot one in a strip club. Do you honestly believe that we're all gorgeous perfect bodied bombshells... you know, like the fashion and advertising industry has? Nothing could be further from the truth. If it's one thing this industry recognizes and EMBRACES is the realization that men find ALL types of women attractive and sexy. Even top shelf clubs will have overweight women, flat-chested women, top heavy women, bottom heavy woman, black, white, brown, yellow, red, old, young... ALL types of women. One of the top 3 earners in my club is a woman who is VERY much overweight... by like 50 lbs... and customers LOVE her. She has a great personality, sensual as can be, confident, funny and she BANKS.

I swear I'm seriously beginning to think that woman plagued with body image problems should come into the strip clubs and see with their own eyes that men find woman of all shapes, sizes, colors and ages attractive and desireable.

[Cats Against Frist]

146. Unfortunately, I've been in several strip clubs

and I used to have many friends who were strippers. I didn't single out "strippers," specifically, as being the ones who contribute to the body image problems. I consider "the sex industry," to encompass strippers, prostitutes and porn stars, as well as celebrities and models, and anyone whose sexuality is used to make money.

These kinds of posts CRACK ME UP (you think you're laughing), because deeply (or not so deeply -- it's pretty obvious) -- within your post lies the embedded hierarchy that you're denying is a problem:

Well shame on me if the sight of my fit attractive body gives some out of shape woman a complex. Of course it's all MY fault that my shapely fit self gives some woman bad feelings about her own body! I should be ashamed to look the way I do, and immediately wear baggy clothing at all times in public to hide what may give some low self esteemed woman body image issues. Naturally it's just impossible that her low self image is HER fucking problem.

It's clear that you attempted to elevate yourself, and perhaps create a feeling of self-worth in your comparison between your "fit attractive body," and "low self esteemed woman body image issues" (sic). If people weren't valued based on their physical attractiveness, you'd have no need to flaunt your inclusion in the "in group."

One in five nine-year-old girls has anorexia. Are you going to make yourself feel better by elevating yourself above them? The reason that they have anorexia is because their mother probably doesn't look like the girls that "daddy" looks at on TV or the Internet. While mommy is shaving, powdering, enhancing and dying things to look more like a Playboy spread, so daddy finds her more desireable, the little girl is watching it all.

And strip clubs are even sadder, because they bridge that gap between "fantasy" and "reality" -- by yes -- displaying real women, but in the context of the hot-lights, frilly lace, shaved-snatch, "she's a maniac on the floor," bullshit. It just brings home how sad that narrative is.

[TorchTheWitch]

208. Nice try

Unfortunately, I've been in several strip clubs and I used to have many friends who were strippers.

And the day I believe that is the same day that angels, George W. Bush and Gypsy Rose Lee fly out from between the cleft of my firm delicious buttocks (even though others may not find my buttocks to be as firm and delicious as the "ideal", but their opinion doesn't matter to me).

I notice you say these supposed stripper friends are no longer your friends. Seeing as how you judge strippers so harshly it's hardly a stretch to assume they are no longer friends because you find them unworthy of your friendship based solely on what they do for a living. How fucking OBJECTIFYING and DEHUMANIZING.

You also said in another post regarding the stripper who was allegedly raped by Duke lacrosse players that you wouldn't shed a tear over if she was raped BECAUSE she was a stripper. How fucking OBJECTIFYING and DEHUMANIZING.

You also said in another post in the same Duke rape case thread that strippers who are raped are equally as responsible for their rape as the rapist (which THANK GOD got deleted). How fucking OBJECTIFYING and DEHUMANIZING.

I eagerly await the day that you realize that YOU are the one objectifying and dehumanizing strippers when you believe this rubbish. And the day I believe that is going to ever happen is the same day that angels, George W. Bush and Gypsy Rose Lee fly out from between the cleft of my firm delicious buttocks (even though others may not find my buttocks to be as firm and delicious as the "ideal", but their opinion doesn't matter to me).

It's clear that you attempted to elevate yourself, and perhaps create a feeling of self-worth in your comparison between your "fit attractive body," and "low self esteemed woman body image issues" (sic). If people weren't valued based on their physical attractiveness, you'd have no need to flaunt your inclusion in the "in group."

No, it's clear that's what YOU want to believe. How would you know what my body looks like? I said it was fit and attractive because *I* think it is. I'm fit because I'm in better physical condition then I ever have been in my life, have more energy, get less injuries and feel more healthy. My body is attractive because *I* say so. You or anyone else may think otherwise. The important thing about that is I DON'T CARE. You say I'm "flaunting" myself as part of an "in" group that includes overweight, skinny, flat-chested, bottom heavy, top heavy and every body shape imaginable when the only thing in common with that "in" group is that we LOVE how we look. And yeah, I'd be damn proud to be included in a group where whatever we look like WE think we're hot and love how we look regardless of what the supposed "ideal" is and to hell with anyone who doesn't like how we look because their opinion isn't what matters.

I'll thank you not to decide for me how I value myself... and how I value myself doesn't include outside appearance. I value myself for a ton of reasons that also include being able to freely embrace people who do things I wouldn't choose to do myself, for not judging other people for what they do or don't do however much that may differ from what I do or don't do and being able to accept and love myself just as I am.

One in five nine-year-old girls has anorexia. Are you going to make yourself feel better by elevating yourself above them?

Elevating myself above them? I WAS that anorexic girl, lady! I was anorexic for over a decade and even after forcing myself to stay at a weight where I wouldn't die I still wrestled with my anorexic demon until I STARTED STRIPPING. It wasn't until I got into an environment that I was finally able to learn first hand that men are attracted to and find desireable ALL types of women. In that environment for the first time in my life I can work or not when I please, how I please within the law and control how I work. In that environment for the first time in my life, the people I work with have my back in a customer dispute. I can't even count all the ways this has changed my life for the better. I wasted so many years of my life in therapy and on anti-depressants and even locked up for three days in a clinic and forcefed so I wouldn't die. I had to have every single tooth in my head gutted and capped because of the damage I did to myself as an anorexic. And after all the therapy and medication I was never able to finally and totally be convinced that I was totally worthwhile as a PERSON until I started stripping.

What the hell do I have to do with a nine year old girl's body image problem when she has no way to see me until she's 21 and is allowed in the club, and the likelihood of her ever coming in is next to zero? I know first hand that anorexia isn't about wishing you could be as thin as the twiggy models skipping through Vogue, it's about the lack of self worth which starts in the home. It's about feeling your life is not your own and a need to control SOMETHING. Don't even TRY to tell me about anorexia, lady, because I've LIVED it.

And it NEVER had anything to do with my watching my mom prettify herself for dad because she never DID. But it did have everything to do with my feeling abandoned and marginalized in the family and the continuation of that as an adult in the "worker bee" corporate world. It had everything to do with my mom being a fundy and trying to instill a belief that my body was "bad", needed to be hidden and not even touched by me who owned it and was only for function and not to be appreciated or enjoyed by anyone including me. According to mom, my body wasn't mine, it was "God's Temple" except God never seemed to be interested. And dad? Hardly even knew who he was until I'd already left home. Not that he wasn't there, because he was. His idea of being a father was to bring home the bacon and keep a roof over our heads, and discipline or lecture us when mom said we needed it, PERIOD.

I love my parents, and I know they did their best in raising me and my siblings, but unfortunately, they had old fashioned and Catholic church controlled belief systems. No parents are perfect, and I never onced blamed them for how I turned out. Their parenting methods simply just didn't work for me. When I needed help, they got it for me, participated in my rehabilitation, were supportive as they could possibly be and struggled to change their belief patterns for my sake... which is fucking heroic compared to you. Thank God I didn't have you as a parent.

My previous lack of self worth started in the home and went directly there to the corporate world where I was treated like a cog in a wheel. I was a WORKER, not a PERSON. The only reason they new my name was so that they had something to put on the paycheck and something to call me to get my attention so they could give me more work. I was Worker X who was expendable and disposable.

You've got a lot of damn gall judging everyone else and determining their worthiness or lack thereof. One of the biggest objectifiers and dehumanizers I've seen on this forum so far is YOU. From what I can tell from things you've said here you'd slit your wrists and light yourself on fire before you ever once entertained the thought that you could be wrong in believing it is perfectly acceptable to marginalize, dehumanize, judge and find unworthy an entire group of people you don't know who wear a certain label. Where I come from that's called being a BIGOT.

And the day I ever entertain the thought of reading one single post of yours after this is the same day that angels, George W. Bush and Gypsy Rose Lee fly out from between the cleft of my firm delicious buttocks (even though others may not find my buttocks to be as firm and delicious as the "ideal", but their opinion doesn't matter to me).

I'm done with you.

[Cats Against Frist]

229. Oh for glory's sake

Why does this read to me like a "what people have to tell themselves to be able to look in the mirror" diatribe? I'd totally respond, but, since you're done with me, I won't -- except for to say two things:

a. I don't see people who work for the sex industry as truly horrible people -- I just hate what they do.

b. I never said that the Duke victim was responsible for her own rape in the sense that she "deserved it," or that because she entered a house full of 40 horny brats that she somehow invited it. They should have kept their fucking hands off her, and if they are found guilty, should face the harshest punishment the law will allow. My position is much more abstract. And, in fact, I got permission to put that post back up, once I realized that like three words in that post conveyed something other than what I meant to say. I just didn't put the post back up, because I figured it was a waste of time. BUT the reason that I pursued the mods in letting me have it back was because of this EXACT situation: that someone would accuse me of saying something other than what I meant.

[DrunkenMaster]

264. that was AWESOME!

Wow....I'm just stunned. What a great response.

[Neil Lisst]

269. you're representing well

I've known well a few dancers, and there are an amazing number who are thoroughly smart, articulate, and fully understanding of exactly what they are doing and why. They do not get enough props for that. It's not all dancing. It's expert conversation.

How can you not like a place you can go at noon, and it's already dark and they're playing rock or hip hop music? And the women? Even better. Big screen TV with news on it. Another one with sports.

Or so I've heard.

[femmedem]

321. Hi Cats. I'm going to talk about ambiguity again.

What do you make of the many dancers and other sex workers whose choice of profession was influenced by being sexually assaulted? (I'm not at all saying poor, poor strippers or implying that strippers need or want sympathy.)

In another thread, I posted almost a love song to dancers and my experiences as a dancer. And I stand by that. And yet I will also say that had I never been raped, I wouldn't have become a dancer.

After I was raped, my boundaries were smashed. Nothing mattered. I rationalized that I decided to dance because I needed the money (true) but there was more. I wanted to leap into the abyss. I needed to revisit the trauma, live there, change it, reconstruct it, make it mine.

I never expected that what started as essentially a self-destructive act would become so healing and empowering. But it did. I swear it did.

I would explain more but I've got to go to work.

[TygrBright]

150. YES! YES!! YES!!!

Thank you, Torch, thank you!!

You said what I've been trying to get across for YEARS, ever since I learned it myself, the HARD way, after half a lifetime of depression and fighting reality.

Whatever your natural body type is, there are men who will find it attractive. But (I can hear the howls) THOSE guys are losers, icky fetishists, yaddayaddayadda...

Well, some of them are, just as a whole lot of the shallow yobbos who can't bear the thought of putting their sacred winky inside any female who doesn't look like a Vogue model are pretty icky.

The point is that the GOOD guys, the ones worth a woman's time and effort, are the guys who have finally figured out the post-adolescenthormonal truth: "Sexy" is about so much more than appearance. A "sexy" woman is the one whose eyes light up when you wink with "that" look. A "sexy" woman is the one who doesn't care that your back is hairy and your feet smell at the end of the day, she'll sneak into the shower with you and grab the soap out of your hand anyway.

Yes, guys have a far stronger gonad/eye/brain conditioning circuit than women do, but it's only PART of their sexuality.

A woman who loves men, loves herself, and loves sex, will attract men who love women, love themselves, and love sex.

Rock on, Torch! Would love to see yer act someday.

happily,
Bright

[geniph]

186. Bright, I have to say how glad I am to see you posting again

You are much missed whenever you absent yourself!

:hi:

[TorchTheWitch]

223. Thanks

If you're ever in Philly let me know. I hop around between a few clubs here. And I promise I'll try extra hard to not let one of my slip-on shoes fly off into your head (It's happened - very embarrassing... actually, just for you I'll swear off them entirely).

[femmedem]

319. HaHaHa! I had that happen too! n/t.

[mongo]

149. Is porn in general

pro-domination of women or does it challenge the social convention that women control sexual access?

[geniph]

187. I don't think you can generalize about it

SOME porn challenges social conventions, and some of it very much reinforces them.

Three guesses which kind I like!

[Mad_Dem_X]

46. Thanks for writing that

It sickens me that some so-called progressives on DU still have this "she asked for it" mentality.

[latebloomer]

50. I was raped

and I think that some of the people who were vociferously attacked on the other thread were not excusing the rapist nor blaming the victim, but merely stating that girls and women need to protect themselves and not take foolish chances. I agree with this 100%.

As a 20-year-old, hitchhiking stoned through the streets of Boston, I knew damn well that what I was doing was stupid and reckless. That in no way excuses the person who raped me.

I will be teaching my son to respect women, but I will also be teaching my daughter, just as I told her when she was very small not to approach a car from which a stranger was calling her, to take proper precautions and protect herself from the predators who are all around us.

[KitchenWitch]

51. My points are twofold

Stating that rape is sexual in nature is wrong.

In circumstances which a woman/girl does not "take proper precautions", rape is still rape, and the responsibility lies with the rapist and the rapist only.

[seabeyond]

54. i was raped and damned to hell by a du'er

because i feel like the poster above. you want to hear from rape victims, ONLY if they talk your line, otherwise we are to be quiet, we are repulsive, damned to hell, hate women.....?

this poster once again says it has NOTHING to do with letting rapist off the hook. and you ignored that and stated

"rape is still rape, and the responsibility lies with the rapist and the rapist only."

as if she didnt say exactly that. you dismissed this person that experienced rape, and her interpretation of it because you didnt like her answer. as was done with me.

at no point, not a single person i read about has EVER said the rapist is NOT totally responsible for his act.

[bloom]

115. If you are saying the woman is partly responsible

you ARE saying that "the rapist is NOT totally responsible for his act".


If you think of responsibility as 100% - what percentage was the woman responsible? It's either nothing or something.

[latebloomer]

156. Thank you

I agree with Kitchen Witch that rape is not about sex, and that the rapist bears full responsibility for his act.

And, of course, rape very often occurs in situations where nothing the girl or woman did could have contributed to the outcome.

But why do people have to be so absolutely dogmatic as to dismiss the possibility that sometimes people do STUPID things and take reckless chances that could expose them to danger, and that they need to learn to protect themselves from predators?

Right now there's a rash of robberies in my town, and invariably you hear that the victim did not lock their car or house door. Don't rail against the world--we KNOW there are assholes among us-- Lock your damn doors!

:eyes:

[geniph]

188. I think the problem is that we tend to focus on the victim

because it is so much easier to say "Gee, if only she hadn't done this or that, or had done this, that, or the other" than it is to look at a rapist and say, "what the FUCK is WRONG with you that you could do that to another human being?"

Certainly there are things we can do to minimize the risks. But there is NOTHING we can do to prevent all rape. Women are raped in their own homes, their own beds. Women are raped in cultures where they are covered head-to-toe and never leave the house without a male escort. It's easy, but it's specious, to blame the victim's actions. The fact is that the vast majority of men can watch a woman dance naked or give a ride to a teenage hitchhiker, and rape never enters their minds. Even if it does, carrying out something like that is unthinkable. We need to focus not on the easy solution of telling girls not to wear miniskirts or hitchhike, and figure out what the hell we do about that small minority that thinks they're entitled to forcible sex.

[latebloomer]

297. Thank you for your courteous reply

You're right that a great many rapes take place that could not have been prevented by anything the victim did or didn't do. A huge number of them happen between family members and people who know each other. And there's no way I would tell my daughter not to wear a miniskirt. I would, however, BEG her not to hitchhike, or to go home with a stranger (another time when I was nearly raped) or any of the other stupid shit that I somehow survived.

And of course the focus needs to be on the rapist himself, and what could possibly make a man become so brutal. And on the proper punishment, and rehabilitation, and on prevention and education and psychological help.

But the discussion gets very polarized here, with some people absolutely REFUSING to look at the fact that women need to learn to protect themselves, whether that be by learning self-defense moves, being careful what neighborhoods they go into, being vigilant in certain situations, not taking foolish chances. They interpret that as blaming the victim, and it's not. It's about protecting the potential victim, and preventing these crimes in those cases where it's possible.

[miss_american_pie]

52. Or almost raped

I was very lucky once, and that interaction (for lack of a better word) was all about power for the males involved.

[MountainLaurel]

55. Yeah that.

:applause:

[etherealtruth]

56. Some of the commentary on threads here ...

...have defied my belief (r/t the fact that some comments are attributable to progressives).

[jukes]

57. i'm appalled

at the # of posters in these threads w/19th century views that women are to blame (at least partially) for rape.

i really thought this was supposed to be a progressive forum.

surprisingly, many of these misogynist have turned out to be women and use that as an excuse to back up their sad little theories.

as if women cdnt possibly be misogynists!


personally, i think a LOT of freaks are wanking w/ 1 hand y typing w/ the other. bet it costs a fortune to get the lotion cleaned from their keyboards!

[Cats Against Frist]

58. I want you to explain how it is misogynist

to say that the sex industry, of which 90 percent caters to the male "id" and is packed with violence, rape fantasy, domination, power imbalance and objectification, is a danger to all women. People who willingly participate in perpetuating these narratives are harming all women -- both women and men.

I believe that women who participate in the sex industry are a danger to other women who would hope to have a healthy, non-objectified, non-dehumanized sexual life.

Quit accusing me of being a misogynist, and attempt to understand the point I'm trying to make. Even if you don't agree, it is a stretch to assume that my position comes from "hating women." And I think that it's borderlining on a personal attack.

My opinion comes from hating the male id's sexual narrative. What motivation do you have to defend the sex industry and its narratives?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cats Against Frist]

62. Yeah, you're right, you're done

Since all you've been able to do is personally attack me, and make "funny" of the whole situation. You're not going to explain it, because you can't. So I'll explain it for you: you are a male. That's your motivation for defending dehumanizing and violent male sexual culture.

[seabeyond]

63. self deleted

cause i was actually angry in the post. and generally, even in argument, i am not in anger

not with you cat. i agree with your posts. something we havent even touched on yet

[mmonk]

109. Though I do agree with your posts in many respects,

especially in the themes of rape as eroticism, I am curious as to where male strippers fall. The sex related industry is quite broad. I don't want to make it too easy to blame the industry which could lead to blame the victim in cases such as the Duke case.

[miss_american_pie]

73. So you hate the male subconscious

for sexual desires?

[Cats Against Frist]

80. I think there's a difference between subconscious and narrative

We all have the desire for sex. That said, the desire for raping a "barely legal" Asian in high-heels and a g-string has much more than simple biology or a kind of unconscious/subsconscious behind it. If we're going to defend that, we should go ahead and defend war, murder, etc. -- anything that is a part of human experience.

Subconscious, too, is socialization. Socialization is the perpetuation of narrative. These things are too appealing to the male subsconscious to give up. The same male who would denounce SUV drivers, people that hog out on high-fruitcose corn syrup, or get off on moving money around to make the "little people" suffer. It's no different -- people just like to make excuses for sexuality. And why not -- it's a basic primal urge.

[miss_american_pie]

122. Okay, thanks for clarifying

But even if certain desires are a continuation of socialization, they had to come from somewhere. Chicken or the egg argument there, I imagine.

I don't really care so much about what people think/feel as much as how they act on those desires/feelings.

[Cats Against Frist]

126. Well, yeah -- I get what you're saying about the "chicken/egg" thing

But, again, this can be applied to just about anything -- violence, greed, war, etc. We strive to be better, and we don't let the darker sides of our "nature" or our "narrative" take over. We try to keep people from being harmed. To stave off poor actions -- we change the mindset behind it. But, people like their "dirty" sex, just fine, and don't see a problem with it, while decrying all other forms of human oppression. It's hypocritical -- and it has consequences for the actions that people take.

[LostinVA]

125. Or are saying they are women

[TorchTheWitch]

154. I'm not surprised at all

surprisingly, many of these misogynist have turned out to be women and use that as an excuse to back up their sad little theories.

It's the sex worker crowd they hate. And they hate us because they're terrified that their man enjoys porn or going to strip clubs because they aren't interested in them or don't find them attractive anymore, and they're terrified their man will find a stripper more attractive then they are and lose him to her. What they don't understand is that we don't want him, we want his money. But they don't like that idea either... their man spending money on a woman they find attractive. Their man is free to spend money on any other type of entertainment that he likes EXCEPT a woman he finds attractive that is not her. And I can appreciate the concept of a woman not liking their man to spend money on a woman that isn't her because he finds that woman attractive (and when I say attractive, here, I don't mean just physically), but they are blaming the wrong person. This isn't about objectification or dehumanization, it's classic "blame the other woman."

But it's perfectly ok if the same woman goes to see a movie with some hunky actor in it (especially if he's not wearing much or any clothes) just because they find him attractive. If their man objected, they'd scorn him for being oppressive. And if someone were to point out that going to see that movie with the hunky actor in it just because (or mostly because) he's considered hunky that they are objectifying and dehumanizing that hunky actor, they'd deny it up down and sideways and claim that it's perfectly normal to appreciate a good looking hunky actor because he's hunky.

I freely admit I rented the movie Jarhead JUST because Jake was all over the screen for most of the movie with not a lot of clothes on, and I loved every minute of it. Was I objectifying or dehumanizing him because of that? Hell no. I was appreciating a good looking guy with a nice bod who also happens to be a good actor... and that is NORMAL.

It's all about THEIR personal comfort zone. Anything that is outside THEIR personal comfort zone is WRONG. Doesn't matter what anybody else's comfort zone is. If it's different from their own it's WRONG.

Don't like porn? Don't watch it.
Don't like stripping? Don't go to strip clubs or have one come to you.
Don't like prostitution? Don't pay for sex.
Got a problem with your man doing any of this? Get rid of him and find one who's personal comfort zone more closely matches yours.

[Cats Against Frist]

189. This is sick -- and the reason that I don't have sympathy for sex workers

You are OBVIOUSLY getting off on feeling superior to those poor, fat, child-bearing wives at home, and revelling in the fact that they are hurting. That's FUCKING SICK. LIke I said -- I hope you're getting off on the image of a nine-year-old who is puking her lunch up in the school bathroom.

This third-wave feminist bullshit is an OBJECTIVIST viewpoint -- meaning please yourself, and mine the poor saps for whatever they've got, and get your money and your jollies off of human misery. It's no different from a corporation making money off the backs of workers and reaping gimungous profits.

You don't "make men happy," or "provide a necessary service" -- you provide a haven for men who are either too selfish or too removed to have healthy, normal human relationships. They don't want you for "companionship," -- they could get friends that aren't naked if they wanted companionship. You're providing them with an outlet to reclaim some sort of pre-pubescent fantasy that they lost whenever their "emasculating" wife demanded that they buck up and act like mature person, instead of a little boy.

And, as you've made patently clear, you don't give a fuck about the victims of the sex industry -- children, wives, other women who'd rather be treated well, instead of like muff-waving trash.

[LostinVA]

202. Very interesting POV.... actually, all of your posts have been interesting

And no, I'm not flirting with you on a rape thread... I mean it!

[TorchTheWitch]

215. hee hee

It was the fingernails... I know. ;)

[LostinVA]

301. I like the girly girls... I admit it!

[femmedem]

320. Sadly, I used to see this sometimes even among dancers!

The dancers in RI thought the dancers in MA were whores for dancing fully nude. The dancers in MA thought the dancers in RI were whores for allowing more physical contact. And both of them, by using the word "whore" as an insult, made it obvious how they felt about another category of sex worker.

That was all in the early and mid-80's, though. Later, there seemed to be solidarity and acceptance.

[porphyrian]

179. Having a little fantasy yourself, jukes? - n/t

[BoneDaddy]

60. Where is this coming from?

I have been following this topic on various threads over the past couple of weeks and I don't think anyone on here has stated that they believe rape to be sex.

I think what people respond to is multi-fold. For those DUers who have been violated, molested or raped, this case holds tremendous emotional power, that I think, in many cases, does not allow them to see the whole case rationally and were ready to lynch these boys. But the facts are pointing to some real holes in the prosecution in regards to DNA, alibis, timing etc...

Where I certainly can understand this reaction to such an alleged crime, I cannot give a pass on the intellectual honesty of such reactions.

[miss_american_pie]

67. Did you just call all rape victims irrational?

And I think the argument has gone beyond just the Duke case, but they're men, not boys.

[seabeyond]

68. call all rape victims irrational? i didnt see that anywhere

i read his post. i will re read agAIN. BUT I AM JSUT SURE I DIDNT SEE EMOTIONALLY IRRATional anywhere. hit cap accidently

[miss_american_pie]

72. That's why I'm asking for clarification

I'm not sure if he meant that all rape victims are irrational or female DUers who have ecrtain opinions about this case are irrational.

[BoneDaddy]

117. Let me clarify

Not all victims of rape and violence are irrational. Some people who are still untreated and trapped in pain can be very irrational and do not think clearly. They see a story about a victim of something similar that they went through and they personalize to the point that they cannot think logically or rationally about it. They over identify without even checking out the facts or even attempting to stay objective.

This whole Duke situation has brought out a bit of this in a good many of the DUers who have been abused, molested or raped. They see a victim and immediately react and identify with the victim instead of seeing the whole picture, even in light of DNA evidence, accurate alibi's, contrary statements by the other dancer, etc, but they still feel a need to condemn they young men, protect the dancer even thought the facts are still coming out.

Now I am not minimizing this at all. In fact, if it turns out that these young men did do this heinous act, I am for maximum punishment for rape (which is waayyy to low for me...in my book if you rape, you stay in jail until your bones are brittle and you are old).

But in the event that the young men didn't do this, we are doing a grave injustice to them by assuming guilt and overidentification with the alleged victim.

[miss_american_pie]

124. Thanks for the clarification

[BoneDaddy]

128. No problem

Thanks for understanding

[BoneDaddy]

79. Hehe so typical

Yeah, I called rape victims who are reactionary without the facts irrational. I am not saying all rape victims are that, but all too often I see people (men and women alike) who have been legitimate victims of a sexual crime, pathologize everyone or every situation like this without looking at the facts and jumping to conclusions. They see victim, over identify and are incapable of intellectual honesty. Hell you are doing it right now.

I understand it, I just don't agree with it.

True, they should be considered men and not boys.

[LostinVA]

129. Yes, he did... and yes, he called them "boys"

[BoneDaddy]

131. Legally

they are men, but intellectually, emotionally etc, they can still be "boys". Adolescence does not automatically stop at 18. I am referring to their attitudes.

[bear425]

85. You say you don't think anyone here stated that rape is sex...

see here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=957110&mesg_id=961793

[greyl]

94. That link doesn't say what you claim it does.

"Rape is sex" is not to be found there.

"sometimes that's why people rape. It isn't just an act of violence." is there.

(all bolding mine)

[bear425]

116. Yes, you're right. The words "rape is sex" are not there in the link.

I was referring to the words of the poster I responded to, not the original poster I linked.

Here is what the original poster said: Call it sex, coitus, fucking, whatever, sometimes that's why people rape. It isn't just an act of violence. That's simply not true, and lying about it is doing nothing to stop rape.

It doesn't say rape is sex, but I think you may be parsing a little here.

emphasis: mine

[greyl]

136. Precise language is no less important when discussing rape.

I haven't seen anyone say "Rape=Sex", but there are plenty of claims that people have said that, and it seriously botches up the discussion.

[porphyrian]

190. Thank you for being sane. - n/t

[BoneDaddy]

96. Got me there

but it is only one, or a few compared to the vast vast majority of the 80,000 posters on DU who disagree with that poster, who was most likely looking for attention. One or two idiots do not comprise even a minority of posters on DU. And they took that person to task, and rightly so.

[bear425]

106. Yes, I agree that poster's comments do not reflect the majority here.

but, the comment stood out to me-so much so- that I remembered it and thought I should post the link for you and others to see.

[porphyrian]

192. Apparently we speak different forms of English.

Thanks for assuming I was being a pro-rape asshole, though. I'll be sure to give you the same consideration in the future.

[bear425]

265. Umm. Don't think I assumed that.

I merely pointed out to someone that some people here feel that rape can sometimes stem from a desire for sex. Your post stood out to me. Did you not say that?

I really don't have the strength or desire to argue with you, so if you want to take my referring to your post personally, go ahead.

[porphyrian]

191. I'm neither an idiot nor looking for attention.

But thanks for wrongly saying that I am.

I'm so fucking sick of the sycophantic stupidity displayed by so many.

[LostinVA]

127. Then you haven't been on the Duke threads... and, how dare you?

This has been a theme of some of them..

We don't know of ANY holes in the prosecution... we have only heard Defense spin.

And, I have thank goodness never been raped, but HOW DARE YOU steal away the right of rape victims on DU to discuss this subject? How dare you. Not rational? They have more right than you or I to discuss this.

Using "lynch" is just so clever, isn't it? 99% of everyone on the threads are not advocating "lynching these boys" -- you know, these MEN, not boys. We are advocating the victim's right not to be smeared and lied about by the Defense. She is a rape victim -- the ER SANE's report says that. All these calls of false accusations, she's a slut/ho/prostitute, hoaxer/Tawna Brawley II/con artist, etc. are sickening.

"The boys." Jesus.

I am also FUCKING tired of the DU rape victims also being treated like shit on these threads. To all of you directing your nasty, lying crap to these brave women speaking up on these threads: crawl back to the nasty, filthy, creepy holes you come from. Seriously. Leave them alone.

[BoneDaddy]

141. First of all

What the fuck are you babbling about?
Is DNA spin? Is the young man at the ATM at the time of the alleged rape spin? Is the other female dancer countering the alleged victim's story spin?

When I first heard about this I jumped on the bandwagon to prosecute these MEN, then I started reading it.

You have some real warped sense of reality:
Nowhere have I condemned rape victims... I am only asking for reactionary fuck ups like yourself to show some restraint and don't judge until the situation has been fully looked at.

Why don't you show some intelligence and look at my previous posts before you open your fat mouth.

[Catrina]

153. I'm puzzled by it also. I was in some of those threads and am wondering

what I missed. Not one person excused rape, murder, theft or any other crime.

I did notice though, that it was absolutely mindbogglingly forbidden to say 'let's wait for the evidence that these particular people are the guilty parties'!! On a progressive board!

The encouragement of women to become entertainment for men I find also to be pretty disgusting. I thought on a progressive board we would be encouraging women to reach higher goals more in line with their potential. Of course maybe some don't think women have any more potential than being used as entertainment for college frat boys! I have wondered about those who are encouraging this, about their real feelings about women!

[BoneDaddy]

159. Thank you Catrina

I am convinced that people SEE what they want to see and if anyone remotely questions their emotional experience as possibly influencing their cognitive functioning or questioning an experience that has negative power for them, then you must be advocating abuse, rape and violence. It is sad but true, cause these folks often end up being extremely abusive themselves and NEVER ever want to look at it. For them being a victim gives them power and NOBODY should ever question their motives.

[LostinVA]

160. You were on one of the threads that excused rape

And blamed rape on the victim... over nd over again. There have been other threads saying this.

And, it certainly isn't forbidden to say wait for all the evidence to come in -- that's our point. People are blaming the victim, etc. without hearing ANY evidence except Defense spin.

"Reach higher goals"??? We have quite a few present and former strippers on DU. What gives you the right to judge them like that? To judge them falsely, I might add. I encourage women to do whatever the hell they want to with their lives with no judgments, as long as they are freely doing it: stay at home moms, lawyers, barista, strippers... whose damn business is of of anyone's???

I actually have found many of YOUR posts rather anti-women.

[Catrina]

164. I will address you without the animosity you feel compelled to address me

with. I do not recall your posts anywhere, until you addressed me now.

Please, post a link to someone who 'blamed the victim' ~ I never saw one.

As for your statement 'I have actually found many of YOUR posts rather anti-women'. How so? Is wishing that women will finally achieve their true potential as intelligent human beings capable of doing more than serving as entertainment for men, suddenly 'anti-women'? If that's your opinion, you are entitled to it but you could be wrong. Mine is that pushing women into the sex industry is anti-women, I am entitled to it but I too could be wrong.

We all have opinions, there is no real need for you to be nasty to make your point. You might persuade me that my opinion could be wrong, but certainly not by attacking me. I feel attacked by your post, and without provocation, since I have not attacked you. Why do you feel the need to do that? You appear to be very angry with anyone who dares to disagree with you. I am not angry that you have a different opinion than mine.

Oh, and yes, I have been a victim of sexual assault as have most women in some way or other. I will not allow the attempted abuser to turn me into a bitter, angry woman. He doesn't deserve that kind of power. It's a beautiful world despite those who try to make it otherwise. I intend to see the beauty and good in what is, imo, the vast majority of people. Including men, most of whom in my experience, are good, decent human beings.

Have a nice day :hi:

[Neil Lisst]

166. thanks for your very sound post on the topic

I hate to see labeling, and labeling people as "blame the victim" is disingenuous. No one here has "blamed the victim." Many here have used the same logic they do on any issue to find problems in her story.

[TorchTheWitch]

263. Pushed?

Nobody pushed me into the business, I freely chose it for myself and can vote with my feet and leave it any time I want. I'm not "used" as entertainment, I freely as a matter of pure personal choice provide entertainment when, where, how and why I want to. If I don't want anything to do with any customer I'm free to tell him to pound sand and get out of face, and if he doesn't I've got bouncers who will make him.

I have, however, been terribly used in the corporate world. Worker X who's only purpose is to arrive at a time they say, do work that they say and how they say, leave when they say, deal with clients I hated because they said I had to and got paid shit wages for the privilege. Nobody cared crap one about my intelligence or my feelings, and the only thing about me they cared enough to know was what to call me when they wanted my attention so they could give me more work. And when they realized they could get two or three part-timers to do the same work for less money they sacked me.

How many customers have you ever had that would pay you to rub your stinky sweaty feet just because you ask them to? And what the hell difference does it make if he does it because he lusts after me or hopes that it will encourage me to like him? The shmuck is PAYING me to rub my stinky sweaty feet because *I* want a foot rub!

I think you're confused about who's using who.

[Catrina]

274. You also have shown an unfortunate disdain for the women in the lives of

those men who, apparently have so little self esteem that they feel the need to go to a stranger who actually despises them, in order to feel some sense of satisfaction. What a sad and deceptive world that is.

You complain about the corporate lack of interest in you as a human being, then state your own lack of compassion for the women who are being cheated on by the men you feel nothing for, but are, like the Corporations, interested only in the bottom line. Is this how the corporation thought of you, and what make's you any better?

The shmuck is PAYING me to rub my stinky sweaty feet because *I* want a foot rub!


You confirm for me why I believe this is not a world I would want for any woman (or man for that matter) I cared about. You are all adults, you can do as you like as long as no one gets hurt (I question whether or not no one gets hurt. Wives and children are often badly scarred when they learn their fathers and husbands are cheating on them) and I, as I already said, have the right to my opinion on the subject.

How many customers have you ever had that would pay you to rub your stinky sweaty feet just because you ask them to?

Why would I want some stranger to pay me for that? I prefer to engage in 'foot rubbing' etc. only with the person I love and who loves me and if I were one of the wives of those men, 'schmucks' as you call them, he would be all yours as soon as I found out about it.

I have a real problem with lies and cheating, and with liars and cheaters.

I know plenty of people who work for Corporations and are treated very well, btw ~ so we all have different experiences I suppose. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.

[Cats Against Frist]

296. Thank you for this post. n/t

[miss_american_pie]

163. Any time someone says she shouldn't have been there

they are excusing rape (if that's what happened).

Women are entertainment for straight men, just by existing. What do "higher goals" and "potential" have to do with whether or not she was raped? She went there to do a legal and financially lucrative job.

I have wondered about the attitudes of people who find expressions of sexuality beneath themselves.

[Catrina]

169. If women are entertainment for straight men just by existing, then

men are entertainment for straight women, just by existing. Personally I like to decide when I choose to be entertaining, either sexually or otherwise, and those who know me best, find me to be extremely entertaining, on both counts, when I choose to be. :-)

I think you must be confusing me with someone else because I'm at a loss as to your question 'What do "higher goals" and "potential" have to do with whether or not she was raped?' I know I certainly never made that connection so I would not be able to answer it.

My position, just so you don't confuse me again with someone else, is that rape is a vicious crime, as is murder and the perpetrators need to be caught, indicted and convicted once their guilt has been proven.

Your question, and I could be wrong, I often am, says to me, that you are making some connection, however subconsciously, with the woman's choice of occupation, and the crime of rape? Am I reading you wrong?

'If someone says she shouldn't have been there, they are excusing rape'. Well, I'm the wrong person to address that to also, since I never said she shouldn't have been there. I gave an opinion that was only remotely related to this particular situation. I haven't addressed this case at all, since I don't watch TV and have no idea, other than what I'm reading here, about it.

Again, just so you know: I believe everyone, men and women have a right to choose what career they want to follow, I also reserve the right to say I don't agree with their choices. Plenty of people have disagreed with the choices I have made regarding work. I don't take it personally, why do you, why should those who are working in the sex business care what I think? I also think being a prison guard sucks, and told my prison guard friend so. She laughed, I still hate her job, and she loves it. Life goes on.

For a progressive board, there is an awful lot of anger at people who have a difference opinion. I could be persuaded that I am wrong. I have often learned new facts that have changed my mind. But the vitriolic, accusatory tone directed at those who have an opinion on this subject, does nothing to present new information that might change minds.

'You catch more flies with honey' ~ and of course, facts.

[miss_american_pie]

173. My questions was

what her choice of profession, and your opinion of it, have to do with who is responsible for her rape, if she was raped. You've since cleared that up. Thanks.

In your OP, you stated "not one person excused rape." IMO, anytime someone says any variation of the "she was stupid to be there" theme, in any rape, they are excusing the rape to a degree. And I honestly can't remember who said that in the other thread, but posts expressing that opinion are there.

My point about entertainment was that some men will find women "entertaining" even when they aren't trying to be. And some women will find men entertaining when they aren't trying to be. And I don't for one minute believe women who work in the sex industry are just entertainment for men, and I don't believe all men see them that way either.

[TheMadMonk]

271. Tell me. Is it stupid...

to rush into the roughest bar in town waving your ticket above your head to celebrate your PowerBall win?

Of course it effing is.

Likewise a sex worker who operates in an uncontrolled environment without adequate security precautions is courting trouble. The trouble, if or when it comes, is however, solely the responsibility of the attacker(s) and I have no arguments there. My sole argument is that in some cases, a victim's actions significantly magnified the chance of their becoming a victim.

[Neil Lisst]

170. Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.

or women ... People see what they look for, more often than not.

In a case like this one, it rapidly becomes an ink blot test for some citizens. To me, it's not about Duke, or privilege, or athletic teams, or escorts, or race, or rape stats. It's about the evidence that tells the story of what happened.

[Catrina]

281. Yes, as it should be ~ if we are to preserve any kind of justice ~

that's why I do not watch these cases on television. I remember reading A Tale of Two Cities when I was a little girl and being so disturbed by the mob rule that emerged after the revolution, where everyone who had anything at all to do with the nobility, including servants, were guilty, by association, or simply to assuage the emotions of the mob.

I watched the coverage of only one of these media circuses and was horrified by the people interviewed, the thirst for blood, regardless of the facts. Once Nancy Grace or one of her counterparts points the finger of blame, that's enough it seems, for many people. It makes me aware that the syndrome that caused the aftermath of the French Revolution, never really went away.

The Founding Fathers were wise to leave a framework within which we could work, to ensure that the emotions of the mob, would not determine the outcome of a case, that facts rather than emotion, would prevail. But it's apparently a very fragile thing we are trying to preserve ~ sadly.

[femmedem]

329. Regarding higher goals and potentials.

There are an awful lot of us, both men and women, whose jobs don't have much relationship to our potential.

Now these are just questions,and I'm throwing them out there to open discussion:

Is an exotic dancer using less of his or her potential than a retail clerk? A soldier? An adjunct faculty member? An actor? A construction worker? A waittress? An insurance salesperson? An executive assistant? A stock market analyst? An athlete?

What sort of potential is it most important to reach? Intellectual? Physical? Emotional? Spiritual? Ethical? Relational? Something else? Could it be different for different people? Could it be a balance of all the above? If a woman doesn't feel challenged by her job, does it follow that she isn't reaching her potential?

I've said in other posts that dancing stretched me in all sorts of ways. But what about the freedom it gave me to reach my potential by pursuing other interests, because I only had to work one night a week?

I'll admit, it wasn't as intellectually challenging as when I taught at a small college. But then again, teaching as an adjunct faculty member didn't, because of the hours I put in, pay even minimum wage.

And I enjoyed being campaign manager of the local Green party candidates. But then again, that didn't pay the bills, either.

I'm not encouraging anyone to be a dancer. For some people, maybe most, it would feel demeaning. But for me, it usually didn't.

[bettyellen]

226. "sometimes Jonny raped Suzy because he got excited and lost his mind."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x957110

post 309
i was a little too disgusted to respond.

[Neil Lisst]

255. the language is broader you define it

Even if your name is Webster and you own a dictionary, you don't get to decide what is and isn't "rape" in this society. Everyone who uses the word gets to decide.

[bettyellen]

266. this poster was defining rape- in a way our society disagrees with

just pointing that out.
have no time to waste on your BS semantics though. :hi:

[Neil Lisst]

268. fortunately, the lexicon is in safe hands

And I'm pointing that out. It means what society perceives it to mean.

[BoneDaddy]

323. I hear what you are saying

But so far I have received only a couple of responses regarding this supposed minority of DUers who justify rape. I mean out of 80,000 registered posters, a couple certainly do not represent a minority. In fact, it would be considered statistically negligible. I was more referring to the people who condemned people like myself who were urging caution and intellectual honesty instead of reacting from the gut about a situation that seems to be more complicated by the day.

There is no excuse for rape, plain and simple. I am hardcore on issue of murder, rape and violence and think that people who do these crimes need a helluva lot more time in jail than they are currently receiving. Because this subject, by it's very nature, is so emotionally charged and has alot of power with alot of people, we need to be extra cautious about some of the conclusions people reach on these boards and to actually read what people write before they are lumped into the very few individuals who either are: 1. Mentally ill 2. Freeper trolls trying to stir the pot 3. Attention seekers or whatever who claim that rape is sex.

[bettyellen]

325. i think it's a few and you have described them pretty accurately....

it is frightening to hear a guy say, hey they just wanted sex really really badly- and that's all there is to a rape. it's just overlooking- and minimising alot about the situation. and quite a few admittedly prefer the rapists' POV... scary, huh?
i truly think many are sticking to their guns, and using the words sex and rape interchangably, because there's a big overlap in thse who dislike being corrected and those that disrespect women.

[BoneDaddy]

328. agreed

For those who think like that, it truly is sad and disturbing.

[bedpanartist]

64. Of course, the same thing could be said

"For those of you who are quick to accept the accusastions of one before they have been proven in a court of law, come back and talk to me after YOU have been falsely accused.

That is all."

[jukes]

76. NOT a court

a discussion forum. we're expressing opinions, none of which will affect the outcome of any legal action resulting from the mentioned topic.

but feel free to judge me for it!

:rofl:

[KitchenWitch]

207. Bravo - you have missed the point completely

I was NOT talking about Dook. I was talking about rape in general.

[Ohio Joe]

66. Sometimes I don't understand...

Why people still have trouble getting this simple concept. I was under the impression this was common knowledge for many years, yet it always suprises me when people don't get it. Noone EVER asks to be violated this way, I don't care what the situation is.

I really enjoy going to strip clubs, watching the girls, getting lap dances, generaly having a good time. Yet, I have never once felt that a girl was 'asking for it', that she wanted a guy to force himself on her, that she wanted a guy to violate and harm her both physically and mentally. Never, not once.

[FlaGranny]

70. What makes ME sick

is all the people deciding guilt or innocence BEFORE A TRIAL. I never blame a victim and I don't consider rape to be sex, but I do consider all the "he's guilty" and "she's lying" talk to be absolutely disgusting. Presumption of innocence, anyone? If not, might as well go back to lynching - that worked well.

Remember Richard Jewell.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

84. what else are we supposed to talk about on an online forum?

besides one's guilt or innocence? It seems like a lot of posters have expressed doubt about the prosecutions case and then they get jumped on for not understanding the intricasies of sexual abuse. I don't see anything wrong with reviewing the facts of a case and then expressing one's opinion about the case's merit.

Besides, it's not like anything we say on this forum will matter one way or the other in this case. In fact, if anything it can help one gain a better understanding of the case by arguing it over with someone of the opposite view.

[FlaGranny]

135. I just hate seeing

trials outside of court without all the facts.

Had a friend accused of rape one time. He was "identified" by police and the victim. The trouble is he was identified as having a beard, when he was actually cleanshaven at the time of the rape. He had grown a beard, though, by the time of his arrest. He lost his livelihood and his reputation. The prosecutors weren't about to drop the case even though many friends, acquaintances, employees, business associates, etc., provided evidence that it could not have been him due to his appearance at the time and the fact he had an actual alibi for the time of the rape - working in his business with employees and customers as witnesses. My husband and I could have have been witnesses for his defense, as we could testify without a doubt that he did NOT have a beard at the time of the rape. He spent time in jail, had to come up with bond, and finally moved to another town, after a grand jury decided in his favor. All because of an "identification" by a victim. I think he sued for false arrest eventually, but lost track of him so I don't know how it turned out.

My soon to be husband was stopped for suspicion of rape one evening on the way home from my house years ago. He was handcuffed and held because he met the description of the rapist. Similar car, same height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes. Fortunately, the rape victim realized it was not him. Sometimes a victim can vehemently insist an accused person is guilty even when they are not. If she had not kept her wits about her, my husband would probably have a record as a rapist. Sometimes they don't get a very good look at their attacker. Both of these events were before DNA testing was available.

So, therefore, my experience tells me to remember my friend, my husband, and Richard Jewell.

[aikoaiko]

71. Respectfully, is it wrong to call rape sexual violence ?

I think there are numerous ways to emotionally and physically hurt someone. That some perpetrators specialize in hurting with or through sex organs cannot be dismissed.

I have not been raped, but have studied rape as a part of a Ph.D. program and it seems that deny that sex is a part of rape is to deny why rape is especially hurtful and traumatizing to victims.

[jukes]

78. OK

submit that as your thesis.

[aikoaiko]

81. Well if rape is just an act of violence then there should be no rape laws.

Because it would be considered just another types of physical assault no different in kind.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

92. Who talked about shooting in the head and slapping.

I see red herrings are a more sophisticated form "logic" for you.

I'm talking about rape. I believe rape is especially hurtful and traumatizing because it involves the sexuality of the victim and the perp.

Feel free to use the ignore list if you are incapable of reading a divergent opinion.

[jukes]

101. feel free

to make more inane posts.


"that deny that sex is a part of rape"



rape has nothing to do w/ sexual gratification. period. it is merely the expression used to dominate, subjugate, and control the victim.



i think you're trying, but have missed the point of this discussion. some are defending the crime, stating that sex-industry workers (such as strippers) invite the crime by inciting their attackers to uncontrollable lust. lust has nothing to do w/ rape.

i ignore no-one. it's GOOD to know who the true stupids are, and to steer the misguided back into the conversation. which are you?

o/c, you can "ignore" me if my responses are too painful for your sensibilities...

[porphyrian]

196. Anything you don't agree with is inane, stupid and misguided.

Great policy!

[jukes]

200. stalk someone else

you're definitely boring me, and i don't believe this is the proper milieu for you.

but go on thinking i'm a bad man. put me on ignore! i won't "ignore" you, 'cause i likes me some tombstone!

[porphyrian]

203. OK, I'll leave you alone.

Don't get your hopes up about a tombstone, though.

[Ms. Clio]

262. I think you make an excellent point

That's why the torturers in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib use sexual abuse and humiliation, because it reaches a different level of psychological pain and horror than non-sexualized physical abuse.

[file83]

172. It defies all logic to suggest that sex is 0% of any part of rape.

I agree with your points.

The word "sex" doesn't always mean "sexy" or "sexual appeal" or "lust", etc... especially not in the case of rape. Hell no. Of course not.

However, "sex" can be viewed from a purely biological perspective. Rape by DEFINITION includes sexual organs by either the victim or the rapist being violently manipulated and ALWAYS against the will of the victim.

To state this obvious point doesn't imply any judgements against the victim. Absolutley not. But to try and redefine rape as having nothing to do with the violent sexual behavior of the human animal rapist seems to obfuscate one of the root causes of rape. And misunderstanding the causes of rape helps no one in the attempt to battle it.

[porphyrian]

197. Thank you for your sanity. - n/t

[LostinVA]

204. It truly has nothing to do with sexual behavior

It is NOT one of the root causes of rape. Your post was compelling until I read that.

When people realize THIS, I believe legal and societal attitudes about rape may improve.

[file83]

216. How do you distinguish the act of rape from any other violent act?

[TheMadMonk]

288. I beg to differ. Rape is a successful evolutionary adaptation.

Or at least it was in the past.

Consider that for virtually all of our existence as modern humans, we have lived in communities of less than 300 individuals and indeed a great many of us still do. This number that is barely adequate for a healthy gene pool. Rape, when such communities come into conflict, is a way of increasing genetic diversity. And since it's the winners in such conflicts who do the raping and pillaging, it's their 'successful' genes which are spread.

I agree 100% that in the modern world there absolutely no place for such behaviour. However, it did have a biologically valid place in the not too distant past.

Please note: I am not excusing such behaviour. I am attempting to explain what I believe to be the evolutionary roots of that behaviour.

That said. The one thing that makes us human beings and not mindless animals is the ability of the vast majority of us to rise above the animal within us all. Those of us who demonstrate that they are unable to, or refuse to, rise above their animal selves, whether they rape, steal or simply destroy indiscriminately, should be culled from the herd.

[LostinVA]

302. We'll have to agree to disagree on this

[Cerridwen]

82. Equating rape with sex results in these type of "charges"

"Acts against the 18 victims were consolidated into one charge of aggravated assault, rather than 18 separate counts. And the acts were not considered sexual offenses because there was no sexual intent." (emphasis mine)

in response to

"The 18-year-old son of a high-ranking legislator admitted Monday to sticking broom handles and other objects in the rectums of campers he supervised last summer."

one of the links to this story: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=62466

I have (or had) several newspaper clippings from the early 90s in which a man was acquitted of rape because the eight year old girl was "sexually provocative" and "sexually mature for her age."

In another clip, a florida man was acquitted of rape because the woman he had raped had been wearing "sexy underwear." It was apparently dismissed that he (or anyone else, for that matter) wouldn't have been able to see her "sexy underwear" under her street clothes. But, since she was wearing it, she must obviously have been "cruising" for sex.

The fact that there are some in this world who receive some sort of "sexual" stimulation when watching or participating in acts of horrific brutality should, in my mind, never be a reason to dismiss brutality because it was "sexual" in nature. Did any of you here listen to the audio of the british soldier who was commenting on the beatings of iraqi boys? He sounded as though he was actually experiencing some "excitement" at the brutality of it all. Does that mean the iraqi boys were asking for it because their being beaten and brutalized "excited" some sick puke?

No, rape of any kind, coercive, date, accompanied by brutal assault, has nothing to do with sex. From the first story listed here, in one of the accused's own words "I was aware of and intended to insult them by subjecting them to an indignity, embarrassment, or humiliation".

Yeah, that's sexy alright.

edit: forgot to run spellcheck

[greyl]

90. "equating rape with sex"

To equate rape with sex is unfounded.

To assert that rape has nothing to do with sex may be unfounded as well. I haven't seen any evidence to support that extreme claim.

There's some undue conflation and confusion about the "sexiness" of a rape victim, the motivation of a rapist, and the definition of sex. Wouldn't discussion be better served by acknowledging that those are 3 distinct issues?

[Cerridwen]

99. In a perfect world, (here in the west)

sex would not have a stigma attached to it.

Were that the case, then yes, by all means let's discuss what causes sexual excitement in an individual. Let's discover the different forms of excitement and categorize those which are sexual and those which are induced by violence. The commonalities between and the differences of. What does sex look like when it's not commodified, stigmatized and brutalized?

In my previous post, I started to post about the notion that "fear is excitement without the breath." Two distinct emotions with similar physiological responses. Few, I think, confuse one with the other. Yet we frequently confuse emotions induced by a brutal act with emotions induced by sex.

In a perfect world, perhaps we could discover the different forms of "sexual" excitement. In the meantime...sex is taboo unless selling something or for procreation, except for "studly" men and never for women and lets not even talk about same sex or racially "mixed." I'm not sure I, or anyone actually, can define "healthy" sex or "healthy" sexual arousal.

Until the time we have valid information we gets to work with whats we got. And what we got is a society in which women who are raped are frequently stigmatized, demonized and vilified. And what about men who are raped? We haven't even begun to deal with that; perhaps because that might start to show that rape is a violent crime, used by men (most rapists are male) as a means to humiliate, control, punish, destroy, dishonor and/or demoralize a person or persons. Think of the use of rape to dishonor families and demoralize the enemy during wartime.

I wish I had an answer. I wish we lived in a "perfect" world. I wish sex and sexuality were honored or sacred or healthy or good.

I wish.

edit: forgot spellcheck

[greyl]

102. Nice thoughtful post, thanks.

:thumbsup:

[Cerridwen]

107. But, of course. Isn't that the reason for message boards?

Discussion and thoughtful dialogue with others of "a like mind?"

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know...s'just more of my wishing.

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

205. giggle -- not on these Duke threads, anyway!

[Lerkfish]

87. this almost sounds like you want people to get raped.

I know that's not what you meant, but that's how it struck me, even though I"m on your side in the argument.

[KitchenWitch]

212. Lerkfish - I truly do not want people to get raped

I just think some folks in our community could do with a lot more compassion and sensitivity for those of us (myself included) who have been sexually assaulted.

[Lerkfish]

275. agreed. I have certain ones in mind :)

I'm well aware of the trauma. My first wife was raped (long before I met her). Not a good thing for anyone to go through.

[0007]

104. Thank you KitchenWitch!

[dr.strangelove]

108. Hey Witch, I assume this is about the Duke thing.

Rape seems to present a paradox for many progressives. Some feel the need to defend the alleged perpetrators, others feel the need to abandon the "innocence until guilt is proved" standard in sexual assault and rape investigations.

I think both extremes are wrong. I am not about to compromise my belief in justice. I am glad the DA has taken this woman at her word and is investigating the matter via a grand jury. My initial thought on all rape/sexual abuse allegations are why would the alleged victim lie, therefore, there must be some truth to her allegations. Although I can rarely understand why a woman would falsely accuse a man/men of raping her, it has happened before and will probably happen in the future (I once was an attorney involved in a case where a woman did falsely accuse someone of rape, but later admitted it was a lie and got help she desperately needed. She was raped and routinely beaten, just not by the person she accused. She was actually raped by her husband).

As for this case, the grand jury seemed to find her story credible, so they issued formal charges. That is enough for me to give her allegations some weight, but not complete validity. Grand juries have brought charges on innocent people before. Like I said, I'm an attorney, and have worked a fair amount of indigent criminal defense. I have seen 100% innocent persons charged for crimes, and once saw what I believed was a 100% innocent person convicted of an assault and burglary (the worst day of my career, I was not the lawyer, just a court observer, but I feel the our system failed int his case and a innocent girl spent 5 years in prison because she would not roll on her boyfriend.) I know that, by far, most criminal allegations are based in truth, but the mere fact that even one innocent person may be charged is enough for me to stand up for the rights of the accused.

The paradox is for the rights of the victim. I have always said that the progressive movement's and the Dem Party's purpose is to give a voice to the voiceless. Here though, there are two people who are voiceless. Alleged victims of sexual abuse have little or no voice. They need someone to provide them with strength and to stand behind them. Likewise alleged perpetrators of rapes/sexual assaults are often thought to be guilty before the evidence is reviewed. Like I said, my initial reaction was why would this woman lie, so I am guilty of forming a negative opinion of these alleged perpetrators before even hearing the evidence. These people also need a voice to stand up and support them.

I believe there is room for both sides of this. Victims' Rights groups need help and are growing. A friend heads the National Crime Victim's Law Institute (Doug Beloof, check out the group at www.lclark.edu/org/ncvli/ ). People like Doug Beloof and this group help to ensure crime victims are given the support they need and have a voice in the justice system. These groups need more support. There are already dozens of great organizations protecting the rights of the accused, and these local criminal defense bars are the first line of defense for these people.

Overall, this matter, like any allegation of rape/sexual abuse, needs to develop. In the end, it will likely be clear that someone lied. Once that is clear, that person or people deserves all the hell they have coming to them. Rapists deserve the worst punishment our system can dish out, and false accusers should be convicted and punished as well. However once a person is alleged to have falsely accused someone, she becomes an alleged perpetrator and I would defend her to ensure her rights are protected. Like I said earlier, I once saw a case where a woman was the victim of rape or abuse from her husband/boyfriend 9not sure if they were married or just living together now that I think about it). She rationalized alleging someone else raped her in her own mind. She eventually told the truth and her husband plead guilty to sexual assault and several counts of battery. She also plead guilty to a misdemeanor of giving false information to police rather than felony perjury because she lacked the mental state due to her battered woman syndrome to have knowingly lied to the grand jury. She wound up getting put in a shelter and getting some help. I am not saying that this can be related in any way to the Duke situation, but it is merely an example of why the alleged victims of sex crimes and the alleged perpetrators should not be convicted or called a liar until the justice system is played to its conclusion.

Anyway, I agree Witch that to be cavalier about rape is flat out crazy. It is also insane to equate rape with sex and to propose that a person who strips or dances has in anyway consented to be raped. I am sorry that some DUers appear to be doing that. To speak out against an alleged victim of a crime is equally crazy. No one in their right mind would lie about these allegations. To convict someone of rape before the evidence is heard is also equally crazy. No one in their right mind would throw away an education at Duke to abuse an innocent woman. Obviously someone was not in their right mind, or is an otherwise bad person. Instead of jumping to a conclusion about any of the parties in this case, I will continue to lend my support both victim's rights groups and to indigent criminal defense work. I think both groups of people need strength and a voice to protect themselves.

My 2 cents, actually since this post was so long lets call it a even $.10.

[BoneDaddy]

119. Extremely well written

I couldn't have said it better myself....thank you.

[marions ghost]

130. I must

disagree with your assertion that "no one in their right mind would throw away an education at Duke to abuse an innocent woman."

----------------

1--but they would abuse a not-so-innocent woman perhaps? Why is "innocence" even used in your sentence unless you are suggesting that the victim is assumed to be a likely false accuser (statistics show this is very rare).

2--Rapes occur on college campuses every day of the week-- is any perpetrator really worried about it causing them to throw away an education?

3--Perhaps because rape is under-reported there are more people "not in their right mind" out there than we realize.

[dr.strangelove]

140. Its all about context

You cite the conclusion of a rather long post where I both reviewed why the two humans in the criminal process of a rape investigation and trial (the alleged victims of rape and the alleged perpetrator/s of the rape) are entitled to, and deserve, all the benefits of our legal system. I think often the victim is ignored, and I refer the readers of my post to an excellent source for information of victim's rights.

My concluding paragraph stated that no one in their right mind would make a false accusation of rape/sexual assault and also that no one in their right mind would throw away an education at Duke to abuse an innocent woman.

You made three points:
Why is "innocence" even used in your sentence unless you are suggesting that the victim is assumed to be a likely false accuser. I gather you did not read my whole thread since I spent a great deal of it discussing how alleged perpetrators deserve to be represented and protected from false accusations, which I know all to well are rare, but happen. That is generally the only way we defense attorneys can do our job. To assume that everyone of our potential clients may be innocent and deserve to have their guilt proven before we punish them. this means that both the alleged victim of the rape and the alleged perpetrator will need to give their side of what happened, and most often one of them is lying.

As to whether a perpetrator is really worried about the effects of their crime, no. Criminals know full well what they are doing. Your comment assumes guilt. While my comment was based on the assumption of innocence. However, when there is an accusation, it is nearly impossible for their to be two innocent people, therefore someone is likely being less than truthful.

I think it is clear that rape is under-reported because it is a violent crime that damages not just the physical person of the victim, but also the identity of the person. They often have such horror in trying to overcome the damage in the short term it is far easier to try to forge the event than to report it.

[marions ghost]

147. didnt address my points

--why would you describe her as "innocent woman" instead of simply "woman" --since a victim of an actual (proven) rape is assumed to be innocent?

--why would a rapist on a college campus be worried about jeopardizing his education? How many campus rapists ever face any repercussions? How many are "hushed up" with money or otherwise? (judging by Rape Crisis Center stats)

--Maybe the under-reporting of rape in general indicates that there are more deranged individuals out there than we realize, if being "in their right mind" is a criteria.

Therefore IMO "no one in their right mind would throw away an education to abuse an innocent woman." --is one of those logical-sounding arguments that really doesn't hold up when you look at it. But I know this is what defense lawyers specialize in.

Doesn't mean that the rest of what you said doesn't have some validity.

[dr.strangelove]

152. okay

I though I did address your points, but I will try again.

As to why would I refer to her as an "innocent woman" instead of simply "woman", I believe KitchenWitch, to whom I was responding, was making a simple comment on the recent trend in DU to attack the victim. I believe my use of the term innocent is appropriate given the context of the thread.

Criminals do not concern themselves with the consequences of their actions. In order to compare these men to other rapists who did not face repercussions one must assume that the allegations are true. To compare a man to someone else who actually commited a rape and did not face anything for it one would have to assume first that the man actually did the act. the alleged victim says the alleged perpetrators raped her, the alleged perpetrotrs say they did not. I was making a point that one of the two sides must be lying, but I would let the justice system figure out which. As for why would a rapist be worried about jeopardizing his education, he would not. I was commenting that it is not logical to assume guilt. If the person is guilty of the crime, then they would not be concerned with the loss of an education or the loss of freedom. Why would a rapist be worried about risking his freedom from prison, he would not. Why would a murderer be worried about jeopardizing his education or his freedom, he would not. These violent crimes do not usually involve what I would consider rational thought. That is my point. Either the parties were bad persons (which is my personal choice of words for criminals who know their activity and the results of it, but do it anyway), they were somehow not of sound mind or they are telling the truth and did not do what they are accused of. As for how many campus rapists ever face any repercussions, I have been involved with the defense of several convicted rapists/sexual assaulters. I know for a fact that rapists are convicted, due in large part to the courage of the victims to come forth.

On your comment that defense lawyers specialize in logical-sounding arguments that really doesn't hold up when you look at it, tells me a great deal about you. I now think so little of you that I have added you to my ignore list (you are only the seond DUer to make that list, so please take some pride in the offense you caused me with your comment on defense lawyers. You no doubt accomplished your goal of causing me a great deal of personal pain with you barbed comment.) I won't ever see your response to this, but feel free to say whatever you want back to me. Comments like yours are what is wrong with the defense of accused persons. Sorry that what I do bothers you so much. I take pride in being an important part of our judicial system. I don't get paid a penny for indigent criminal defense work, I do it as pro bono work and bust my ass to do it. I am fortunate enough to have a job where I can take on a few indigent cases and still pay the bills. I am sorry that someone who holds themself out as a progressive (at least I think the DU rules limit all postings to be progressive in nature) thinks so little of defense attorneys.

[marions ghost]

280. if criminals

"do not concern themselves with consequences" as u say

--then explain this sentence u also wrote:

"No one in their right mind would throw away an education at Duke to abuse an innocent woman."

--this sentence does not address the fact that there are so many rapes on campuses. It also assumes "right mind" would be operational when one is drunk or drugged. Looking at it another way, can we assume there are a large number of men on campuses who are not in their right minds today, who do not care about consequences of rape? OR should we also consider the "logical" argument that they do not concern themselves with consequences because there are so rarely consequences, and they may see their behavior as within the norm for male sexual conduct, especially when booze or drugs are involved?

(I am assuming that use of the subject "no one" means we are talking theoretically, not specifically about these lacrosse men).

-----------------------
Perhaps I was hard on (some) defense lawyers. But do you not agree that lawyers often make such "logical" statements to support their arguments that have little basis in fact --or which reconfigure facts in highly creative ways. These are intended to sway the Jury and it works. This is seen as the lawyer's job in court. I was under the impression that they take pride in this. Is my interpretation of what goes on in courts erroneous then? If so, (to whom it may concern) please say so. I just think that outside of court, there's a possibility for more honest research, not bound by often very arbitrary laws. Do you really argue that truth is a virtue in American courts, where the sole object is to win the case? Maybe you're not "that kind of lawyer." If not, don't take it personally. I profess that I am not deeply despondent that you just had to run after defending youself allowing no rebuttal. I will just have to get over that I am 'ignored' by a very defensive lawyer...

[bloom]

134. while that sounds very reasonable...

When you get to "No one in their right mind would throw away an education at Duke to abuse an innocent woman" is where you lost me.

While you could say that nobody is in their right mind who commits any crime (esp. violent ones) - there are ways to understand how this could have happened - if it did indeed happen as the victim said it did. And that is that the alleged rapists were getting away with this "sort of thing" (not necessarily this violent, perhaps) with no consequences and their sense of entitlement got out of control. (There were stories that suggested sexual assaults by the Lacrosse players were not that uncommon - but that they have not be prosecuted). Esp. in the presence of someone that they may have thought was of no account because of her job.

They are also part of society where images of violence against women are commonplace for those who want to see them - and these men did. "Ryan McFadyen's email to the team was a reference to the book and movie, "American Psycho" . Apparently, this was a bit of a cult favorite among Duke Lacrosse team members." see http://redstatefeminist.blogspot.com/ - Wednesday April 12 for more on that.

So unfortunately - I see the case the as a sad commentary on our society and what people will do and these boards can be a sad commentary on what people will defend. (And while I understand the men deserve a defense just like anybody - a lot of these threads have gone way beyond that).

[dr.strangelove]

144. You and another poster commented on that statement

"No one in their right mind would throw away an education at Duke to abuse an innocent woman". with two comments on that one sentence I can see that I did not achieve the message that I sought in the context of my entire statement. Though I think you should you reread that sentence as a part of that entire last paragraph of my post after reading my two replies to responses to my post, you may understand my thoughts better.

I took the position that both accuser and accused are innocent when I stated no one in their right mind would take an action knowing the conclusion that would take place. Clearly someone did that very thing, because if all parties were being truthful, it would not follow logic. Clearly someone was either "not in their right mind", or "was an otherwise bad person".

I will grant that my choice of using the most valuable thing the alleged perpetrator put as risk was their education, when their freedom from prison is clearly more valuable, says something about my subconscious belief about how this case will end (that they will not be going to prison but will be expelled - and this was not something I intended to say, but came out in my post - tricky thing controlling your feeling when you free type) it is nonetheless a statement that no one in their right mind would risk a valuable commodity unless they were either not in their right mind (and therefor unable to commit the crime alleged) or are a bad person (meaning someone who does harmful actions like rape and assault and deserves to be prosecuted).

On the appreciation of violence in our film and literature (and I think it is violence in general, or at least against gays, racial minorities, physically disabled or those not genetically given great physical gifts, not just violence against women that is available in our society for those who want to see it), it is indeed a a sad commentary on our society. However, I do not see it as a sad commentary on what people will defend. I have defended people accused of menial crimes like presenting a fake ID to a police officer up to violent crimes. All deserve a defense. More than deserve, I am obligated by law and by my morality to defend anyone accused of a crime. I will not waive this obligation due to the nature of a crime, regardless of how evil rape is. I have not yet defended a murderer, but I know that I will one day and will not have any problem doing it.

[bloom]

151. I expect you haven't read

as many of these threads as I have about all this and sometimes the offending posts get deleted, anyway - but as far as "a sad commentary on what people will defend" - I was referring to such posts that defend rapists because the women went to the frat house (and so she should have known better) and nonsense like that. (Someone the poster knew).

Comments that are really non-defensible. And if you ever defended a case with "logic" like that - I wouldn't think much of that either.

[dr.strangelove]

155. I don't know how many threads you have read, or I for that matter

I agree that it is a sad commentary to defend an assaulter by saying the victim asked for it due to her clothing, employment or any action she took. The only action she needed to take was to say no or ask themt o stop. Once she did so, any other action she took prior to that is not relevent to whether a criminal rape/sexual assault took place. As for whether I have ever used that defense, no I have not, and for the most part, the rules of evidence prohibit that defense. In fact the sexual history of the woman never gets in, and the situation itself only gets into evidence if it goes to whether there was consentual sex or a rape/sexual assault.

My post did comment that to be cavalier about rape is wrong and to propose that a person who strips or dances has consented to be raped is equally insane.

[TheMadMonk]

299. Whilst the rules of evidence may indeed prohibit...

the use of the "she was asking for it defence", some 'win at all costs' defence lawyers will spuriously raise the point in the hope of poisoning the mind of at least one juror against the victim.


Oh and please read all the posts, before agreeing with a post which puts words in people's mouths.

Virtually no-one has claimed that the victim was asking for it. What has been claimed is that the victims in some cases have unnecessarily placed themselves in positions of great risk without taking proper precautions. That is all anyone (or at least most of us) has said.

We lock our doors and windows. We don't run into biker bars waving winnning lottery tickets. We do not expect the law to be a 100% deterent to criminal behaviour in general. So why in the special case of sexual assault do folk get so bloody vocal and junk up and down screaming that the victim should not be expected to modify their behaviour in order to avoid being assaulted?

If people do take whatever reasonable precautions they can to avoid their (or their children in the event of the victim being a minor) from becoming victims of rape (or any crime for that matter), bent lawyers will never get the opportunity to blame it on the victim. Indeed any attempt to do so is fairly likely to poison the jury against the accused.

And further where no reasonable precautions could have prevented the assault, there would hopefully be less of the "well in some cases..." thinking going on in the minds of deliberating jurors.

[Catrina]

209. Could you please post a link to where someone defended the

rapist because of the behavior of the victim? I have seen this accusation numerous times and having been in most of the threads referred to, I have not once seen anyone defend a rapist, as you have just said. Maybe I missed it and if so, I will retract my statement that the sentiment was not expressed.

Thank you in advance. :-)

[bloom]

279. There was this:

"I did have a friend I took with me to a frat party back in my college days. She went upstairs with one of the guys to his room with the intention of having sex with him. She told me later that he invited one of his friends in the room for a turn with her. Was that "rape"? Yes. Is there any excuse for that behaviour from the men? No. But did my friend put herself in a situation leading to sexual assault? Absolutely. She made a conscious, if stupid, decision to go upstairs with said frat-boy."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=229x3934

[Catrina]

283. Thank you, but I don't see any defense of the men there. In fact, I see

a statement that clearly says there is no excuse for them or their behavior.

As far as the poster's opinion of the actions of her friend, I agree with them. That was a situation that could have been avoided. I have been with friends who made similar decisions. Even when warned that the 'men' were schmucks that should be avoided, sometimes people refuse to take the advice of those who care about them. That does not equate to defending the criminals in any way and I fail to understand why anyone thinks it does.

Would you advise your daughter or sister or mother to put herself in such a situation, or would you, out of concern, warn them to avoid such potentially dangerous situations?

[bloom]

286. he may have said

that there is no excuse - but I don't think he would have considered bringing it up except that he blamed the victim. As if any woman should know that you can't visit your boyfriend if he lives in a frat house.

If that is really the case - then women should not be allowed in frat houses - men should not be allowed in sorority houses - just like in the old days.

It is one thing to warn our daughters that there are a bunch of sick fucks out there who think that they can rape you if you date them (25%) or that they can expect to be gang-raped if they go to a frat (55% of gang rapes on college are at frats). But when people bring scenarios up and say - that She is the one who needs to change her behavior and not that frat guys should stop raping - that is blaming the victim.

And if a defense attorney suggested that it was her fault for being there or if victims were doubted because the women were at a club - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=964818&mesg_id=967685 - that is the fault of the defense attorney or the prosecutor and of society that all too quickly looks at the woman's behavior as something to be controlled - more than the mens.

[Catrina]

292. Well, I don't know. I think most decent people who are told that a woman

has been raped, would react with horror and disgust and anger at the perpetrator, which I think the poster in question would do, if that had been the only subject under discussion.

Parents, hearing of such horrors, naturally think of how to protect their own children from being the victims of such heinous crimes. In some instances, there is simply nothing the victim could have done that would have changed the circumstances that led to the crime. But in others, it is quite rational to point out how there might have something that could have been done that in the future, can be applied to minimize the possibility of others becoming victims. Not only do I see nothing wrong with this, I think it is helpful, and in many cases, using the experiences of others, has helped to avoid tragedy.

I don't think you are giving enough credit to people to be able to separate the actions of a criminal from the efforts to understand how such a monster can be avoided. I, eg, will be forever grateful that someone took the trouble to explain tactics that might work should a woman ever find herself in a dangerous situation, alone with a rapist. I'm glad they were not afraid that their analysis of other crimes might appear to be excusing the criminal. The result was that I and most likely other women, were empowered with knowledge that was probably life-saving.

To put it briefly, it is the recognition of the horror of the crime that causes the attempt to find ways to avoid it. If the poster were excusing the crime, he would not be attempting to find ways to avoid it.

[porphyrian]

123. Your need to disassociate the word "sex" from rape is your problem.

It is also preventing honest open discussion on the subject with you and other with the same problem.

[Liberal Dose]

148. If I smash your head in with a baseball bat, am I beating the crap out of

you, or am I playing baseball? Is it fair to call it a sports related crime? How about if I use a golf club to beat you? By your logic, I will HAVE TO somehow factor sports into the crime.

[ThomCat]

165. Very well said.

Using a penis as a weapon doesn't make it sex.

[porphyrian]

180. No, but that isn't always what rape entails.

I really don't understand the level of denial people are in about rape having a sexual element to some degree. Not always, and in varying amounts, but it's there.

[Liberal Dose]

307. Thank you for getting it. n/t

[porphyrian]

171. That's an awful metaphor.

You consider sex a team sport? What the fuck are you people on? If rape was merely violence, it wouldn't be called rape. Jesus, this is like arguing with a fucking vacuum.

[Cats Against Frist]

294. That is a TERRIBLE metaphor

and cuts to the heart of the very weary semantical problem, here. Of course "rape" is not "sex." But that doesn't mean that sexual gratification, a prior rape fetish, or a combo of BDSM, sexual gratification and the need to dominate aren't contributing factors to rape.

The problem we're having, here, porphyrian, is that there are an awful lot of people on this board who work in the sex industry, or who have been victimized, and who won't allow any intelligent discussion on this issue.

[porphyrian]

327. Well, thank you for being civil and not automatically attacking me.

I've claimed nothing other than rape is a combination of these things in differing degrees. On that, we're in agreement.

I think you and I feel differently about pornography, however, and the role it plays in rape. Without starting another fight (I swear, I'm not trying to), while I acknowledge that pornography can be degrading to women and that some of it does have violent imagery, I believe we disagree as to the percentages. I also feel it plays a much smaller role in misogynist attitudes than you do, at least, from what I've gleaned from some of your other posts. Allow me to explain my position.

I do not deny that pornography involves the objectification of women, any more than I would deny that there is violence on television and in movies. However, I feel that blaming pornography for rape is similar to blaming television or movies (or heavy metal music, or Dungeons & Dragons) for suicide or murder. I just don't buy it. Almost all men view (and probably masturbate to) pornography on a somewhat regular basis. Despite this, most men do not rape. Most men find rape unacceptable. People who commit rape are similar to people who commit suicide or murder in that they are insane. I don't mean this as a defense for rapists, I mean this to underline the fact that most people do not commit these crimes, despite the exposure to pornography, television and movies. No one suggests that barking dogs cause serial murder, yet that was what supposedly motivated the Son of Sam killer.

I think that, as others have suggested, people who are close to horrible crimes such as rape try so hard to make some sense of the experience where there may possibly be none at all that they start connecting dots that don't really connect, at least not in the way or to the degree these people come to believe. I don't know if this is the case with your opinions or not, and I'm not trying to project anything onto you that isn't there.

I believe repressive attitudes towards sexuality are far more damaging, are a much more likely cause of rape, than pornography. A number of the women I know are victims of incestuous rape. Most of them come from a very repressive conservative religious background. Every guy I know views pornography on a regular basis. None of them are rapists, all of them feel rape is unacceptable, and most of them (myself included) consider themselves feminists and/or egalitarians. I'm just saying.

Again, thanks for being open to real conversation on a serious issue. I hope that we can find an effective solution to the problem of rape in our lifetimes.

Edit: Moved the )

[Liberal Dose]

306. A baseball bat is designed for playing baseball. If I use it as a weapon,

it is no longer a baseball bat, it is a weapon. You don't want to understand the concept of rape as a nonsexual act of violence. It is now time to invoke the Goddess Ignorana upon you.

[porphyrian]

324. I think Ignoramus has already blessed you. - n/t

[KitchenWitch]

217. THANK YOU!!!!!!!

:applause:

:yourock:

[Liberal Dose]

308. You're welcome. THANK YOU for the original post.

:yourock: double. Triple. No, :yourock: to infinity.

[file83]

252. Nice spin there, you would make Bill O'Reilly proud.

You should know better than to use a false analogy like that. Shame on you.

[Liberal Dose]

305. Obviously you didn't understand the metaphor. n/t

[salin]

251. impossible to do - if the incident is a rape.

I want sex.

You indicate you don't want to have sex.

I want sex and am going to have it whether or not you want it. (By definition : FORCING the will and then violating the other person's body).

At the moment there is the decision that one's drive and desire to have sex is being thwarted by the other person, and the decision is made to FORCE the sex to happen - it becomes about power - and the act is violent.

My point is that at that moment it is as much about sex - as it is about dominating the other person who does not want to have it - and that is when rape stops being about sex and becomes about power (and violence to the victim).

It could be that initially the rapist is in it for sexual reasons - but once that line is crossed it is also mixed with power (to dominate, to force submission, not about something barely physical, or even something like punching someone in the nose - but about forcing part of one's body INTO another person's body who does not want that to happen. How is that not violent?)

[porphyrian]

267. You're just making your own definitions of the words.

I don't agree. If you want to believe that, more power to you. However, you should understand a few things.

1) Effective communication requires a COMMON vocabulary. You can't just apply your own meanings and restrictions to language and expect everyone else to follow suit.

2) This post is directly a result of another one on which the OP wanted to claim rape has nothing to do with sex, which I said is false and dishonest. A bunch of reactionaries, along with the OP, decided I had EQUATED rape with sex, which I hadn't, and then started calling me a rapist, a rape-enabler and a misogynist. So, both the OP's post and mine are a little emotionally charged from the brawl.

3) I don't mind people thinking I'm an asshole. I'm often blunt, especially when I know I'm right, and I like to call bullshit as I see it.

Again, for the record, rape does have sexual elements to varying degrees. Not always, not in the same measure necessarily, but it's dishonest to say that rape has nothing to do with sex.

[salin]

273. I acknowledge that - in the sense of the beginning of the

sequence of events - given the particular context. However, there is a point when if a rape occurs - there is far much more afoot than *just* a desire for sex. Personally, in many instances, I think it is not talking about this which allows rape to be such a frequent incident. In the moment, as I describe, it is possible that in the mind of the rapist it is still about sex - and the desire to "get it" even if/when it is clear that the other person does not want to have sex. I would also argue that at that point - the "desire" merges with a little rage/anger ala "how dare you deprive me from having sex... I am going to have sex ...." and at that point some anger/power issues merge in that allow the violence.

I would not equate what you wrote as simply rape = sex, unless you also disavow that once the act crosses consentual lines - and a decision to force it begins to merge power and violence with the motivation for the act. I think, if I read you correctly per the "degrees" (per motivation) that this might fit.

[porphyrian]

276. I believe we are in total agreement.

A refreshing change from most of my posts in the last 24 hours.

[salin]

282. Can't say I would be calm had I read the last 24 hours.

I am a survivor. It altered my life. There is so much denial/fear/shame that like many I tried to just power through life and not deal with the event that changed so many ways (though I was 'thinking' or 'aware' of the changes) - before I finally sought help to deal with it. Much stronger as a result - and understand what is me, and what were dysfunctional aftrmath behavior(and very common) coping mechanisms. I am deeply concerned that the incident of rape is as frequent to young women as it was when I was raped a while ago. Thus - I am sensitive to the intent of statements that lean towards a permissive view - mostly because there is something wrong in our society that the incident is still so high. I state that to explain that I understand the reactions. But when not already stoked - it is important for me to hear - as then the discussion can go further - write off? Agree but then be able to extend the discussion per the experience of the victim? But these threads have been hard - and i have not read many. A whole lot funky claims - including comparing rape (common) to false accusals (much more rare - but still very serious) as - 'accusal lasts forever while rape is just one night'. I know many survivors of rape and sexual assualt - but I don't know a single person for whom it was "just one night". Your post may have picked up on residual anger/frustration from posts like that which really do equate rape to sex (as if it is just the moment of the sex with no residual effects.) Just trying to put up some - late to the conversation perspective.

Btw that comment - of "just one night" - did send me over the edge. The complete minimization of the reality of the consequences experienced by those who have been raped was dehumanizing (if you had more residual effect you don't exist because there are none) and delegitamizing (as in... not a big deal - whiner...) Please recognize that in a society where 1 in 3 women are the victim of rape or sexual assault between the ages of 15 and 35 - that a whole lot of people are responding from personal experience... as in having been a victim - or being very close to a victim and seeing the devastation that follows. Hence the emotionality.

[porphyrian]

291. Thank you for the explanation.

Now that I am no longer "under attack," I can see what you're saying, and don't doubt that this is the case in at least some of the battles. I am well aware that little progress has been made in curbing rape for some time, and, as I am friends with a number of victims of rape, I am interested in stopping this trend. Part of my attempt to do so is to speak truthfully and openly about rape so that we might actually make some progress in stopping it. I reject the prevailant meme claiming that rape has nothing to do with sex as it is false and counterproductive to understanding and preventing rape (it hasn't done much to reduce the numbers yet). I'm sure I was too blunt in making that point for some.

[salin]

298. I apprecitate this conversation,

and could not have had it after reading the post I refered to earlier (as it spiked my reactions). I appreciate your receptiveness to the context from which I and others might have (in my case, though I had been "away" from the discussions, so I didn't) and have had per your framing.

This is where I would guess folks depart - and since we agreed earlier that we were on the same point... I think that it is important.

Some rapes are completely - from planning to start to finish - about violence, power and dominance.

Others start in from a more sex-oriented stand point... this could be mutual or one-sided, but the initial motivations for starting off the chain of events are about sex (be it mutually kissing, or akwardsly trying to kiss someone who doesn't want to be kissed). I think most folks would agree with this. Where the difference is what happens in the chain of events, and at the point where one person indicates no (strongly ... in my case both verbally and physically, to the more quiet - frozen in fear - small voice - still made (voice or action) but not quite as strongly, but where the person who started wanting sex moves into the "she says no... but since I want it, I know that really no means yes" to rationalize the next actions). In this point the act moves beyond sex and takes on a tone of power (because I want it, I either force it on you... or convince myself that while you don't admit it you must want it so I must force it on you...). Point is I bet the quibble isn't so much about how the action starts - but about what it is about when the actual act of rape occurs.

Reframing your argument - to look at stages, and how the dynamic changes at different stages of the incident, would probably open up far more open conversations.

Another point of advice - you may want to explain how you think the societal conversation would change (and I completely agree that it has failed!) - and why opening up this line of discussion may provide an avenue for altering our sad societal record.

I think that formulating those ideas and contextualizing them (per the sex vs power stages idea) could offer an invitation to an interesting conversations. Particularly to the issue of acquaintance/date rape.

[Strong Atheist]

138. As a guy, I used to worry about false accusations, but as I have

gotten older I have decided that that is unlikely... probably 99+% of reports are true, with some infinitesimal amount being some kind of "revenge" charge... therefore I overwhelmingly tend to believe the accuser these days, unless the evidence says to the contrary...

[noonwitch]

142. I have no comment on the Duke allegations, I'm disgusted with the media

I don't know whether the girl was raped or not, but the media is not the appropriate place to make that determination.

[dysfunctional press]

161. "date rape" is generally about sex.

at least from the male's point of view.

[lukasahero]

168. Wrong.

Date RAPE, even from a male's point of view, is about power - her power to say no to him and his power to not take no for an answer. You may think it's about "getting some" but when push comes to shove, it's about who has the power.

[file83]

174. If it's PURELY about "power" then why doesn't the male just...

...tie the girl up and do nothing else?

If it has NOTHING to do with any form of "sex", then why does he feel the need to force sex on the girl, why not just tie her up and verbally insult her?

The point is, it has to do with BOTH sex & power. Once you take the "sex" out of the equation, then it is no longer rape, it becomes something else. Like say, kidnapping.

Kidnapping has NOTHING to do with sex, unless of course, the reason for kidnapping is to isolate the victim so that rape can then occur.

[ThomCat]

182. The thing about power is that people feel the need to use it.

Power is about pushing limits and going as far as they can go without anyone being able to stop them. If you can tie someone up, that's not the limit. It's about what the rapist can do now that someone is helpless. It's about everything they can do and get away with.

That's why soldiers are well-known throughout history for raping the locals. It's not because they're sexually attracted to the locals. It's because they can, and because nobody can stop them. It's the rush of absolute power.

[dysfunctional press]

194. the soldier thing is a pretty bad analogy-

for the vast majority of the soldiers- it's not about power, it's about SEX. they're away from home, away from their wives and women, generally younger men with raging hormones. and you can bet that the most sexually attractive women got the most "interest"...it's SEX, not "power". i always find that whole "it's power, NOT sex" stuff completely laughable.

[ThomCat]

199. And you've spoken to lots of rapists and survivors?

Rapists themselves in interviews have said it's about the power. One famous quote was (I paraphrase from memory) "It could have been a man, a woman or a used car. It wasn't about who I was attracted to. It was about about who I can get my hands on."

Reports of mass rapes committed by soldiers includes many woman who are ancient and not at all attractive, so are you saying that their young soldiers are attracted to senior citizens?

The idea that Rape is just sex is what is laughable, and it's almost always expressed by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

[dysfunctional press]

201. you're deluding yourself-

so those japanese soldiers lined up for those korean "comfort women" to take their turn at exercising power....

riiiight....:eyes:

and yes- when armies come in, senior citizens get raped too- because there generally aren't enough young & pretty ones to go around. so the soldiers farther down the pecking order take what they can get- then they close their eyes and think of someone young and pretty.

you may not like the idea- but it's the truth.

[ThomCat]

228. Yes, of course you're the authority.

I should bow to your obvious superior intellect and knowledge.

[dysfunctional press]

249. and i accept-

graciously.

:hi:

[file83]

227. No one said "rape is just sex" - we're just refuting the claim that...

...some people have made which is: "rape has nothing to do with sex".

You said it yourself that the soldiers aren't "attracted" to the people they rape - true. But then what is "getting it up" for them?

Answer: The Power.

It's the power that becomes a sick and twisted "aphrodisiac" that results in the violent sexual lashing out.

For "well adjusted" people, power is followed with a sense of responsibility. For mentally ill people, power is followed with a sense of sexual excitement (i.e. Abu-Ghuraib and all the sexually related abuses that occured there).

The "focus" of this (physical) sexual excitment isn't coming from the victim, it's coming from the power that the perpetrator discovers in themselves.

To ignore the twisted sexual component in the rapist/assaulter is to ignore the distinguishing characteristic between rape and every other form of violence.

[LostinVA]

218. No, it's a good analogy and you're wrong

Soldiers were specifically told to rape women because it degraded both them and their menfolk, and it showed who was the boss. It was not about a soldier scratching an itch -- that's what camp followers were for. The Romans even had special slings they used to hold the women of specific leaders -- so that they could be gang-raped while the conquered leaders watched. It was a punishment ritual, not a sex orgy. Boudicca's daughters were raped this way in front of her.

Military history is very interesting, esp. the societal aspects of it. Perhaps you can get a librarian to recommend some good books for you to read.

You are trying really, really hard to justify some types of rape. Why is that? I seriously would like to know. I could call up every male relative and male friend right now, and I KNOW none of them would say you were right. They would all be pretty damned appalled by me even asking them if they thought this way.

[dysfunctional press]

231. justify rape?

how so? - please give me the quotes where i "justify" (not "explain" there IS a big difference) rape.

and while things like the rape of leaders wives was done for a certain purpose-
the VAST MAJORITY of rape that occurs by an invading army is about the "grunts" getting their own sexual gratification. nothing more.

[LostinVA]

220. In Bosnia, they raped six-year-olds, they raped 86-year-olds

They raped men. It's control and power and degradation.

Thomcat is a guy, he gets it.

[dysfunctional press]

225. for some of the sicker ones, it might be-

but for the VAST MAJORITY of rape comitted by invading armies- it's about their own SEXUAL GRATIFICATION. i.e. "SEX"

maybe you need to invest in a dictionary.

[ThomCat]

233. You're quick to accuse people of ignorance

But you seem to be the one without any direct information.

Just a lot of theory you insist is right. Are you often certain about things you know nothing about?

Have you done the research to back up this claim about the vast majority of rapists?

Have you spoken to the many, many rape survivors who talk about how the rapist was far more interested in hurting them than in the sex, about how the sex was just part of the way he hurt them?

Buy a clue. They're cheap.

[dysfunctional press]

236. so are dictionaries.

invest in one-
you need it.

[ThomCat]

244. I have one, thank you.

I also have some knowledge and experience in this area. I've known and volunteered with many survirors of rape and sexual assault. I've actually spoken to a few rapists.

You keep believing that you know what you're talking about. Go back to reading your dictionary.

[LostinVA]

237. Thanks, Thom -- I put him on Ignore

I don't listen to rape apologists anymore... especially ones who like to make up their facts.

Hugs, my friend.

[ThomCat]

240. Right back at you. :)

:hug:

[file83]

257. LOL - "rape apologists". Wow. Just, Wow.

[LostinVA]

213. I was going to use the soldier/war analogy -- you beat me to it!

Because of societal taboos, etc., rape totally violates a woman. Sometimes is actually ENTERING your body and ripping you apart, and there's nothing you can do but submit. What else does that to a woman? Not a damned thing. That's why men often use objects, because that degrades and hurts a woman even more.

And, in many societies, a woman is labeled... just like she is is on DU.

THis is not a difficult concept, and is accepted by experts in the medical, legal, psychological fields.

Why are so many posters trying so hard to link rape with something normal and pleasant?

[ThomCat]

234. I can't speculate on that.

That would get my post deleted very quickly.

[LostinVA]

239. It was actually rhetorical, but I am very curious, and I expect

You would agree with what I think.

[dysfunctional press]

176. not at all-

you might like to think that, but it just isn't true. for a lot of adolescent males, whose hormones are on overdrive- all that consumes them is thoughts of sex (something about nature, and the drive to procreate and all...) -and yes... to them it's ALL about "getting some"...don't kid yourself.

[LostinVA]

221. No, you are so totally wrong -- getting some isn't rape

If they force someone, then it's not about "getting some" -- it's about raping someone.

Again: why are you so eager to justify rape? Because, that is totally what you are doing. Comparing rape to "getting some."

[dysfunctional press]

246. get a clue for christ sake-

or at least take a physiology class.

the vast majority of date rape is about sex. i don't understand why you think that's "justifying" it- it's just the facts.

how much time have you spent in your life as an adolescent male with raging hormones?

[ThomCat]

259. What physiology class did you take

that says date rape is about sex?

You're just making shit up.

[Samurai_Writer]

175. But the males point of view is the RAPIST's point of view

The 'male' who is in that scenario is a RAPIST. Of course rapists are going to think that rape is about sex. That's how they justify their crime.

Last year, when I was 44, I was date-raped. It happened in my house. My back was severely injured in the attack. He then started stalking me, telling me how I was 'his property' and he would come over anytime he wanted to 'have' me like the first time. I had to move 2000 miles away to get away from him.

To him, it was about having a woman to 'take' whenever he wanted. It was about control more than about the sex. It was about him being in a position of power over me. He got off on the fear he instilled more than the actual act.

Just because someone uses a penis to assault a woman, doesn't mean it is equated with sex. It means they are a bully and using their weapon of choice.

[dysfunctional press]

178. you didn't "have" to move 2000 miles- you chose to.

i would have chosen go to the police, and then to get some pepper spray and a gun.

and just because the guy is using his penis as a "weapon" (in the victim's opinion) it doesn't mean that it isn't about sex.

[Samurai_Writer]

181. Well, aren't you just the one with all the answers?

He was friends with the chief of police. Going to the police was not an option. He was a former pro football player who was idolized in that town. No one was going to stop him from doing whatever he wanted to me or any other woman. Yeah, I really had a 'choice' there.

So I guess we should all just ignore the victim's opinion. Yeah, I can see you're a real sympathetic type, but not to the victim's point of view.

My ignore list just seems to keep growing and growing on these threads.

[dysfunctional press]

184. you keep adding facts...

yes, it would probably be a little different story if he was friends with the chief of police-

but there are still options- and you still "chose" to move 2000 miles away.

some women will not be bullied, and WILL stand their ground- i've seen it.
and you'd be surprised how quickly idols can fall when the light of day is shone on them.

but your choice was to run away, and probably let the scumbag move onto another victim(s)...

that was your choice.
other women and victims make other choices.

but until women learn to stand up to the problem- it won't go away.
just my opinion.

[ThomCat]

260. So the problem with rapists

isn't that they are forcing themselves upon people, it's that women aren't standing up for themselves?

You're sick.

[LostinVA]

230. Do NOT explain yourself to these guys

I mean it. Do NOT let them pull you into their games. The hell with them. You don't have explaining to you, the sociopath who raped you does... as do these very frightening poster who are straining themselves to justify rape. WTF is up with them???

Peace and cyber hugs....

I had three people on Ignore before last week. Now I have about 40 or so. Isn't that telling re: what garbage has been posted lately.

[bloom]

185. I think it depends

on your definition of sex. If you define sex for yourself as rape - As apparently 25% of the men do - then you would see sex as rape, rape as sex, whatever.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=964302&mesg_id=968863


If you define sex as a mutual activity between people - then rape is never sex. It is either mutual or it isn't.


The point of this - is people need to stop defining rape as sex. It's pretty simple.

[dysfunctional press]

193. sex is a physical act-

some people seem to get too tied up in thinking that it's an "emotional" act- it isn't. you can call that mutual act "physical intimacy" or "making love" or whatever you want- but "sex" is simply the physical aspect- and whether people want to believe it or not- you can't really have rape(with a penis) without sex.

[bloom]

195. as other people have posted

there are a variety of ways to rape and they don't all involve sexual organs.

But they do involve power, control, humiliation and other things.


If people want to have sex without emotions that is their business - but it's not sex if they don't both agree to it. Then it's rape.

[dysfunctional press]

198. that's why i said "with a penis"

sex has NOTHING to do with agreement. "sex" has NOTHING to do with emotions- that would fall under the category of "intimacy". "sex" is a physical act- look it up.

btw- the people that rape with objects other than sexual organs- they're usually getting their own sexual gratification from/while doing so- so it's STILL about "sex".

[bloom]

219. It's like this

Say you have a 20 year old friend and he has forced his penis into 10 women after they said "no" - and he didn't take "no" for an answer. And let's just say that he hasn't had sex with any woman who consented to having sex.

He might say, "I've had sex with 10 women" - bragging to his friends and all.

I would say that he has not sex. I would say that he is a rapist. If he said that he had had sex - I would say that he doesn't know what sex is.

[dysfunctional press]

222. in illinois, there is no longer the crime of "rape"-

instead, the offeder is charged with "sexual assault"

so tell me, how can sexual assualt NOT involve a "sexual" assault???

i don't think you know just what "sex" is.
in your example, the guy DID "have sex" with 10 women- if you can't see that, you need to buy yourself a dictionary.

people can "have sex" with all sorts of things, from willing partners to inanimate objects- to animals- to unwilling human partners...and on and on.

[bloom]

235. well it's clear we are operating under different definitions then

Because if someone posted that he had had sex with 10 women (when people used to post stuff like that) - I would assume that they had had sex with 10 women who agreed to have sex with him.

And I wouldn't be thinking that anyone would be counting rapes as sex. And if did know that someone did - I would think he was lying.

And I am not making this assumption because I think everyone in the world is a good person. It's because this is the definition of sex that I go by.

[dysfunctional press]

238. it may be the definition you go by...

but most of the rest of the world likes to use the ACTUAL definitions.

[bloom]

242. I think I am the one in the majority here.

You and your friends - might have your own ideas.

[dysfunctional press]

247. not when "here" is in illinois.

and other states that no longer have the crime of "rape".

[greyl]

278. argumentum ad populum - bad logic. nt

[bloom]

289. When it comes to definitions

I think having a majority of people who use it the same way makes a difference.

For other matters of opinion - maybe not so much.



I think it's interesting if men and women think of the word differently.

as in my poll - Do you consider Rape to be Sex?


with 80 votes

10% - Yes (I'm a male and I consider rape to be sex)

6% - Yes (I'm a female and I consider rape to be sex)

28% - No (I'm a male and I do NOT consider rape to be sex)

56% - No (I'm a female and I do NOT consider rape to be sex)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=969884&mesg_id=969884

[greyl]

314. No, popular usage isn't the same as valid usage.

Language evolution is extremely complex and has few if any absolutes, but you'd be mistaken to equate to popular usage with most accurate, most efficient, or most useful usage.

Furthermore, it's no mystery that men and women tend to think of rape differently, but your poll question is not a good one.

[Moosepoop]

272. They changed the term from "rape" to "sexual assault" simply in order to

encompass more scenarios.

In the olden days, "rape" was narrowly defined to be only intercourse forced by a man upon a woman not his wife.
The rapist had to be a man, the victim had to be a woman, and she could not be his wife (forcing intercourse on one's wife was allowed).
The newer terms "sexual abuse" or "sexual assault" are being adopted to cover those situations where the victim may be male, or may be married to the perpetrator. The old definition of rape (penis forced into vagina of woman not one's wife) is still covered, of course, but now so are all the assaults that involve male victims, married-to-the-perp victims, and a whole host of offenses that aren't strictly penis-in-vagina.

This info was found on the website of an ILLINOIS attorney.
http://www.brianscrowley.com/FAQCriminal.shtml?ss=fln-faq-question.xsl

So it's not that there is "no longer the crime of rape" in Illinois. There most certainly is. That old definition has just been accompanied by additional acts being declared illegal and prosecutable, and the language in the penal code broadened to include them all.

[LostinVA]

232. Exactly -- which would mean he's a sociopath

Who doesn't think what he's doing is wrong anyway. So... ergo.

[Lerkfish]

277. I"m guessing you've never known a victim of domestic abuse, rape or

stalking. The police can't be everywhere.

[LostinVA]

224. That's completely right, Radfem... interesting how some on here

are going to great pains to justify rape as something normal and kinda fun... why is that?

[LostinVA]

206. Wrong -- date rape is rape, and rape is not about sex

I'm not being nasty, I'm being serious: what about this is so hard to understand? Rapists do not get to frame the argument.

[dysfunctional press]

211. wrong.

and i'm being just as serious. why is it that some people are so deluded...?

for instance- a lot of states, mine included don't even have the crime of "rape" anymore- it all falls under the category of "sexual assault"...so tell me- how does "sexual assault" NOT involve sex? it's right there in the name of the crime.

[bettyellen]

253. if a person can overlook the force issue- and insist it's about sex only

then they are a sociopath. they are sick.. and we don't allow sick people to define what's what in any situation they are involved in.
cause you see, their judgement has been shown to be pretty fucked up.
they don't get to define it as "raging hormones" and neither do you.

[TheMadMonk]

309. No one is overlooking the force issue...

Hell that is what makes the crime of rape a crime. Be that force overt physical violence, the threat thereof, blackmail, or a micky slipped into the victim's drink.

What many are doing is refusing to see the sexual component. To take a particularly greusom example (Was it Ted Bundy?) if the perpetrator masturbates whilst watching the life drain out of a ten year old girl there there is definitely a sexual component to the crime. A twisted, utterly braindfucked component, but a sexual component nonetheless. There's obviously some very, very screwy wiring in such a person's head, but one thing you can be sure of, is that at least some of those connections are to the sex centres of their brain.

Control and power are of course a big part of the issue, and in many many cases, beneath those, feelings of crushing inadeqaucy. This does not excuse a rapists behaviour, nothing does. It may however explain it and let us get a better understanding of why they are the way they are and hopefull in the fullness of time help us figure out how to intervene before a potential rapist crosses the line.

[bettyellen]

313. oh yes the person i posted to thinks often it'all about sex, not power .

QuestionAll (741 posts) Wed Apr-19-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #182
194. the soldier thing is a pretty bad analogy-

for the vast majority of the soldiers- it's not about power, it's about SEX. they're away from home, away from their wives and women, generally younger men with raging hormones. and you can bet that the most sexually attractive women got the most "interest"...it's SEX, not "power". i always find that whole "it's power, NOT sex" stuff completely laughable.

[greyl]

310. Rape is "sex only" is an indefensible position.

Hell, sex isn't even "sex only".
I understand that to the victim, rape isn't sex at all.
However, I haven't seen any evidence that rape has nothing to do with sex or that denying even the possibility that rape has sexual aspects is the best way to scientifically or socially address the issue.

[bettyellen]

312. that poster gave examples when he felt there was no domination or power

involved in certain rapes -- it was just purely about sex.
he made specific examples of soldiers raping because they were lonely, far from home.
he said it. not you guys who replied.

[bettyellen]

250. if the fella is a sociopath- then yeah, that's his POV

[LostinVA]

256. Yup, and rapists are sociopaths -- even "date" rapists

[dysfunctional press]

315. not necessarily-

a half-drunk in-experienced adolescent with raging hormones who misinterprets what he percieves as "signals" is not necessarily a socio-path.(btw- that's in no way to say that it's permissible behaviour)

blanket "absolute" statements are rarely accurate.

[bettyellen]

326. "misinterpets" ... nice.

yes or no is somehow not clear enough?
i thought you claimed you weren't a rape apologist?
looks pretty clear to me you are.

[ismnotwasm]

167. April is Sexual Assault Awareness month

Lovely isn't it?
I guess we're all aware now.
I was reading an interesting study done on rapists and non-rapists. The study found that watching a rape, did not arouse (based on erection) the rapist any more, or very little more, than the general population of non rapist males. It also did not find a significantly higher "preference" for rape in the rapist to obtain sex. Only one study, but interesting.

Many rapists have wives, families and "normal" sex. The average age of a rapist is 31.
The act of aggression and violence that is rape is related to sex only that sexual organs are used to commit the violence, and control the victim

Here is a website committed to stopping sexual assualt and incest, with links for help. If any woman or man reading any of these threads has been raped, or sexually assaulted, there is help, there are people who care!
http://www.rainn.org/about/index.html

I spent quite a bit of time looking up rape myths. He is one common summary:
http://www.rwu.edu/Campus+Life/Student+Services/Counseling+Center/Rape+Myths+and+Facts.htm

[bloom]

183. Who are these men?

"25% of men surveyed believed that rape was acceptable if: the woman asks the man out; or the man pays for the date"


And where do they get these ideas? It sounds like 25% of them think they can rape a date. Period. Like if he asked her out and SHE paid for it - why is that different from her asking him out? It's nuts.


If I ever get divorced/widowed - I'm not dating.

[ismnotwasm]

214. Interesting question, I looked at the citation

And it's from 1985. I'm wondering if it was a general survey of college students? And also if those statistics have changed. I meant to post what common myths are I've found on the the web. I think I'll look for something a little more up-to-date.
Edit, Ugh, I briefly looked around, and didn't find anything much better, at least as far as a college campus, although I haven't found that particular statistic.
http://smartersex.org/date_rape/staggering_stats.asp

[LostinVA]

243. You can go to a "Be Gay" ministry and become a lesbian

(am trying to make myself laugh instead of scream)

[rd_kent]

177. I am not quick to blame the victim, but also not quick to say it was rape.

One boy appearantly has an alibi, and if seems pretty airtight to me. THATS why I am not quick to condemn somebody of sucha serious charge like rape.


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&...

[LostinVA]

245. It's not airtight. He was there for at least 30 minutes

while the dancers were there. Hmmm... this is also the time frame were the photos are "missing."

And medical evidence shows the woman was raped. She is a rape victim regardless of anything else.

[rd_kent]

322. But this casts doubt on THIS guy!

And the last time I checked, in this country, one is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In my mind, this provides enough doubt that HE was involved.

[devilgrrl]

210. I wonder if male victims of rape are treated as harshly as women.

Or did they ASK FOR IT too! :sarcasm:

[ThomCat]

261. Unfortunately, they're treated just as poorly, just differently.

There's the whole thing about not being a man anymore, having become "someone's bitch."

There's no support, and often no belief that it's even possible. There are almost no services geared towards understanding and helping men who have been raped.

[devilgrrl]

270. I had figured as such...

if anything, they're probably treated worse. It's horrible. :-(

[Neil Lisst]

241. Questioning the accuser's story is not "blaming the victim"

Questioning the accuser's story is doing what any sane person should do, which is ask if the story and evidence mesh.

As to your definition of the word "rape," there is not unanimity on whether it is "sex." It's certainly not consensual sex or informed consent sex, and that is what matters.

This whole disagreement about terminology is typical of the language censors, who think language is what they say it is.

[gollygee]

248. Rape is not sex regardless of what the rapist thinks

sex is an act between two people and rape is an act done by one person to another person.

I don't doubt some rapists think they have a right to rape (because they think the woman is a tease or whatever) or that a lot of rapists get turned on by raping, or that a lot of rapists are physically attracted to their victims. But that doesn't make it sex.

[LostinVA]

258. Good post

[In_The_Wind]

284. Rape is aggression not sexuality. The victim is not at blame!

[butterfly77]

285. who ever is doing it ...

they can't help themself and they know damn well if the colors of the victim and accused were changed the accused would be guilty on day one in their minds. I don't know who is guilty or not but we all know there are lots of women of other races and plenty of them who are white who have stated that they strip and or are porn stars or what ever and no one blinks an eye. Due to the race of this girl she is a ghetto slut and whatever other name micheal savage and other pinned on her an cynthia mc kinney, even though mc kinney probably was partially wrong.

[BlueStorm]

287. My mom and sister were raped...

I never was, thank the Divine and I hope I never will.

My mom had an abortion as a result of the rape and she is still traumatized by it. Apparently it happened in a hotel room or something.

I have actually witnessed the hurt that my sister went through when she was raped. I remember walking downstairs and seeing her in the living room chair, crying, my mother trying to console her. I was told to walk to school.

I didn't know it at the time that she was raped but I was aware that something had happened to her. I do know that it wasn't reported.

It wasn't until about two years after the incident did she tell me what happened and I will never forget the empathy that I felt.

This blaming the victim because she "dressed a certain way to entice men, was a prostitute, etc. is don't mean jack. When someone is raped, men too, it is a violation not only of the body but of the soul and mind. It is a shattering of one's self-security and it takes many years to heal.

My sister has never gone to therapy for this, but I do wonder if she relives that moment either in her waking time or in her dreams.

Like I said, I never had the misfortune of being violated, though I have come close to it, so I do understand what it is like being the victim.

Blue

[DefenseLawyer]

290. Why is it always an either/or position on these issues?

There is rape. There is child molestation. They are terrible things. There are also people falsely accused of rape and falsely accused of child molesting. Those things are just as terrible. Pointing out the possibility that an accuser may be lying is not "blaming the victim". A person who brings a false accusation is not a victim. I have no opinion on the relative merit of the Duke case and it may very well be completely true, but I can tell you that not every accusation is true. I don't think it makes me anti-victim to accept that as a simple fact. It always seems that "victims advocates" feel like they are betraying victims if they even acknowledge the possibility that not all accusers are telling the truth. To me that is no more reasonable than some jerk saying "They all were asking for it". Why not look at each case on its own merit and accept the reality that not every accusation proves to be true?

[KitchenWitch]

300. Again, this thread is NOT about DOOK!

[greyl]

311. If this weren't a serious subject, I'd lol at that comment. nt

[treestar]

303. Exactly, it gets old being accused of this crap just because you

don't automatically believe the accuser. It's like a witch hunt. Just accuse someone of rape and that's enough. Baloney.

[LostinVA]

317. Why DON'T you believe the accuser? She isn't lying about being raped

She was indeed raped. All medical evidence shows that. Why do you autocratically not believe her? Only 2% of rape accusations are false. How about the other 98%? I don't understand the mindset that she's a liar,e specially when forensic evidence shows she was raped. Why don't you harness your outrage on hoping the true rapists are found and convicted, so they can no longer hurt women? It's getting old to many of us to have people call standing up for the victim a "witch hunt," etc. Take THAT outrage against the victim and put it toward the creeps on this board saying rape is sex, and violence against women is justified if you "want some" or are horny... or toward people calling a rape victim a liar, a prostitute, a skank because she's trying to improve her life and provide for her kids. Or towrds people saying she's resposnible for being raped, because she's a stripper.

But... that's too hard, isn't it? It's easier to come on here and cry "witchhunt" -- especially when this thread is about rape victims and societal attitudes... not Duke.

Rape is a very real problem in this country. Everyone should be educated about it. Rape hotlines can always use volunteers, and have excellent training programs.

[LostinVA]

316. Because there is medical evidence that this woman was raped

But yet all these posters started calling her a liar, a prostitute, a con artists, etc. Whomever raped her... she was raped. And, THAT is what the majority of us are upset about. It is blaming the victim, and smearing the vicrtim... because this woman is a victim. She was raped. That is what the ER forensic personnel state.

"Not every accusation is true." But approximately 98% ARE true, and false accusations are generally not done to strangers, but to someone known to the accuser. Many of us are also upset that soooooo many people on this board immediately jump on the 2%, instead of the 98%. The point has been made by other posters that in no other crime is the first thought: the victim is lying. The reality is that almost all accusations are true. Why can't you accept that reality? Especially since this woman was, indeed raped. What we should all be concerned about, as compassionate people and as citizens, is finding the rapists and getting them convicted.