Just had a freep encounter at 7-11.

[maveric]

This woman who drives an SDGE(San Diego Gas & Electric),truck was paying for cigarettes and yapping with the clerk. He (clerk),casually asks her "workin hard?" She explodes with "Some of us have to work to pay for those damn, lazy welfare people. Having all those kids and they expext me to pay for them....". The african american clerk looked annoyed as she was scanning the lottery scratcher window.
So here I am right behind her and I say. "I'd rather pay to help people that need it than to fund a war that was based on lies, and to pad Halliburton's no-bid, blank check contract, and tax-cuts for the rich and corporations. Thats 'corporate' welfare? Isnt it?"
Without making eye contact she yells "I dont have time to listen to this crap". Then I added "Your paying more for this war and 'corporate welfare, than you are for social welfare...". She tells me to be quiet, PUTS HER FINGERS IN HER EARS and chants "bullsht, bullshit, bullshit...".
They dont want to hear it! They are in DENIAL!
The clerk looked at her and shook his head saying "Some people like to be fucking stupid".

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. that's where they are right now

denial denial denial

[Ecumenist]

4. And Ayeshahaqqiqa...

Girl, it ain't a river in Egypt. It's a crying shame. someone needs to pimp-slap these types...

[Warpy]

38. Nobody has to

That overreaction was a defense mechanism. She knows she's wrong and she knows she's been played for a chump. She just doesn't want to admit it to YOU because she still holds out the irrational hope that somehow all this hideous bungling and miscalculation will turn out right.

It won't. Eventually she'll either flip or go postal. Her choice.

[Swamp Rat]

42. She and many other freeptards will go postal... on each other.

I can't wait! :bounce:

[The Doctor.]

87. Hmmm.... what do you think the right kind of catalyst

would be?

I don't mean the 'big news', but rather the sort of teenie weenie comment one could wield at just the right time in a room full of freepers that they will fall upon each-other over.

Just the right take on a topic... something that cannot draw fire to the issuer...


'Hmmmmmmmm......'

BTW Swamp Rat, my wife loves your work and wants to know how you do it... what tools you use to create your art.
PM me sometime.

[Swamp Rat]

88. More issues like illegal immigration?

Who really knows, but I'm really looking forward to the "Big Implosion" and the "GOP Cannibal Feast.":D :bounce:

Here's my gallery, in case y'all are interested:

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10002

As far as my fotovandalism, I use Adobe Photoshop Elements 3.0 for Mac OS X because I got it for free. If I could afford Adobe Creative Suite, I could take down the entire Lizard Empire on Earth! :D

[Catrina]

92. In a room full of freepers, just innocenlty ask these two questions:

Hey, what do you guys think of Bush's Immigration policies?

Oh, and do you think we were all too hard on him re the Dubai Port deal?

Then grab some :popcorn: and sit back and watch the fireworks ~ :rofl:


These two issues got dozens (some say hundreds but I think they always exaggerate) of freepers thrown off FR. It split them so badly, they turned on each other. Jimrob has been called a liberal, as well as Bush, the ultimate insult to a freeper!

[The Doctor.]

97. That is sooo sweet....

I'll be using that.

[AuntiBush]

100. Been Hearing that, too!

That * is a liberal in disguise, and they're disgusted by him saying he's an embarrassment to their party.

Tee-hee... Catrina, you're spot-on. Immigration and Dubai Port deal was the straw that is breaking his desert/oil-loving back.

:popcorn:

[Ecumenist]

44. I'll take "go postal" for 1000.00, Alex. eom

[Geoff R. Casavant]

53. Tell me about your name

I assume it's Hopi, am I correct? And what does it mean?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

86. Not Hopi. Arabic

It is two names put together. "Ayesha" means "woman" in Arabic, and "Haqqiqa" has the Arabic word for "Truth" within it.

[Ecumenist]

2. OMG...

I wonder how this woman is allowed out and about without a leash and supervision... CREEPY

[BOSSHOG]

3. The clerk is wise

"conservatives" certainly do like to be fucking stupid. They display their ignorance daily and proclaim their happiness as well; just as they are told to from the pulpit and from the radio.

[arcane1]

15. "ignorance is strength" n/t

[mtnester]

79. Agreed..the clerk's statement was the best part of the story

"some people just like to be stupid"

The sad part is I am of the firm belief that many people just like her are in positions of power and authority in this country, to the extent of having their fingers on the button (and making noise about using it)

Of all people Boss, I don't have to tell you at all about stupid people running government agencies.

[librechik]

5. That finger in the ears thing is popular among the freepi

really shows the level of rational discussion they are ready for, i.e., none

[Marr]

64. Covering the mouths of people who speak inconvenient truths, as well.

I've seen so many conservatives do that at demonstrations- and I've literally NEVER seen the other side do it. They try to cover the other person's mouth, or plug their own ears, etc., etc. It's part of a mindset.

[Inland]

6. $Six Billion/Month for Iraq. You could wallpaper all the welfare

mothers in the US with hundreds for six billion bucks.

[joeunderdog]

66. Repeat after me "$30,00 per taxpayer, $30,000 each, $30 fucken thou..."

Stops em cold every time. They don't have any idea about the math, just the mantras. Give em a mantra they can really hear...$30K, $30K.

Ask em how much the Pentagon spends per year ($400B+) vs the entire budget for K-12 schools ($34B) and they get a little silent.

You can almost hear the crickets revolting in their dusty little skulls.

:think:

[Turbineguy]

7. There was a time

when SDGE was one of the top rated local utilities in the country. Then the GOP de-regged and Enron blew into town.

Of course, there are idiots everywhere.

I'm waiting for some Bush sticker toting moran to complain about the price of gasoline when I fill up later today.

[babylonsister]

8. Good job, maveric. Judging from her reaction, you

'got' to her! :thumbsup:

[Mythsaje]

9. What's with the fingers in the ears thing...?

It's becoming all too common. Are these people mentally and emotionally five years old?

Sheesh.

[CrispyQ]

45. The week the media actually reported that Iraq had no WMD

my mother came to visit. Because she listens only to faux, she still beleived Iraq had WMD. When I told her that it was offically out that there were not WMD, she stuck her fingers in her ears & went "la la la la la."

You could have knocked me over with a feather to see that kind of childish behavior from a 66 year old woman. To this day my husband laughs when he recalls the expression on my face when she did that.

[Mythsaje]

49. You gotta wonder

are these people clinically insane? Brainwashed? What's their damage?

I just don't get it.

[Marr]

65. Like so?

[suziedemocrat]

91. This is clearly some sort of cult behavior!!!

Don't let messages from the outside in that might undo all of their brainwashing.

[Mythsaje]

106. Exactly!

That's what instantly popped into my head.

[TommyO]

109. Thank you, this was my first thought as well

[kestrel91316]

101. Yes. They are. And unfortunately they are allowed to vote.

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. Bizarre.

:crazy:

[skypilot]

11. "I don't have time to listen to this crap."

And yet she thought the clerk and everyone else within earshot had time to listen to her crap. Typical. Whatever happened to "fair and balanced"?

[Arkansas Granny]

41. It's only crap if you disagree with their version of truth.

[tatertop]

12. you were quick on the draw with the facts

You really put the maveric smackdown on her!

[maveric]

20. How much ya wanna bet that she has Rushbo on the truck radio?

And he was probably whining about welfare queens.

[MikeNearMcChord]

33. I would say so, but I forgive her

I was once like that. Funny many of them would have no problem giving money to Billionaire owners to build sports palaces, or give companies "Tax free Welfare" to locate their minimum wage jobs, but God forbid, if it goes to a family if the breadwinner is laid off for a long time:D

[geniph]

56. Hey, welcome to DU, neighbor

I'm just a bit north of McChord myself.

:hi:

[MikeNearMcChord]

71. Thanx to all of you,

:hi: I wasn't totally like that woman, it was just when I worked at a church food bank, I began to see more of these people(especially after the Boeing layoffs of '01-02), and some of them you can tell needed encouragement in accepting that aid, I guess I belonged to that church that did not get that memo from Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, you know the one that follows the teaching of "love thy neighbor". One thing I would say to Miss stick-in-ears, you better hope your job is not outsourced to a lower cost firm.(like some of the cable outlets)

[frylock]

59. so true..

welcome to the board, Mike. :hi:

[faithnotgreed]

60. were glad youre here mike - i am interested to know how you were

"once like that"

its good to know how people eventually listen to the truth and start thinking for themselves so any anecdote you want to share is much appreciated

peace

[Supersedeas]

13. identity politics -- their head would explode if they accepted the truth

[newspeak]

14. yeah, about a year ago

I had to wait to get my tires rotated and I'm sitting in the waiting room with about five other people. A young woman and I started talking about Iraq (she had been in the military) and how this war wasn't a good thing. This older woman started in about getting the terrorists (yadda yadda yadda), how Bush was protecting us--when I stated that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, she quickly walked away and stated she didn't want to hear it. It's ignorance, plain and simple. They don't want a healthy debate, because they're not well informed. If you go against their pre-existing beliefs, they run as fast as they can to the "Exit."

[fooj]

16. Can you believe this shit? She put her fingers in her ears?

What a petulant, idiotic child. Dredges of society...that's what they are.

[rniel]

17. Reminds me of the clip from a while back

The republican girl debating randy on one of the news channels and she sticks her fingers in her ears like "I'm not listening, I'm not listening"

Sounds just like that lady.

[feminazi]

19. Janet Parshall...I wish I could find the screenshot.

Anyone have it?

[FLSurfer]

47. This one?

I love it too.

[giant_robot]

70. Look! A freeper meetup!

[guinivere]

78. lol! I can't believe a grown woman stuffed her fingers in her ears.

Wow. Something you would expect from a 3 yr. old. :eyes:

I also find it funny that her spew wasn't "crap".


Good job, maveric. :thumbsup:

[CottonBear]

116. I saw her do it on live TV! I couldn't believe my eyes. n/t

[paparush]

18. That Sums up the Freeps...head in sand (or in ass)..fingers in ears...

LALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALALALA

[NotGivingUp]

21. EXCELLENT comeback maveric! Absolutely perfect!

Where the heck did these people come from anyway? I feel like we've been infiltrated by alien beings...and they're pretty scary!

[maveric]

27. I'm just so tired of hearing that the poor in this country are the blame..

for all of our ills. That liberals are enemies of America. Thats all "bullshit, bullsht, bullshit".
And I wont put my fingers in my ears either! I'll look them in the eye and tell them about "bullshit".

[MemphisTiger]

22. She is a moron to do it in a marked truck

Did you get the number on the truck and report her?

[underpants]

23. You say she was buying a lottery ticket huh?

:wow:

[maveric]

29. And Marlboros.

[Blue Belle]

61. Oooh, Lotto tickets and Marlboros - sounds like a busy afternoon!

She sounds classy! :eyes:

[klook]

82. That was my thought -- tax on people who're bad at math!! (n/t)

[warrens]

24. Some people like to be fucking stupid...explains the entire GOP thing...

Screeching a mantra sure beats thinking if you have shit for brains.

[apple_ridge]

25. My own conversation with a freeper.

I was talking to some buddies at a bar the other night about Iraq and the outing of V. Plame and this idiot comes in with "He outed her 3 years earlier in an article and she wasn't even working for the CIA anymore."

"He outed his own wife?"

"yup."

Then he went on about Saddam Hussein financing Al Quaeda.

I replied, "Please don't interject in to this conversation anymore because you don't know what the fk you're talking about."

He stormed off and we all chuckled. What a moran.

[cascadiance]

26. Was she buying gas there too?

You might also ask her if she's so concerned about her money supporting "librul stuff", that she should ask her self why she's getting gas from 7/11, which is a "blue" company, and that here in San Diego, they get their gas from Citgo, which is owned by Venezuela and Mr. Chavez. Maybe she won't show up and bother folks in that 7/11 again! :)

[maveric]

37. No but right across the street they wer changing the price #'s on the sign

to $2.95.
But thats probably the fault of Clinton, welfare queens and gays.

[kath]

95. Is 7-11 actually "blue"?

Did not know that.

[cascadiance]

102. Not a lot of money spent but BuyBlue.org does have them 84% blue

http://www.buyblue.org/node/2237/view/summary

With them getting their gas from Citgo, I either buy gas there or at Costco now in California. On the East Coast, you might want to get your gas from Hess gas stations (not present around here), which is a pretty good "blue" gas company over there.

[Cha]

28. Wow! That's Classic!

Poor San Diego is overrun with those types.

[maveric]

40. Its getting "bluer" as we speak.

I'm seeing more anti-bu$h and AAR bumper stickers all the time.

[cascadiance]

43. She's probably PO'd about 50th District election results!

and that two "libs" are now running to replace Cunningham! For folks like her, Bilbray isn't "conservative enough"! :P

[Cha]

51. I used to live in the 50th

District when I was in San Diego..please tell me more about their election results!

Is kaloogian still running?

[cascadiance]

52. It happened last week on the 11th...

Busby got around 44% of the vote. Bilbray was second at around 15.2% and Roach was third at 14.5%. Kaloogian finished back with around 7%, down from where he was earlier, probably because he couldn't tell the difference between Istanbul and Baghdad!... Roach may still try to run some way in June. Not clear if it would be just for the nomination or perhaps as a write-in for the special election runoff then too. He just released a "campaign ad" AFTER the election now that seems to be aimed at Bilbray.

[Cha]

54. Thank you! Looks like

the 50th District is on to the theocons!

Dare I hope?

[Zhade]

30. You and that clerk rule.

Nice!

[pat_k]

31. Belief people v. Knowledge people. . .

Posted the following over on Salon.

http://january6th.org/post_of_the_week.html

I have a theory that some people operate on belief, others operate on knowledge. Although I sometimes think of them as two distinct populations, people undoubtedly fall somewhere on a continuum. They may operate as belief people in some areas of their lives and knowledge people in others.

For knowledge people, things need to add up, beliefs are theories that are constantly being tested. They figure out how things fit together and fill in gaps as they seek to understand their world.

Belief people come to their beliefs by looking to others. They adopt conclusions and don't need to know the basis. Beliefs are beliefs, not theories. Belief people adopt a belief because people they identify with believe it. They are influenced by the beliefs of people that "cut to the chase." They are more likely to be influenced by people who accept and respect them as they are than people who look down on them.

"Knowledge people" are doomed to frustration when they try to influence "belief people" by giving them the information that would lead another knowledge person to reach some knowledge-based conclusion. A belief person doesn't adopt their beliefs in that way. They know what they know and arguing details with them does little to change that.

Certainly, some belief people may change their beliefs when enough information is thrown their way, but most don't budge until others around them do. When "everybody knows" something, they join right in. Doesn't matter what they believed yesterday, they just adopt the new beliefs.

When dealing with belief people, knowledge people need to learn to simply assert their conclusions with assurance. No need to muck up a general truth with qualifications. No need to provide the details that led them to their conclusion. Listen to Rush for a short time. You'll notice that he just spouts a series of conclusions. Whys and wherefores are rare.

Ever wondered why polls sometimes turn on a dime? I think those giant swings are belief people flipping. Beliefs can turn on a dime. There is no need to spend time reconstructing the basis to reach a new conclusion. When some critical mass is reached and enough people have adopted a belief, that belief spreads like wildfire.

There is enormous variation in how people process information and function in the world. Just like a person with a photographic memory has a hard time imagining how a person that forgets so much can function, a "knowledge person" has a hard time imagining what it is like to be a "belief person," and vice versa.

Both belief people and knowledge people can be led in the wrong direction through the manipulation of information or the dissemination of "everybody knows" propaganda. There are times that faith/confidence/belief serves us much better than analysis. For example, many looked at the evidence and concluded "you'll never get a senator to object on January 6." Others had confidence that it was possible, and so kept pushing.

Although I might find it useful to have a photographic memory, I would hope that those with photographic memories don't look down on those who do not. Unfortunately, knowledge people sometimes see belief people as obstinate or lazy knowledge people. As a consequence, they make unproductive negative judgments.

Belief people are what they are and trying to change them into knowledge people, or trying to figure out why they are belief people, or berating them for being belief people, is not helpful.

Whether or not this theory is true, it sure saves me a lot of frustration and grief. It also gives me hope. We don't need to inform or educate "everybody" -- we shouldn't even try. We can ignore misguided belief people. We just need to reach that critical mass and the misguided belief people will come around on their own.

Discussion of this post

[geniph]

57. That really hits the nail on the head

and explains a lot. Some of these folks literally cannot deal with having their worldview questioned or challenged AT ALL, to the point of reverting to infantile behavior.

Of course, for some of them, it isn't much of a reversion.

[pat_k]

76. links

In case you're interested, you'll find links to other posts in the discussion below in

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=967834&mesg_id=969492

[July]

62. This explains the GOP demonization of Democrats very well.

They make it hard for belief people to identify with Democrats by associating Democrats with the "wrong" side of hot button issues. Belief people let their emotions and intuitions (and the downside of them, especially fears and superstitions) help them decide which way to lean, so if a whole group of people is portrayed as godless or anti-prayer, anti-family, anti-flag/Pledge of Allegiance, the facts and the intellectual nuances of concepts such as separation of church and state, privacy rights, or freedom of speech will not be important to that "belief" person who takes it for granted that those who support prayer, faith, churches, the flag, patriotism, and traditional families are both like them and all in one party will automatically side with that party and won't even consider siding with the other.

I'm sure there are belief people who support other things, but given how the hot buttons focus on basic, commonly accepted (and often unquestioned) ideas about God, family, and country, it is almost inevitable that belief people will line up with those who claim they are the only ones who care about those ideas.

[pat_k]

73. "Belief people" are definitely vulnerable to fascist beliefs, but. . .

. . . I think belief people are found across the political spectrum.

From the discussion that followed that original post on Salon's TableTalk

Post #3623

. . .When beliefs are adopted because authority figures promote the belief, the whole process becomes "people-based." This is why belief people tend to attack a belief by attacking the people they view as the source, not the facts behind the belief.

The thing that varies so much are the people a belief person identifies as an authorities. There are positive and negative authority figures. They can adopt beliefs that are grounded in reality and beliefs that are not. Im my view, there are belief people across the political spectrum.

On the other hand, knowledge people are less likely to adopt beliefs and opinions that are at odds with reality, so very few knowledge people adopt political views that are at odds with reality, counter-productive, or just plain fascist.

Just because a vast majority of the members of the opposition are belief people, doesn't mean that all belief people are members of the opposition.

In case you're interested, here are some other posts from the belief people/knowledge people discussion.

• Post #3625 -- Franken v. Luther dialog with commentary (typical knowledge person v. belief person exchange (continues in Post #3626 and Post #3628)


• Post #3693 -- Using the "theory" to communicate more effectively.


• Post #3696 -- Stab at an operational definition


• Posts #3608, #3615, #3813 -- More on using the "theory" to deal more effectively with belief-people (or at least make the dealings less frustrating)

[July]

89. I agree that belief people can be found in all segments of society.

Your post got me thinking about the particular issue of the demonization of Democrats through hot buttons, though, and that's the thought I was developing. I'm pondering right now about belief people on our end of the political spectrum. I do believe that what you describe can be found anywhere people can be found, so we surely have some on our side. Help me out here, you've thought about this more than I have.

The concept is illuminating.

[pat_k]

93. Since they are across the board. . .

. . there's no particular set of beliefs that identifies someone as a belief person. They can pick up beliefs from anyone they identify with -- and the forces that bring people together are too various to generalize.

The same doesn't go for the "knowledge people." If the information they are aware of is mistaken or limited (and different social circles can have very different sets of "facts" floating around) knowledge people can draw erroneous conclusions, but the process by which they come to their beliefs tends to protect them from getting too far off the beaten track. As a consequence, you don't find many knowledge people in the reactionary-right.

Because the reactionary-right is almost exclusively populated by belief people, it can be difficult to tease out the attributes that are characteristic of belief people from attributers that may be peculiar to reactionaries, but are not actually "belief-people" characteristics.

Before getting too far into an analysis, I'd like to emphasize that the “belief people/knowledge people” theory is one I find useful in promoting more effective communication. Stripping it down to simple terms helps guide the selection of responses.

Since my focus has been on using the "theory" to define some "dos" and don'ts" for dealing with belief people who are on "the other side," I haven't actually given much though to "our" belief people.

The only time I find myself thinking "she/he's a belief person" is when the person is debating some issue. Belief people and knowledge people tend to have very characteristic ways of responding.

Not sure if it will help, but the commentary I added to a Luther-Franken dialog points out a few of those characteristics.

Sometimes belief people are amazingly easy to ID. A member of a little group I went out with occasionally actually said he didn't want to talk about a particular issue because one of the "usuals" wasn't there. I don't even think it struck him as odd that he didn't know what to think until he heard where X stood.)

One thing that seems to characterize belief people from across the spectrum is impatience. Irresponsibility is definitely another characteristic you see on the right, but I'm not sure that it's a belief-person characteristic.

The process of adopting ideas from other people rather than independent reasoning is at the core of being a belief person, so being people-focused is definitely associated with being a belief person. That is, belief people -- and therefore a vast majority of the right -- are focused on people, not ideas.

When things go wrong, they don't look for systematic forces that could be changed to prevent the wrong, they look for the wrong-doer to blame and punish. For example, instead of looking for systematic changes to prevent the exploitation of undocumented workers here, they focus on the perceived culprits -- the undocumented workers -- and say "send them home."

It is this focus on people that feeds the tendency to demonize those they believe are wrong.

People on the right often seem to be stuck at the Pre-Conventional stage of moral development -- i.e., Obedience and punishment orientation; Self-interest orientation. This tendency too is related to the tendency to focus on people rather than ideas.

Hope these observations help.

[July]

108. Thanks, it's a new way for me to look at people. Very interesting. nt

[Sydnie]

68. I think you nailed it quite well

It does appear to be as you described.

[pat_k]

74. Thanks! In case you're interested post #73 above includes links to . . .

other posts in the discussion of the belief people v. knowledge people "theory."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=967834&mesg_id=969492

[melissinha]

85. I confess I used to run on belief

I didn't operate on the knowledge plane... BUT at least I had the belief in liberal politics...

Believe me its an easy thing to do, but I think that my Republican friends steer clear of politics with me cause they know I am armed now.... I think it began when the whole Gannon thing was out....

[drm604]

96. Fascinating.

What you're saying really rings true, but I'm going to throw out a hypothesis here:

We are all belief people. (Bear with me here...) After all, we all have the same basic neurobiology, the same basic hardwiring in our brains. So what causes the apparent difference? The difference is that some of us, the so-called "knowledge people" (myself included) simply have a very strongly held belief in rational evaluation of the facts. We believe that belief by itself isn't enough. I know that it sounds contradictory but if you think about it, it makes sense (at least it does to me...). So, if this is correct, and if your idea about "critical mass" is correct, then we simply need to work toward bringing one particular belief to critical mass. Namely, the belief in rational evaluation.

Am I on to something here, or am I totally out in left field?

[pat_k]

104. Perhaps. . .

. . .but I'm not sure how you would go about instilling that belief -- or training people to transform their thinking so they could apply the belief in their lives.

The goal you suggest ("Teach/instill a belief in rational evaluation in more people") is a characteristic "knowledge person" solution that can be problematic.

Knowledge people firmly belief that they can solve problems by educating enough people about X or Y. Belief in the "education" solution produces communication strategies that involve shoveling information at people and expecting them to reach the "obvious" conclusions. The result is usually frustration ("why aren't we getting through?") and laments about people's "stupidity."

I'm also not sure about the premise -- that we all have the same basic hardwiring. There are many, many differences in how people interact with and learn about their world. And there are profoundly different skills that people bring to the table.

The best example for me is a friend of mine who has a photographic memory. As a child, he thought everyone remembered everything, just like he did. He was mystified when he learned this wasn't the case. It is basically impossible for him to imagine what things are like for all us "forgetters," but he accepts the notion that "people forget." He sees the effects of forgetting, and modifies his dealings with us accordingly. He doesn't walk around tearing his hair out, thinking "What's wrong with you? How can you have forgotten X?"

Just as he can't imagine what it's like to be a "forgetter," I can't fathom what it would be like to remember everything with crystal clarity.

When knowledge people accept the notion that the process by which belief-people come to their beliefs is different from their own, they can learn to deal with belief people as they are. No more tearing their hair out, thinking "What is wrong with you? The facts are undeniable! There is no other conclusion!"

I'd like to emphasize that the “belief people/knowledge people” theory is one I find useful in promoting more effective communication. I realize it is an oversimplified "theory" based more on observation than logic. Stripping it down to simple terms makes it more useful in guiding the selection of responses in specific situtions.

Of course, few people are functionally belief people or knowledge people in every area of their lives. It's a continuum. But, in specific situations one mode or the other dominates and observers can apply the "belief person" or "knowledge person" label to specific players.

Since the theory is an operational one, the origins of the observed behavior aren't actually of much concern. In some ways, it doesn't matter whether or not my little theory proves out. It is useful because it reduces frustration by removing certain expectations and makes dealing with belief people a lot less frustrating.

Only time will tell whether the shift in focus (i.e., ignore belief people and focus on reachable people who are not engaged or are just to the right of us) dictated by the theory makes good strategy.

[drm604]

110. But

if it is just a matter of enough people (a critical mass) forcefully and confidently stating a belief, then if enough people start advocating critical thinking then it really isn't a matter of education or of convincing people, they'll just follow the crowd. They may not have the skills but they may become more amenable to trying to gain them or at the very least to listening to logical arguments or taking their cue from those they view as critical thinkers - scientists, scholars, etc.

Maybe it's more a matter of popularizing a belief in the veracity of scientists, scholars, etc. It's not exactly an unusual belief in most of the world, and we only have a problem with it here because so much effort has been deliberately put into denigrating these types of authorities.

[pat_k]

113. Didn't say it wasn't possible. . .

Seeking to instill a general belief in reason would be beneficial, but when I try to figure out specific things I can do that would contribute to achieving the goal, or the specific changes that would follow from achieving the goal, things get fuzzy.

It is possible that people really are hardwired to fall somewhere on the leader (independent thinker) -- follower (looking to others for their beliefs) continuum.

It would certainly make sense in evolutionary terms. Being a follower carries a lower "cost" that gives them a certain advantage as long there's a decent leader around. Propaganda and life experience can undoubtedly shift the relative numbers in a population, but I would not be surprised if there are innate tendencies that are tough to overcome.

Although we should not refrain for taking action when success is doubtful, we do need to set priorities. For me, specific goals take precedence over more abstract or general goals.

To address the problems we face, we need to set very specific goals and figure out concrete actions to achieve those goals. The actions need to be actions that individuals and small groups can engage in. If our goal is to move a public official, we need to determine actions we are willing to take to help make it happen. If a group of people can't define specific action to achieve a desired change, then it's time to shift the focus to something they can PERSONALLY act to achieve.

The principle recommendation I take from the belief people v. knowledge people theory can be summarized as follows:

Ignore the belief people "way over there." If you're dealing with a friend, family member, or aquaintance, the theory can help you deal with them, but otherwise, "they" must be completely ignored. We can't worry about the names they call us, nothing. Ignore means ignore.

Instead of worrying about them, we do things that help to get the folks on "our side" on the same page. The process of "recruting people" is to go after the people who harbor specific, counterproductive beliefs that are just one step closer to the reactionary-right relative to ourselves. In this way, you make incremental, but tangible progress by pulling people who are close to you onto more productive ground and motivating them to do the same with the people who are one step away from them. And at the same time, people who are onto something that is even MORE productive may be tugging at you.

Eventually the process reaches a critical mass that starts sucking up belief people who are "way out there." (When a sense of "everybody knows" pervades, they just jump on board, no direct pressure required.)

In other words, it is more productive to go after the fruit that is within our reach.

A key part of this is identifying and challenging specific beliefs that are thwarting specific actions. The belief people v. knowledge people theory helps to shape different approaches to effectively challenge and target "belief people" and "knowledge people" who harbor the counter-productive beliefs.

A few examples:

Enforcing Our Right to Believable Elections

There are a number of poisonous notions that have enabled to fascists to steal election after election. When it comes to folding in the face of perverse legal authority, many on "our side" (who firmly believe they are anti-fascists) are the most damaging offenders. They tell us we are trapped and limited by the "letter of the law" (e.g., the margin of victory puts the election "outside the zone of litigation" or "they have all the judges"). They tell us we must find and correct enough "glitches" to change the result.

To effectively fight for trustworthy elections we must be properly armed. Fortunately, a few simple truths and moral principles are the only weapons we need to do battle with the assumptions that stand between us and our right to have confidence in the results of our elections. The following document describes and challenges a few of the most damaging notions:

For more on this see, http://january6th.org/stop_stolen_elections_now.html

Banishing the Fascist Fantasy of an American unitary authoritarian executive

WRT the so-called "theory" of unitary executive power, Yoo, Addington, Alito, and other adherents invoke their tortured interpretations and claims of legalistic complexity to deceive the American people into allowing their so-called "theories" into the "marketplace of ideas."

The first priority is to figure out things we can do o rescue the "neutrals" (e.g., journalists) and people on "our side," -- particularly those who have a big megaphone -- who have fallen into the trap.

For more on this, see http://january6th.org/reject-fascist-fantasy.html

Impeaching Bush-Cheney

Members of Congress and countless ordinary citizens -- even people who would like to see impeachment happen -- are trapped in silence or inaction by a set of erroneous beliefs. Once again, there are simple truths and moral principles that we can use to challenge those beliefs and motivate more people to take some sort of action.

http://january6th.org/impeachment-clobber-rationalizations.html

----------------------------------------------------------

Links to the above documents, and a couple others, can be found here:

http://january6th.org/drafts.html


We Don't Need a Movement -- We Just Need to MOVE !!

[ronnykmarshall]

32. Dear god!

She sounds like that Janet Parchell that Randi Rhodes debated.

Here's a tip .... make responces short, sweet and to the point. Not that you didn't do great.

Instead of sticking their fingers in their ears ... they'll a snappy comeback burning in their ears for days.

Trust me, I've gotten into plenty of bitch fights with m' homegirls and it WORKS.

[SeattleRob]

34. if ignorance is bliss

then the average freeper lives in paradise.


It's not surprising that this woman chose not to listen. People like her have too much of themselves and their personal identity invested in the fantasyland and lies of the freeper world. When you question those lies, you are in fact, questioning their very identity.

[KingFlorez]

35. They are such troublemakers

It's obvious she said that just to cause a scene. Then when the truth is spoken, she acts like a childish fool. I'm glad you told her though, freepers need to be put in their place.

[tulsakatz]

36. it's interesting that........

....she didn't have time to listen to your opinion but she had plenty of time to voice her own biased view............the guy only asked if she was working hard!!

[Mountainman]

39. It takes some effort to think for yourself and find the truth. It is much

easier to believe in the right wing propaganda.

[Raksha]

46. That clerk was right! Some people like to be fucking stupid

and beyond that, they actually WORK at it! After all, being stupid is "hard work." You have to wonder when (or if) the time will come when it's no longer worth the effort to maintain that level of stupidity.

[B Calm]

48. Had to listen to a truck driver on his CB radio today screaming

about all the black people on welfare. After calling him a damn racist, I asked him if he knew anybody that hires people and for him to put in a good word for the poor black people needing a job. The son of a bitch went off on me, and I turned the damn radio off..

[CrispyQ]

50. Kudos for you for speaking out

even if the numbskull didn't listen.

I am sick of hearing about welfare queens when corporate welfare is 4 times what social welfare is.

[Roland99]

55. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Reminds me of a friend's mom:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=964415&mesg_id=965686

[porphyrian]

58. Some people like to be fucking stupid, indeed. - n/t

[wicket]

63. Let me just say that....

:yourock: :D

:kick:

[Terran1212]

67. Welfare people always become some kind of target by the corporate parties

It was useful for Dems and Repubs (the corporate-controlled ones) to support welfare when the people demanded it, but later they become the targets themselves used to scar epeople

[arwalden]

69. Wow... That's Unbelievable!!

How come things like that never happen to ME? I'm overtly political, overtly gay, and I've NEVER had an encounter like that - not even when when visiting rural GA or PA.

Now, I've had discussions with people, but not crap like that. Some people have all the luck.

[B Calm]

72. Limbaugh today must have been talking about blacks

and the welfare state.

[donco6]

75. Made my day.

Smart clerk. Loved his comment.
And yours too, of course.

[proud patriot]

77. Well done patriot

:patriot:

[Shine]

80. She's obviously in that 30 some odd percent of Shrub supporters

who will support him even if he kills a kitten on national TV. :eyes:

like you said, they're in denial and they just don't want to hear it.

At least the clerk knew what was up.

[RobertSeattle]

81. Yep - being stupid makes life so much easier

Everything is black and white - no grey, no nuance, no complexity.

[Xenotime]

83. You just found *'s next press person.

[The Backlash Cometh]

84. Thank you for reminding me why I avoid my relatives.

[suziedemocrat]

90. TOO FUNNY!!!!

Cigarettes $2.75
Local Entertainment PRICELESS!!!!!

[grannylib]

94. Total denial - denial of facts, of morality, of reality, of decency,

of honor and honesty and integrity...
these people are completely out of touch.

[AuntiBush]

98. That Clerk Was Right-On!

They're not in denial. They're STUPID!

[KitchenWitch]

99. Totally proves my theory that ignorance is an active choice.

[PassingFair]

103. The whole "welfare cheat" thing is very much like...

the "lazy union worker" crap I hear about ALL THE TIME here, and I
live in MICHIGAN!

You're having a perfectly great conversation with a reasonably
intelligent (you THINK) person, and suddenly the lazy union
worker meme comes spewing out of them.

What the HELL?

I want to meet one of these "lazy" people who don't want to work.
Do you know that they routinely show up 4 hours late to work, refuse
to work, make TOO MUCH MONEY and CAN'T BE FIRED?

This is what is KILLING 'murica, my friends.
:sarcasm:

Anyone else BAFFLED by this attitude?

[DesertRat]

105. Wow

Great response! :yourock:

[Tsiyu]

107. I smoke but jeez Louise

Marlboros are close to $4 a pack around here.


30 days of Marlboros yields $120 dollars if she only smokes a pack a day.

Add lottery tickets at one a day and you've got another $30.


Now WHO is she working so hard for, who is wasting her hard-earned dollars?

:wtf:

[maveric]

111. SDGE, who allowed ENRON to jack energy costs in 2001.

A company that I'm sure got a huge tax break(corporate welfare).

[Mr_Spock]

112. "Some people like to be fucking stupid".

There's that willful ignorance we've come to expect from the righties - store clerk know it!

[orleans]

114. great post. n/t

[cain_7777]

115. Don't even waste your breathe on freepers.

Let me get this straight. Her arguement was sticking her fingers in her ears and repeating "bullshit." You have to be retarded to be a repuke, or christian but I consider them the same anyway.

[Coexist]

117. A lady who didn't like my anti-Bush bumpersticker had a meltdown today

in front of our local Blockbuster - she said, "what are you a stupid fucking idiot?" The silly thing was shaking and her voice was cracking she was so overcome by my little statement.

I smiled sweetly and said, "Nice mouth, are you a values voter?"

What a loon she was.

[maveric]

120. I actually enjoy watching them meltdown!

They seem to have a real problem with FACTS and REALITY!
Fuck em! I'm on my own little crusade to spread truth and piss off the delusional, willfully ignorant, freeps!

[0007]

118. Sounds normal to me.

[BiggJawn]

119. They have Rednecks in San Diego?

That woman sounds like she's from Indiana. wearing a tractor hat and a beer-gut, too?

[maveric]

121. East County, where I live, is full of them.

Mostly retired navy or navy dependants that have bought the line of shit and will praise their Prezinent for the duration.
San Diego proper is getting bluer all the time.

[Klukie]

122. Denial is the best word to decribe it.

I have had many conversations with my right wing sister inlaw and this is usually how she reacts. Although she says she doesn't pay any attention until election time, she knows that the media is liberal, and that she refuses to believe that Bush hyped intelligence to go to war. For someone who doesn't pay attention she has all the talking points on the tip of her tongue just waiting to be spewed. The sad thing is that she believes this way because it is exactly what her father believes. She says that her father is a good man,(good with finances, gives to charity, intelligent...) so why shouldn't she trust his judgement? I continue to try to encourage her to educate herself and make her own decisions, but so far no luck. I love her so I will continue on.