How come I can't say that I think the Duke boys are innocent

[Ava]

without being called a racist?

[fooj]

1. No worries...if you believe that the Duke boys are innocent...

it is YOUR RIGHT, correct?

Peace.

[AtomicKitten]

74. one would think an opinion would be honored on face value

however, those incapable of making a cohesive argument throw out epithets like "racist" and "freeper" to try to shut down discussion - it's my way or the highway, biotch - and then the piling on begins by those that think being wrong in numbers makes it right

Ps: I have no opinion on the Duke thing cuz it's a he said/she said thing until witnesses come forward, although charges filed indicate the prosecutor thinks he has something.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. You Can. The Only Ones That Would Call You Racist Are The

Zealots and extremists. (unless you gave reasons for why you thought they were innocent that were racist in nature, in which case the charges would be legitimate, but giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would backup why you felt they were innocent with honest deduction and opinion outside of any racist comments, then it would only be charged by zealots and extremists :) )

[Jacobin]

3. The ARE innocent

Unless and until they are proven guilty in court.

This is still an american justice system

[Lolivia]

59. No, they are PRESUMED innocent

until proven guilty. Whether they are actually innocent or not is a fact that operates independantly of the justice system. The justice system doesn't actually decide if they are innocent or not, it determines if there is enough evidence to find them guilty.

[saltpoint]

4. Remind your detractors that innocence is presumed under the

justice system of the nation.

[CatWoman]

5. why, exactly, does it make you a racist for thinking them

innocent?

If the evidence fits, they must acquit.

[Ava]

because

if i say they are innocent they will just say that i think that because she is a black woman and they are rich white frat boys. :shrug:

the truth is that i have seen ZERO pieces evidence that say they did rape her.

[CatWoman]

17. I'm a black woman, and I have serious doubts

about everyone involved in this mess.

But you must remember: we do not yet know the whole story.

[Arkansas Granny]

22. I'm with you. I'm not ready to make up my mind yet. I'll wait

until the facts are presented in court.

[Ava]

23. here is my opinion, i don't think they are guilty

but if they prove otherwise i will willingly change my opinion!

[TahitiNut]

77. Some folks seem to know all they want to know.

I have serious doubts about everyone involved in this mess, too. Even more, I have serious doubts that half of what the press is reporting has any truth in it. Over 90% of the trash I'm reading on DU has to do with WHO these people are and very little about WHAT happened. Then again, as a 'white guy' (whatever that means) I guess I'm not permitted to have doubts.
As for you, my dearest melon licker :blush: .... I wanna have your children!! :loveya: :yourock:
In over four years, everything you've posted (even when I disagree) makes me wanna hug you :hug: :hug: and carry your books.
(Shhh! Don't tell NSMA!) :evilgrin:

[oasis]

38. "ZERO" huh? Maybe they should put the district attorney on trial. (eom)

[tatertop]

6. Personally, I think The General Lee should be impounded

[CatWoman]

7. ROFL!!!

:rofl:

[smartvoter]

71. Ha! Literally LOL... nt

[Teaser]

8. Why think about them at all?

I have no opinion as to their actual (not legal) guilt or innocence. How can I? I don't have the facts.

[bluerum]

9. You don't indict fine college edumacated rich white boys

unless you got some damning evidence. I hate to think about what would have happened had the racial roles been reversed.

[Ecumenist]

10. Ava, I'm a black woman and

I don't see anything wrong with voicing your opinion. Frankly, although I believe something happened, I have to honest in saying that I have ALOT of questions about what went on, who was involved and etc. It's a free country and it's your right to say and think anything you want... I feel that it's the sign of dynamic mind..

[Ava]

16. thanks Ecumenist

I'm not sure because i don't know all the facts, but I don't think it was the Duke boys that raped her. I'm wondering if they was raped by someone else though.

[Warpy]

11. You're supposed to think they're innocent

Look at how much air time the DA has (none on national TV, his side is hastily presented by disinterested bobbleheads). Look at how much time the defense attorneys have had (plenty). Check out how the story is being slanted in favor of the defendants. You're just thinking what they want you to think.

More difficult is keeping an open mind. After all, rape can be accomplished by objects other than a penis and a penis can be put places other than a vagina. A woman who has been drugged (one of the claims) is not likely to ID her attackers perfectly.

I'm keeping an open mind about this one. The accuser has nothing to gain by bringing charges and everything to lose, including her livelihood.

Her attackers may walk only because she can't properly ID them. Is that the kind of thing you want from the justice system?

[miss_american_pie]

12. The Duke men are innocent until proven guilty in court.

[porphyrian]

13. It's not racist, but it's not fair.

Unless you have access to all the evidence in the case, you are just speculating. It isn't fair to judge people guilty before they even go on trial.

[Ava]

20. well no one's opinion is fair. opinions never are.

[porphyrian]

25. I don't think that's right.

Why can't an opinion be fair? Besides, I wasn't saying that opinions aren't fair, I was saying that condemning people before their trial, an action rather than an opinion, isn't fair. You can believe whatever you want (your opinion), but you have to acknowledge that you don't have all the evidence available to you to know whether or not what you believe is true.

[Ava]

26. an opinion can't be fair because it is an opinion.

you choose one side over the other and in some way it always end up being unfair.


opinions are about CHOOSING not fairness.

[porphyrian]

30. Opinions don't have to be oppositional.

You don't have to choose sides to have an opinion. I'm not saying all opinion is or has to be fair, I'm just saying an opinion can be.

[Ava]

32. well here is my opinion, i don't think they are guilty

but if they prove otherwise i will willingly change my opinion!

[porphyrian]

57. That's cool.

I don't have a problem with your opinion, and I'm not trying to control it. I just have a pet peeve about people deciding someone's guilt or innocence before they've even gone to trial, a disturbing trend fostered by our piece of shit corporate media.

[JVS]

14. Well look at the fucking car they drive!

Here's a better view

[cynatnite]

15. the accused is innocent until proven guilty...

but it doesn't mean the victim is lying either.

Make no judgments based on defense attorney leaks and corporate media.

edited because I was mistaken on my first post.

[Burma Jones]

18. Who's calling you a racist?

Just remember Tawana Brawley before hanging out a few Duke Guys (who do seem to be assholes, but being an asshole is legal) out to dry.....

[fishnfla]

19. When the U of Minn basketball players were accused of raping a white gal

in Madison Wisconsin back in the late 80's. Every racist I knew called them guilty and ready for the rope

[tularetom]

21. They are innocent until proven guilty

but so was OJ Simpson, Scott Peterson, Kobe Bryant, the Arubans in the Nartalie Holoway case, etc. etc. And yet the TV harpies like Nancy Grace, rita Foghorn and Greta von Facelift, had them all tried convicted sentenced and executed within days of the crime. They've been strangely silent in this case.

[Neil Lisst]

29. Nancy Grace is already building a gallows for them.

As usual, Hang Em High Grace never met a male defendant she didn't want to disembowel on the spot. She's psycho.

[dr.strangelove]

24. Those damn Duke boys are GUILTY as sin!!!

I don't need no sticking evidence to tell me they were guilty.



They were probably drunk on shine!



Don't have to a racist to know a bootlegger when you see one.

[WI_DEM]

45. And Boss Hogg knows it

[dr.strangelove]

61. I'll get you Jesse Duke, one day Daisy will be all mine

I'd still go for the classic. Catherine Bach!

[WI_DEM]

27. Everyone is considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law

and it's best to wait until the evidence is all out on the table.

[lastknowngood]

28. If you don't know flame bait when you see it I can't explain it to you

n/t

[Ava]

31. yes, but my question is a serious one

[bloom]

36. Did someone all you a racist?

Sounds like bullshit flamebait to me.

[Ava]

40. sure did

[oasis]

33. "ZERO pieces of evidence". Drunken, unruly, obnoxious behavior is not

an indicator. Why do you suppose they chose black women to entertain them?

[Ava]

35. drunken, unruly, obnoxious behavior is what hiring a stripper is all about

isn't it? :shrug:

being drunk, unruly, and obnoxious does not make you a rapist.

[oasis]

42. Where did you come up with "ZERO" evidence when the DA had enough

evidence to get a grand jury indictment?

[Ava]

43. well considering all the evidence that we've seen makes the duke boys seem

innocent, i think the "enough evidence" to get a grand jury indictiment was the pressure from the community.

[oasis]

53. So your ready to indict the grand jury for not doing its job? I see.

:crazy:Plenty of evidence against them, if we're using your standard.

[Beaverhausen]

76. I think the grand jury has seen more evidence than "we've seen"

Why don't we let the justice system decide this case?

And if you have an opinion, fine. But people will disagree with you. That's life.

[Zen Democrat]

34. Why would anyone say they were guilty OR innocent?

They are indicted and they'll stand trial. They may be convicted, they may be set free. It's absurd to prejudge this from anything you hear on the news.

Everybody had Michael Jackson in an orange jumpsuit -- until the jury found him innocent.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

37. They're just some good old boys.

Maybe they were a little rough, but they weren't meaning no harm. Sure, maybe they beat all the homosexuals they ever saw, but then again they've been in trouble with the law since the day they was born.

Now where'd I put my banjo.

[Ava]

39. exactly what i was talking about

this is what i was talking about when i said that if i state my opinion i am branded a racist!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Look, we've all seen the video...

In fact I've watched the footage over and over again way too much. It's pretty clear they were up to no good, but what jury's going to convict those two boys? In fact it seems like every time they surrender to authorities they're right back on the road agin.

[FredScuttle]

67. "OOOOOOOH....I'll get you Duke boys, coo-coo-coo!"

Shubmit to tha DNA taysts!

[dr.strangelove]

44. They were just makin their way before they really knew how

Not their fault Rosco and Enis are guilty of Duke profiling.

[no name no slogan]

75. Yeah. Too bad two of them are NE Elitists

Two of the boys went to exclusive prep schools in the northeast. Hardly the Inbred Jeds we're trying to make them out as.

[dr.strangelove]

82. To be honest, I know very little about the accused

I was just making a joke about the use of the term "Duke boys" in the OP. I doubt there are many moonshine runners in Duke University though, but I suppose its possible.

[izzie]

41. Until the jury comes in they are.

And they may be after the jury comes in also. And I am not a racist. This is how the law goes.

[Ksec]

46. It happened to me.

A few on here were saying they were guilty because they were white and priveledged. I asked why and was called every name in the book.

[Ava]

49. exactly my point!

[Bridget Burke]

47. Please post a link to the offensive message....

Why can't you fight it out in that thread?

[Ava]

48. it wasn't online or i would

[JetCityLiberal]

52. Your post makes it sound

like someone on DU called you racist.

[Ava]

55. well on DU i haven't been called i racist, but it has been implied

i'm talking about the real world though, not the internet.

[JetCityLiberal]

56. Who implied this on DU?

alert is your friend.

[Catherine Vincent]

50. So a stranger on the internets called you a racist.

You know that you're not, so you shouldn't worry about it. It could have been freeper trolls.

[medeak]

54. same reason I can't say McKinney punched a cop n/t

[Ava]

58. exactly, she punched a cop! what about saying that is racist?!?

:shrug:

[oasis]

60. "She punched a cop" you say? Where's your evidence? Double standard?

[medeak]

64. the news today

police report that she hit cop in chest with a "closed fist" all over CNN ect.

edited...found story

McKinney Report Mentions 'Closed Fist'

(CNSNews.com) - The official police report on Rep. Cynthia McKinney's clash with a Capitol Hill police officer says the congresswoman struck the officer "in his chest with closed fist," the Atlanta Journal Constitution reported. Officer Paul McKenna filed the report with his supervisors immediately after the March 29 incident, which McKinney blamed on racism. A grand jury will decide whether charges should be brought against McKinney

[oasis]

68. "News" is evidence now? What about the rape"news"? double standard.

[JetCityLiberal]

78. Well the Grand Jury did decide there was enough evidence

to indict these two men from Duke.

[Bridget Burke]

62. The white guys are innocent, the black woman is guilty....

Neither case has come to trial.

OK...

[JetCityLiberal]

73. I am not figuring that one out either n/t

[Ksec]

66. Here they come....Get ready for the twisting

Its funny watching them show up like clockwork

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

69. That was a pretty valid question.

How come the white boys get the luxury of presumption of innocence but the black woman doesn't?

Either that's textbook racism, or I've fallen into an alternate dimension.

[medeak]

70. them?

it's healthy to have an open mind. Not putting fingers in ears like freepers saying "la la la" when there might be some bad news.

[medeak]

72. btw Ava

good job on GD wink wink

[debbierlus]

63. How can any one say one way or another?

If you weren't there, you don't know.

It is hard enough to figure out, if you are on the jury. Let alone getting information second hand from the media!

[SeattleGirl]

65. I don't think you're being racist at all

It sounds to me, based on some of your other posts in this thread, that you opinion of these guys being innocent is based on what you see is a lack of evidence that points to their guilt. But you also said that if evidence comes out that they ARE, or likely COULD BE guilty, you are open to changing your opinion. Seems fair to me.

I have not really formed an opinion one way or the other, because I don't have enough information. I will wait and see what else comes out about this case. If they did rape this woman, then they should be punished as prescribed under the law. They should not get away with it because of their skin color or their social/economic status.

[dr.strangelove]

79. Right on SeattleGirl

Sadly I suspect their social/economic status will help them. They have a very good attorney who is playing the press like a concert pianist. It will be difficult to get a jury together who is not already familiar with the fact that the girl was a stripper who was drunk/high and came to the party with all the signs of physical abuse. This is what good lawyers do, but only because the State has very poor ethical guides on attorney conduct poisoning juries. I could not do this in my state.

By the way, ESPN has Kellen Clemens ranked as the fourth best QB in the draft and thinks he will go in the second round of the draft. Maybe he will be the Duck to break the Akili Smith curse. It seems every Duck QB drafted in recent memory has really sucked at the NFL level.

[stillcool]

80. Racist?...I wouldn't call it that...

maybe judgemental? or presumptuous? or gullible?

[gollygee]

81. I have no idea whether they're innocent

and I doubt this trial will clear things up for me.

I don't think they'll be convicted regardless of whether they did it. Too much money among those familie sfor lawyers, and the whole black stripper/white college boys thing will probably make the jury at least a bit biased. Without DNA evidence there isn't much chance of a conviction.

[Rabrrrrrr]

83. Because too many DUers never grew up to maturity,

and believe that certain crimes are worthy of calls of instant guilt, judge and juried in their own heads.

The same kind of bullshit that when the republicans/freepers do it, the DUers will call "foul", but when these immature psychologically fucked up DUers do it, it's okay (to them, that is; it's not okay by me, or other mature, grown up people, who believe that all people are innocent until proven guilty, even if they're white guys on a sports team accused of doing something to a black woman).

These same DUers would fucking EXPLODE if I or you made an automatic assumption of guilt if it were five black guys accused of raping one white woman.

IT's the DU/liberal immature double-standard - it's okay to pillory whites, men, and rich people in the same way that freeps and other fuckbags pillory blacks, hispanics, and women.

I think it's bullshit, but there you go. In the grand population of the world, sadly, most people never grow up, and most are ignorant shitbags.